Does the whole "Ask the fisherman not the fish" thing limit useful discussion on this sub?

MrMushySauce · 2022-05-25T20:57:36+00:00

I think on average you'd get better information from sexually successful men than just 'women in general.' There's women who suck at dating, too--why are they considered authorities on women by virtue of having vaginas?

Sexually successful men have something to point to that verifies they "get it" to at least some degree. If those people were as clueless as some women, they wouldn't have gotten to where they are.

That said, some women have good information. I've definitely had discussions with women that furthered my own understanding of women, and helped developed my own ideas that I share from the perspective of a sexually successful male. Something to consider:

If not because it was possible to learn anything about women from women themselves, why the fuck would being sexually successful as a guy increase your understanding of women? In that case they certainly don't seem like a good source for info. Having interacted with them would have been pointless (though I guess you could say it's because you've just watched what they do).

What men who say 'don't listen to women their advice sucks' really mean & should say is: "Don't naively believe every woman has the golden recipe." Plus, I do think even better takes from women can at times be a bit simplistic from a guy's perspective. They never experience actually approaching, making convo, easing tension, etc. The difference could be summed like:

Good woman advice: "don't make her uncomfortable when you approach her; women fear for their safety around men"

Good man advice: "Approach her more subtly. Don't just walk up and say, 'Hey, let's fuck.' She doesn't know you. Introduce yourself then make good eye contact with a slight smile and ask her to dance."

Of course, it's not always like this, but men tend more towards "actionable advice" and women tend more towards "an overview of the situation." This is why wives constantly complain "Just because I told you X doesn't mean I want you to fix it." The guy hears X is a problem, and gives actionable advice or takes action.

Steakman1 · 2022-05-25T21:34:27+00:00

I think almost everyone on this sub are in what I like to call “lawyer mode.” Meaning they have no interest in the other person’s point of view and are only here to prove that their own point of view is right. This goes for both sides and I’m not going to act like I’m not guilty of this at times. There’s almost 100k people on this sub. But the amount of people who have actually had their minds changed on any topic discussed here is probably less than 1%.

Apprehensive_Boat_70 · 2022-05-25T21:29:09+00:00

There was a time i was struggling with dating, the only advice that actually helped me was given by men, no woman on the other hand could give me any good advice, most of times it just made me more frustrated, bitter, hopeless and hateful, not that they had bad intentions towards me, they simply couldnt give me a good advice, not to mention the views of contempt and condescending attitudes i got when i was vulnerable enough to admit i struggled with dating..by women😬,
So yes, definetly i dont recommend any guy to take what a woman says regarding those matters at face value, nothing personal, experience simply taught me that, and if i had actually done that, my life would had become worst. I can easily turn a incel into a woman loving king, women, at least the ones here, will just turn him into a mass shooter or deranged killer 🤷🏻‍♂️.

BigBlackFatNaughty · 2022-05-25T20:51:50+00:00

lmao, "just ask the rich man how to get rich，bro"

you dont say

2022-05-25T21:06:23+00:00

You know that motto is bullshit when the fish is suddenly brilliant and worth listening to as long as the fisherman agrees with it

NockerJoe · 2022-05-25T21:08:04+00:00

If you ask most women for advice they'll either give a personal anecdote or give you advice that assumes the hypothetical woman already knows you and likes you and is interested. This is, generally, considered to be the easy part and the average man doesn't really need advice there to the same degree.

Which is why the statement that if a woman likes you the game is impossible to lose, but impossible to win otherwise is so important. The average woman here puts zero thought to the actual initial stages where most men fail most often.

cherryapparatus · 2022-05-25T20:58:36+00:00

useful discussion

this sub

lmaooooo

Orange_Paisley · 2022-05-25T21:09:39+00:00

Many a fisherman never catches much and just uses fishing as an excuse to drink beer on his boat.

just_a_place · 2022-05-25T22:18:27+00:00

Whoa first of all let's consider what type of fish are we speaking about here and what kinds of things are we asking them. Are we asking the cute little guppy how to catch a slender and more athletic marlin? Because that isn't gonna work.

Are the men here completely delusional, in thinking they know women, better than women know themselves?

Just because women live in their own skin doesn't mean they know themselves. People have blind spots in their self knowledge.

