On Attraction

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December 7, 2015

Summary: Just like guys love nice tits and skinny women but aren't looking for the skinniest woman or the woman with biggest tits, women are the same. Women are attracted to a few non-negotiable alpha traits. They are not looking for the biggest guy, they are not looking for the most aggressive guy, they aren't even necessarily looking for the leader of the group. They are looking for their favorite out of everyone who has these non-negotiable traits. As a guy, you would never be attracted to a fat chick. However, once a girl is skinny, whether or not you like her is no longer dependent on skinniness, and it now depends on other traits.


This is something I've been thinking over for a while and wanted to write a bit on. There is an idea among guys that because women are attracted to certain traits, you need to have the highest level of those traits possible. This is untrue.

What Guys Want

Imagine the stupidity of a girl hearing "guys like skinny girls", and deciding to be as skinny as humanly possible, and then expecting you to see her as the most attractive.

Out of 50 skinny girls, who are you going to be the most attracted to? Is the answer "the skinniest one"? Of course not. Once the girl is skinny, it all comes down to preference. Maybe you like brunettes. Maybe you like blondes. Maybe you like girls with huge tits, maybe you like small tits, maybe you want a submissive girl, who cares what the fuck you want.

But my point is that there is a non-negotiable trait, and for guys that trait is appearance. She has to be of a certain weight, and that's it. When guys talk about their preference, the words "skinny girls" don't need to be said. You say you have a fantasy for gamer chicks? I am not imagining a fat gamer chick. I'm imagining a skinny one.

The fact that a hot girl will be skinny is not up to discussion, it is non-negotiable and is not up to preference. The preference is to do with WHICH skinny girl you will like.

That is the world of men, now we'll continue to the world of women.

What Women Want

The collection of women's non-negotiable traits are what we call "alpha". These traits involve appearance, but are actually more focused on personality and behavior. We talk a lot about what these traits are, but let's just sum it down to: confidence, charm, dominance, physical fitness, etc.

There's a few more, but you get the picture. The point I want to make is that these traits are non-negotiable for women, and when women talk about attractive men, they also assume that these traits are a given, just like we assume that any attractive woman would be skinny.

How many times have you heard a girl saying "I really like nerdy guys!" and thought that she's a liar? She's not lying. She really does like nerdy guys.

But her definition of nerdy guys PRESUMES that they have the non-negotiable traits. She doesn't mean fat basement-dwelling neckbeards that lack any basic social skills.

She means a confident, charming, dominant, physically fit guy, who happens to be into whatever nerdy stuff she's into.

I can't stress this enough: it is the same as guys being attracted to a girl. When you say "I am attracted to brunettes", you are actually saying "I am attracted to brunettes given that they are already skinny girls with good bodies and a nice face."

My next point relates to the idiotic assumption guys have that girls will flock to the most muscular or manly guy around.

You Only Need to be Alpha, You Don't Need to be the MOST Alpha.

Being manly and muscular are just non-negotiable traits. They are not the only metric. They are your BARRIER OF ENTRY. When entering the sexual market place, there is an entrance exam that tests these traits. If you fail, you do not qualify as a fuckable guy.

However, once you pass, you are no longer judged by those traits. It no longer matters if you're bigger than some other dude, it no longer matters if you're more aggressive or dominant than some other dude. At this point, women will pick entirely based on their own individual preference, and what matters is whether you fit whatever arbitrary preference she has. Maybe to her the hottest dudes are CEO business types, maybe it's musicians, maybe it's actors, maybe it's bodybuilders, maybe it's guys with long hair, maybe it's hairy dudes, maybe it's guys with a pretty face, there's a million brands of alpha and thanks to hypergamy she can pick her favorite. She can also change her preference, today she's attracted to you, and tomorrow she'll realize some other alpha is more attractive to her. But it won't be because he's more alpha than you, he only needs to be alpha enough to be attractive. You could be the most alpha guy and she'll still find someone less dominant, someone less confident, someone smaller than you, just because that guy clicked her right buttons. Just like with you: some girl will attract you not because she's skinnier or has nicer tits than your current girl. She'll attract you because she's at least pretty enough, and beyond that it'll be some arbitrary reason depending on your own personal taste.

Some Examples for the Non-Believers

  • A study has shown that the bodies girls find the most attractive are much leaner than what men think. This is mostly because of their fantasy where they want everything to be totally natural, you need to be a natural alpha, you need to be naturally charming and confident, and yes, they also expect you to be naturally muscular. Their definition of naturally muscular is fucking retarded -- seeing as they think Brad Pitt in Fight Club is the ideal body -- but the point is that they aren't looking for The Rock. They're just looking for a hot guy.

  • The star of the Fast & Furious series is Paul Walker. He's not the biggest guy there, that's the Rock. He isn't the alpha of the group by any definition, that's Vin Diesel. How come he's seen as the most attractive of the group by most females? Because they don't care if someone is manlier than Paul Walker. Paul Walker is already manly enough. At that point, it doesn't matter.

  • Who are the hottest men who ever lived? Body builders? Nope. James Dean, Brad Pitt, George Clooney, DiCaprio, whatever name you can think of who is associated with sex appeal is not the biggest guy around. But you know what? That guy will always be confident. He will always have a nice body. He will always be charming. He will always be dominant.

  • What about the most popular male pornstar among females? James Deen, by far. Doesn't have the biggest cock, doesn't have the nicest body. He's also 5'8. He isn't the most alpha in any way. You can argue he has a more pleasant face, but even if that was the metric, there's enough pornstars with virtually flawless faces that aren't more popular than him. Why him? Probably because he is the most charming dude there, he is more than dominant enough, ultimately it really doesn't matter why. The point is that he is not the manliest guy in porn by any stretch of the imagination, but he's also not a beta. He undeniably has all of the non-negotiable traits, and that's all he needs. From that point, he becomes the best literally just through personality and charm.

Lessons Learned:

  1. AWALT. They are all attracted to a few non-negotiable traits. It's crazy that in the anger phase we have a hard time accepting this, because guys are also universally attracted to a few very specific non-negotiable traits.

  2. The non-negotiable traits for women to be attracted to you are "Alpha", that's all being Alpha is. Nothing more. Therefore...

  3. ...Being Alpha is only a non-negotiable prerequisite to attract women, it's not the metric. Just like guys don't need the skinniest girl, girls don't need the biggest guy. They just want a big guy.

tl;dr: Stop obsessing whether you're the biggest manliest guy around. Women don't care who is the biggest or manliest. All they want is someone who is big and manly enough. Once you have reached that point, you are your own brand of alpha. It no longer matters whether someone is more alpha than you.

Post Information
Title On Attraction
Upvotes 777
Comments 166
Date 07 December 2015 12:21 AM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit TheRedPill
Link https://theredarchive.com/post/38724
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/3vq4qt/on_attraction/
Similar Posts

Red Pill terms found in post:
alphabetaAWALTnaturalhypergamydominancethe red pill

[–]austinshepard1396 points97 points  (32 children) | Copy

Women want a guy who’s lifestyle and choices result in a great body — not the guy who stares at himself in the mirror all day while doing bicep curls and sipping protein shakes:

56.9% of women want him to enjoy doing physical things and naturally look that way 37.3% think that men should look good naturally without any effort

Don't trick me with those fake muscles you had to work for!

[–]trp_dude19 points20 points  (2 children) | Copy

What women SAY they want and what they actually want are not always the same. The survey may be accurate but probably not.

