A lot of "left wing" people revert to "bootstraps" mentality when it comes to men and dating. Has anybody else noticed this?

PassedPawn_ · 2023-01-29T08:10:19+00:00

What I've noticed is that both the "left wing" and the right wing tend to do this with any issue that predominantly affects men. The notion of male hyper-agency paints all our disadvantages as individual shortcomings.

JacobYou · 2023-01-29T08:50:36+00:00

I'm there with you, buddy.

I have a very high-level degree. I earn quite decent money. I exercise and eat healthy every day, so I look alright.

Still struggle to get a single match on any app.

Family are always saying shit like 'maybe get a better pic/bio/etc' like, no. It just doesn't work.

It's designed to keep us unhappy so we end up paying them money.

While women are crippled by choice, men get none.

Edit; just to add, I am also neurodivergent. But I have crafted a good profile with advice & friends.

jacksleepshere · 2023-01-29T10:25:36+00:00

Most people are right wing when it comes to men’s problems and left wing when it comes to women’s problems.

ThrowawaySafety82 · 2023-01-29T13:27:42+00:00

I've been wanting to talk about this for a while. It drives me nuts. Go on r/datingadvice and you'll see a lot of this.

It's weird how feminism/female empowerment is so tied to career climbing and being a winner in capitalism.

"But I'm doing something with myself. What are you doing to be successful in life?" ...just trying to not lose it and make it through the week.

"I don't want to have to support someone. I want a partner who takes care of themself and has a future." ...I have my own apartment and buy my own things. I'm just poor and hate our economic system that is increasingly shitty for everyone. I just want to live a simple lifestyle and not have debts and work stress. "Well it's going great for us, check out these pics of my happy corporate workplace events! Maybe you should aspire to be something bigger!"

This is the vibe I get from a lot of women. They are liberal, think a few solar panels, electric cars and capitalistic reforms will fix the world. Everything is dandy.

I always thought left wing, or even just "progressive " women would be open to dating guys with less money/career ambition. It's not just the money thing, though. I'm sure there's someone out there. As a quiet, shy and now non-drinking guy, it's hard to go out and find someone. I quit online dating because it crushes my self-esteem, and I'm expected to be Mr. Conversation keeper.

2023-01-29T11:45:54+00:00

Western society thinks there is something wrong with a man, if he is not in a relationship and having sex by a certain age. Most people start dating in high school and they take their ability to attract a partner for granted. It's just something they can naturally do.

DemolitionMatter · 2023-01-29T10:41:11+00:00

I think two things can be true at the same time:

Men can take action to find a partner.
Some things outside of men's control, can prevent them from being successful in dating.

WhenWolf81 · 2023-01-29T12:50:45+00:00

I've had similar conversations. Here's my position.

Incels and people who struggle are symptoms of a broken society that feature unrealistic/poor values and expectations. These people are essentially victims. Which is why it's wrong to blame them, and not society's values, for their current situation. The people who do blame incels, generally have the cause and effect backwards. They believe these men are the cause of all their own problems. They believe this because they also benefit from privileges they're not aware of.

So, even though I blame society's values and expectations the people reinforcing it are just doing what they've been taught. So they too, in a sense, are victims of these values and expectations, even though they reap most of the benefits from it.

Basically, what needs to change are the values and expectations I mentioned above. And that's the part I'm puzzled on when it comes to how it becomes implemented and if it'll ever get to that point.

Alataire · 2023-01-29T09:00:38+00:00

If you look even vaguely - but without having sexist stereotypes of women and men - you can notice that feminism uses a lot of what they sometimes call "outdated social stereotypes". This goes from "women are better leaders", to "men can do everything themselves", to "men have to solve all our problems, we cannot depend on women".

The whole discussion is filled with contradictions, which are nowadays sometimes claimed as "intersectional issues", which is just a fancy word of claiming "what I say is right, what you say is wrong because you are a y, and I'm an x". The whole "privilege" also comes to mind, where they keep harping on about "you cannot see your own privileges", ignoring and denying the beams in their own eyes.

bottleblank · 2023-01-29T20:20:27+00:00

"No no. Incels ALWAYS have a choice. It's ALWAYS their fault. they CHOOSE to be hateful" But like.... No, They really don't. There's literally any combination of things that can keep one from being able to find a partner.