Also, sometimes the fishermen is wise in asking the fish which bait do they enjoy best. Take good old dirty sex for example: it's best to ask women what turns them on, and once they are turned on ask them what do they enjoy the most in that moment. For example, maybe a woman will be more inclined to give me a blowjob if she really enjoys getting her own pussy licked, give it to her as good as she gives. Maybe she is in a different mood today and would prefer a different thing, a different place, a different task. Variety keeps things interesting.

And by the way, the majority of women love getting their mouse wheel licked and fingered. How the hell would men know that if we didn't flat out ask them? Are supposed to just grab, rub, poke, lick and probe them and then read their reactions like a sorcerer reading chicken bones? lol

Whenever I want to know something about women in general or a single woman in particular I find it's a hell of a lot easier to just ask her, flat out, to her face. Just ask. Women are very verbal creatures which is counter intuitive for men. But usually women enjoy communicating more with their words than with their actions so if you ask them something they tend to tell you the truth if they trust you. Like why would a woman ever say she likes a certain type of guy when in fact she likes the opposite type? That wouldn't make any sense to her.

smallstarseeker · 2022-05-25T23:26:53+00:00

Guy asks a fish how to catch fishes, and fish goes.

Well you see, we fishes are very sophisticated, deep, intelligent creatures. You have to treat us nice, feed us three times per day, listen to our problems. And in a couple of months we will climb into your boat on our own.

So a guy asks the fisherman how to catch fishes. And fisherman goes.

You just put this bait on the fishing hook, lower the hook into the sea, wait for the fish to bite then pull the fish into the boat. Repeat.

januaryphilosopher · 2022-05-25T21:45:28+00:00

It's a huge double standard. In contexts where men are the fish (talking about what men like in women), they still think they're the experts.

localmicrodosechamp · 2022-05-25T20:48:55+00:00

I think focusing only on what “gets sex” is limiting and it’s creepy that this is all men are interested in/motivated by.

TheJim66 · 2022-05-25T20:52:50+00:00

Is the general idea that women are dishonest with men, dishonest with themselves, or simply not aware of their own nature and motivations?

All of this. Not only do women frame things in a way that sheds them and their gender in a positive light, they are also completely and utterly unaware of what they are actually attracted to.

Female desire isn't simple like men's, it's multifactorial. Looks, status and game arent things that are easily apparent and are so contextual and interconnected, they themselves don't know what it is that makes them want a specific man over others like him. And they don't need to.

Dont expect useful discussion in this sub. Its only for entertainment purposes. Until women move on from denying even obvious aspects of their sexuality we won't ever get to the actually nuanced parts of it.

sarkington · 2022-05-25T21:02:56+00:00

That statement definitely asserts that many men here will not listen to women, whatever the rationale. It is a common problem throughout society

MelodiousTones · 2022-05-25T21:58:05+00:00

No it’s misogyny. It’s based on the idea that women are stupid, lying, superficial crazy bitches - subhuman animals governed by biological impulses and Instagram. Women under this definition cannot be engaged with as people, they can only be manipulated, trained, coaxed like children without the ability to know what they really want or need. It’s that simple.

cloudydays84 · 2022-05-25T21:30:07+00:00

The analogy falls flat to a certain point (most do) since it's a reductionist way to see things. Having said that I'd be lying if they're wasn't some value to it.

This isn't so much about deliberate dishonesty, as much as it is a difference in want/desire and a different frame of reference.

You shouldn't disregard what women have to say but you should be aware that there might be a difference in perspective and desire that may not be conducive to what you want.

In which case it might be better to ask an accomplished fisherman how to catch a fish rather than a fish. You shouldn't take what he says as gospel, since he probably doesn't know how to catch every fish, but it'd probably be more helpful in the long run.

And that has less to do with knowing more about the fish than itself, and more to do with knowing more about being a fisherman.

Yummylicky23 · 2022-05-25T22:21:38+00:00

Well this fish don’t want to be caught by the fisherman so when someone says this it points about something about them

chalkandapples · 2022-05-25T23:46:27+00:00

This whole dynamic paints men and women as adversarial to each other. The fish knows more about fishes than a fisherman ever would. But the reason you don't ask a fish how to fish is because the fish doesn't want to be caught, it dies if it's caught.

