Let's talk about niceness

SuspiciousArdvark · 2022-07-19T23:15:56+00:00

Ive said this before but probably no one pays attention to what I say because I mostly shit post. In economics for a signal to be effective it must be either impossible or very costly to fake.

Being nice is kind of free. That's not what girls mean when they say they want a guy who is nice.

What they actually mean is they want a guy who can make them feel good when they interact with them. This depends on being able to get a decent read on other people's internal state and knowing what to say/do to make the vibes fun and this is contextual based on how the other person feels/what the social context is.

This isn't free, because it is demonstrating a pretty adept level of social awareness and empathy.

Edit: It's biology, not economics and its called signalling theory. I'm not ProfessorArdvark for a reason

NockerJoe · 2022-07-20T01:01:52+00:00

As much as celebrities don't really indicate social norms look at Will Smith. He tried to get with Pepa from Salt n Pepa and to demonstrait his quality he acted nice to her and gave large sums of money to the homeless population. She decided he wasn't, in her words, "thug enough" and passed up on him. Even in his current marriage he's been known as a spineless cuckold for a hot minute now and the only way he ever got any support at all was by slapping a dude on live tv, which was still the only time any signifigant segment of the public backed him even with controversy.

Its an extreme and anecdotal example but if one of the most famous men in the entire world has repeated girl troubles that mostly come from a percieved lack of backbone while spending large amounts of time and money in having an image of being a wholesome family friendly dude that shows you how much niceness is really worth in a relationship.

Hell, the entire way the discussion happens makes it obvious that niceness isn't the first, second, or even tenth most important attribute. The guys who lead with it don't wind up with much and the women complaining their partner doesn't have it already picked a dude without it.

Nice people aren't rare, and they aren't really considered especially valued by default. If they were dudes who volunteered for charity would be constantly fending off women and dudes on death row wouldn't get love letters.

Joelypoely88 · 2022-07-20T01:03:23+00:00

IRL they are generally treated as synonymous.

For some reason on Reddit the meanings have been twisted to where kindness is associated with inherent goodness and niceness is associated with fake good intentions. Who knows exactly how this developed but it seems to be related to the 'nice guy boogeyman', which seems to be a method of obfuscating discussion of how kindness or morality appears not to be selected for in men.

caption291 · 2022-07-20T10:03:06+00:00

Most of the time the difference between "good personality trait" and "bad personality trait" is how attractive the person is.

blasianalchemist · 2022-07-20T00:26:28+00:00

There is no difference. If a dude came up to a girl and lead with “I’m a kind person”, I highly doubt that the interaction will be any different than saying “I’m a nice guy”. Nice guy is the label with baggage on it so people are just making a false distinction between the two terms. In the dating context it relates to behavior and action.

Other uses for nice is normally to describe objects; I.e. this is a nice car.

People on this sub say that motive is what separates the two terms when that’s just bullshit. Holding a door open for a person can be considered a kind/nice thing to do. And in turn the other party will say that’s really nice/kind of you. If someone says, “that’s really nice of you to do that”. Would that mean that they’re describing you as manipulative? Like come on guys.

LowCreddit · 2022-07-20T01:27:50+00:00

I can nicely evict you from your home, but I can't do it kindly. To be clear, neither niceness nor kindness are attractive to women.

GottaPSoBad · 2022-07-19T23:30:47+00:00

Women, broadly speaking, want a man who can be nice, not necessarily a "nice man." So it's niceness as a skill or a potentiality, not a dominant trait. It's similar to the difference between being a man who's capable of violence and a "violent man."

Then there's the whole "nice guy" meme or archetype, which is basically just someone who makes niceness their whole personality or primary selling point. Those guys are often very transparent and understandably unattractive. (Lots of overlap between this sort of thing and male feminists btw.)

As far as the "nice vs kind" thing, that's essentially just semantics and sophistry. As a linguist, writer, and former English major, I see it all the time and always roll my eyes. Synonyms are a thing. Salespeople and marketers, among others, just like to pretend similar words have vastly different meanings and profoundly different implications mostly just to sell you stuff (including ideas).