[–]rpscrote9 points10 points  (0 children) | Copy

yeah I dont buy it. The real test of women's preferences will never be accurately captured by a computer test, because women's preferences are almost entirely based on how it makes them feel, and computer tests dont make you feel shit.

[–]WingedHussarx0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

The survey is accurate to what their eyes are pleased with. But that doesn't mean women don't fuck/cheat on with a guy looking nothing like that

[–]TRPmmm7 points8 points  (23 children) | Copy

Well yeah, it's simple isn't it? Attraction serves to procreate with the best genes. Excessive muscles and steroids aren't indicative of the neutral alpha physique.

[–]pantsoffire31 points32 points  (21 children) | Copy

Triathlete versus Body Builder. Or cute, functional, balanced girl next door versus Fake titted Model.

[–]2 Senior Endorsed Contributorvengefully_yours15 points16 points  (16 children) | Copy

I've experienced this. I've never been a body builder, more of a power lifter that got the mass form my job in a war. (Mind boggling amounts of effort) I'm not very tall but very muscular, and most girls aren't into a 5'8 man with no neck and 20+ inch arms. Some are, a few really are, but to be bluntly honest, I am too big and don't have enough symmetry because my max didn't come from a gym. I'm working on the symmetry, but I look like a tank and thanks to muscle weighing so much, I'm heavy as hell.

Girl gravitate to the leaner men, roughly 17" arms, 40" chest, with a V shaped shoulder to waist ratio. I have a V shape, but the 52" chest is just too bulky for most. Not much I can do about it, it's not easy to get smaller so I have to work on the symmetry and definition of what I already have. You don't want to be as thick as I am if you want to fuck lots of girls. I do ok, but a Brad Pitt type will get the pussy much easier.

[–]Endorsed ContributorThotwrecker3 points4 points  (3 children) | Copy

If you look like a tank, my experience is you will look really good once you cut hard. I mean, you know your shape more than I do, but I had the tank appearance due to me getting way into lifting without dietary management (high muscle high fat, 6'2") and I've been cutting weight since October and it's already getting great results. If you're lean already and still experiencing chicks thinking you're too big, then disregard my comment, but if you're rocking the powerlifter "musclefat" look, then try leaning up.

[–]2 Senior Endorsed Contributorvengefully_yours1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy

Yours is stretched out. I'm compact, no matter how cut I am, if I wear anything that is loose fitting I look fat. Not neckbeard fat, but thick. My chest is huge, and it makes me look funny, think short offensive lineman or silverback gorilla and you get the idea. Due to my age, my abs can be defined but they still protrude, giving me a beer belly appearance. I'm barrel shaped through my ribcage.

I've been cutting, and I've been absolutely ripped in the past, and still I am not seen as the immensely strong man, I'm seen as the short heavyset guy. I'm hard on myself because the military harped on me constantly, assuming I was fat, out of shape and ate junk food because I'm thick. By BMI morbidly obese doesn't even start to describe it, which I find hilarious.

If I were 6'2, I'd be slaying damn near every pussy I see. Instead, I gotta work for it. Just how it is man, I work with what I got.... And I do ok.

[–]1cover201 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

I thought the protruding belly, which I have too, is due to the shape of the ribcage rather than age. When I lifted, my ribcage expanded to a barrel shape too at the same time my chest increased, so I could never have the "tight abs" look either.

Pro athletes don't look muscular, just large, if they wear modest clothing. Suits look OK on them but not great in my opinion, because there's too much mass there -- too blocky, even the guys that are 6 foot 6 inches tall. That's how a guy like an offensive lineman looks to me. All the parts of the suit -- lapels, tie, etc. are very wide, but there's no choice with a suit with that body shape. Maybe you should be a bit trashy in the way you dress to showcase the muscles, if you want to put across strength.

[–]2 Senior Endorsed Contributorvengefully_yours2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

That could be, I just know my belly sticks out but it's hard as a rock.

Suits are made to make you look wider, especially in the shoulders. I look like shit in them. What works for me is a black t shirt that fits tight around my chest and arms, jeans, and work boots. The bad boy gearhead look, and my vehicles extend that image. Loud, old, no interior, rumbling, obnoxious, and crazy fast vintage muscle with huge tires and a sinister nose in the weeds rake, but no stinkbug jacked up rear. My image screams "not ltr potential, but I'll fuck you like a wild animal." I used to try to hide it, but fuck that I've embraced who I am and how I flaunt it.

[–]Purecorrupt3 points4 points  (11 children) | Copy

Just curious - how much do you weigh/bf% estimate? I don't know mine and the specific detail of chest measurements goes over my head.

[–]2 Senior Endorsed Contributorvengefully_yours2 points3 points  (10 children) | Copy

I've been losing bf% and I'm solid everywhere, no softness, no double chin, no saggy skin and no man tits. I'd guess around 15% bf, maybe as high as 18%, but the measurement system breaks down when you're short lie me and have this much muscle. My skin feels like it did when I wrestled in high school, tight, solid muscle under it, no padding.

A few weeks back the VA weighed me at 285, I've been gaining muscle all summer, mostly due to trt and the work I did. My shoulders and arms are well defined as are my legs, I have a little fat on my abs, let over from when I was sick three years ago and couldn't breathe. Chemical exposure fucked up my lungs for six months.

I wear 38 waist jeans, 40s slide off my ass immediately, 38s fall off in about three hours of movement. 52" chest, 20" arms(they've gotten smaller) 21" neck, 28" thighs, 9.5" wrists. Some girls like it, some want the thin guys. My hands dwarf girl hands, they look like little kids hands in mine, so submissive girls really like me. My bench was way over 400 the last time I maxed, I do curl reps with 90-120, Flys with 65 to 85 in each hand, just to tone and work on definition.

Being this big without the symmetry of a bodybuilder is not universally attractive.

[–][deleted] 13 points14 points  (9 children) | Copy

I've said it before and I'll keep saying it every time you post this horseshit: there is no such thing as as an accidental world class bodybuilder. At 5'8 and the weight and bf% you're saying you are, you are claiming to be an accidental world class bodybuilder.

My guess is that you're fat as fuck and too delusional to realize it. Pics or stfu with this bullshit.

[–]2 Senior Endorsed Contributorvengefully_yours0 points1 point  (7 children) | Copy

I even say I look fat, not ripped, not a body builder, no symmetry, ok definition, and that my job filled me out rather than a gym, in essence an example of what not to be, and you get butthurt because I'm stronger than you are.

Jesus kid, outliers exist. It's always been very easy for me to gain mass and strength, corn fed farm kids do that. Easy might be relative, because you might not be capable of what I've done, but it doesn't make you less of a man or some shit if you haven't or couldn't work like I did.

I'm not going to out myself and put my brothers careers in jeopardy to satisfy your need to not feel inferior. I'm not exactly thrilled about not being able to reach most of my back, or find clothes that fit without being tailored to me.

I have a 9 second street car, and a bunch of 13 to mid 11 second cars as well, does that make you butthurt too? I mean shit, I know there's men far stronger than I am, much better looking, with faster cars, speak more languages, and bigger dicks than mine, but I don't whine about it online. Instead I up my game, build faster shit, and learn to use the dick I have more effectively, that's why I'm stronger than you are...

You whine online, I invested my time in things that mattered to me.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (6 children) | Copy

I'm solid everywhere, no softness, no double chin, no saggy skin and no man tits. I'd guess around 15% bf, maybe as high as 18%

A few weeks back the VA weighed me at 285,

And you're 5 feet 8 inches? You are absolutely delusional.

