Is masculinity fragile?

Princeso_Bubblegum · 2016-12-26T16:18:45+00:00

I just realized that I don't like the term fragile masculinity itself. While I agree with the concept, the presentation comes about as "lol look at these weak pathetic men worrying about masculinity," which just feeds back into toxic masculinity, as it isn't looking at how this behavior is problematic and hurts their self actuality, but how it makes them look like bitches to masculinity or something.

We should just call these phenomena part of toxic masculinity and call it a day.

monster_strapon · 2016-12-26T15:26:16+00:00

I think a real man doesn't really give a fuck if others see him as a "real man." Additionally, a real man doesn't even use the term "real man." I've never even heard this phrase IRL - definitely not among the guys I hang out with.

So yeah, bro culture hyper-masculinity is fragile - but I don't consider this real masculinity. I think true masculinity is embodied through behaviors and character rather than appearance.

watch_for_ice · 2016-12-26T16:02:40+00:00

The concept of masculinity was created by women in order to control men and keep them on a leash. Who would choose it for himself to need to comply to such high and ungrateful standards in order to be deemed worthy. All this talk about fragile masculinity is essentially only mocking men to get them to "man up" but this time as well-trained, obedient but aggressive pets for women.

markd315 · 2016-12-26T16:39:56+00:00

I think people in this thread are confusing masculine looks and strength with hyper-masculine ideology, which is a cancer upon our society.

I am fairly assertive, but non-aggressive and mildly spoken. I do not coerce, and I do not spread hate. I work for progressive causes. I don't take risks without assessing the pros and cons. I'm pretty sensitive towards the feelings of others.

I also dress casually and athletically and work out 4 times a week and I have the thighs of a norse god. Forsaking toxic masculinity does not imply femininity.

Electra_Cute · 2016-12-26T15:36:48+00:00

My experiences with these articles about fragile masculinity has been that they are just there to shit on men. If they actually wanted to help "liberate" men, they wouldn't do so by telling men how pathetic they are for conforming to societies standards. Imagine if MRAs started laughing at women and calling them fragile and weak, and said that it's for their own good.

Also, we still have the eternal double standard where feminists tell men not to conform, but are still just as attracted to hyper-masculine men.

VermiciousKnidzz · 2016-12-26T17:18:48+00:00

ive seen a trend of Red Pillers having masculinity so fragile that they put the responsibility on their wives

once in a while theres a Red Pill Wife thread congratulating themselves when they dont tell their husbands what to do, no matter how mundane and innocent it is. husbands that lose it when their wifes tell them what to do is fragile masculinity.

men whose masculinity is disturbed by women earning more than them is fragile masculinity.

once i had a roomate asking my girlfriend about her cross-stitching hobby and when she offered to teach him he said "ah, nah, that wouldnt be good for my masculinity." dudes that refrain from otherwise good experiences for fear of not being manly have fragile masculinity.

being afraid of being seen as anything other than a stubborn manly-man is fragile masculinity, especially when its to the point that you go to bizarre lengths in your day-to-day and rage at your partner when she disturbs that

edit: masculinity is also fragile in dudes that put so much effort into being stoic all the time. their entire identity is hanging on the thread of not acting like a human being with emotion and they put other men down for showing emotion. and then they blame feminism for men being told to "man up" all the time, but thats another debate...

masculinity being your basis of identity and confidence is just weird to me in general. im a dude but i dont have much interest in being masculine. some days i do, i guess. im more interested in just doing what i want as i feel like it. ha

PaperStreetVilla · 2016-12-26T15:45:51+00:00

i think it can be fragile, for some men. i don't know that the "male products" is quite an example since they do that for women too, but i suppose a different example (that i've seen in action even here) is makeup. a man can easily wear a little bit of foundation or concealer to cover up skin problems without it being noticeable, but there are men here that insist makeup is only an option for women, and that any man with even the slightest amount of makeup on will look like he's in drag. the mere suggestion gets these over-the-top claims and worries in response.

in the same vein, acting and theater (and the makeup and things involved) is probably something that they'd ridicule a man for if it was his profession, even though it requires quite a bit of skill and physical ability (and confidence, and charisma, and all the traits they think are so great and masculine otherwise). so yeah, i think some men do have fragile masculinity, and in many ways, it's sad. some are more resistant to it than others... but i look forward to reaching a point where no one cares and everyone just does what they want (within reason) without questioning the masculinity or femininity of the thing. it's an easier life for sure.