SylvestorTalone · 2022-07-20T00:11:33+00:00

Kindness is what niceness is called when you're attractive.

Notimecelduv · 2022-07-20T07:20:43+00:00

Kindness plays no part in attraction. If a woman is already attracted to you, she'll just value your kindness as a bonus. If she isn't, no amount of kindness will change that.

801735 · 2022-07-20T03:25:21+00:00

I wanted to ask the members of PPD whether they thought there is any distinction to be made between these two concepts.

Just like with creepiness vs "just daring enough", the niceness vs kindness thing just might be in the eye of the beholdressess' attraction to the guy exhibiting the behavior. Add situation factor, herd acceptance, soyshell games, age and other grains of salt if you like your soup tasting a bit more combinatory.

Plopolok · 2022-07-20T09:58:58+00:00

You can assign different meanings (more like connotations) to each if you want, it's not wrong but it's still mostly mental gymnastics to avoid the real discussion. Now we'll have to restart the question by asking "is kindness attractive". The answer is no. A guy who takes public transport because he wants to save the planet is less attractive than a guy who burns whatever he feels like, no matter how you name that. Niceness/kindness is too correlated with low social status (in ape societies, beta males must be nice to the dominant males, under penalty of getting savagely beaten). Basically niceness/kindness can be attractive only if it's directed at people who are submissive to you, otherwise it's repulsive. (In the context of generating sexual attraction in females, not in general of course).

YtBlue · 2022-07-19T23:13:24+00:00

Both the same if you take out the fluff. People just like to play wordplay semantics. In general people explain kindness as being nice when you could have not been. Basically starting from a position of power. For example a CEO letting you slide for slacking off after a illness. Niceness being nice out of a manipulative mindset or because you had to. Basically out of a weaker position. For example a guy buying a girl gifts because he had to in order to grab her attention. Its just the viewpoint. The problem is most women think they're better than the average man. So unless your above all it's better to not do any or you'll be in the nice category.

PMmeareasontolive · 2022-07-19T23:39:22+00:00

Guy here. Kindness might be a slightly more proactive form of niceness. More proactive than reactive. But niceness is genuine, or I would call it something else. If I say someone is a nice girl or guy I mean exactly that, I don't mean they have an ulterior motive (putting aside those arguments that all altruism is actually self serving) or expect anything other than garden variety pleasantness in return.

crabbieinreddit · 2022-07-20T07:01:15+00:00

now speaking about men and women, I think what counts for a person, at least a lot to me, is how kind are they to the people they dont consider to be in their "team", if that makes sense. Things like how you treat strangers or waiters more in particular, hows your relationship with the exs you have, how you engage with people you dont like or people you dont agree with, etc. Im deffenitely not speaking about the hability to be a false person, but the hability of understanding that people will always be people, no matter which side of the fence you consider them to be in.

wtknight · 2022-07-20T11:57:24+00:00

I don’t see much difference. They are beta traits and not alpha traits. Women don’t want guys who are nice or kind in the absence of attractive alpha traits. But if he is attractive in other ways, then kindness or niceness are considered bonuses because they are reassurances to her unconsciously that he will likely stick around to help care for any future offspring.

DXBrigade · 2022-07-20T12:31:25+00:00

Little to no difference. It's just that the term "nice guy" has a negative connotation. It's about a guy with ulterior motives who acts like a people pleaser and lose his shit when he doesn't get "rewarded".

Admirable_Bee_8714 · 2022-07-20T14:29:04+00:00

Women want a guy who is selectively nice. Meaning he is nice to her but an absolute beast to the rest of the world.

anonymousUser1SHIFT · 2022-07-21T00:56:35+00:00

Nice/kind is a thing that women are attracted to only after they are already attracted to you.

