Does the modern dating process and relationships quash mens individuality?

Ok_Cycle225 · 2024-05-28T12:50:59+00:00

As an autistic person I really hate the whole conformity thing when it comes to dating. I used to try to be accepted back in the day almost the point where I thought about getting tribal sleeve tattoos just because "it's what the cool badass guys do". I also went to the gym to lift weights even though I just didn't enjoy it. Because it was "just what men do". Go the gym, get tattoos, drink alcohol, watch football/soccer. All the 'normal heterosexual masculine man' stuff.

But in my late 20s I just accepted being myself. I hate going to the gym, I prefer just being skinny. I hate sports. I don't want tattoos. I don't care how people see me anymore. If they think I'm not a man then that's the way it is. I love being a sensitive person. I love looking after my cats and messing with my ant farms. I love feeding my tarantulas and watching them munching on their crickets (it's honestly fascinating). I love watching anime, reading manga, collecting Beyblades and playing video games. Or reading into the lore of LoTR or Halo. Someone like me I guess isn't normal in the eyes of society. But I don't want to pretend to be someone I am not.

And I guess that's the way it is.

AngeCruelle · 2024-05-28T04:11:22+00:00

Whilst women tend to be attracted to a far more narrow spectrum of masculine behaviour and personality types in men.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/face-facts/201905/womens-attraction-masculine-men-remains-open-question

Okay OP, I reviewed the second link you posted more thoroughly.

According to the article, the answer is inconclusive. The results are literally all over the place. Some studies have found that women living in more economically privileged environments have less of an affinity for masculine traits, others found the opposite. So at the end of the day we don't really have a definitive answer.

Something I do find interesting is that you seem to link autism to failure to conform to masculine behavior and personality. Autism has actually been theorized as "extreme male brain", in terms of lower empathy and preference for systems. So in some respects autistic men are actually considered more masculine than neurotypical men.

pg_throwaway · 2024-05-28T02:34:51+00:00

It seems like dating is just a giant big personality mould forcing unique men to suppress their individuality to fulfill the average women's much narrower sexually dimorphic preferences in male behaviour.

Honestly, it does seem that way. However, I will again go back to this being about the anglo-western perspective, as there are two additional factors to this:

I think normal women who aren't addicted to "hyper-masculinity" characatures in the west are actually much more OK with men who don't fit into the "standard model" of man. One of the rarely discussed reasons why men leaving the west is often great for their dating life, is that many non-western women don't actually aspire to date The Rock or Schwarzenegger during his glory days. Most non-western women think "6 6 6" is delusional and stupid and are totally happy with more feminine, more soft, more personality divergent men than western women are.
I think traditionalist / red pill intentionally exaggerate the importance of hyper-masculininty to women so they can police men to make them "conform" to the "red pill standard" of what they think men should act like. Men who don't fit the "red pill" mold but are successful with women anyways are a threat to the red pill ideology, so "red pill influencers" have to try and convince as many men to abandon their individuality and become the default, hyper-masc "red pill man".

VWGUYWV · 2024-05-28T13:37:25+00:00

Most things in society tend to decrease individuality

You’re constantly trying to please others for various reasons

The exceptions are people that make a living by being unique

Lift_and_Lurk · 2024-05-28T14:22:21+00:00

Ngl this all kinda sounds like a rant about being an autistic dude?

PhaedronGDR · 2024-05-28T02:45:57+00:00

Absolutely. It seems like since most men only experience meaningful dating success once they're above a certain threshold of social value (having a large social circle which gets you invited to mixed gender events with lots of eligible women, a popular/exciting/assertive personality or high status) and/or physical attractiveness (handsome face/tall/athletic build) since most dating starts online (dating apps, social media).

grown_folks_talkin · 2024-05-28T13:28:43+00:00

This is not new. PUA-types aside, being the most quirky unfiltered version of yourself has not usually led to high dating prospects.

