For the tradcons/red pillers who think that the current Western ideologies is responsible for high divorce rates- why is that socially conservative Middle Eastern countries have high divorce rates too?

PiastriPs3 · 2024-07-02T16:50:59+00:00

As someone who's parents come from a middle east adjacent culture and went to school with a lot of Arab boys and girls, I will say that middle eastern relationships tend to be very dysfunctional. It's a very materialistic culture with high dowry prices and commitment to strict gender roles and expectations. Abuse is rife and despite what the mullahs say, the under 40 generation are undergoing their own version of a sexual and gender revolution that is not yet acknowledged by out of touch elders. It's a society in flux, things are changing fast and there's a clash between the old and the new.

DXBrigade · 2024-07-02T17:50:34+00:00

Several factors :

higher marriage rate which usually means more divorce
a lot of people rush into marriage young with people they don't know that well
divorce is easy and destigmatized

AntonioSLodico · 2024-07-02T18:29:41+00:00

Conservative Islamic sects tend to be more open to allowing divorce than conservative Christian ones, right? Just like how conservative Christian sects tend to be more open some alcohol drinking than conservative Islamic ones. Could that be part of why the numbers are like that?

GH0STRIDER579 · 2024-07-02T16:25:58+00:00

Armenia's divorce rate is 25% Vietnam's is just 7%

LanaDivsca · 2024-07-02T12:30:36+00:00

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AidsVictim · 2024-07-02T23:27:20+00:00

For ex - These are the divorce rates in Middle Eastern (And muslim majority) nations -

Kuwait- 48%

Egypt - 40%

Jordan - 37.2%

Saudi Arabia - 37%

These are higher divorce rates than USA btw lol.

The US divorce rate is 42% and these countries have a much higher marriage rate.

Bro_with_passport · 2024-07-02T16:12:10+00:00

This is wayyy too surface level of an analysis. If you’d done an even cursory bit of research into Islamic culture, you’d know about the concept of “nikah mut'ah.” It’s effectively a legal form of prostitution, in which a man “marries” a prostitute for a set amount of time, and then is obligated to file for divorce at the end of the transaction. So your univariate analysis was lumping in actually married couples, in with men using legal loopholes to pay for sex.

Not to mention the obvious, but western tradcons aren’t Muslims. They’re Christians with wildly different belief systems and cultures, so their traditionalism isn’t comparable to Christian traditionalism.

giveuporfindaway · 2024-07-02T19:23:01+00:00

A better proxy for conservatism is high birth rates. A "trad" childless couple is faux conservatism. Meanwhile Mennonites and Ultra Orthodox Jews are doing just fine. And many Muslim women bypass the pre-marital sex restriction by instead taking it up the ass before marriage (no hymen broken). There really aren't any conservative countries anymore, just conservative groups within countries.

TapZealousideal5974 · 2024-07-02T12:42:47+00:00

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obese_tank · 2024-07-03T01:29:35+00:00

Yet if one looks at Middle Eastern countries which are relatively socially conservative/they participate in arranged marriages/pre marital sex and even free gender mixing is extremely taboo.... socially conservative views on women and female gender roles.

If the common excuses made for the lack of marriage stability in the West is - Promiscuity/female Financial Autonomy/ Liberalism it seems to me that the other end of the spectrum is doing even worse lol.

Your mistake is assuming that western social conservatism is analogous to MENA social conservatism. That is not the case, since they are based on different religions.

Marriage is considered a lifelong commitment in Christianity. Whereas in Islamic law(at least most interpretations), a husband may divorce his wife freely and a wife may divorce his husband by demonstrating some wrongdoing(adultery, failure to provide)

babazuki · 2024-07-02T16:04:33+00:00

Your own source tells you why.

"Experts believe this trend has been driven by a combination of economic pressures, evolving societal norms, legal reforms and, above all, the changing role of women."

Feminism is taking over. Did you read the article?

kongeriket · 2024-07-03T00:33:11+00:00

Your source is a marginal blog that offers no source except an article from Arab News that isn't about divorce at all. His other sources are... his own blog. LOL.

I'm not saying the divorce rates aren't high in some MENA countries, but I am saying that your source is sus. Random unsourced quotes. One of them is traceable to a more decent source, but the other one seems to be appearing just on his blog.

These are higher divorce rates than USA btw lol.

This is demonstrably false.

According to the American Psychological Association, approximately 40-50% of first marriages end in divorce. The divorce rate for second marriages is even higher, with approximately 60-67% of second marriages ending in divorce. [sauce]

None of your numbers are higher than the US.

Not only that but an extremely poor nation where women are completely dependant on men and ranks extremely low on all Gender equality lists i.e Pakistan has a divorce rate of 34.7%.

Pakistan has 240 million people. About half of those aren't poor, let alone extremely poor. It's a lot more complicated country than the stereotypes would make one believe.

