The so-called "traditional" model serves for average men being able to control women

estrojennnn · 2020-02-24T06:01:50+00:00

A lot of women like that dynamic; Willingly being submissive to a man they deem as an alpha who carries the traits of a leader and protector; Women like security and stability and will give themselves to someone who they believe can provide that.

Many women don't want a position of power, don't want to work 9-5 jobs, don't want more rights, don't care for the right to vote, and it's for those reasons more women, especially young women, are going after older men; Someone who will take care of them and do all the hard work for them.

Many women like being submissive and controlled; It's easier to let someone else set their boundaries and rules than trying to manage their life themselves.

NockerJoe · 2020-02-23T21:21:07+00:00

Division of labor is efficient. Plenty of city people bitch that double income is essentially wiped out by day care costs. If both people are going to be all things at all times then neither will do it well. In this case if both parents work full time then try to both play parent after they'll be exhausted and divided.

You're acting like men aren't also severely limited by this model. You would have to work full time all the time and you can't display vulnerability and you have very little time for your family. You have to be responsible for 2+ other humans who aren't providing physical goods for themselves. Being older in modern society means earning more and you need to earn more to justify that kind of lifestyle choice.

Maybelowsmv · 2020-02-23T22:13:30+00:00

[removed]

ifelsedowhile · 2020-02-24T02:23:02+00:00

the purpose is to give each man a woman and a family as a reward for his contribution to society. It's a form of sexual communism.

DangZagnut · 2020-02-23T21:11:45+00:00

You’re talking about the past. It doesn’t exist any more and never will again.

Men “controlled” their wives according to feminists but it was a more family oriented cooperative enterprise. Everyone was invested in the operation.

It’s wasn’t about control, it was about cooperation.

Men generally dealt with external issues and women dealt with internal issues.

Those days are gone. Modern feminism is very anti-family and believes liberation can be achieved and oppression can be conquered by destroying the family and marriage entirely as feminism now is focused on oppression/oppressor dynamics and solutions.

So one of that matters. It’s done. The past is dead. Long live the new flesh!

Aaren_Augustine · 2020-02-23T21:22:08+00:00

Can you imagine a man that actually wants to take care of his wife? Or do you think men just see all the power plays and how to employ them in order to take advantage of a relationship that's supposed to last a life time?

I wonder if this is why some women are so terrible at playing the long game. They can only see the threat level and not the life you are attempting to build with another person.

This moldable shit is just a woman projecting what she thinks a man would do. Which is exactly WHY you don't give women the lead in a relationship; that's specifically what she'd do to corner whatever she wanted with minimal effort.

What I don't understand is how some people assume that is an exaggerated lie or that women have life easy in this regard?

It is an exaggerated lie because you hear these women say shit like "the husband would be able to get away with treating his wife badly (perhaps not necessarily at an abusive level" and you go, what the fuck is she smoking?

EsauTheRed · 2020-02-23T23:19:57+00:00

YOU personally want the traditional relationship except the man has no power, the man still has to do all the traditional things that YOU want you just don't want to be beholden to him

crookedsummer2019 · 2020-02-24T01:11:50+00:00

I don’t think all men want to control women. We have to look beyond the red pill, incel and similar groups where there is a higher concentration of men who are threatened by women and hence want to control them.

I really think the average man just wants someone who is laid back, loyal, agreeable and will treat them decently. I don’t think the average man feels that women need to be molded and controlled in a situation of dependency in order for them to treat men in the above way. Men who think like that have mental issues, and they tend to gravitate towards groups where those mental issues are validated.

2020-02-24T04:32:11+00:00

Yep. Cant change your mind when you're correct. Due to the separation of labor after the agricultural revolution men due to having more physical strength wanted to dominate women because they wanted to. Later they would make to lies to justify it, but at the end of the day it was hunger for power over others.

While a few trads dont want to "return to evopas tradition" out if malice but rather out of genuine concern, they can still alleviate their concern without fucking over alot of other people. Same with those who want to live traditionally. No one is stopping them, but they insist on forcing others to do so as well.