It's always been very easy for me to gain mass and strength, corn fed farm kids do that.

LOL. Being from the #1 ag county in the US i know what "farm kids" look like.

because you might not be capable of what I've done,

What's that? Lie on the internet or be fat? You're right I have no desire to do that.

it doesn't make you less of a man or some shit if you haven't or couldn't work like I did.

Oh don't worry. I don't feel inferior to you in any way.

I'm not going to out myself and put my brothers careers in jeopardy to satisfy your need to not feel inferior.

Post anything that even remotely proves any of your claims. I'm not asking you to post a pic of your face next to your SS card and birth certificate.

I'm asking for anything that can even remotely begin to prove that you are 285 and under 20% BF.

that's why I'm stronger than you are...

If you would like to post videos of you doing any strength related tasks I will do the same and we can see what's what.

You whine online

And you lie online.

[–]2 Senior Endorsed Contributorvengefully_yours0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy

The butthurt is strong with you. Why does it matter to you soooooooo much? I lie about some things, like where I live exactly, what I do for a living, shit like that, but I have zero reason to lie about my size. If anything I'd rather be much smaller and far better looking. You're the only one who is suffering from a sandy mangina on here, we'll regarding my size. I bet you don't believe I benched 265 in high school and weighed only 175 or so. Didn't do much lifting back then either, just farm work and wrestling. Tell ya what, a bud shot thisof me back in July or August. It's about the only pic taken of me in ten years or so. Yeah its a small pic, but its all you're getting.

My girl in Chicago is laughing at how upset you're getting. She wants me to ask... You mad bro?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Also, all his numbers are suspiciously off....17 inch arms and a 40 inch chest? I have 13 inch arms and my chest is 46, and I'm a regularly proportioned dude. What the fuck kinda ratio is 17:40? Massive arms and no chest?

[–]donkey_democrat2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy

The key is the steroid use and low fat which produces an unnaturally muscled appearance. This turns of girls, because it looks strange, not because they hate "bodybuilders". Any man who builds muscle up until there full genetic potential will be huge and within the green zone.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (2 children) | Copy

Yeah, I think this is along the same lines as girls not wanting to lift because they'll get huge.

There's no such thing as too big if you're actually natty. Guys on steroids look neither natural nor healthy. As a bodybuilding dude I can appreciate and enjoy the aesthetic perfection of some of the really huge guys but I don't think women would.

Women want a natural alpha and an alpha has no need to cheat.

[–]The__Tren__Train0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

how is using steroids cheating?

[–]marcel80111 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

yea the myth that recreational use of steroids = cheating needs to die. The only time steroid use should be considered cheating is when you're competing in a competition that explicitly states that you cannot use them.

[–]RiseAboveRuin3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

To get excessive muscles that would start raising red flags would require a lot of time and gear, a lot more than you probably think.

[–]1cover203 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

Even though I am a guy, I have enough understanding of game to answer this. She doesn't want stuff you worked for. She doesn't value your effort but your effortless ability, your talent, your genetic endowment.

Hard work is, in a sense, cheating. It's that way in lots of business situations too, even athletics. Think of all the athletes who make it look so easy -- because they are talented and also worked 20 years to develop that "easy" skill. Well the work doesn't get the chick wet, but the skill does.

This is one problem with obvious levels of bodybuilding. You'll make her think of the slaves in Spartacus. Those bulging muscles are obviously the result of effort. Effort is OK, apparently it's what you like doing, but it doesn't turn her on. Certainly not if she's thinking of you slaving away to get the muscles.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

How much do you think culture and social conditioning plays into this? For instance, I'm not much of a social media whore. I post frequently on the instagram (berate me if you must.) about my outdoor adventures, fitness, and general log of moments I think are cool. I have a really good physique, but I'm definitely not huge. I'm medium as fuck. Now on the few and far between posts where my physique is visible in pictures, I don't get a ton of validation. However, check out any run of the mill instafamous fitness man, and all you see is protein sipping bodybuilders. Thousands of likes.

By the quote above, it makes it seem that I would receive more validation. However, the opposite is observed and seems to nullify OP's claim. While it is in my ego's best interest to approve of OP, perhaps the culture of instagram (and therefore American millennials) shapes young women to like the mirror obsessed, bicep pumped bro.

[–]Boovs4life0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Is there a RP advice on how one can be charming? I've been told i have a great personality but i don't know what the difference is between personality and charm?

[–]nicememeboss47 points48 points  (3 children) | Copy

Hahaha im really on the floor.

Zyzz is the preffered male body. 10/10.

Praise him

[–][deleted] 36 points37 points  (1 child) | Copy

Don't worry brah, we're all gonna make it.

[–]augizzz99921 points22 points  (0 children) | Copy

We might make it to the sauna, but not out.

[–]ThrowawayYourHoodUp4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

The legacy lives on. We muzz in his honour.

[–][deleted] 84 points85 points  (6 children) | Copy

There is a mathematical function called a Heaviside function that describes this very well. It's either zero or one, so below a certain threshold it sets the whole function equal to zero while above it has no effect (multiplying by one).

Pure attraction traits are Heaviside functions. You need to have them at a certain level but they don't matter very much beyond that.

[–]squatbro50 points51 points  (2 children) | Copy

I never thought I would see the Heaviside function related to TRP. What a wonderful world.

[–][deleted] 23 points24 points  (0 children) | Copy

Thats how I rate girls. Zeroes or ones. Ones meaning Id fuck them.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

Life makes a lot more sense of you look at it through the lens of math and statistics.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

You could also refer to the indicator function: the value is one if the man (x) is in the set alpha (A) or zero if not.

[–]Clapboom5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy

Name checks ou.... Err wait, it doesn't.

[–]TheReformist940 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Yeh and for girls the cut of point for boys is like the 85th percentile

[–]spunk_wizard37 points38 points  (1 child) | Copy

Great post man. This is the kind of content on TRP that I find most valuable:

Things I've always known but never seen put into words concisely

[–]Jax-T0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

this is exactly what I thought. we should collect these kinda posts somewhere.

[–]tb8767078 points79 points  (14 children) | Copy

Great Post. Point is be yourself but include at least most if not all the alpha traits in required amounts. Otherwise dating and shopping around the SMP is a waste of time for you. If not there yet then work up to that point sorta like a 'basic training' to get all the required stuff out of the way before you go into the world.

[–]Orig_analUse_rname35 points36 points  (13 children) | Copy

In other words, "Be the best version of yourself."

[–][deleted] 44 points45 points  (8 children) | Copy

"Be yourself" and "Be the best version of yourself" are shitty blue-pill advices if you're not already successful with women. If your current self is to be a beta, you don't want to stay a beta, or be an even better version of a beta. Developing alpha traits is necessary but changing oneself often require huge efforts, and being humans we are reluctant to change so we loooooove the "be yourself" shitty advice.

The reason why the shitty "be yourself" advice refuses to die is that because it has one true ring to it: "be yourself" means "be authentic", which usually goes with confidence, with frame-control. All alpha qualities. The ultimate alpha is authentic: he REALLY is an alpha. Since game is the #1 thing you need to become more successful, it's good to have that authentic feel to it but you can't really "work on becoming more authentic". So the real good, red-pill style, advice is "kill the beta, work on your alpha traits" and then when you're there, successful and spinning plates right left and centre, you'll realise that you have a new "self" and that you happen to be true to your new self: you are "authentic". We are who we say we are

[–]PedroIsWatching8 points9 points  (1 child) | Copy

"Be the best version of yourself" is what women hamstered "just be yourself" into when they realized men were catching on to how bullshit that advice was.