It's like a bonus but doesn't play into the original attraction calculation.

lalelu2727 · 2022-07-23T20:54:47+00:00

Good news for everyone on here: you are not nice people

LegitimateGlad · 2022-07-19T23:13:06+00:00

Neither are good, women will put you on the side for either. Just push and pull and treat them like trash or property. You will have a better outcome.

rojomojojo · 2022-07-20T02:52:40+00:00

40 year old male here. There is a difference between "niceness" and kindness. (Notice I've intentionally left one in quotations.) The kind of "niceness" that women have a problem with is the "giving to get" kind. The "with strings attached" kind. The "I like you. But if you don't like me back, I'm not going to be okay" kind. "And I'm going to complain to you and guilt you over your lack of reciprocity." "You're not really free to choose or not choose me. If you don't choose me, something is wrong with you, because I... (insert all the ways I'm a good guy here)." I used to be like this. Resources like the no longer existing Authentic Man Program, the web page http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/ng.shtml, and other men's work sources helped me see this about 7 years back. And once I saw it, I couldn't unsee it.

I'm really only posting here for guys who want to really understand this and deal with it. It changed my relationships to, not only women, but pretty much everyone. For the better. Because it helped change me. No regrets having understood this.

Another resource I came across recently. https://youtu.be/OjpxlBRbhXs.

sarkington · 2022-07-20T01:07:59+00:00

“Nice” means “socially considerate”

“Kind” means active care and concern

Slipthe · 2022-07-19T23:14:05+00:00

The difference between the two is the amount of sincerity and conscientiousness. And part of the sincerity of kindness is that you are not doing something just to curry favor.

pinktuliplover · 2022-07-20T00:59:01+00:00

For me nice is an expectation. I expect everyone to be nice and polite right from the start. So if a guy is nice that really doesn’t add to his attractiveness at all because nice should be the most basic requirement. And of course if someone is not nice then that’s an automatic no from me.

Kindness is more like helpful or generous. You care about others and try to assist them when you can. Kindness definitely makes you more attractive because it shows you are considerate of others’ feelings and you try to take positive action when you can.

no_usernameeeeeee · 2022-07-20T00:09:16+00:00

Yes niceness and kindness are different. Niceness is doing what feels good, while kindness benevolence.

Let me give you an example as i saw elsewhere.

Someone who has unhealthy drinking habits asks their friend if they think it’s a problem:

nice friend replies: Noooo no at all! sometimes you do over do it but you’re totally fine.

Kind friend replies: Yes, i think you have unhealthy drinking habits. How do i support you?

In this case, the nice friend is saying what feels good, what they think won’t startle or upset their friend. The kind person is acknowledging the problem, even if there’s a possibility the friend may not like this response, but also offering their genuine help.

Niceness doesn’t require integrity or honesty. Nice people simply do things that feel good to them. Kindness doesn’t always feel great but is sincere.

In the case of dating, nice guys do what feels good to them and what they think will benefit them. What will get them the girl while keeping their conscience clear. But it’s not rooted in intergrity which is why they get so upset and bordeline hateful when that kindness is not rewarded with female attention. They were simply nice in order to reach a certain goal. And this can totally be done subconsciously, think of people pleasers, they do the same thing.

BlackPorcelainDoll · 2022-07-20T00:47:15+00:00

Niceness and kindness are two different things. You can be genuinely nice in a Machiavellian way that'll get you results for this niceness. People, especially women love nice men when they are genuine, but note that "genuine" isn't always good. People think agreeableness and conflict aversion amounts to some kind of natural goodness, but it does not. Niceness has nothing to do with moral character, but is instead a form of conduct that is used like a tool.

I'll even make the crazy argument that there is no surface difference between a genuinely nice person and a mean person, but where these two differ is that the "mean person" just hasn't succeeded at being nice. Both types of men get women in the same amount, but use these same women for different goals. The former is fixated on maintaining the connection to these women as long as possible, while the latter can take it or leave it, even if they don't want to. Mean people that do not know how to be genuinely nice to disarm and then insert other traits of manipulation are what we call "fake nice" (the mean people). They know nothing but bulldozing.

I'll even take it a step further from that and say that nice men get more net positive results when they combine it with charm; and these men are by far the most successful in term of net positive results and outcome in accordance to their goals with women. In order to get benefit from being nice, you must also use charm. Nothing is wrong with nice unless it is fake; and not because being fake doesn't net positive results too but because being fake dissolves important social networks and connections very fast, while being a genuinely "nice person," however terrible, will not.