If the common excuses made for the lack of marriage stability in the West is - Promiscuity/female Financial Autonomy/ Liberalism it seems to me that the other end of the spectrum is doing even worse lol.

First of all, it's not doing worse by your own data.

Secondly, yes Sharia Law in family affairs is terrible. This is news only to those who get their information on Sharia Law from conspiracist blogs.

YveisGrey · 2024-07-03T01:39:10+00:00

I would guess it’s because people marry younger in those countries and divorce isn’t prohibited in Islam like it is in Christianity so culturally it’s probably more acceptable.

lastoflast67 · 2024-07-02T15:09:02+00:00

Becuase of america. People forget the US's no1 export is not weapons or dollars its culture. All the countries listed are massively influenced by western culture, obviously they are not western but you will find mcdonalds, dating apps, youtubers etc. The west is the world hegemon and that means its cultural infections spread far and wide especially with the internet.

Realistic_Guava9117 · 2024-07-02T18:53:30+00:00

Human nature is polyamorous. For various reasons, people try to force themselves to be monogamous.

my_sweet_friend · 2024-07-02T13:11:06+00:00

I think red pill is very toxic and dangerous narrative cause it starting to grow with lighting speed. Probably it is censored on mainstream medias in the west, but let's face it medias alredy lost a battle with social networks, youtube and such.

I do find that modern feminism ruining first of all girls and women a some extent, but red pill is even more toxic cause I have a feeling that literally is ongoing war between males and females, especially in America. I don't know for some western parts of Europe though how much that influence affecting people, maybe in UK the most, but definitelly I can't see it as a good thing.

I don't know what is wrong to have independent women? I like when girl is educated, confident, when I can talk with her about various things. When I can have a fun with her not just in bedrom for christ sake. Sure she should be loyal and men too, that should be one of the bases for successful relationship, but to just keep her at house to cooks and cleans. For me stupid take.

As for subject I believe reasons for high divorces rates in ME are different like those in the west. Personally while money it is important everywhere and yes when you don't have a money you feel miserable... but in the west materialism is on a very high note. That is a way of life basically. Rarely anything is taken unconditionally and spontaneously.. families, friends, relationships... I mean when I said unconditionally I don't think that just one side should invest time, emotions, effort, ambiotion and other don't.. but also when you go into something you should go because you want to, because you don't feel any bother to do something for that person. You shouldn't measure how much someone gave something and to compete in that. Stupid example. In 2025. I will pay 70% of annual electric bill, and my wife rest. But in 2026. it might happen that I pay 60% and my wife 40%. I don't care as long I see that both parties participate in something. I don't need everything to be 50/50. As long as there is respect, loyality, commitment, effort, admiration... we are superb. Money comes and goes I don't need to make a billion in my life to be happy. I don't freaking care for Hollywood lifestyle and their way of happines full of drugs and pills and drinks.

And in ME since they don't get such a money, though Saudi Arabia surely does lol probably there are other problems? It is funny to see that even 70% of men in Pakistan inititate a divorce lol I would like to hear their reasons. xD

-Shes-A-Carnival · 2024-07-02T14:11:28+00:00

no one is thinking about other countries and cultures when they discuss the phenomenon in their own, hasnt islam always allowed divorce?

Gold_Supermarket1956 · 2024-07-02T13:40:58+00:00

Well... most tradcons now are ex 304s and onlyfans stars case and point gwen the milk maid... goes by gwengwiz on OF and still has it up while pretending to be trade con because she said they can't afford the bills yet with out her OF money

Salt_Alternative_86 · 2024-07-02T18:36:37+00:00

1) legalized prostitution through temporary marriages drive up the divorce rate.

2) apples and oranges as middle eastern men are not, and never will be, western men.

3) cultural changes in the west did raise divorce rates as we can see from western divorce rates pre and post cultural shift.

4) these cultural changes are not limited to the west in our modern age of digital communication, intercontinental travel and mass media.

5) finally, 1 through 4 are all moot because all the cultural changes did was enable female nature that was ALWAYS there. Feminism didn't make women do anything, it just let women choose to do what they wanted to choose, which is exactly what happened.

Independent-Mail-227 · 2024-07-02T12:53:10+00:00

These are higher divorce rates than USA btw

US -- 2021 - 2.5 - 6.0 - 41%, only Kuwait is higher by 2021 numbers.

"The most common (divorce method) is talaq, which literally means “release.” Talaq is a unilateral repudiation of the wife by the husband, and does not require the wife's consent. She must observe a waiting period of approximately three months to be sure that she is not pregnant; then she is free to remarry."

"Religious courts have jurisdiction over all matters of “personal status”. This includes most family law matters such as marriage, divorce, child custody, and adoption or guardianship. Consequently, there is no civil marriage or divorce in Jordan" So I have fucking zero idea how you're getting jordan divorce numbers.