IamTheWalkingMenu · 2016-12-27T01:52:21+00:00

Well men have to learn it somehow. Isn't that what TRP is doing?? Standing in for all the Dads that didn't? I like them masculine personally but not violent, just really capable of it

EchoZeroEleven · 2016-12-26T19:07:05+00:00

Masculinity is fragile when it's owner is unproven and insecure.

This is troublesome, because the more one defends their masculinity, the more they are in danger of losing it.

Being afraid of being perceived as unmasculine, is very unmasculine.

Being unafraid of being perceived as unmasculine, is in fact masculine.

Electra_Cute · 2016-12-26T16:19:13+00:00

It's hard for the majority of men to be considered masculine.

The stereotype of a masculine man is someone who is tall, broad-shouldered, has a large frame, is aggressive, has low inhibition, takes risks and sleeps with many women.

Most of the things that define masculinity is genetically determined and completely out of your control. I'd even claim that masculinity is ascribed and can't be achieved.

For example, me being 5'5" means that I'll never be considered masculine, no matter what I try to do. I have a lot of masculine hobbies like boxing, grappling, weight lifting and marksmanship, and I'm entering the reserves this summer, but I'll never be as masculine as a man who is just large.

Some other toxic aspects of masculinity include the shaming of any emotional expression and the propensity to solve problems alone, both that lead to men having the larger suicide rate.

So to answer, yes masculinity is fragile. It's not an easy thing to acquire and maintain.

However, masculinity will still remain because women by and large reward masculinity with sex.

KrispyMcSockington · 2016-12-26T16:23:42+00:00

Masculinity is a social constructs, made up of both biological and social factors that. It seems like masculinity is not congenital, but rather something that is achieved

Masculinity is not a social construct. Considering certain activities to be more or less masculine is. Masculinity is only as fragile as the support men receive when they are not masculine. For example, if they suffer humiliation, social isolation and rejection for being different, you will bet men will not stray from activities and behaviors considered masculine.

This is unfortunately a failure on society for not providing men support when they are weak. Think domestic abuse, rape or even desiring a partner. In the first two instances there are barely any shelters or people refuse to believe it can happen to a man. In the last case, men have not been given the same leeway women have if they choose to abandon traditional gender roles. A woman working, wearing pants and a suit, being aggressive and even "liberating" her sexuality through promiscuity is seen as a step forward. In other words, doing the things men have done while shaming anyone who finds it unattractive.

Now think of a man being passive, wearing a dress or makeup as well as being sexually conservative. He may even want to be a stay at home dad or prefer women approach him. No man is offered the same freedom, especially not from women. So men now have to compete with women for masculinity and if they desire partners, cannot flip the script like women have.

Since they are not being encouraged or being rewarded sexually (as in women finding feminine behavior attractive) they cannot be anything but masculine and rigidly so. Women even talk about how men find their behavior bitchy or intimidating hence they cannot land a man, as if he is afraid of a real woman. But if she is not going to sleep with a feminine man, why shouod he have to desire a masculine woman, who may even introduce power struggles into the relationship?

If women want the traditionally masculine roles, they have to understand they are placing themselves and men into an awkward position unless they find feminine or passive men irresistible and are willing to take the lead on things like approaching and dates. Masculinity will continue to be fragile for as long as we push the narrative that men who are masculine or who behave that way are somehow a problem for women, and if we continue to punish men who do not fit the mold of what it means to be a man.