To add a little nuance to this:

There is, to some degree, a choice to be made in terms of how you present that experience to others. You can, to some extent, actively rationalise that "not AWALT" by observing normal relationships with normal average people, for example. That's certainly played a part for me in not becoming hateful, I'm sure. But I've been (un)lucky enough to watch guys recover very successfully from a place I recognise, I had just enough social experience to watch someone who had a socially unsuccessful time at school (much like myself) become socially successful in college and beyond (unlike myself). That was horrible for me, because I felt ever more left behind, and taunted by it. But even now I look at him and think "he's just this average dude who recovered from social failure, he gets relationships with ease, this is proof that women are not all horrible exploiting gold-diggers who demand male perfection". So I have that point of reference, which is one of the things that helps keep me in touch with sanity.

Not all guys have even that little context, though. Some even less socially successful than me, and many share my experience of observing dysfunctional relationships in parents and peers. Mix that with an absolute lack of (even platonic) social success in your own life, and things can look incredibly bleak. Society isn't shy about rubbing it in either, because "sex sells" (so it's heavily used in media) and outside of media, in the real world, there's an expectation that you have some amount of sexual experience and, potentially, a current partner. It's just assumed that any human who deserves it will have relationships.

For decades we've had terms like "virgin", "loner", "loser", "neckbeard", "incel" to describe unsuccessful men, often injected with righteous indignation and vitriol to imply that the recipient of those insults is invalid as a human being and deserving of scorn and rejection. Men are expected to be strong, socially successful, experienced, active protagonists, breadwinners, providers, protectors, and emotional rocks (even if only to a modest, modern degree, given that we live in a relatively safe and comfortable time).

Some men didn't grow up with the tools and resources to achieve that, and were not given any slack, even (or especially) as teenagers, as social competition took effect, leading them down paths of rejection and ostracisation, perhaps even vilification. I know what it's like to have rumours spread about you that you're some kind of furniture-throwing psycho, just because you're a bit anxious and autistic, despite not displaying any such violent behaviour and, in fact, being the victim of those who actively employ violence as a mechanism of gaining social status.

So, when you take these dark experiences of social abuse, you mix them with a widening experience gap, throw in a pinch of depression, and top that with a combination of absolute apathy or active aggression to any discussion about men experiencing these things, yes, of course some men are going to turn to a dark place. Of course they're going to develop hostile personalities and behaviours, as a defence mechanism against years and years of failure and abuse. They're going to try and rationalise how it's not their fault (because often it wasn't, and they're left alone to figure out how to assign blame so it doesn't further impact their own fragile mental health). They're going to seek others who are damaged and who understand, to try and find closure and support, even if those places are ultimately harmful.

Because, as the OP posits, it's often ascribed to a moral failing on the part of the man who's suffering. It's his fault for not "getting out there", his fault for "not trying", he's told "life isn't fair, get good", that he's "not entitled to sex", that nobody cares that "he can't get his dick wet", trivialising and belittling this extensive and perpetual trauma by comparing it to a child being upset that they can't have a cookie.

These people refuse to believe that it could be a result of the man being set back substantially by circumstances outside of his control, they strive to make everything his fault, his responsibility, because that's what a man is supposed to do - own it, and fix it. Never mind the fact that this man grew up abused, neurodiverse, trapped in a toxic family home, actively prevented by other people from any chance of recovery.

Then, of course, even if he does manage to escape those circumstances and start to heal, what then? How does he gain that missed social education as an older person, when school is a distant memory? How does he deal with the lack of social contacts through which to find a good job? How does he occupy his time when he has no social circle, when everybody else is in relationships and having children?