PM_Happy_Puppy_Pics · 2020-02-24T04:35:49+00:00

So, as a man, I feel best when I am providing for my woman. I feel the manliest, I stand up straight, and I am proud to walk into work every day to support my GF and do what is necessary. I think it is because the vast majority of men were slaves, evolutionary. Anyway, if I am happy, my GF is happy, our kids survive and are happy, why does anything else matter? We are a surviving species reproducing. We have so much technology, we could start to colonize the stars. Let's do this shit and take over the galaxy already.

geyges · 2020-02-23T21:21:12+00:00

the husband would be able to get away with treating his wife badly

This is why you pick your husband wisely. Raising kids is hard work, so there's nothing wrong with being a SAHM, or what really happens in more traditionally-oriented families is that grandparents (among other family members) take the burden of some of early childhood rearing. Furthermore even in traditional models its rare to see women spend all their time with children, its phase that lasts maybe 7-8 years and progressively gets easier as child becomes independent.

2) Women having to marry older men.

I don't think this was ever part of traditional model, but even if it is, there's an underlying implication that its a negative phenomenon, which it is not.

she'll be more likely to do what I want her to do

And what devious thing would that be?

3) Women being told to carry specific personality traits.

Both women and men are told carry specific personality traits, whether in traditional model or any other model you can imagine.

how some people assume that is an exaggerated lie or that women have life easy in this regard?

Nobody has it easy. Being a breadwinner and being in charge of putting food on the table for your family has driven many a men into an early grave.

beyond_relevant · 2020-02-23T21:53:28+00:00

The so-called "traditional" model serves for average men being able to control women

You make it sound like this is a bad thing.

Remember, women are the ones with power over men, by evolutionary design.

I mean think about it. Why do men compete? To compensate for womens demands.

Women cry "muh objectification", and then procede to treat men like literall tools. "Oh i like a tall guy, they make me feel safe", meaning i like that he can "do things", in this case "protection". "Oh i like guys who are providers", meaning women like to treat men as atms, and they excuse it as ok by telling men to "man up". Tools

I mean women turned men into donkeys with a carrot dangling above their heads.

Try to stop looking from your own point of view. Take a step back and see the larger balance of power between sexes.

Women only cry "muh rights equality" bu completely ignore the fundamental biological inequality.

Women, by evolutionary design, have power over men.

Men offer attention to women and ask it in return. Women offer their attention back and demand something more. That is why men compete, to compensate for womens aditional demands.

I mean look at this. Dating is like a meat market where women are like "hmmm... tilts monocle, hmm yes, this one has good pedigree".

"Oh what, you arent tall with broad shoulders? Into the meatgrinder with you.

Women get to pick and choose till their hearts content while men are trying to fulfill their ever increasing demands.

Like what is this logic of being a "provider". What a joke. Imagine you as a woman being forced to be a provider for you so otherwise the so will just leave because they have far more options than you.

People like to think that the world is fair and that their successed are the result of their hard work instead of the circumstances they found themselves in

It is, fundamentally, a problem of ego. The brain does not like to think of itself as powerless. It is why we have a bunch of psychological defence mechanisms that facilitate numerous logical fallacies that shield the brain from realising unpleasant truths. The truth being that we are no more than a marionette bound by the string called laws of physics. That is why people, especially men, commit the "just world" logical fallacy.

If you want more, heres a good post i wrote.

https://www.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/ey96kb/personal_freedoms_for_all_except_for_men/

Mulkvistee · 2020-02-23T23:57:19+00:00

I'm coming off of being deathly ill so hopefully this makes sense but I can answer to taking a career hit and marrying someone older.

For background, I knew I wanted to be a dancer when I was tiny. I don't remember wanting to be anything else. To pursue that professionally requires a ton of travel, pain, criticism, repetition, auditioning, competition, and not eating whatever the fuck you want or going to sleepovers or spring break trips and whatnot. Your childhood and teens are essentially your resume building years. Where you train and take your exams etc all factor into what company will take you. On top of that you've got your college back up plan if you're smart, and of course a job to pay for it all. None of this was done with kids or marriage in mind.