I remember my luck going up substantially when blanding myself down a bit and not showing my quirkiness until well down the line, and this was pre-social media.

fakingandnotmakingit · 2024-05-28T03:34:17+00:00

Personally I subscribe to the belief that due to social and/or biological factors there's much much more variability in men than in women.

For example, men are more likely to be risk takers than women. On one hand that means men are more likely to take risks that pay off and end up with massive empires (see: bill gates, mark Zuckerberg)

On the other hand it also means that men are more likely to completely fail. I've heard about and known more NEET men than NEET women.

This is by no means exact there will be utter failures who are women and extremely smart risk taking women. But on average there are more men who are extremes.

So what does this mean?

Relationship forming in the modern world is about wants and not needs

Everyone had to get married in traditional societies. You were a complete failure if you didn't. And if you are a woman, probably destitute unless your parents were rich.

Now why will I get into a relationship that makes me less happy than I am?

I don't. And neither should you.

However let's go back to the "averages" we talked about previously.

What that means is that as you get to the extreme ends of the spectrum, the less likely you will find someone to pair up with on your level.

This isnt the whole 666 thing, which is exaggeration.

If we look at autism for example, the brightest markers of autism to the general public is the inability to socialise. And its also accepted theory that autistic women are better at "masking". This means that it's more evidently apparent at first glance that someone is autistic if they're male than female.

On the dating scene, this means that autistic men will have a higher chance of being off-putting than an autistic woman on a first impression.

It might also mean that because of that, there's less of them who can progress to the next stage of dating.

Now in my life, due to hanging out in need circles I've certainly met more than my share of people who might be autistic.

For the women, it manifests in me not being able to make conversation with them as much or by them talking about one thing too much.

At most my eyes glaze over.

In men, it has manifested in being demanding of what I do in their presence, questioning me on the smallest details and asking if I was a "real fan" and arguing with me if I chose to not play a game a certain way, and complaining about it very loudly if I don't want to engage with them a certain way.

This has gone from "tolerable" to "I don't want to even engage with this person at all"

I imagine this would stay the same on a dating scenario. Except worse

Solondthewookiee · 2024-05-28T03:02:29+00:00

Consider that men are far more variable in behaviour, personality types than women.

This says personality traits, not behavior.

Whilst women tend to be attracted to a far more narrow spectrum of masculine behaviour and personality types in men.

This does not say that.

Those who are unable to mask or remodel their unique behaviour like autistic men on the extreme end face higher rates of loneliness than autistic women.

"Interestingly, while Autistic women tended to have less sexual desire, they were more likely than autistic men to be in committed relationships"

This could also be explained by women caring more about social and emotional intelligence.

Generally, it seems like dating is just a giant big personality mould forcing the arguably the more individualistic gender to suppress significant to minor aspect of their individuality to conform to the average women's much narrower sexually dimorphic preferences and gendered expectations of male behaviour.

No, but that is absolutely what red pill tells men.

The data here does not support the claim that women all want a similar type of man and any empirical observation of actual people would easily debunk that claim. The mistake is believing if you aren't calibrated to be the the most generically attractive person possible, then you have no chance.

RosieBarb · 2024-05-28T03:02:49+00:00

"And lastly, do women undergo the same process of behavioural remoulding and suppression as men to fit desirable mens preferences?"

Yep, 100%

KayRay1994 · 2024-05-28T14:06:42+00:00

I think you’re looking at it in reverse. I think it’s more men caring less about women’s individuality than it is women quashing men’s individuality.

Men will straight up put up with so much for the sake of pussy, and because of that they’re willing to compromise on so much more.

Muscletov · 2024-05-28T10:33:16+00:00

And lastly, do women undergo the same process of behavioural remoulding and suppression as men to fit desirable mens preferences?

No, especially not nowadays. Women have become very aware of the fact that they have a lot of freedom regarding their behavior and can have a fulfilling sex/love life without catering to men's preferences to any meaningful extent. Our current western culture heavily contributes to this phenomenon. Examples include the glorification of combative attitudes in women, the degradation of women who do cater to men ("pick-me") or the fact that "work on your character"-advice is given almost exclusively to men.