If he could overcome all of that, who would want a man who is psychologically damaged and unable to show relationship/sexual experience? He's never kissed, never mind had sex, how on earth does he hide that? That alone is a serious source of anxiety, which adds significant stress to the process of recovery, knowing that even if he did manage to get a chance with a woman, he's definitely going to show his nerves and his inexperience, and she's going to toss him aside with barely an opportunity to lean anything helpful for the next attempt. Everything becomes a negative feedback loop and endless catastrophising rumination because there's nothing positive present to suggest that there will be a successful outcome. So, paralysed by this, eventually they stop trying, because it's an impossibly long road to catch up on, and they feel cheated, lied to, that their life has been destroyed, laid to waste by those around them, entirely outside of their own control. Which, often, it was.

All of which is to say, very much more long-windedly than I intended, that given such a hostile start in life can absolutely prevent proper development or meaningful recovery in the absence of it, entirely due to outside factors. Whether that turns into external aggression may be something of a coin flip, depending on innate personality traits, the nature of the social environments they experienced, and the duration of the traumatic experiences.

Awesometjgreen · 2023-01-29T09:33:28+00:00

I agree but tbf what can you really say? The internet is full of bullshit "JuSt TaKe A ShOwEr" and "Go To ThE GyM" advice that may or may not help anyone. The issue is entirely the lack of support in this area that most men don't have. Tbh I don't think men can even get that from the internet unless you have some type of online discord/forum group, and you bet your ass you will be demonized for even trying to start something like that.

bakutehbandit · 2023-01-29T09:00:59+00:00

A lot of incels also admit that they are autistic or neurodivergent in some other way. Its a fact that neurotypicals can subconsciously notice and unintentionally shun or exclude autistic people.

They literally cannot pull themselves up by any bootstraps. Doesnt excuse the radical misogyny, but like have some sympathy at least.

darkstar1881 · 2023-01-30T00:10:07+00:00

Just like right wing individuals, a lot of left wing socially conscious people are hypocritical due to tribalism.

2023-01-29T16:13:38+00:00

The advice that actually helps men gets demonized. It comes from Pick Up Artists, and just because it feels slimy doesn’t mean it doesn’t work.

The problem is all of the other groups are highly invested in those men continuing to struggle and not succeed. Religions depend on it, “climb the ladder” corporations depend on it, politics depends on it, women getting free shit and driven places and wined and dined depend on it.

No one wants the ass in the giant hampster wheel to get off and actually get the 🥕 , they want them to keep moving toward the carrot, so the wheel moves and they profit off his labor.

So any advice that does help the man in question, makes the speaker an enemy to the left, right, and women in general

hottake_toothache · 2023-01-29T23:55:51+00:00

People don't care about men.

BKEnjoyer · 2023-01-29T11:36:19+00:00

Woke people are just narcissistic traditionalists.

Acceptable_Visit604 · 2023-01-29T12:14:48+00:00

Totally agree with this

artonion · 2023-01-29T15:24:29+00:00

This is a great post. I’ve definitely been guilty of that myself. That’s part of the reason why I’ve joined this subreddit, to get a better perspective etc

Njaulv · 2023-01-30T00:45:12+00:00

Well that is just pure ableism and victim blaming. These woke people are all woke and holier than thou, but if it comes to any group that they don't like they shit all over them and think it is ok to marginalize and hurt them.

Unnecessary_Timeline · 2023-01-30T12:02:44+00:00

I’m gonna link to a comment I made in MensLib, but I promise it was a really good discussion that agrees with your point that sexism against men is always blamed on individual men, rather than society at large.

I’m linking to my comment, but you NEED to read the one I’m replying to too, for it to make sense.

https://np.reddit.com/r/MensLib/comments/yd9ka5/_/itrpdgs/?context=1

Maldevinine · 2023-01-29T16:41:49+00:00

Okay, speaking from the perspective of someone who has done all of the bootstrapping and still fails miserably in every aspect.

What is the alternative?

You cant force people to be attracted to you. You cant force marriage or sex. There is no alternative to bootstrapping.

The only thing I could think of is banning dating apps. But that is already a bit of a strong concept.

Or that we need to address the atomisation of society. Like opening youth clubs or similar things.

There are a lot of problems regarding bootstrapping. Like if a man is unable to find a partner he is either not trying hard enough, a Incel, something is inherently wrong with him and so on. When in reality (at least in my opinion) often these men do nothing wrong. They might not be the best looking but not ugly. Most of them are neurodivergent, which certainly plays a role. I don't know why there is a certain threshold of attractiveness and neurotypicality these men don't pass.

brick1233 · 2023-01-29T08:19:17+00:00

They're not left wing. They're shitlibs.