Which brings me to vetting. It's trite to say "just vet better!" but also true. Guy wants to eat two for $20 with free jalapeno poppers at Applebee's and fuck in his car because he has roommates? Lol, no. I'd literally rather use the time for an extra long hot shower and sleep. Thinks that driving all over SoCal to parties on the weekend and getting blackout drunk and sloppy sex is awesome? Would rather drink better alcohol at my house with my friends and remember the night before, sooo pass. Dating older got rid of both of those types, and by itself filtered out anybody who couldn't handle anything less than instant gratification and worshipping Taco Bell.

The thing being left out of the power discussion over who does more with kids is how actually having them changes you. If anything I'd say that power dynamics are more apparent before kids, after some kind of harmony or willingness to compromise becomes normal. I would've dropped my plans in a second after having kids without resentment if I had to. It just be like that. Ultimately all that time spent in preparation for a career I cut short was still leverage to work part time doing what I love where I set my own hours. I occasionally get pushback at work, but I'd sooner walk than do more and they know I can. Daycare isn't raising my kids.

My husband makes a shit ton more than me. Working part time hasn't made him suddenly think I'm into jalapeno poppers, darning docks, Tupperware parties, or making clothes out of old drapes. He's never ever used his job as some kind of "less than" ammo. If anything lately he thinks I should just quit all together because he travels semi frequently and often takes one or both of our kids. Sometimes it's tempting when our kids start spamming me with pics in the middle of the night, but I do love my job.

So by itself as a hypothetical, looking at not working in a power dynamics way will cast the woman a tenuous position. But this is something where the variables are literally everything. Who you married (is he a tradcon that expects subservience and soggy pot roasts every day?), your specific financial situation, the specifics of the career you chose and the options to work within it, how/if being a parent changed your outlook on what you want for yourself, how much your kids require you to be around (special needs etc) and probably 100 other things escaping me at the moment.

reluctantly_red · 2020-02-24T02:35:13+00:00

It's a fool's errand to try to control and manipulate women. Way too much work for far too little reward. The only woman worth having is one who's really into you.

Darkseeker_Mau · 2020-02-24T04:06:10+00:00

Normal men be like: "I don't want my wife to undergo hardship in life, even in the realm of work, she shouldn't have to work to survive".

Conspiracy theorist be like: "Bullshit, you just want to control women's financial dependence".

Men are not machiavellian creatures, those traditionalist men should be criticized for having a retarded worldview in which people don't work to live, but not for wanting to "control women".

I can't believe how people can turn a benevolent (if somewhat stupid) act into oppression.

blackedoutfast · 2020-02-23T22:43:51+00:00

Modern women have been brainwashed into having an irrational phobia of being controlled and manipulated by men. Ironically, (and the reason why they have been brainwashed to feel this way) it makes them far more susceptible to being controlled and manipulated by other forces in society.

Women are so focused on being controlled and manipulated by men that they don't even notice how badly they are being manipulated and controlled by marketing, mass media, politicians, etc. Modern women are controlled and manipulated to the extent that they voluntarily hand over their autonomy and individuality and freedom so that they can be "protected" from men.

You're not strong and independent and free. If anything, you're even more controlled and manipulated than your grandmother was. The real difference between you and her is that she was being "controlled" by one man who was also obligated to protect and take care of her. You're being controlled and manipulated but now you're an "strong independent modern woman" who is expected to protect and take care of yourself.

Just keep buying what they want to buy. Keep doing what they want you to do. Keep thinking what they want you to think. Keep voting how they want you to vote. Keep telling yourself that it's better now because you don't have a husband controlling and manipulating you.

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sadomasochrist · 2020-02-23T22:01:57+00:00

What’s the difference between wanting stability along with having preferences and wanting control?

wtknight · 2020-02-23T22:56:33+00:00

A man who wants number 1 could just think that a stay at home wife is what is best for his children. It doesn’t necessarily mean that he wants to control her if he prefers a stay at home wife. The preference for a younger woman is based upon aesthetics that are ultimately tied to biological fertility and do not have to be some indicator of a male desire for control. Finally, criticizing men for desiring certain personality traits is hypocritical, because women desire certain personality traits in men in order to be attracted to them, too.