You can be nice without charm, but charm is an important trait that must go with "nice". Niceness disarms the people around you so you can turn up the charm, which will contribute to the results you want.

Niceness is simply disarming and won't get much out of it; unless you use it as the tool it is. To disarm and then make room for charm and light flattery. For some this exudes naturally in their character, the two follow so closely together you can hardly see the switch from nice to charm. I use this all the time in business or when I want to get a particular result, being nice and them charming - but having a solid plan to communicate as well. The common myth is that you must be a "shark" but this is mostly situational and more of a response to people that are not nice to you first and less so a primary strategy. Not being nice will burn all your social networks and connections faster than you can blink. Anyone that is skilled with people knows this.

A kind person as a lifestyle is less likely to be genuinely nice and less likely to be mean, in general. These people are basically Saints; live frugally and have very small followings. They are modern Buddhists. Nothing wrong with that, but the average person is not this.

Think about it this way, I can get 1000 people to vouch for how genuinely nice I am from just knowing me for a few weeks to a few months, but maybe around 3 or 4 would vouch for my "kindness"; and if I asked one of those loyal 1,000 vouching on how wonderfully genuinely nice I am, they will have to pause and think on whether or not I am kind by recalling some random deed from 2016.

Gold-Performance-536 · 2022-07-19T23:21:19+00:00

Kindness works when you have far more power than the person you are being kind to. Niceness is trying to win over people of roughly equal power. Kindness is attractive and niceness is not

jjlew922 · 2022-07-20T00:00:44+00:00

There is a difference between nice and kind. I stated this in an earlier post but probably one sided. A nice guy is the white night who curtails to anyone just like a nice girl is a doormat. Both of them put up with bad behavior from the opposite sex. There is something they want from the opposite sex, it’s not genuine. A kind person has boundaries, cares for others, is assertive, doesn’t put up with bullshit. The “NiceGuy™️” is someone who thinks he’s owed attention for being a decent human being but there is an ulterior motive (often sex) behind such good gestures. It’s not genuine. Thus, you are nice hoping for a reward vs being kind cause it’s a right thing to do with another human.

TheRedPillRipper · 2022-07-20T10:58:26+00:00

”It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener in a war.” - Chinese proverb.

there is a distinct difference

The gardener is kind. Nurturing. Nice. In war however, he’s of little value. A warrior in a garden though? Is always ready for war.

Godspeed and good luck!

Pigeon_of_the_sea · 2022-07-19T23:14:07+00:00

Usually when people say "nice guy/girl" that is code for people that are not actually nice. They act nice to try and get what they want, but will be angry/mean if they don't get what they want. They also will overestimate their niceness, or conflate acts of desperation for "being nice." They may feel they are owed something if they are nice.

When people refer kindness, they are talking about the type of person that is nice/kind because that is who they are. They aren't doing it to "get" something, and they aren't going to become mean later on. It isn't performative. They aren't angry deep down. They just are a nice/kind/empathetic person, and treat others with kindness regardless of the outcome.

Neither is guaranteed to get you a romantic partner.

OriginalRushdoggie · 2022-07-20T03:34:02+00:00

Its easy to be nice, its superficial and takes little effort. Its a gloss over, sometimes insincere and usually a way to reflect on ourselves. Its often a form of manipulation.

Kindness requires empathy, requires actually giving of yourself and putting someone else first.

You can be nice by being polite, by buying something for someone, using superficial manners.

You are kind when you give up something you want to make someone else happy and that makes you happy. You are kind when your impulse is to be angry or short and instead you consider that your reaction would be hurtful so you dial it back.

Kindness requires empathy and self-reflection, it requires being vulnerable and genuinely giving to someone else without expectation of reciprocity.

bareasscontessa · 2022-07-20T06:01:46+00:00

Nice is basic decency and respect.

Kind is active listening and making an effort to get to know you and building an emotional rapport.

Nice is asking questions.

Kind is listening to the answers and filing them away for later. Remembering someone’s favorite candy (50 cent laffy taffy) and showing up with one is kind.

Nice is paying for dinner.

Kind is not expecting sex for it.

Nice is responding to messages.