[–]circlhat2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

It still needs explanation due to feminize brainwashing , guys love to think they are somehow immune to brainwashing and put on this tough act, when in fact it effected us all in ways we can't imagine.

You have to change your perception of reality , being the best version of yourself is way to abstract, as I seen girls leave millionaire for alpha and these guys were't exactly push overs either

[–]ShounenEgo1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

The best explanation of what you're saying is part of the sidebar, in the book of Pook.

[–]rpscrote1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy

I love "kill the beta." Its perfect. Remove the beta traits, but keep those things about yourself that are strengths and that make you you. But exorcise the meek beta demon and purify. Once you're purified, THEN "be the best version of yourself" might be applicable.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

[–]tb876703 points4 points  (3 children) | Copy

Not exactly, the best version of my old beta self would still not have the 'required' amount of alpha traits to do well. Most guys coming to TRP like I did have to change themselves at least a decent amount to get out of that rut that we call 'being blue' around here. Once out and you have the basics down then go red on your own terms, but there is a baseline you must attain.

[–]mada02070 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

It's all about who you want to be and see yourself in the future. Once you have that image, then you can be the best version of yourself.

[–]TheIceReaver0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Satisfy my curiosity, what was your process turning from 'being blue' to red?

I'm just starting the journey and not quite pursuing the goal with as much gusto and drive as required, I feel a success story can help me.


[–]tb876702 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

It's way too long. Kissing virgin way too late, didn't have time to bother. Various injuries gained weight back on, used to be in good shape. Social anxiety compounded issues. Ran into TRP on accident, forgot how exactly. I think it was the PUAhate guys actually mumbling about it. Started losing weight, doing what I can for exercise with lack of proper lifting equipment. Still have a ponch but my mental game is strong enough I'm getting way more female attention than I think I should. I am considering myself a 5, likely a 6 in reality, in shape I was at least an 8. First taking the red pill gave me shakes. All the lies, all the bs we were fed. It wasn't an awakening like a born-again christian coming out of the river, there was lots of anger. Lots of pain. Was a bit rough. I thought I started late in my mid-twenties but in reality many men find TRP in their 30's and 40's. Financial future is really not good but I am getting female attention and taking care of myself. Lots of stuff lined up against me on the money front so that is actually my biggest challenge in life really, at least women are not a challenge.

[–]tompanz17 points18 points  (15 children) | Copy

Pretty good write up, I just wanted to add some of my observations. Attraction is very complicated. I've come to believe attraction is based on one fundamental drive connected with reproduction, different for men and women, and then it branches out from there. Every criteria dealing with attraction must be filtered through the "base" attraction. With women, all attraction is in some way or another based on safety. Either the direct ability to keep them safe: such as height , strength, or aggressiveness; or indirect: influence, money, power, and charisma. However, people( let alone women) are seldom aware of this due to it being tied to our sex drives, which means it isn't exactly based on logic. For the same reason your mind will justify eating a cheeseburger despite you knowing it's bad for you if you're hungry, they will flip flop between men and get with otherwise dangerous guys because the thought process comes from somewhere much deeper in their brain than logic, or even emotion, causing them to hamster out.

[–]Dustin_Bromain3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy

This is a very interesting theory. I'd be willing to bet good money that an expanded post on this would be well-received by the community.

[–]tompanz2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

I've thought about writing it out, but because I think about it while doing tedious stuff at work, I don't really remember to write any of it down.

[–]riverraider691 point2 points  (5 children) | Copy

With women, all attraction is in some way or another based on safety.

Part of it, but definitely not all.


There are certain traits of sexual selection which are more or less arbitrary - a trait is sexy because it is sexy. If a guy is X and X is considered sexy, it means that a woman's children by him will also have have trait X and be sexy. X being relevant to anything else is secondary.

[–]screenmagnet0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy

Although there are great examples of such arbitrary traits selected for in other species, I can't really think of any in humans. Can you?

[–]alphabux2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy

Actually, the book "The Red Queen" makes the case that human intelligence has been sexually selected for. There is no reason for humans to be as smart as they are. They don't need it to survive: there are plenty of dumber animals getting by just fine. Especially since brain requires so much energy.

The human brain is a peafowl's tail, with humans choosing partners that entertain them the most (the most "intelligent").

[–]screenmagnet1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

I read The Red Queen many years ago, but I don't remember that part. I'll have to re-read, as it's not immediately obvious to me how intelligence is sexually selected. I mean -- wasn't intelligence selected for because of the advantage of language? Or are we saying that the intelligence was there long before language came about?

Also, wasn't there some theory about how blonde hair/blue eyes was sexually selected for in Northern European populations?

[–]alphabux0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Intelligence doesn't need a reason to be selected for. Why do peafowl females like big tails? It doesn't matter, they just do. It doesn't give any advantage to have a big tail.

[–]riverraider690 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Good question. While I don't think there are traits which are 100% the result of sexual selection, most are influenced by it to a certain degree. Where and how much hair we have (head hair, beard, lack of fur), breasts, penis size and others have some functional element, but they're used mostly as signals of high SMV, and most of their value is derived from SMV, and not the underlying advantages.


[–]pantsoffire0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Seems more fluid and three dimensional than Tingles or BP.

[–]tompanz0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

The tingles is basically her reacting to being attracted to the dude.

[–]screenmagnet0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

Actually I don't think it's safety/protection so much as competence in general that women look for.

[–]tompanz0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

You can't be very safe with an incompetent man now could you? Basically anything that promises to keep the woman and her perspective kids from being killed and keep the woman in good standing within the community will cause attraction.

Like I said before, none of this is surface level thinking. She isn't looking at a guy with abs and thinking " man he could really defend me from wild animals!" , she just "feels" it.

[–]screenmagnet0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

My point is that it goes beyond just safety. A woman doesn't just want to be safe. She wants to prosper. And for that she needs a competent mate. That is why women find ambition and initiative attractive in men. They want a man who can not only keep their family safe, but also elevate their position in society.

[–]ELLEN_POO0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Why is height a direct ability to keep someone safe but not money? Money seems pretty damn direct to me.

[–]sir_wankalot_here26 points27 points  (6 children) | Copy

A theory to be useful has to cover as many outliers as possible. My explanation that women get the tingles from power covers as many possibilities as possible. You summed this up here.

We talk a lot about what these traits are, but let's just sum it down to: confidence, charm, dominance, physical fitness, etc.

One word "power"

How many times have you heard a girl saying "I really like nerdy guys!" and thought that she's a liar? She's not lying. She really does like nerdy guys.

Oh that is what she hamsters on about. On some level she believes that. Then she ends up banging some greasy biker. Probably this chick comes from some upper class preooy school. I don't know if the term preppy is still used. What ever the modern term is ☺

Read the books by Feydman the physist geek, when I said the guy was highly successful with strippers, women that hung out in gang related bars etc. The TRP hamster went on overdrive. Some guy posted a pic of him, and said there was no way a stripper would be banging a guy like him, he was an ugly jew with glasses (no offense against Jews just being blunt).

The guy step by step explained how he picked up strippers. TRP as hell on all levels. Again explanation is power. Obviously it wasn't for his body building skills.