DucksCanDance · 2016-12-26T16:42:01+00:00

Saying ''no homo'', covering your Instagram in selfies (or even having Instagram for that matter unless you're literally a paid model/celebrity) or having your chest hair waxed are all examples of the degenerate sickness that is millennial social androgyny, but being moody, crazy and aggressive i.e. the things attributed to toxic masculinity, are not examples of male fragility or insecurity.

You could never imagine Genghis Khan with captured Chinese soldiers ready to burn them alive thinking ''woah jeez I had the fire prepared and everything, but I don't want to be seen as insecure, a mature warlord who is confident in himself would let these enemy soldiers go, just to show everyone how much he's not scared of other people.''

intothekeep · 2016-12-26T17:44:30+00:00

Boys and girls are fragile, men and women are not. There are a lot of children in adults bodies now a days.

DucksCanDance · 2016-12-26T18:08:43+00:00

"Fragile masculinity" is just the latest line of attack from feminists

q31 · 2016-12-26T21:34:18+00:00

The classification of "masculine" is so subjective that it can't help but be fragile. If every person who is asked, "what is masculine", gives a slightly varied answer from the previous person asked, it can't help but be viewed as fragile, or even fleeting, yet many people struggle daily with looking more or less masculine. Creating disappointment, anxiety and confusion in the minds of many, perhaps millions, of people every day.

Maybe it's one of those words that we'd be better off, weeding out of the lexicon of daily life.

I guess to answer OP's question directly, I'd have to say, "yes, it is fragile. Since it's not a statically defined term and is mostly a dynamic representation of every individuals expectations of the word."

PaperStreetVilla · 2016-12-26T16:09:50+00:00

There is a lot of articles online about the frailty of masculinity.

written by women

The main point in a lot of these articles I read is that masculinity is a very narrow set of behaviours and if you do not conform to one of these behaviours you are not a "real man".

Implies men are pretending. also implies female judgement. draw a circle around things men do and you get a much better definition. though 7 is largely going away, I'd almost credit Milo Yanopolous for this, and other conservative gays. Men get to define masculinity.

Making "male versions" of beauty products, alcohol and even candles, so men do not feel feminine for using them

yes, women making ads, it's hard to interpret as anything but trying to convince men to fem-up

Making words such as "bromance" and saying "no homo" so they are not seen as gay

The fact that two men having any sort of close relationship is instantly seen by society as homosexual should give you pause. Men are fighting tooth and nail to maintain bonds with other men, little terms like this show our little ways of getting around shame for it.

Masculinity is a social constructs, made up of both biological and social factors that. It seems like masculinity is not congenital, but rather something that is achieved.

This is close to it. Men aren't intrinsic, they are made through achievement. Rites of manhood existed for a reason, my question for you. If you're right, what do you plan to do with this new 'wisdom?' I highly doubt it's to the betterment of men. In fact, over the past half century, women have gotten to define masculinity, and it's largely been a failure, up there with the USSRs western bloc

darksoldierk · 2016-12-26T17:21:00+00:00

Making male versions of products isn't about masculinity, it's about product preference. As a guy, I don't like using hygiene products that smell like roses, strawberries or whatever else. It isn't a masculinity thing, It's a "this smells so fucking terrible" kinda thing. In addition, a lot of the "female versions" of products have been marked up to ridiculous prices because women will pay those prices for that stuff. Why should I pay $30 for a bottle of shampoo just because women would? It isn't any different than having "Female versions" of razor blades. A razor blade is a razor blade whether you use it to shave your face or your legs. But women tend to buy the ones that are advertised for women. It isn't a "Fragile femininity" thing, it's a marketing thing .Women have also driven up the price of female razor blades because they refuse to use a a cheaper alternative. I switched to a double edge razor 2 years ago, it cost me $12 for 100 razors and the initial equipment was $35. Why? because it's ridiculous that I was being expected to pay $30 for 3 blades that last 4 months.