Maffioze · 2023-01-29T11:38:42+00:00

Imo it's just not possible to live in a society where no one is blamed. The cause has to start somewhere and usually people see men as the cause of everything bad.

NeonCityNights · 2023-01-29T18:18:48+00:00

A lot of popular advice is a A lot of bootstrapping, that men just need to socialize more and work hard on their mental and physical wellbeing to get dates.

what is the alternative? what else can a guy do?

psychosythe · 2023-01-29T20:15:49+00:00

I've been on this soapbox at lot lately but I'm jumping on it again.

I think male activism really needs to start attempting to turn men away from conventional dating and romance as a means of life fulfillment.

I can't find it and I'm mad but I read an interesting, if shittily worded, article called something along the lines of 'what single men can learn from black women' or some such nonsense. But the point of it was black women have been single at much higher rates than the rest of the female populace for decades and have adapted, or attempted to, by putting that time and emotional energy into becoming pillars in their families and communities.

There is a frustrating amount of pushback from every male community on this topic too. One that makes it very easy for people to fall into the empathy gap and just dismiss men struggling with romantic issues as 'not wanting to be helped'. For all this is a leftwing progressive space, everyone in it and in other male communities struggling with this seems to opine for nothing less than trad-monogamy. Not to rag on it but it has a lot of issues, especially with how conducive it is to emotional isolation and co-dependency in the modern day.

We need to break the idea that conventional dating not being for you is a profound failure of being. But that also means personally accepting that it's not a good use of your time and that it is okay. That there are communities the world over in need of providers and protectors. Or at least your local humane society needs help.

BKEnjoyer · 2023-01-30T02:20:47+00:00

It’s really just anything social in general- I’m on the very high end of the autism spectrum and find it difficult to even make friends/meet people as a young guy. I don’t really have any connections from when it was way more accessible in high school and college and I still live at home so that makes it even more challenging. I feel I’ve missed out on so many life/social experiences many people that are young have and it just sucks.

I also had this really strange Title IX case where I was found “guilty” even though I know I didn’t do anything sexually, it was a proxy for just things I did due to not understanding socializing and having poor self esteem/confidence (which I still have to an extent). So in the dating world I don’t trust people and the ones that give me a chance tend to not even match or I’m not really attracted to them at all

rustbelthiker · 2023-01-29T11:38:13+00:00

Unfortunately working on yourself and being pleasantly persistent is the only good answer I've ever found. As much as I wish things were different, we have to accept reality as it is and deal the best we can with it. What's the realistic alternative?

BloomingBrains · 2023-01-31T08:09:46+00:00

Well, they do choose to be hateful (some of them). They don't choose to be sexless, which is what you probably meant to say. But yes, I agree.

A user (whose name escapes me at the moment) on this sub said something something really poignant once. It went something like "The sexual revolution was supposed to communize sex, but instead it really just added an element of capitalism to it."

I think that's totally true and it hearkens back to a deeper issue that a lot of radical woke people aren't very left, or even properly liberal, these days. Capitalism for thee but not for me. Its a form of female chauvinism like they used to have male chauvanism back in the Victorian period, where gentlemen openly dated mistresses but their wives being cheated on were expected to remain chaste and faithful. Now sex has become like an all you can eat buffet for most women, to the point where many may be bored of it and don't even appreciate what they have, while for a guy its still very much "You need to work your ass off to earn your keep." I call bullshit on that. Women need to put in some work to the relationship too. I'll try to impress her, but she better turn on the charm and try to impress me as well.

Also, they could never admit that a man could do nothing wrong but still be sexless, as that might mean *gasp* that not all women are perfect and have perfect judgement. Which contradicts their "women good, men bad" narrative that is the crux of their social power.

AdAcademic4290 · 2023-01-29T17:57:37+00:00

In America, an NHS, and a proper social security net would mean a lot more people would have more confidence to date people in lower economic groups.