Kind is reaching out to say they’re thinking about you.

Nice is holding the door.

Kind is leading you in with a hand on the small of your back.

Nice is doing something with an expectation of praise or returned favors.

Kind is doing something just because you like someone and not keeping score.

Nice is letting you pick the restaurant.

Kind is finding out what you like and surprising you with your favorite.

Nice is aloof but cordial.

Kind is engaged and visibly passionate about your time together.

Nice tolerates the things you like, even if they don’t like it themselves.

Kind is participating because doing anything with you is better than doing it solo.

I am kind. Not nice. When I like someone, I just want to learn everything about them so I can spoil them and and make every day a little brighter.

If I encounter a “nice” person, my hairs stand on end and i abruptly remove myself. If I meet a “kind” person, I want to appreciate the fuck out of them every single day and make damn sure they know how special they are.

AprilMaria · 2022-07-20T04:12:21+00:00

Niceness is false, kindness is genuine. Anyone can perform "nice" it's often the whole outer persona of narcissists and abusers. Niceness is inherintly manipulative because it's doing good things not because they're good but because of how far they'll get you.

Kindness comes from a place of genuine empathy and a moral compass.

2 people I know, both male and related to me.

1) is nice but not kind. He is a skilled manipulator who is very well regarded in the community because he performs "nice" so well. He doesn't know I know all about certain things and thinks we are close. I let him be close to me because he's dangerous when out of sight. He thinks I'm the same idiot as everyone else and I keep it that way so if I become inconvenient to him and he tries to fuck me over I'll see it coming. The man is downright dangerous, but extremely nice.

2) is kind but not nice. On the face of it he's very burly/aggressive and blunt. He is not popular and hasn't a drop of charisma. He can be awkward to deal with, but I'd trust this man with my life. He has a strong caring side and a very strong moral compass.

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Magnito-was-right · 2022-07-20T00:31:12+00:00

Kindness is when you do something for someone because you want to with no other motive. Niceness is when you expect something good from the person you were nice to, and you wouldn’t have been nice to them if you knew they wouldn’t reciprocated.

Impossible_You_8555 · 2022-07-20T01:44:18+00:00

I'm gonna put a twist on this, I've never found niceness to be attractive in women, in fact I find too much niceness to be one of my top turn offs.

Niether kindness or niceness are very useful or attractive

Why

The most actually helpful people not just shoulder to cry on helpful aren't kind I have found, they are generally loyal

Kind people are only helpful about small things and these things don't really matter

They tend to be boring

Give me a loyal person who keeps their word any day both as a friend or a gf

Also I want a girl who is kind to be and people close to here (and animals) but not people in general.

KayRay1994 · 2022-07-20T03:20:05+00:00

I think we need to define our terms here -the term “niceness” is usually associated with being a ‘nice guy’ - ie. doing actions that are publicly perceived as kind for the sake of some kind of sexual return - kindness, in comparison, is unconditional - the difference, in this case, is entirely driven by one’s internal philosophy and people can easily sniff out people being ‘nice’

as for attraction, i would argue that kindness in itself isn’t inherently attractive (but it can be when paired with other trait), but its a great trait to have regardless of sexual attraction cause get what…. kind people are usually good people, and good people are great to have in one’s life - even if it isn’t romantic or sexual

RRBeachFG2 · 2022-07-20T03:38:42+00:00

Kindness, they want to see you give something up for another’s benefit. Niceness is doing it without giving anything up or being asked to, hence why it isn’t nearly as appreciated.

niki-cole58 · 2022-07-20T03:49:15+00:00

Kind: having or showing a friendly, generous, and considerate nature Nice: pleasant; agreeable; satisfactory

I don’t see a significant different here. I know a person claims to be nice but may show a lack of kindness to a particular sub group of people. Ex: when someone is nice to you but rude to the restaurant server.

Personally speaking, I don’t get enjoy a relationship with someone who is always agreeable. Don’t be a doormat. Or as I have experienced, a bear rug.

mandoa_sky · 2022-07-20T05:00:44+00:00

yup.

kindness means "genuine niceness" ie someone who is nice/kind to people because they like doing it - without expecting a reward other than knowing for themselves they've done a "good deed".

these days "niceness" can mean someone who does "nice" things but expects to be rewarded for it.