Flightlessbirbz · 2024-05-28T11:51:15+00:00

So you’re talking about two separate things here - the pressure to conform to masculine stereotypes, and the pressure to “mask” autistic traits. And yes, I do think the dating process does exert pressure on men in both these ways. It also starts a lot earlier than that with broader societal pressures and bullying in school.

The only part I find a bit questionable is how many women actually prefer hypermasculine behavior in men, and how much of that is based on what men admire in other men. I would not argue that women don’t tend to prefer men who are on the masculine side in certain ways, but if you look at the male characters and celebrities women tend to obsess over vs the ones men do, the men’s favs tend to be a lot more stereotypically masculine. Think Thor vs Loki, Arnold Schwarzenegger vs Ryan Gosling. It’s not that a lot of women don’t like the hypermasculine guys too, but the less masculine ones also have a lot of female fans, while a guy almost has to be hypermasculine to gain widespread admiration from men.

do women undergo the same process of behavior remolding and suppression as men to fit desirable men’s preferences?

Definitely, and even earlier in life, which is probably a big part of the reason why women seem to have less variation in personality and fewer women are diagnosed as autistic.

MidoriEgg · 2024-05-28T15:28:31+00:00

This is kind of a catch 22, because yes I would agree that men who are outside the norm in ways that are deemed undesirable often have to quash their individuality and conform to be successful dating, I don’t know how that could be rectified without enforcing women to conform to an idea of equal dating that might go against their actual preferences.

I think society as a whole should be less punishing and more accepting towards people who are ~different~ in ways that might make people uncomfortable but aren’t actually harmful. But when it comes to dating it gets more complicated, because obviously you can’t force people to date those they don’t like.

student2839 · 2024-05-28T20:12:46+00:00

In the past, gender roles where much more enforced then today so idk what your talking about.

Green-Quantity1032 · 2024-05-29T00:24:10+00:00

The fact that men are more variable can only mean one thing -

Women's choice varies quite a bit, or else men wouldn't be that varied.

AngeCruelle · 2024-05-28T03:34:53+00:00

OP one of the links you cited explicitly suggests that the answer is "depends on culture and environment."

Living in a dangerous environment will quash individuality and the ability to pursue anything outside of conventional rugged masculinity in many ways, not just with regard to dating and relationships.

N-Zoth · 2024-05-28T03:08:09+00:00

Complete nonsense. Have you seen how popular K-pop boy bands are? Or the fictional male characters that get the most traction on Tumblr?

CalligrapherSimple39 · 2024-05-28T13:06:14+00:00

Only men who are too sacred to go outside are changing themselves and remolding their behaviours, because they watch youtube videos that are telling them to do so.

Women don't care about any of that stuff taught on youtube. Just look outside, plenty of average, below average men with loving girlfriends, wives and families.

Go outside for a bit. It's nice and friendly!

kongeriket · 2024-05-28T03:37:18+00:00

And lastly, do women undergo the same process of behavioural remoulding and suppression as men to fit desirable mens preferences?

Of course, lol. The flow of the process is different, but the outcome is remarkably similar.

It couldn't even be otherwise. Women are the gatekeepers of sex, but men are the gatekeepers of relationships. There would be no relationships if women wouldn't mould to fit men's preferences.

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superlurkage · 2024-05-29T15:45:35+00:00

Yes, because much of masculinity involves misogyny

BillyAnaconda · 2024-05-30T11:21:36+00:00

But women also have to (alot of the time) fake their personality so they don't feel masculine. I think this is a gender role problem, yes a lot of women still definitely support gender roles even if they say they don't, but so do lots of men here also. Basically we need to abolish gender norms so people can be free

Title	Does the modern dating process and relationships quash mens individuality?
Author	PiastriPs3
Upvotes	29
Comments	155
Date	May 28, 2024 2:24 AM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1d28ucl/does_the_modern_dating_process_and_relationships/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/does-the-modern-dating-process-and-relationships.1519755 https://theredarchive.com/post/1519755

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