None of these three things necessarily means that a man is controlling if he desires them. I do think that a man should support a woman’s desire to have a career, personally, but if my wife didn’t want to work I don’t think that would make me a controlling person, or make me want to control her more. There’s nothing inherently wrong with the traditional model if the man is virtuous and respects his wife.

HerosEnd · 2020-02-23T23:23:15+00:00

Well I do prefer being on top so I guess you rite

diffdedbed · 2020-02-24T03:54:58+00:00

You've taken worst possible scenarios as a given.

This is no different than MGTOW's who don't want to get married since its all about women and "divorce rape".

So lets reconcile this. You have men on one side, complaining that women have all the power in marriage.

Now you are saying men have the power and want to control be be abusive.

Now lets go to the middle side, you know where most people like to live. Marriage is about having kids. If you don't have kids as a woman, then you go on that career, married or not, but if you do, now you have more important things to think about.

If the man is in a better spot to make the money (remember women marry UP if they can, thats normal), then its logical that she should spend more time taking care of the kids.

Added no one dies thinking they should have gone to work more. I'm personally taking more time for my kids for this reason even though I'm the one that has to go to work 5-6 days a week.

But I digress....

You could be the poor, controlled woman, you mentioned and said "men want".

Or...

You could be say my wife. She quit her job when she had our first born, and later went to work for me, part time. She does most of the kid driving and stuff, gets to go with them on school trips and other trips, while I work. She has all the benefits of my status and wealth, without producing it herself.

And this is the logical thing for her to want to do because I am the superior provider.

Its a partnership. All of MGTOW's worries are if you marry a shitty woman. All of your worries are if you marry a shitty man. Or the alternate is shitty men and shitty women are complaining about other people's motives but the reason its an issue is they are shit.

Either way someone is being shitty.

So if you are a piece of shit, then fret over it. If you aren't than vet your mates. I knew my wife was "the one" but we dated for years, I knew her at her worst and best and she me. Marriage for us was a formality. I'd never recommend marriage without dating and spending most of your free time together for at least two years.

lestratege · 2020-02-24T05:37:57+00:00

Women focusing more on family than on education/career.

Men didn't either until late 19th century. 90% were farmers who would become farmers after their father, and whose only education was to read and write basic things. The difference in education and career between men and women is only a lag in time.

Women having to marry older men.

Age difference between spouses vary through time and place. But basically there is one thing that is unavoidable: women can be pregnant and have kids for two decades, hence they need to be married within that time frame.

Age difference with the spouse depends on sex ratio, which is for example impacted by war, etc. Also, there is a biological fact at play here: women become fertile BEFORE men, hence they have to marry older males if they are to get married young. Furthermore, since going through pregnancy necessitates support, it's more common to have someone with the means to support to be a father, hence the older men.

Women being told to carry specific personality traits.

Because these traits raised their survival. A woman is always at the mercy of a man if he chooses to be physical with her. Hence, she needs to develop traits that avoids such outcome.

All of these are not social traits coming out of nowhere. They are grounded in a biological reality that people tend to forget because of technology.

Pastelitomaracucho · 2020-02-24T05:45:36+00:00

Not only that, but the traditional model, in this time and age, will guarantee your financial ruin if divorce comes in.

Priyyy_8211 · 2020-02-24T06:13:57+00:00

I personally think that manipulation is something anyone is capable of regardless of gender. Men can and some do look for more "moldable" women and I'm sure there are women who are also capable of manipulation. It's just a matter of the kind of person you are and the kind of relationship you're in. Manipulation is a human skill that anyone can wield regardless of gender. I guess recently there have been more obvious physical examples of situations where men have done this, but at the end of the day I really don't think that a large majority of people enter relationships or stay in them for a personal gain or to find a moldable person to do whatever they say. I think for the most part people just want to find genuine reciprocated love where both partners are treated with love and respect and as equals.

PrincepsOmni · 2020-02-24T06:18:00+00:00

A woman who gives up working to care for her family would be at the mercy of her husband's kindness and financial situation.