As it is, any accidents or illness could condemn a family to bankruptcy or homelessness due to disgustingly high medical costs

Also, go learn ballroom dancing. Hardly any men do it, and you may find a romantic partner there, or via connecting with grandmothers etc!

MensEquality · 2023-01-29T23:29:37+00:00

Every man is an incel at some point in his life. And blaming men for a misfortune is victim-blaming/shaming, the same as it would be if a woman was down and out and we blamed her for her misfortune. An empathy gap exists when it comes to men by these sex-bigots (misandrists).

Fieser_Factsack · 2023-02-01T15:39:00+00:00

Hey first time poster here.

The reality is both is true. There's (nearly) always some things that you can do, no matter how fucked up you are or how bad your environment is, to getting closer to be intimate with other people. On the other hand yes the access to sex and intimate relationships varies vastly depending on the context.

I am of the believe that we humans are more dependent than free. One thing i learned is that i have more opportunities the less i feel/believe the dependency to my environment.

Moist-Quiet-647 · 2023-02-04T16:43:56+00:00

You are right on the observation, but feminists don't actually believe in their own rationalizations.

The "bootstrapization" of male issues by feminists is bullshit in the frankfurtian sense. That is, they don't really care whether the shit they say is true or not.

They just see we're challenging their views, we're suggesting that perhaps they should be nicer, more comprehesive, so they make up bullshit on the fly, with little attention given to ideological consistency.

The real problem is simply a lack of empathy. Feminists don't care. If they cared, they'd immediately understand why explanations like this are just bullshit. We wouldn't need to tell them why.

The question is: how to promote empathy for male "losers"?

I don't know, and I'm afraid it's impossible.

Motanul_Negru · 2023-01-29T12:42:32+00:00

Frankly you don't even have to include "and dating". If Lenin (who was a monster, but a monster who knew his business), would see how the modern "left" alienates men, he'd laugh himself into a stroke.

ADHighDef · 2024-09-17T11:22:54+00:00

A lot of "left wing" people still possess bourgeois morality and have zero understanding of dialectics.

FightOrFreight · 2023-01-29T10:57:49+00:00

In my opinion it's fine to be single just don't hate women. There's no excuse to hate people for their gender

nebthefool · 2023-01-29T09:19:58+00:00

I mean, "Incels" absolutley do choose to be hateful assuming we're using the term to identify people who use that label and also spread hateful rhetoric about humanity. What they didn't choose was to be alone, but they aren't forced into feeling any specific way.

What should be done about this is giving people the skills they need to deal with whatever situation they find themselves in. Plus, y'know, the standard left wing solution of social support so people have the breathing space to self improve instead of being locked into survival mode.

Ideally people need to learn to experience hardship without it having an undue influence on your personality. If being alone for extended periods of time is all it takes for you to be changed into a hateful individual, can you really say you have any control at all over your own path in life? Do you even have free will at that point? At what point does self determination no longer exist?

avarciousRutabega99 · 2023-01-29T20:24:59+00:00

Hot take:

Many guys who think and act like incels (take me for example) arent really and are just suffering from FOMO. They probably could find a partner thats right for them but they see people having fun, casually hooking up left and right and feel like they’re missing out on something which would ostensibly provide more satisfaction. A lot of the guys who get called creeps or misogynists online are really just hypergamous men who cant accept that they dont have the “privilege” of being able to choose some physically ideal partner (real or imagined one) thus it poisons them against the world and yes unfortunately, women in general. They treat attractive women as a commodities rather than real people.

Man, you gotta just put yourself out there and choose who chooses you. You cant be a normal looking guy and hit on the hottest women you’ve ever seen and expect not to get rejected. See who is actually attracted to you and go from there. Judge not lest ye be judged.

a-man-from-earth · 2023-01-29T10:14:32+00:00

People unable to form meaningful relationships is not uniquely male, the pressure to be in one as a male is bigger, though.

That said, what do you want us to do ? Most solutions proposed by the blackpill community are downright heinous. No, we are not going to allow arranged marriage or forced prostitution (prostitution is controversial in the blackpill community, arranged marriage not).