"An irrevocable divorce in Egypt, on the other hand, doesn’t allow the husband to visit—but he still has to supply money and food – and the husband cannot get the woman back as a wife"

Not only that but an extremely poor nation

"Kuwait is one of the richest countries in the world"

Saudi Arabia have half the per capita gdp of the US BUT also lacks the debt that inflate the US numbers, Saudi Arabia is basically far more rich than the US.

Pakistan has a divorce rate of 34.7%.

(1) "In Islamic divorces, the concept of equitable distribution is guided by the principles of justice and fairness." (2) "The financial contributions of each spouse during the marriage are considered, and assets are divided accordingly."

If the common excuses made for the lack of marriage stability in the West is - Promiscuity/female Financial Autonomy/ Liberalism it seems to me that the other end of the spectrum is doing even worse lol.

You also have a very biased view of the islamic world, not everything is sand and cactus and the american influence keep bleeding in, you don't need to BE promiscuous, you don't need to HAVE financial autonomy, you don't need to HAVE liberalism, everything you need is to have this mindset seeping trough the walls.

69Txcouple69 · 2024-07-02T14:36:52+00:00

Because they are adapting western ideologies. Why do you think those cultures are taking such harsh stances against the west? They mostly fund our culture and lifestyle as highly decadent.

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HinduProphet · 2024-07-03T05:13:55+00:00

In some societies, sex is associated with mostly pleasure, in some societies, sex is associated with mostly reproduction.

Both suck.

erinmonday · 2024-07-03T06:05:42+00:00

What’s going on with the Indians? They’re hyper conservative

FiliusHades · 2024-07-03T08:21:13+00:00

women are never happy

FalconRelevant · 2024-07-03T17:33:21+00:00

There's a reason suicide rates for women dropped significantly after "no fault" divorce was legalized.

Tradcons they either buy into a delusion of a rose tinted past that never truly existed, or want to go back to a time when they could abuse their wife without consequences.

JadeGrapes · 2024-07-03T18:28:16+00:00

I think it's crazy how everyone has jerks in their life... but then assumes every person who is married is magically is worth staying married to for life.

C'mom now, you know some people are awful or change to awful. Why is the default belief that they become and stay WONDERFUL to be married to when you can't even have a civil dinner with them?

Youngrazzy · 2024-07-02T14:18:33+00:00

They have a totally different culture when it comes to marriage. A Muslim man can have multiple wives. Also Divorce is not look at the same.

kvakerok_v2 · 2024-07-02T14:31:17+00:00

I think the divorce culture is derivative from two things:

The idiotic idea that marriage is the "happy end". Even Bollywood Indian movies show weddings as a sort of curtain closer, where the happy couple rides into sunset. Which is absolute bullshit.
The loss of sanctity of marriage. Clearly the divorce rates show that even in allegedly "deeply religious" countries, divorce is becoming no big deal. Obviously people don't believe the whole "United under God" spiel.

Perfect_Sir4820 · 2024-07-02T13:55:58+00:00

The problem in the west is that women divorce their husbands for flimsy reasons and are generously rewarded by the courts for doing so. Simply looking at divorce rates among various countries gives no insight into the costs and benefits of such decisions.

obviousredflag · 2024-07-02T13:39:00+00:00

Because whatever God anyone is praying to WANTS the divorce. Why would it happen otherwise?

This-Adhesiveness-52 · 2024-07-02T22:30:04+00:00

Women are just becoming more shitty to live with all over the world, feminism and dating apps have made women worse, they will never be happy dating equal men, only the top 20% that has it all, the looks, status and money will do.

divorce rate for lesbiens is 75%,

heterosexual 50% (3/4 initiated by the women) and gay men only 15%

With the lesbiens at 75% the only conclusion is that men are not to be blamed for being difficult to live with.

nightcall379 · 2024-07-02T13:31:32+00:00

For the tradcons/red pillers who think that the current Western ideologies is responsible for high divorce rates- why is that socially conservative Middle Eastern countries have high divorce rates too?

Because the whole world, the Islamic world included, is getting westernized

DarayRaven · 2024-07-02T13:08:18+00:00

What does this have to do with the TRP ?

It doesn't advocate for marriage as the alternative to the current state of dating

pg_throwaway · 2024-07-02T15:23:52+00:00

These are higher divorce rates than USA btw lol.

US divorce rate is >50%, so, I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Anyways, the Middle East is not conservative in the western sense. It's Islamic which is a whole different thing entirely. You can't call the Middle East "conservative" in the context of how the west uses the term.

goo_wak_jai · 2024-07-02T15:35:17+00:00

It's simple. Western imperialism. Any well-read, well-informed individual that keeps up-to-date with global news and/or are not from the West generally know who is always the instigator of 'drama' on the global stage.

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