Using words like "bromance" and "no homo" isn't really a masculinity thing. As we all know, men and women can't really be friends. At some point one of the two will start having feelings for each other. Now that society has made being gay more acceptable, men are beginning to wonder if their the men around them are gay or if they have feelings for them. We don't want to lose our male friendships and we don't want to end up in a world where men can't be friends with each other similar to how men can't be friends with women. So the terms "bro" or "no homo" is like a wall that distinguishes a friendly comment from a romantic one. If women were more accepting of these kinds of phrases, maybe men and woman could become better friends

Masculinity may see frail in our modern world, but there is a reason. We are going through a major change. Women have decided to erase the line that separates masculinity and femininity. Masculinity is being attacked on all fronts. Something that breaks down when it is being attacked on all fronts isn't fragile. Masculinity has stood up fairly well considering that it has been antagoynized and treated as the "Boogyman" for the last 50 years.

GoldPisseR · 2016-12-26T18:17:34+00:00

No, confident men care nothing for the people's opinion of them.

Lady_Schmoobleydong · 2016-12-26T22:53:46+00:00

Standard masculinity, no. Hyper masculinity, yes. It's really easy to set yourself up for failure when you are forcing yourself to be hypermasculine. Men may feel the need to over compensate in an effort to feel less beta, using steroids is a good example. Character and behaviour is more indicative of healthy masculinity, allowing your male instincts to come through, without using them to intimidate women.

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sublimemongrel · 2016-12-26T15:29:44+00:00

I think the definition of masculinity as defined in the pussified literature and films of our day shows a lot of men to be insecure about almost everything at some point.

As far as masculine products - I like to use moisturizing body wash and things like that as much as anyone who likes their skin to not be dry. I prefer it without rose scent or some other BS. There is much to be said about a guy who smells clean rather than perfumed. If this makes me insecure... umm... ok.

[deleted] · 2016-12-26T17:17:30+00:00

Men are fragile not masculinity. I think some people are confused about what masculine values are. In some cases it is possible a man knows masculine values, but lacks the experience for proper application.

[deleted] · 2016-12-26T17:23:34+00:00

Kinda depends on how masculinity is taken. If it's adopted as some kind of ideological weapon to be used to "man-up" as a result of being treated poorly by the opposite sex, then it's not genuine and will generally be toxic to others. If it's just the result of someone's chosen values and discipline and is used for genuine self-improvement, then it's a good thing I would say. Anything taken to an ideological extreme becomes detached from the complexity of reality very quickly. Hard line masculinity AND femininity can do that to people.

Alth12 · 2016-12-26T17:59:02+00:00

Masculinity is seen as fragile because no one gives a clear universal answer on what it is and what it means. It will mean different things in different cultures and even to different individuals. But what is ignored is that goes for femininity too.

ifelsedowhile · 2016-12-26T18:48:13+00:00

technically certain aspects of masculinity can be toxic but I believe women are the major enforcerers of it with their mating preferences. this is something that women can't fully understand because they don't fully understand male sex desire and they naively think it's not really different from theirs. feminists have even their subservient male lapdogs reassuring them of their crazy notions.

ContrarianZ · 2016-12-26T19:08:20+00:00

The same could be said for femininity. Wearing makeup, shaving legs, avoiding playing certain sports, avoiding weights at the gym, you could also argue that these are a very narrow set of behaviors that women conform to in order to be a "lady".

Whether it is fragile or not is kind of irrelevant. Femininity and Masculinity both exist primarily to appeal to the opposite sex.

SexyMcSexington · 2016-12-26T21:16:51+00:00

There are a lot of articles online about the fragility of masculinity because attacking masculinity isn’t seen as an actual threat. Making fun of “bromance” and Old Spice commercials is merely a superficial attack that no one gives a shit about. Masculinity is partly based around stoicism: if 30-something harridan feminist rag writers need some drivel to get through their own crushing insecurities, who cares? Is that an actual threat, or just something to roll your eyes at?

Attacking femininity (at least in CURRENT YEAR) is seen as an actual threat that could damage its current form, so there is a lot of pushback. SJWs are not known for their tenacity.

throwinout · 2016-12-26T21:43:21+00:00

I don't understand the use of fragile to describe that, other than to of course demean men. Wouldn't rigid be the appropriate term?