Which is why if a woman wants this life she has a huge burden to carefully vet men to find one who is capable and trustworthy. Unless we're talking about Afghan hill tribes most of us have free choice in these matters...

As a breadwinner, the husband would be able to get away with treating his wife badly (perhaps not necessarily at an abusive level), and their livelihoods depend on how much money he is able to make.

Even historically laws were in place to punish neglectful men. Men were also responsible for their wives debts and depending on which era you look at some industries were dominated by women (in my country until the 11th Century brewing was female dominated...and most of them were married before 21 as was normal back then). Nothing stops a modern women being involved in a family business, having a home industry job etc. It's easier now than ever as we have so many labour saving technologies to keep a tidy house and home).

Life is unpredictable so it is a tricky situation to be in.

Yup. It always has been though. If our ancestors all thought this we wouldn't be around because they would be worried a harvest might fail so best not get married and have children.

All in all, the man has almost all of the power in this scenario.

Which is why she needs to vet carefully if she wants to CHOOSE this life. She has already accepted the relationship would be complimentary rather than equal - otherwise she would not be choosing traditional marriage.

Women are more than capable of deciding this for themselves. No everyone wants to be 'in control' or doesn't trust their partner to uphold their side of the deal.

Older men don't like younger women only for their looks. They state personality traits too, such as being more agreeable and 'feminine'. Of course, to plenty of people, this just reads as a case of "she'll be more likely to do what I want her to do"

If everyone is a consenting adult what's your problem with this? You're acting like you just discovered many relationships, even some of the best ones are not based on 50/50 equality....I know equality is a religion today we are brainwashed to follow but every relationship has power - doesn't have to be the man either. It will be there regardless.

To summarise, the age gap would lead to an imbalance in power as younger people tend to see older people as authority figures.

Has it occurred to you that some women like a man they can look up to? Ever heard of hypergamy? That can be age or wealth, or height or intelligence or talent etc...

Additionally, with the glamourised vision of such relationships, you can see it is indeed based on making the most of that power imbalance by seeking traits that make women less powerful.

The assumption than men and women can be equal is junk. Even in an 'equal' relationship the women who moves in with a man has to accept that he is usually bigger and stronger and if she doesn't trust him she's risking her safety and well being.

In other words, what I am trying to say is that ultimately men do want to control/manipulate women.

And what would you call a man working all the hours of the day for one woman only? Many men have the urge to 'spread the seed' yet he's being manipulated into being a loyal work house. All those men who went into the mines and died young from black lung were hardly master manipulators. Men still live less and suffer more injuries at work doing most of the dangerous jobs for their families and society....who's manipulating who exactly?

Eastuss · 2020-02-24T07:48:58+00:00

When uncontrolled women still go for older men.

Division of tasks 8s benefitial for women too.

This isn't about controlling women but having average ppl be relevant to each others and having most people pairing and reproducing.

In this model men have 0 choice but work and be a provider, why d you only see one side of the same coin?

factorfactorfactor · 2020-02-24T07:49:09+00:00

Yes.

Bntt89 · 2020-02-24T14:38:01+00:00

Your absolutely right women are all just stupid, and are always so dumb that they will always be manipulated by older men. They also are incapable of wanting to be a SAHM, they must've been manipulated by this evil genius scumbag man. In fact it isnt possible that a guy could ever want to be a traditional breadwinner who takes care of his family. It just isnt possible he just wants a sex slave that will pump out babies.

TL:DR op this women are retarded and that all men want sex slaves

tropicsGold · 2020-02-24T16:29:59+00:00

It is true that a woman must give up some financial power to have a traditional marriage, but she gains considerably in the exchange. Not having to work in an outside job, and able to devote herself instead to caring for her children, which many women love and find very rewarding. And the courts provide tremendous protection in the event of divorce, so it is not like she is all that powerless.

Indeed, it is the man who puts himself the most at risk with a traditional marriage. Wife can leave at any time and take half of his wealth and future earnings, and he is left with nothing. If she is working she may get nothing in the form of alimony. And she may have assets that he can take.