Using this analogy makes it seem like men wants to trick women into relationships while women are trying their best to not be tricked by men. This isn't how men and women works, unless it's a very toxic environment.

ZealousidealAd7191 · 2022-05-26T00:03:59+00:00

I think you can get good info from both men who have had success in dating and women who are uncharacteristically honest. But in my experience, women who are willing to he honest and give actually good advice about dating are FAR more rare out of the two

2022-05-26T00:29:14+00:00

"Watch what they do, not what they say" is fantastic advice in general.

I'm not sure why men bother asking these questions of the women here anyway; when asked bluntly the answers given will mostly be whatever makes team woman look good, and you have to pay attention to more candid related discussions to get the truth of the matter.

-Ivar-TheBoneless · 2022-05-26T01:50:16+00:00

Well I do notice that the women here try to deny some red pill truths. Even ones that are obvious to everyone. Maybe they are trying to keep men in the dark, or maybe lack self awareness (which isn't just limited to women).

Another thing I noticed is that this sub just has a certain demographic, which is young and white. Maybe they just don't know how the rest of the world is.

2022-05-26T02:03:35+00:00

You can still have useful discussions with women, but you have to learn to read between the lines. Women rarely ever express what they truly like or desire. And they also dont really understand the process of approaching and scoring women from a mans perspective.

Therefore, an experienced, successful fisherman's advice will always be superior.

You can still learn from women though, but you have to pay more attention to their actions.

Ambassadior · 2022-05-26T02:13:34+00:00

One of the major issues I see with women's comments is that they lack a degree of self reflection beyond the surface level. It's always interesting to see but the value is that they inevitably tell on themselves only to prove TRP more.

There are three kinds of women, the ones who are unapologetic about their nature, the ones who hide it, and the ones who don't even understand themselves.

If you word anything TRP says in a more feminine based way they'll admit to it, it's only the cold analytical judgement that triggers them to invalidate the truth. After all, women evolved by maintaining favor with men as a whole for protection and provision. If men didn't think they were wonderful who would have done that?

All in all, there is value in the women here. When I want to get the hard truth I take a visit to the real sub r/TheRedPill

chingness · 2022-05-25T21:41:49+00:00

If a fisherman were ABLE to talk to a fish he’d be able to catch more fish for sure 🤣 Also the analogy doesn’t hold up unless you want to catch women to kill them and eat them 😩

gofigure62 · 2022-05-25T22:57:06+00:00

A man "jokingly" asks his wife what he needs to do to get more blow jobs.

His wife says "You know honey, I've really been having a terrible toothache for a while and my knees have been killing me. So I guess a dentist appointment and a pillow to get the job done."

The man goes to the bar later that evening dejected. He tells his friend. "My wife hasn't given me a blowie in months! And I have no idea why!"

His friend scoffs at him and says "You know, your wife works hard. She works all day, comes home, takes care of you and the kids. Whens the last time you bought her flowers, or perfume? Ya know, when's the last time you showed her any appreciation?"

The man goes home lost in his thoughts, thinking of what his friend told him. He loving watches his wife tuck the kids in for bed, and then organize a little of this and that around the home as she makes her way into the bedroom. He realizes that he doesn't show enough appreciation towards his wife for all that she does.

The next day, after work the man runs to buy his wife the most beautiful boutique of roses, and and the best perfume he could afford. He excitedly rushes home and boasts to his wife about the gifts. He tells her "Honey, you do so much for me and the kids. And I just wanted to show you how much I appreciate and love you."

His wife looks at the gifts and starts sobbing uncontrollably. The husband triumphantly wraps his arms around his wife in this tender moment. His wife weakly pulls away saying with a broken heart "Why would you buy me roses? You know they remind me of my mothers funeral. Why would you buy me perfume? You know that I'm allergic."

She sinks into herself and solemnly walks into the bedroom closing the door behind her.

The man stands there confused. Wondering what he did wrong and wondering if he'll ever get another blowjob again.

OhDestinyAltMine · 2022-05-25T20:57:21+00:00

Both are totally minimized by each camp at their peril. Men base their opinions seeing who and what women fuck publicly, whether or not women have positive feelings about it afterward. Men also fail to account for how different archetypes of men wear different behavior better—though women don’t exactly help in that regard.