But I would say that masculinity has high standards, while femininity doesn't. A man has to achieve to be masculine, and if he doesn't he is feminine. A woman who achieves also has masculine attributes attributed to her, perhaps due to a strong male figure in her. IMO a strong male figure is more important for achievement than a strong female figure, which could even hurt men and make them dominated by women.

Falkner1992 · 2016-12-26T21:55:50+00:00

I've said this before, and I'll say it again: the problem with masculinity isn't that it's fragile, it's that it's rigid.

ThorLives · 2016-12-26T23:31:13+00:00

Making words such as "bromance" and saying "no homo" so they are not seen as gay

Reading this, I couldn't help but think about an article I read recently that said that 65% of women wouldn't date a man who had slept with another man. Which makes you wonder if the "no homo" thing has it's origins in female revulsion towards the idea of dating a man who has been with another man.

[deleted] · 2016-12-27T00:48:38+00:00

Well fragile is language best suited to things that physically break easily. Like glass.

Since you're using a metaphor I guess you can say masculinity is fragile because its a narrow set of standards one can fall off from easily.

Another word you could use would be elite/prestigeous

Femininity is the same way so stop being a half dyke

despisedlove2 · 2016-12-27T01:58:23+00:00

You have fragile and unforgiving confused.

A man has to prove that he is a man, day in and day out. This examination starts with puberty, and ends with death. In every action, and thought, there are some litmus tests that need to be met. Everytime you face a situation of conflict. Everytime you chase a woman. Everytime you have sex. Fathering a child. Providing for family. Fighting for people that rely on you. Giving your word to a friend. This is also why men have to be generally more direct, honest, moral and reliable.

A woman simply has to show up, and in sexual situations, consent to have sex and spread her legs.

A man is known and celebrated for what he accomplishes and does.

A woman is known and celebrated for who she is.

Masculinity is deep, of enduring value and worth preserving. Its pinnacle usually corresponds to the pinnacle of a civilization.

You calling masculinity fragile is, to put it mildly, very ironic. However, insecure feminists projecting on others is both par for the course these days, and a sign that this society is in decline, possibly terminal decline.

Ryuutorak · 2016-12-27T02:44:06+00:00

Gender is fragile when people stop buying into it in greater numbers.

Ryuutorak · 2016-12-27T02:44:06+00:00

Gender is fragile when people stop buying into it in greater numbers.

gasparddelanuit · 2016-12-27T09:41:04+00:00

Masculinity is based in biology and is further conceptualized by thought and language, like practically every other expression of the human mind. It is not fragile or a social construct in the sense that it is a figment of the imagination, since it is grounded in biology and, therefore, will always be with us.

Masculinity simply refers to characteristics that tend to be found in higher levels in males, such as strength, aggression, abstract logic etc. Much of this has been established scientifically, even though you will obviously get a comparatively small amount of crossover.

gasparddelanuit · 2016-12-27T09:50:12+00:00

Masculinity is a social constructs, made up of both biological and social factors that. It seems like masculinity is not congenital, but rather something that is achieved.

The idea behind social constructs is that biological factors are not involved, so your statement does not make sense. If biology is involved (and it is), then masculinity is congenital in some respect and is not something one achieves, but is something one is.

5th_Law_of_Robotics · 2016-12-27T12:05:57+00:00

From what I've seen it's the other way. Women demand safe spaces, constant praise (mother is the hardest job evah), the denigration of men (your husband is retarded, buy our yogurt), and cry the hardest when they don't get it (see feminism).

If we're speaking relatively femininity is incredibly delicate.

daveofmars · 2016-12-27T14:53:38+00:00

Of course masculinity it not fragile - look at all the things men have done. Calling it fragile is projection on the part of the accuser. Femininity is seen as fragile. Just look at damsels in distress. White Knights coming to women's aid. Lumping in the adult women with children when the boat starts going down. That's all fragility and weakness, and that perception is why men want to distance themselves from it with their own products. I'm not saying any of the above is right or should be there, but it is what it is. If you're talking about the viewpoint of the typical normie, then it's femininity, not masculinity, that's fragile.