Ludens0 · 2022-07-20T16:52:48+00:00

Niceness is empty. Having real virtuous values and behavior is an entirely different thing.

Captain-Stunning · 2022-07-20T17:24:22+00:00

"Nice Guys" are transactional-you only do XYZ to attempt to get what you think you deserve. And the moment you don't get what you think you deserve all hell breaks out. If you think spending money should get you sex, just get a prostitute or an Only Fans subscription and make it officially transactional.

Kind men aren't transactional. "If I get bonus points for doing the thing, great."

A nice guy holds the door open because he wants to be able to describe himself as a nice guy. A kind man holds the door open bc that's just what you do in American society. A nice guy keeps a running tally of all his good deeds to demonstrate how nice he is. A kind man has no need for that.

boomershack · 2022-07-20T17:39:22+00:00

Be kind (to people you like); never be nice, get's you nowhere.

Freelovehighway · 2022-07-20T23:45:36+00:00

Niceness is probably the number one thing I like in a women but there's plenty of nice women I know and it makes me like them as people but doesn't alter my attraction towards them. I imagine for women it's even lower in their estimation. The guy who is caricaturely nice might get away with it if he's good looking enough but in general people like others with a bit of an edge. Even my sis who was mourning the death of our dad was getting into a relationship and at the start she talked excessively about her now boyfriend and how nice he was. However, as she healed the niceness, or the vision of niceness that she built in her head had become something nearly unattractive and it took her to realise that while her bf is a nice guy, she had completely blown it up in her head to the point where all she could see was how nice he was. Around the start of pandemic she was having serious doubts but she is reflective and introspective and has managed to get over that rocky period and they're going strong. She has the type of personality though where she could bring out a different side to her boyfriend though, I could see him in other relationships being stuck with the 'nice but boring' label.

rhumel · 2022-07-21T00:00:01+00:00

I like how some TRP go full evolution on how women behave but somehow they discard the niceness/kindness instantly in favor of “they just like douches”.

Douches disguise themselves as nice/kind TO THEM, that’s why they buy into their acting, they think that he’s actually nice/kind for them or they wouldn’t pick the douche.

Why? Let’s go full “we’re just hominids with technology”: as is often said around here, women are screening men for those tasty genes to reproduce and they need the father to stick around at least enough to ensure the descendants survive to adulthood. So if women pick selfish pricks who don’t give a fuck her chances of surviving + the offspring surviving are really low: no deal.

So she finds an alpha and he happens to be interested in her, be kind, be nice: let’s go!! Then the alpha just fucked her and moved on, being as douchey as expected by TRP. What then? Oh that’s why there’re betas… bullshit. If we’re going full nature, betas do not take a pregnant woman under his care after an alpha procreated with her. That’s just not how it works in nature. This is a modern solution for a modern problem: nowadays you don’t really need a man to survive, so you can take the risk to go for the top alpha even if maybe he’s just going to spray his gametes and leave. If a beta comes to fill the father’s place: good enough, if not, meh I will deal with the situation.

So basically the primary instincts are to find a kind/nice male to procreate who happens to have the best available genes under that premise… unless modern life grants survival chances enough to drop the kind/nice requisite to a secondary trait. Enter today, where women do not prioritize kindness/niceness and would rather take the risk of mating with a douche on the rare chance he will stick around; if not, no biggies. That’s why today we don’t have the safe looks matching relationships of the past and that’s why middle aged men/women do not understand the situation the younger people are living: they were the last generation to prioritize kindness/niceness as a necessary trait thus giving random guys a chance.

There, this is an explanation for red pill who also says that women do find kindness/niceness attractive for blue pills. How does it sound?

Let's talk about niceness

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Title	Let's talk about niceness
Author	TastyCucurbits
Upvotes	29
Comments	135
Date	July 19, 2022 11:05 PM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/w36cm3/lets_talk_about_niceness/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/lets-talk-about-niceness.1124613 https://theredarchive.com/post/1124613