PS I don’t see where 2 and 3 come from, no requirement to marry older, or have particular traits, to have a traditional man. Quite the contrary, traditional women are in such high demand and short supply they can marry any age they like, pretty much on their own terms.

Tonga89 · 2020-03-03T00:54:41+00:00

If men "controled" women then the women would be the ones making the extremely heavy works and building the civilization and dying out there insted of being "imprisioned" in the kitchen.

Equiality is the right thing to do, however, and I'm glad women have more oportunities now than they had before, but don't come here with this "we were men slaves" shit just becouse you don't want to stick to traditional gender roles.

You don't have a slave locked in your kitchen to make you cookies and take care of your children while you slowly die in the coal mine to earn a miserable salary that allows you to feed your slave and put a roof over her head.

Like wtf woman!

If women were a race and not a gender they would be literally the only single race in the planet that made it through modern era without having to work AT ALL.

Jailed in your own house! With cookie bars!!!

And Patriarchy is the only sistem of opression in human history where slaves hold the 50% of the votes!!!

Come on dude! I literally can't believe feminist.

TheIllusioneer · 2020-02-24T00:33:45+00:00

Allow me to flip your list around.
The traditional model serves average women, using men to gain a lifestyle they would not otherwise have on their own.

1) Women will use the desire for family as a means to escape regular jobs. Seriously how many men do you think would gladly leave their tedious office jobs and get to spend more time with their kids instead? yes, please sign me up for that terrible life of being around the kids instead of dealing with some pointy haired boss.

2) Women select men based on their material value and to a lesser extent prestige. Unless you live in the middle east, or some other country where arranged marriages are normal, nobody forces you to date a guy. If the older guy asks the younger girl out and she says yes, it likely means she had a reason to. Younger men frequently complain about losing out to older men and women will state time and again that the older men are "better providers".

3) Are you in seriousness going to assert that women do not look for certain personality traits in men?

goneaway2thewind · 2020-02-23T22:12:35+00:00

I'm not a Tradcon, but I think the push back to traditional values is that women can't seem to handle a relationship any other way on average by their definition. The traditional model is meant to serve the interest of the family unit, not one cog in the machine.

Women focused on work and children and their husbands neglect at least on of those aspects. Whereas men hyper focused on work and women hyper focused on the home life just works. Women are also hypergamous (by their definition) so meeting a ton of men that will provide her temporary corporate favors out of interest is a biological temptation that is difficult to pass up. Your boyfriend might be and oil rig worker but the CEO is asking you out for drinks on a friday night, what do you think women are going to do most of the time? Also, some steady parent being at home is simply just better for the mental health of children. This can be supplemented by a grandparent but women will call a man a momma's boy for keeping them around.

In summary, women only appear to be happy if they can look up to man and feel like they actually need them. Because they actively find reasons to be unsatisfied due to higher neuroticism, its difficult for them to be equal and happy. They care about certain things in life more than men do, house being clean, family status to neighbors and friends, child development, etc. If they were given the opportunity to take responsibility for those aspects of life more it would lead to more satisfaction and longer term relationships.

Personally, I don't really care anymore. Just an analysis from my perspective.

Barely-moral · 2020-02-23T22:55:47+00:00

In other words, what I am trying to say is that ultimately men do want to control/manipulate women.

Can't this be a side effect instead of the main objective?

I mean... I want a smartphone. I know that in order for me to have an smartphone an industry that exploits children in third world countries has to exist. Do I want children to be exploited? ... no. It is a side effect.

goatismycopilot · 2020-02-23T21:14:04+00:00

[deleted]

The so-called "traditional" model serves for average men being able to control women

Comments

Bailey, J. (2002). Favoured or oppressed? Married women, property and ‘coverture’in England, 1660–1800. Continuity and Change, 17(3), 351-372.

Title	The so-called "traditional" model serves for average men being able to control women
Author	Maybelowsmv
Upvotes	39
Comments	295
Date	February 23, 2020 9:06 PM UTC (6 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/f8fvyl/the_socalled_traditional_model_serves_for_average/
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