Women base it on their ideals and the experiences they look back on fondly while minimizing how much their “uh yeah THAT night” choices incentivize men to behave like the guy she went home with.

Everyone would be wiser if they were more receptive to the good points others bring up, but wisdom is as rare in humans as freely given pussy is to manospherians.

YoviQ · 2022-05-25T21:49:34+00:00

The analogy doesn't make any sense whatsoever because:

1) Women aren't fish. We can communicate and have our own free will and desires.

2) Fish hunt other fish.

AelfredRex · 2022-05-26T02:16:54+00:00

Speaking for myself, and as a fisherman, I ask the women and the fish. How else am I gonna know what to bait my hook with? They know what they like to eat, I don't, so I have to ask them. Women want a confident man who has control over himself and his life, not some neurotic child constantly throwing temper tantrums every time he doesn't get his way. Maturity, not immaturity, but with a bit of whimsy on the side. How do I know that? They've told me.

Then you get these redpill/blackpill guys screaming "No! It's looks! It's money! It's fame! She won't touch you unless you're a god!" and I have to wonder if they've ever talked to a woman, even their mothers. They project all their own shallowness and incapacity to love onto women, then attack anyone who deviates or disagrees. Just narcissism, really. The arrogance, the envy, the magical thinking, the desire to exploit... all the tell-tale signs of a damaged ego.

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PlayfulLawyer · 2022-05-25T21:05:29+00:00

People use this sub for useful discussions?

But ias the best thing for guys in that instance is to listen to averageish guys who HAVE been successful, of course many on here will come up with excuse in the book regardless but for those with a good mentality and actual work ethic,👍

Suzcval · 2022-05-25T21:29:24+00:00

Its flawed reasoning because humans are obviously higher and more intelligent lifeforms in every capacity compared to a fuckin fish, so if anything it just really speaks to that dudes views on women.

feedmepizzaplease99 · 2022-05-25T22:26:51+00:00

The whole fisherman thing is stupid. And it never seems to extend to women not wanting mens advice in dating.

I think everyone should seek advice from whoever has what they want. So I guess men should ask successful men/women should ask successful women.

melody_of_ · 2022-05-25T22:48:38+00:00

You should look for people who used to be in a situation that was as similar to yours as possible . And then they managed to improve their situation greatly. Eliminate as many variables as possible

Flightlessbirbz · 2022-05-25T22:57:41+00:00

Pretty sure most of the questions for women here are intended as a “gotcha,” because whatever we say will either be twisted to prove their viewpoint or they’ll accuse us of lying. They’ve already decided what they think and aren’t going to change it in most cases. And men in general tend to not listen to women, be dismissive, tell us what we think or should think, it’s not limited to PPD or dating issues.

As for who to listen to on dating advice, imo men should listen to both men and women. Men can have insight from one side, women from the other. But WHO you listen to specifically is probably more important than their gender. There’s little reason to listen to men who have no success with dating and do not even like women. On the other side, your mom is probably going to sugarcoat things and tell you you’re a very handsome boy and to just be yourself. Listen to men and women who have done well for themselves and who can be honest with you.

GlowingAsItDazzles · 2022-05-25T23:04:11+00:00

i mean you can always ask, just dont take the responses as seriously as you would from successful experience dmembers of your own sex

Netheral · 2022-05-25T23:38:43+00:00

Oh definitely.

It should always be kept in mind.

After all, the fish only ever sees the world from the same perspective as the fisherman when it's taken the bait.

Or something lol. It's not a perfect metaphor. But it shouldn't be used to detract from discussion as much as it does.

ruboyuri · 2022-05-25T23:49:11+00:00

Yes, obviously

billsull_02842 · 2022-05-25T23:49:13+00:00

maybe men lie to women and women lie to themselves. i certainly dont think they are sweet loving and wonderful as they seem to believe.

vorter · 2022-05-26T00:44:01+00:00

I think a much better analogy is don’t ask a random consumer how to sell calls, ask a (successful) car salesman.

This post and its comments from MensLib explains it pretty well: “Why feminist dating advice sucks”

MichaelCeraGoneWild · 2022-05-26T10:18:20+00:00

Forget all those rules. There’s only one and it hasn’t failed me.

Is the person giving the advice hot (woman or man)? If not, discard opinion.