Still a good post and it reinforces many ideas and concepts. Just my views on things.

[–]Lefeudufou1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Thumbs up for relating to your post on power

[–]sam_sing 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy

Feydman the physist geek

can you point me to the books?

[–]sir_wankalot_here5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy

This one is good to start. It includes how he helped with the atom bomb. He is extremely witty.

I think when he helped with the atom bomb he was like 24. So after WW2, most men his age had served during the war. So at parties people would ask what did you do during the war. He would then joke around, and then figuratively speaking drop the bomb, he would say I worked on the bomb. No one would believe a guy that youmg worked on the bomb.

He is extremely intelligent but yet he uses plain English. Even some of his lecture notes on computing etc are brilliant. He explains extremely complex ideas in simple language.

The guy was amazing, he could do everything from being a professional bongo drum player, safe cracking, to helping on the atom bomb.

He talks about how they where unable to open the safes to the top secret files on the bomb. So he said he could do it, but he needs to be left alone. If I remember correctly he got the safe open in like 1 hour. But then he said he didn't want them to think it was too easy. So he decided to take a nap ☺

It also shows his views on life, how he saw things. A brilliant man, but yet extremely humble. He wasnt affraid to try new things. So in one of his books he talks about when they invented LSD how he experimented with it. Or when one of the universities he worked for tried to shut down a strip club close by. He cunningly asked in the meeting "what type of guys go to strip clubs ?" They said deviates, men of lower intelligence etc. He then replied something like "Oh I didn't know I had low intelligence. I enjoy going to the strip club for lunch. maybe you better fire me, I am unqualified to work here". I think this was after he won the noble prize. Anyway that one statement ended the opposition to the strip club.

Brilliant man.


[–]ScarletFever8221 points22 points  (4 children) | Copy

I'm identifying well with this. Personally I'm into bigger curvy girls, not obese, not skinny, but "thick." Its a relative like, not all guys are into, and if her company lowers my SMV, I'll usually keep her inside walls till I next her. But when I'm talking about a hot plate, or reading FRs, I'm not visualizing some chubby pumkinfaced hog with a listhp.

[–]NiceKicksGabe12 points13 points  (1 child) | Copy

Same. The ass gotta be fat.

[–]SwagYoloJesus4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

Or as small as humanly possible in my case.

[–]1PantsonFire12344 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

Hahahaha so i'm not the only one who gives SMV lowering chicks the indoor treatment. People called me a jerk for letting this girl drive all the way from no where to come fuck me and bring weed. But I kept my rep safe.

[–]NeoreactionSafe6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy

Women want to be known and captured.

So once you get past the physical level where you pick your "type" and she picks her "type" you then move into the Game aspect of inside the relationship.

Women want to mentally surrender to your stronger will.

Game is about creating the interaction where she perceives you as "above" her and in control of things. If you show weakness she will Shit Test you while thinking:

"Was this guy Alpha? It's like the Alpha guy I fell for has gone Beta on me, so I'm going to test if I've made a big mistake."

So the day to day pattern needs to stay the same. If you are the master in the beginning don't fall into weakness or it will force her to activate her Hypergamy and seek another.

The deeper you get into her head and force her mentally to submit the more she tingles for you. But don't see this as a physical thing. Some women do have a "thing" for being violently dominated, but as Machiavelli would say the Alpha is made of the Lion and the Fox. If she senses your "tricky" Fox like thinking that will be a turn on. (for some)

Foxy, Foxy, Foxy.


[–]1menergize5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy

I can attest this is true. I am 5' 7", which is short by most dude standards, but I've landed a ton of girls even a couple inches taller than me just because of my better than average physique.

I'm not ripped, I'm about 154 lbs about 11% body fat, 16 inch arms, bench about 185x5. I don't do maxes. They're for ego imo. I look strong for my size. I do a ton of plyometrics and agility work also. This helps with the fit appearance.

Any bigger, I think I'd look big instead of strong and lean for my size which would be bad. I focus mostly on aesthetics now, and do a ton of dumbbell isolation work.

I've regularly had larger, more bulky males try to AMOG me in social interactions. Frame, composure and attitude mattered more than their muscles did on multiple occasions.

One guy tried to fight, until I offered mutual combat calmly, and he declined, and left. I fucked the chick.

It's great stuff. Be fit, but if you're getting HUGE because you think that's going to solve all your problems, you're better off getting functionally strong (for a sport, activity, or aesthetics) rather than getting physically massive.

Edit: Good post Izz. Solid links too. Everybody should read the stuff he linked to.

[–]pillwizard3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

Basically, attraction works the same way no matter what your gender. This is what women miss out on when they tell orbiters to just 'be themselves'. No one ever mentions the caveat. Hope newbies read this and get it internalised. Nice post, one of the more informative I've read in sometime.

[–]blobblobz3 points4 points  (13 children) | Copy

"confidence, charm, dominance, physical fitness, etc." I feel like these alpha traits got overlooked in this analysis. Are these the absolute requirements are there any other traits worthy of mention? What is the best way to go about increasing these traits to the threshold? I assume gym takes care of confidence, physical fitness and to some degree dominance but how about charm? Good theory I like it

[–][deleted] 10 points11 points  (1 child) | Copy

The non-negotiable part is that you have to be alpha, but I didn't go into what constitutes alpha because that's kind of the whole point of this subreddit. There's a lot of discussion on the topic everywhere around here, just keep reading and you'll grasp it.

"Charm" is a bullshit unclear word so I get why you're asking, but basically it's pretty much a code word for being smooth and charismatic. Basically, good social skills, and women eat up stupid one-liners as a response. The shit-test buster thread we had here is a good example; pretty much every correct response to a shit-test is going to be "charming."

[–]screenmagnet2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Charm is basically the ability to make a woman feel desired and special in a sincere and believable way while at the same time giving the impression that you yourself are sought after and that if she doesn't impress you, you might switch your attention to some other girl instead.

[–]screenmagnet0 points1 point  (10 children) | Copy

Minimum requirements (or deal breakers) for most women are: Lean body, decent face, sexually adequate, self-sufficient (financial and also able to manage his own life), self-controlled, sexually dominant/socially assertive, at least as competent in work and life as she is, goal-oriented with follow through.

If a man doesn't have the above qualities a woman generally is unable to respect him and/or find him sexually attractive. She may settle with him anyway either because: he has something she wants (money, a big dick); or because she can't do better and doesn't want to be alone.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (9 children) | Copy

I would say self-sufficient is only a deal breaker for LTRs, and possibly goal-oriented as well, but being goal-oriented is a side-effect of being self-controlled and assertive in general, so I guess any true attractive guy would have that trait.

but yeah, I don't think self-sufficient is that big of a deal, I've seen plenty of women flocking to an alpha who is borderline homeless and has no grasp on anything in life. This also plays into a little fantasy where they'll "finally be the one to fix him", and into a general "bad boy" attitude or whatever.

the reality is that if a guy has the appearance and the confidence, he can pull almost any lifestyle off and still be the hottest guy around. he just needs to know how to own it.

[–]screenmagnet2 points3 points  (8 children) | Copy

I know what you are talking about -- the women who are with the asshole's who mooch off of them (and everyone else).

It may seem counter-intuitive at first glance, but as I covered in my comment, these women are actually settling for these men, because the men offer them something they want (typically it is really good sex/a big dick and the attention of an attractive man). Add to that an emotionally abusive dynamic, insecurity issues, personality disorders, etc. and it explains why women stay with these men. But make no mistake -- these women are SETTLING. At the end of the day, they DO NOT respect these men, resent them, and find them only physically attractive (but are turned off by their immaturity). They don't leave them because they are afraid to be alone and think they can't do better or are addicted to the sex.