Ryuutorak · 2016-12-27T15:59:38+00:00

u/the_calibre_cat

PART 1 (cont in Replies)

I'm not going to respond to all four of your responses.

Definitely not-- it went really long. I really did start seeing your evaluation as a good learning experience.

First off, I can't really take that seriously. I identify as "purple pill," which is acknowledgement of the obvious, beaten-to-death Blue Pill axioms - I don't think gay and transgender people should be excommunicated from society, I don't think women should be forbidden from working/voting/owning property.

My issue is that perpetuating the current state of masculinity for males is not healthy, period.

TRP adds additional Dark Tetrad and call it 'a second enlightenment' kind of experience, and it's extremely toxic.

Purple Pill is better at this, but you still seem to be running the risk of leading TRP stuff into a feedback loop by pushing any notions of legitimacy.

Especially with the anti-leftist crap at the end here. Nothing's wrong with leftist or rightist inherently. They've both just been twisted once they've been politicized (taken beyond ideology and into tactics).

I just believe that rightism leads to more toxicity in large countries, and that (in my country) rightism is tied up in the Neoreaction movement which includes this weird mix of blatantly expousing Dark Tetrad as some kind of Thing People Can't Control, while also doubling-back and admonishing others for expressing Dark Tetrad behaviors.

Their ethical codes as a coalition would need to be much, much more well-defined before I would ever consider aligning with them politically.

I just can't add my fuel to that fire, even if I agreed with it more than I do. (And I agree with some of it-- I'm centre-left).

My point is that TRP doesn't exist in a vacuum, and even what you're expousing as Purple Pill (it sounds "Magenta"-- *red-leaning) still wraps itself around and into the neoreaction movement, and I believe that movement is playing with fire (Dark Tetrad) and truly enjoying the suffering it causes far too much.

It's bad-faithed actions.

And, no, I don't believe the small circle-jerks that develop to make fun of Neoreaction are anywhere near as directly and immediately damaging.

If Blue and Red are both "immoral", Red is so much more unEthical to me (cause and effect, consequentialism, big picture) that even the amount you've presented so far raises some huge red flags.

My main issue with the "immorality" (really, immaturity) of the leftism in my country is more to do with how it can tank the movement, not so much if it's an irredeemably dangerous force that will never-- in any time period-- benefit humanity.

The only reason I have to provide a disclaimer for that low-hanging fruit is because of the propensity of Blue Pill adherents to assume that anyone who disagrees with them on anything else, is probably some kind of anti-egalitarian Nazi.

And that's pretty dumb. An example of the immaturity (if you wanna call it "immorality") of BP circlejerks.

Those would be useful idiots. I stand to lose almost nothing if Nazi is used a slur-- I don't like authoritarianism, so even if Nazi is described in its weird Cerberus way (a) right-wing authoritarianism, OR (b) "radical centrist", OR (c) "national socialist", none of that rhetoric really damages society bc all of those movements are far too statist to ever be a good thing.

Otherwise, the immature anti-fascist Muh Nazi people-- whose rhetoric I do occasionally co-opt to agitate people politically-- are just useful idiots to me.

The Red is most of the uncomfortable truths that Blue is in outright denialism of - like the fact that women reward traditional masculinity with sexual attention,

Currently, to some degree, but less than before. It would end if both men and women on all sides of the political spectrum made a decision to deliberately devalue such a limited definition of masculinity.

I believe that men did this. It benefited them for centuries and now it's backfiring.

dottywine · 2017-01-08T03:23:25+00:00

It is. 'Tis the reason they call each other gay all the time.

dottywine · 2017-01-08T03:24:27+00:00

They are. Men will punish other men who have broken the masculinity code.

Title	Is masculinity fragile?
Author	Electra_Cute
Upvotes	14
Comments	490
Date	December 26, 2016 3:14 PM UTC (9 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/5ke415/is_masculinity_fragile/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/is-masculinity-fragile.271030 https://theredarchive.com/post/271030

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