Not memeing, this cuts out 90% of advice which is usually crap

RinoaRita · 2022-05-26T11:37:40+00:00

Have you heard of the three blind men roughing an elephant? One says it’s smooth and large like a wall, another says it’s long and twisty and another says it’s firm like tree trunks.

Listen to the various observations from men women attractive unattractive single taken etc and then you can try to piece together the big picture.

Comprehensive_Bed314 · 2022-05-26T13:09:35+00:00

I don’t use this forum for relationship advice. I use this forum for personal entertainment. I also enjoy sharing my ideas with others. Maybe I’ll say something that helps someone.
Why does the fisherman want a fish? For a partner (ultimate best friend)? For social validation? For sex? For money? What kind of fish does the fisherman want?
Who are the good fishermen? What are the good fish? It’s common sense that Coho, Spring, and Sockeye salmon are better than Pink salmon. Pink salmon are better than Chum salmon. Chum salmon are better than god awful Atlantic salmon. Interestingly, I’d rank a Ling cod and then a black rockfish above a Pink. Kelp greenling would be ranked just below a Pink. Tommy cods are dumbass little fish that always bite your line just for you to quickly throw them back into the sea… Why the fuck am I talking about Tommy Cods? Why did I even talk about Ling cods, Pink, and even Sockeye? Why even mention them when I’m not going to settle for anything less than a GREAT BIG TYEE SPRING SALMON. Ya, 30+ lbs! When you get one of those on the line, you get your buddies to pull the other rods and down-riggers up because there’s no point risking this fish for anything else. You turn off the gas so you’re no longer trolling. Some bastard drives by in a boat, almost crossing your line so you yell, “Fuck off! I’ve got a good one on the line!” You’re getting tired from the fish’s runs so your buddy says, “Want me to take over?” You say, “Fuck off, James! This is my god damn fish!” and you reel even faster, keeping your rod tip up with no slack. The fish is near so you prop up the motor, and swing the canopy up so it’s not in the way. As soon as that fish’s head pops up, you net that god damn fish… Then you bonk it between the eyes and head to shore. You take your picture holding the fish and then gut it by the boat launch. Your buddy throws the guts to the seagulls for a nice treat. When you get home, you cut off the head to use as crab bait. You spray off the scales with the garden hose. And then you start preparing the salmon - pieces for cooking/barbecuing, pieces for smoking, pieces for canned salmon. You make the smoked salmon and canned salmon. You use a vacuum sealer for the remaining pieces which you store in your freezer. You burry the remaining fish carcass next to your roses for fertilizer. Wait… did this analogy completely fall apart? God damn it. I tried.

JustALotOfLetters · 2022-05-26T16:22:07+00:00

Women usually can’t conceive the average man’s experience in dating until they get older. Asking the fisherman is a good rule because they know what they are doing. Women think of the kind of guy they want to date and give you advice based on what they wish the guy would do usually. They don’t take your goals or give you advice where you can win. They think from the perspective of the women for her to win. That is why women’s dating advice is usually bad. Women like to critique your thought process and suggest you should think like them just in general, don’t listen to that kind of stuff.

Sociable-Sam · 2022-05-26T19:37:34+00:00

Women: "Just be yourself, get a new shirt, a skin care regimen and be more interesting..."

Men: Uh, come here dude. We need to talk...

Stunning-Potato-1984 · 2022-05-26T21:23:56+00:00

I always wonder why would you ask a bad fisherman?

"Hey man have you caught any fish in the past year?"

"No I haven't caught any fish to mouthfuck but that's because these fish are entitled and bla blah blah"

"The whaaaaaaa"

DorianneGrey · 2022-05-26T00:05:23+00:00

In general on this sub, the men are asking for advice on how to get laid as easily and with as little effort or potential consequences as possible, the women are providing advice on how to obtain and maintain an actual relationship (which would presumably include sex once established). Both call their version “dating”.

Title	Does the whole "Ask the fisherman not the fish" thing limit useful discussion on this sub?
Author	Urbantexasguy
Upvotes	17
Comments	143
Date	May 25, 2022 8:47 PM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/uxqpz3/does_the_whole_ask_the_fisherman_not_the_fish/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/does-the-whole-ask-the-fisherman-not-the-fish.1118575 https://theredarchive.com/post/1118575

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