I say this as a woman who stayed in multiple relationships with shitty ex-boyfriends primarily because of the amazing sex and fear of being alone. I was definitely settling, and did not respect these ex's at all.

Now that I am with a man who fulfills all the 'minimum criteria,' I know what it really means to truly respect a man and feel attracted to him in all aspects (not just physical). I don't feel I am settling or staying with him because I am afraid to be alone or feel that I can't do better. I actually WANT to be with him, because he makes my life better, and I want to make his better in return.

This is what women actually want ("Mr. Right") but when they can't find him, or think they don't deserve him or can't get him, they settle first for Good-Looking Assholes (for the sex) and then eventually switch to settling for Fat Husband Material (for the babies).

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy

I think the point you're missing is that most guys here aren't looking to be a girl's Mr. Right. The point of this place is to maximize sexual success.

In other words, within the goals of the members of this community, being a shitty ex boyfriend is a victory. Fucking an attractive girl for a few months/years and then being free of her once she's "used up".

I myself understand your point, because I'd rather be the perfect boyfriend the girl will remember for the rest of her life than a mistake she regrets, and it is crucial for me to be respected. I cannot enjoy a relationship emotionally or sexually without that. However, TRP as a platform exists purely to facilitate sexual strategy, and thus anything that makes women want to have sex with you is fair game.

There are some guides around here to facilitate respect within marriages and serious relationships (they mostly revolve around taking charge of the situation, becoming the household leader, being dependable in plans, creating an atmosphere where your wife is happy and confident in your competence to manage everything, etc.) and all of those agree with the points you make. Ultimately, though, most of the guys here aren't even interested in serious long term relationships or worse, marriage. They just want to get laid, so that advice is irrelevant.

[–]screenmagnet0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy

Ah ok. In that case: be good looking and approach women a lot. It's not rocket science.

Edit: But my understanding of TRP is that many men are disheartened because they feel that their wives have settled for them, after banging their way through a series of good-looking asshole losers in their 20s. Which is often true, lbr.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy

Yeah, that's why the discussion revolves around how to become a good-looking asshole that gets to fuck girls in their 20s. There are elements of appearance that you can never fix (facial aesthetics, height, ethnicity that might be unpopular in your area), so after telling you to sort your fucking hair, dress well, and lift, 99% of the discussion becomes how to behave. You say all you have to be is good-looking and approach women, but most guys don't have the Adonis looks that can land them hot girls with no skill whatsoever. That's why those skills need to be explained, taught, and practiced. This place is for average men to learn to become above average, by improving everything that can actually be improved.

[–]screenmagnet2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

Thinking back on the guys I have had casual sex with, one thing they all had in common is that they were sexually forward and brought out my naughty side without making me feel slutty for behaving that way. They made it acceptable to dirty talk in public with a guy I had just met. Not only that...they made it fun. And they made it seem like it was something they didn't do all the time with just any girl. They made it seem like we had a connection, even if it was just for one night.

That's game.

And yeah, I knew I was being played, but I didn't care. I wanted to suspend my disbelief, because the reality is that many girls do want to have that wild casual sex once in a while...they just don't want to do it with a guy who will make them feel unsafe or cheap and disrespected for it.

Call that confidence or call it charm, but it's more specific than that. It's painting the girl a fantasy...a fantasy where she can have a wild time and not be shamed for it.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy


Not rocket science, but certainly a more complex craft than "be good looking and approach women a lot."

[–]1cover200 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

So with these bad men you were settling for because of the sex etc. -- who broke up the relationship?

Does Fat Husband Material also have to pass the 2-part initial screen, at the same levels you were applying earlier when looking for Mr. Right or Good Looking Assholes?

[–]screenmagnet0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

The guys broke up the relationship. I was miserable, but not willing to break up because I was addicted to the sex. However, I was definitely not loyal. Like, if another guy had shown interest in me, I would have ended the relationship without a second thought. But of course, when you're in a relationship, other guys tend not to approach you!

Fat Husband Material doesn't pass the screen, which is why the marriage ends up sexless. Now, I think this is a horrible thing to do to a person -- enter into a marriage with someone with the intention of denying them sex. I also personally could never do a sexless marriage because sex is way too important to me. In fact, lack of sex is one of the very few reasons that I would consider divorce.

But some women don't have high sex drives, often because they have been on the birth control pill, which has lasting effects on free testosterone levels (I learnt this the hard way...it took 3 years of being off the pill for my sex drive to get back to what it was before). So they are more than happy to enter into a sexless marriage with a man that they are physically repulsed by. It's sad, but at the same time, I find it hard to believe that there are no signs early on. She may be having sex with you so you'll marry her, but she's probably not doing it enthusiastically...so why are you marrying her? It's like the assholes I dated when I was young. There were signs from the beginning...I just chose to ignore them. Luckily, I wised up in time.

[–]Bombay_eagle3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

I wish I could upvote this post a thousand times.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

Having crossed the 30 threshold, my strongest piece of advice for people around my age is stay thin. AKA, low bodyfat. It's how to maintain both a youthful look and attraction. The majority of people my age cannot maintain this simple task. It sets you above 90% of your peers. It's also more healthy both in how you feel and how your body performs.

edit: before one-uppers try to correct me, I'm not saying don't lift. I'm only commenting on bodyfat, not muscle mass. I am a consistent lifter. Gaining 20 pounds of both muscle and fat meant nothing because my bf % was higher than when I was all-around lean.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy


What is this?

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

However, once a girl is skinny, It's actually more like its direct counterpart tit size, you need to have it, and bigger is better up to the point where it get's silly.

A study has shown that the bodies girls find the most attractive are much leaner than what men think.

While it's true size only matters up to a point, that study was bullshit, it's not scientific, it's just for clickbait and inherently flawed, there's a small sample size which is isolated and it doesn't take into account the women itself, worst of all there's no methodology in how they compared the bodies, the people doing this didn't have any idea about bodybuilding or sociology, it's just a shitty blog post.

What about the most popular male pornstar among females? James Deen

This is also not a good example, James Deen is a pushed product, the only real reason he stands out from his counterparts is he has contacts and gets pushed.

In addition to this the majority of women don't watch porn regularly, and those that do are women who often lack the ability to get regular sex from men who they would consider as their standard. Mainly it's hardcore feminists, and those types are really into heavy BDSM for obvious reasons, so he sticks out to them because they watch a lot of his porn. Regular women have some porn, but typically don't into nearly as much as guys do in the sense they have like 10 different actors like to watch and do it every day 3 times a day.

It no longer matters whether someone is more alpha than you.

It does in relationships and plate spinning, but that's a whole different ball park. Good post OP, it's always worth noting muscle isn't everything.

However when it comes to alpha traits that are non-physical, such as dominance, there is no upper limit, just like there is no upper limit to beauty, because once your trait falters, to that woman, it's as if it no longer exists.

[–]billythebeta2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

You know those age-old adages like "it's too good to be true," or "nothing is truly free?" The same basic principle applies to women's likes. If you're a fat neckbeard or a skinny basement-dweller, try to understand that no woman who isn't damaged goods will want to fuck you unless it involves something you have (money, power). These non-negotiable traits OP is mentioning are absolutely essential to attract women. Anything you hear from women to the contrary is hamsterspeak, a lie, or generally untrustworthy.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy

Most gamer girls play fucking CS:GO or Minecraft anyway. Fuck that

[–]174pounder2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

"I play whatever gives me the most donations on Twitch"

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

If you think about it, Twitch is a gigantic Validation greenhouse for female streamers.