Some of these dudes are just hampered by poor social skills, and it's true that there are very few avenues to progress in that field, especially if you're neurodivergent, which some incels are. Doesn't help that there are forums out there which are harming these men even more by giving a twisted framework to see the world. That said many people will always struggle to create relationships even with aid and I agree that we should not see it as a personal failure on their part, and instead look to help them.

I was a dude that struggled to create meaningful relationships because I believed in the blackpill ideology back when they were still on reddit. I got out only because I established friendships and changed social environments. Being in an environment with less pressure to date also did wonders on my mind. The dating success came after.

edit: Replaced incel with blackpiller in case some people identify with the label without the ideology.

Unnecessary_Timeline · 2023-01-30T12:00:51+00:00

I’m gonna link to a comment I made in MensLib, but I promise it was a really good discussion that agrees with your point that sexism against men is always blamed on individual men, rather than society at large.

2023-02-17T23:28:09+00:00

DemoniteBL · 2023-02-23T17:38:59+00:00

There is 0 sympathy for lonely young men online. We MUST be one of these things: misogynysts, assholes, porn addicts, immature or unhygienic. Mental illnesses are not considered. Physical appearance (on a genetic level) is not considered.

Can't get a relationship? Take more showers. Still nothing? Grow up, women aren't your therapists. Still nothing? Clearly you have a false notion of relationships, stop watching so much porn. Still nothing? You must have a shitty personality. Still nothing? I think you just hate women.

People believe men become lonely because they are incels, even though it's the other way around. Incels are a result of the isolation and enstrangement young men experience in todays society. Incels aren't seen as victims, they're seen as perpetrators. But addressing the core issues that make men feel lonely and worthless would prevent them from spiraling into hateful and sexist groups like that. Instead they get blamed for their own misery. Partly they can be blamed, I'm not saying they're helpless, but they don't deserve to be demonized for it as if they chose that lifestyle from the beginning. They made wrong choices, but what led them to those choices is what nobody asks.

Same with porn addiction, depression and so on. Porn and sexualized content is being broadcasted to young men 24/7, now more than ever in a society that has integrated the internet so much into its functionality. And men who experience all of these things will naturally become depressed. Instead of allowing them to build a social network, they are simply told to seek therapy. Nobody even asks if they're already seeking it, if they are they must not be doing it hard enough, I guess. And then they get blamed by women for seeking social connection on a deeper level, which they were denied by everyone else in their life. The same women that tell them they wish men would be more open and vulnerable about their emotions. As a result, men obviously learn to further supress their emotions, bottling it up inside. This contributes to the higher suicide rates men have, a whole other topic that's swept under the rug.

And finally, if some people do actually acknowledge that some men experience these things without being at fault for it, they get told to just accept it. It's not that bad. You aren't entitled to a relationship. Life doesn't owe you that. Well, shit, life doesn't owe me food or shelter either, but some things are necessary to make life worth living. I'm not demanding someone to marry me, no, I can't force people to like me, obviously, but I do ask for sympathy and to stop the gaslighting. But there is no sympathy, only hatred.

YveisGrey · 2023-02-27T13:35:21+00:00

Well, they do choose to be hateful. I don’t think it’s accurate to say they choose to be single, because dating people requires their consent as well. But yeah, they definitely choose to hate on others that’s for sure.

Logen10Fingers · 2023-02-27T16:37:19+00:00

No no. Incels ALWAYS have a choice. It's ALWAYS their fault. they CHOOSE to be hateful

This is so true. There is no denying there are incels who are 'incels' because they don't view women in a healthy normal way, but can some people really not understand the fact that there are 8 billion people on this planet and that maybe some or even one guy who legitimately cannot get girls because of his looks?

Title	A lot of "left wing" people revert to "bootstraps" mentality when it comes to men and dating. Has anybody else noticed this?
Author	Forgetaboutthelonely
Upvotes	353
Comments	186
Date	January 29, 2023 7:31 AM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/10o1zbg/a_lot_of_left_wing_people_revert_to_bootstraps/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/a-lot-of-left-wing-people-revert-to-bootstraps.1149847 https://theredarchive.com/post/1149847

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