[–]TRPMaidenSlayer2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

One thing almost NEVER mentioned in this sub is teeth and dental hygiene.

Huge deal breaker for so many girls I know. Get your chompers lookin clean and white. Even if that means braces and/or veneers.

Plus, it's a huge confidence boost. When you know your smile is spot-on, you'll use it more.

[–]Nearox2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Must be one of the best articles I've seen here during last months. Many thanks

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

I tell guys get to a decent body fat (sub 15%). Your face will look better (shaper jawline, more obvious facial features) and you will feel more confident. Being a big massing hulk is what us guys think looks good but what is actually good is a nice lean guys with lean faces and abs.

[–]onepill_twopill1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Thank you very much for doing this. This is exactly what I needed. Words cannot begin to describe how much you cleared up my mind. For most others they probably new all of this but myself, this is the best post i've seen for a while.

[–]pantsoffire1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

I agree. There are few things sadder than coming here to end up reading some guys bickering about who was more Alpha because of their opinions on actions A, B or C.

[–]SwagYoloJesus1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

If you're being blatantly dominated by other guys, then it's easy to interpret situations as "who was the more alpha".

[–]bromance9461 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

This is a good post but it elides what many of these types of posts don't mention which is that within the domain of non-negotiable traits are some things outside of a man's control... for example HEIGHT. This is why there exists a blackpill. It's not 100% non-negotiable but it's 99% non-negotiable and that remaining 1% is often through doors of entry that aren't universally accessible, either.

[–]delashmate1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Yep its complicated.. sometimes attraction is surprising.. there are many things you can't easly control..

For me the only non-negotiable alpha trait is confidence, We all seen that guy that is short and skinny or fat that bangs the best looking girls.. They all have confidence, if you have confidence nothing else is really important..

Its sits well with my knowledge that girls would attracted not the most mascular guys around.. However sometimes being more mascular can give you extra boost of confidence.. sometimes being more mascualr can be gross to specific girl..

and sometimes being more mascualr will not give more confidence, for example I read once that a girl that was shy or her boobs, made a boob job, now she was proud of her boobs but shy about her pussy.. sometimes shy person will keep searching what to be shy about..

I would summary it focus on your confidence to be in the sweet spot, sometimes it has to be with inner dialog, sometimes with weight and sometimes its understand the reality.. that the girl might reject you because she is not emotionaly avilable because of whatever.. (period, lesbi, boyfriend, she feel unattractive..)

[–]the_nsa_hates_you1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Hi OP. Good post. But the 2nd link tried to crash my computer.

Just an FYI

[–]nomorelulu2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Good post but one point I'd like to nitpick: the article about the ideal man's body as voted on by women is incredibly stupid and meaningless. I'm not sure if it was discussed here or on another forum, but I recall that it was torn to shreds for various reasons. One big reason off the top of my head: most women have bad bodies and they rationalize what kind of male body they would like based on what they think they could get (in other words, a fat chick won't admit that she likes the bodybuilder the most because she knows she could never get that guy). In reality, girls literally can't keep their hands off guys with big muscles as I'm sure you've all seen or experienced personally.

TLDR: Actions speak louder than words. Don't trust what women say when it comes to the "ideal" male body. And furthermore, fuck their opinion anyways. If you want to get jacked, get jacked because it makes you happy. That's my goal anyways.

[–]occupythekitchen1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy

Great observation. Back when I was younger I struggled with my weight (I still do since I pack extra weight when I'm depressed and it becomes a vicious cycle)

Luckily I've been able to break those cycles and start getting fit. Every time without a hitch when I get to around 185 pounds the behavior women have around me completely changes. I had the hugest crush on K, I mean she is a 9.2 in my book and our sense of humor just matches. First time I met her I guess people told her I said whatever the fuck I wanted and she wanted to shock me. First thing she asks me was if in Brazil people had tp or they had to use their hand. I told her I didn't know since I had my maid wipe me. We both laughed and everyone else and that in a nutshell is our friendship, we both like to goof around, I guess her being as pretty as she is enabled her to get away with being as outlandish as she acts and I had the same thing but my behavior is from being spoiled as hell and treated as the golden god where I was born. (Traditional family in the region so everyone knew of us)

Now after I met her I had two bones fracture, I stopped going to gym, and gained weight in the meantime. Well now our friendship started having more attrition than ever, she started taking my jokes seriously and usually being mean around me. I started to try an avoid her and I started getting fed up with gaining weight so I went back to the gym. About 3 months later I was back to my old self she had a new boyfriend but we had a lot of mutual friends so we ran into each other a lot. Now this is where the truth lies first thing she does when she sees my improved self is touch my abs and then we spend the whole night dancing, I mean every chance she had to kino she would.

Too bad she has a kid otherwise I could see myself with her.

[–]tallwheel1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

Argh at that surprise ending. She was a single mom all along!

[–]occupythekitchen0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

When I met her she was pregnant and the father passed away. They were together till he o.d.ed I consider her an exception but yeah single moms are usually a no no

[–]1cover201 point2 points  (5 children) | Copy

Arnold Schwarzenegger's son is on lists of sexiest men alive. He's not a bodybuilder. Strong shoulders, that's about it.

To me, an overly muscular body looks like the guy is a slave or at least makes his living with his muscles. That's not powerful in our society.

[–]sunfistkid2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy

Unless you play in the NFL.

[–]full_package0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Thankfully women attracted to NFL players are unattractive to me.

[–]An_All-Beef_Engineer1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Then you're into guys. Stop lying to yourself.

[–]1cover200 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I'm a short average guy who's smart enough to be sexy for that, basically. NFL was never a consideration for me, but all the best to those guys. I don't see them as competitors in any sense.

[–]TRPmmm3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

You're better off looking like a roid-junkie than a fat lard but yeah you're right. Women want healthy looking physiques which comes with leanness.

In an archaic sense, people forget that your best chance of survival wasn't about being big and muscly enough to kill the other men. It was about being fit and healthy enough to survive the winter.

[–]Stationarity0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

If you're too alpha...she's afraid she can't keep you. And ya, the first part is basically a filter test. If you pass the filter, then the other attributes come into play. I worked with a couple of 20 somethings two summers ago. It was obvious the girl had a thing for the asshole, low body fat, former athlete...and he later confirmed. She, however, told me she wanted a guy that was kind, compassionate, creative, etc. The asshole didn't match any of those...so obviously those were secondary to what she really wanted.

[–]pantsoffire0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Perhaps she was just being a typical woman, hoping to set you up as an orbiter aspiring to be these things for her. One example does not a fact make. Don't mean to talk down to you but if a woman didn't say such generic things I'd almost be suspicious.

[–]1egoisenemy0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Amazing post; these are things that sound common sense but it has never occurred to me. I do disagree though with how important it is to be muscular. Frame/confidence/behavior/charisma is by far the most important thing for attraction; yes obviously you don't need to take it to the extreme and say that physical looks aren't important at all, they still are but frame et. al by far is the most important factor.

[–]deville050 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Nice. I guess we are all lied to and brainwashed. This is the equivalent of how women complain about guys who say they like women with no make up.. Or being naturally beautiful. What they mean is a make that look natural but is also quite hard qnd time consuming to do. We live an in increasingly un-natural world. There is nothing natural about make up or going to the gym. But we both want "naturally" attractive partners

[–]Frigzy2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

The natural way to get a well defined physique would be through physical combat practice and hard labor. Most of which is now gone or outsourced. Physical fitness however still represents what it used to. A man who's strong, masculine, autonomous and capable of protecting what's dear to him.

In this day and age, it is not a survival necessity to carry these traits, instead it's a choice. If these values do not mean anything to you, there's no reason to spend effort solidifying them. However, women's genetical programming does not care about whether or not you value these traits, because obviously their genes still do.

As for make-up, well, it's a way for them to artificially increase their traits which are desired by men such as youth and fertility. There are similarites, however physical fitness still does provide some everyday value, whereas make-up in essence does not (other than that it could help them reproduce).

Just as with physical fitness though, there's plenty of variation possible. Personally, I prefer minimal make-up as I've noticed it usually indicates certain characteristics in a girl. Just like some women get put off by overly muscled men, I lose interest in a girl who's wearing excessive make-up.

[–]falafin0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

You can't win them all. I've read or heard somewhere (it was probably the Beige Phillip show) that you shouldn't try to have them all but hit on the ones that like you and that prefer your type. Like, maximize your strength and minimize your weaknesses.

Anyways, how to be more charming guys? I'm about to read this week the Charisma Myth, any other books on this specific topic?

[–]AmericanHistoryAFBB0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy

Don't forget Johnny Depp. Speaking from experience, women love the guy. And it can't be just about his body. He's not all that buff.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy

Celebrities are exempt, the SMP is different for them.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy

This is a bullshit point.

Yes, the SMP is different for them, but they're not exempt. Obviously they could fuck any normal girl through their status alone. The question is how they do in the celebrity marketplace where everyone has high status.

Who do the girls who already have status fuck? This is the point where you could take a look at Taylor Swift's ex-boyfriend list. Pretty much any single guy would fuck Taylor Swift, and these are the guys who actually got to do it. None of them are huge, I'm afraid. (similarly, none of them are out of shape or beta: again, non-negotiable requirements.)

Then you get to the hottest celebrities, like Jolie and Aniston in their prime: they were fighting over Brad Pitt. Who do the hottest super models go for? The hottest musicians, athletes, and actors. Not the biggest motherfuckers around. Of course they'll choose a celebrity high-status partner, but the question is which celebrity they'll choose.

my point is that it's not enough to say "celebrities are exempt", because clearly the hottest women on the planet with the highest status seem to not go exclusively after bulky guys. They go for lean muscular dudes.

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points  (1 child) | Copy

They go for lean muscular dudes.

That is my point dude. A celebrity doesn't have to lift, lift, lift, to pull. A normal guy would probably have to, unless he were some kind of virtuoso musician. Then he's going to swim in poon.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Nah, you're missing what I'm trying to say.

You said his point is irrelevant because he's a celebrity, and I'm saying it doesnt matter, it's still applicable. In any sexual marketplace, the hottest girls for the hottest guys.

the fact that these examples are happening in the celebrity marketplace is irrelevant. if the biggest dudes were truly the hottest, then the biggest high status guys would be banging the highest status hot girls. they are not. high status lean dudes are.

[–]ckmtpm0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

This was very insightful. Thanks for sharing, hadn't thought of it that way.

[–]Endorsed ContributorAFPJ0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

You'd have to be retarded to believe that twice as many women prefer "starving sex icon Ville Valo" (at 2%) as opposed to Frank Zane (at 1%). In reality most women know that a guy like Frank Z. is unobtainable for them.

[–]screenmagnet1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy

Oh my god. The world must be ending because the day has finally come where I agree wholeheartedly with a post on TRP. Bless my little feminist heart, this guy finally fucking gets it.

Edit: I also never thought I would give someone Reddit Gold, but what do you know.

[–]full_package2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Due to obsessiveness of the rest of reddit (and world) with political correctness TRP posts contain a lot of exaggerations, overblown misogyny and plain anger. I consider it as trying to tilt the balance into the opposite direction. Whenever you read something here, don't take it as unquestionable truth. Pass it through a filter and try to understand the concepts author wants to express. Do not nitpick at his choice of words.

I hate it that everywhere else except TRP there's always some schmuck complaining that my statements are not general enough, not inclusive enough and that every sentence has to contain weak words like "usually" or be appended with "for the most part".

Sure, most of the stuff we deal with is not black and white. But I rarely talk in absolutes either. You have a brain that's capable of fuzzy logic. Use it.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Thank you, thank you, I'll be here all week.

[–]bromance9460 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Yeah, same here. TRP would be a tolerable place if not for all the political nonsense.

[–]screenmagnet0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

And the acronyms! I feel like I need a glossary just to get through a post on here.

[–]verify_account0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy

A study has shown that the bodies girls find the most attractive are much leaner than what men think. This is mostly because of their fantasy where they want everything to be totally natural, you need to be a natural alpha, you need to be naturally charming and confident, and yes, they also expect you to be naturally muscular. Their definition of naturally muscular is fucking retarded -- seeing as they think Brad Pitt in Fight Club is the ideal body -- but the point is that they aren't looking for The Rock. They're just looking for a hot guy.

Yeah hamster at work. Smaller guys make them less insecure about their own body. This is basically the equivalent of a guy asking out the 6/10 because he thinks he's got a better chance with her than the 9/10. Stop parroting this rationalization. Your small ottermode manlet body will not look better than an actual big guy. PERIOD.

Why are you encouraging guys to not get fucking huge? For what purpose?

[–]Endorsed ContributorInvalidity2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

If you want to get massively ripped, then by all means go for it. But if your objective is attract women, you're better off being cut and proportional.

Most guys aren't into girls who work out and are also fairly ripped; they prefer women who are slender, slim and embody the feminine form well. Those women like strong men, but they don't want men with bulging muscles.

That's why Arnold Schwarzenegger ended up with the predator as a wife and knocked up his beat looking nanny.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (1 child) | Copy

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Irrelevant, bro. First of all, I said muscular guys who aren't huge, not average.

Second, one girl being into huge muscles isn't against my point. Many girls like huge muscles, the point is that for most girls once you're muscular enough, it doesn't really matter.

Put that guy shirtless among 50 women and Fight Club Brad Pitt shirtless among 50 women, I guarantee you there will be no question who gets that look from more girls.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

okay bro you just come back here and let me know when your bodybuilders start fucking jolie and jennifer aniston.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

This all sounds fair and solidly argumented.. But I struggle to see how this fits with the core redpill concepts of SMV, hypergamy and AF/BB. I smell a red herring but I can't see it. I'll be thinking about this post a lot, thanks OP. In the meantime, I'm curious to hear from ECs on that subject...

[–]Danedina2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

He's arguing that SMV is a more complicated formula than your bench press times your squat. In short, your game matters. Women are not scouts at the NFL combine lining us up according to how broad are shoulders are. Instead, looking fit only gets you past the gate, and from that point on your attractiveness is decided by a host of other variables.

It's not really a new argument, but it's important to balance out all the "Lift heavy or die a virgin!" posts. Lifiting is the best single piece of advice for a hopeless shlub who needs somewhere to start. No one here is foolish enough to argue against that. However, you'll see quite a few debates about, for example, whether to use gear to get those extra inches on your biceps, whether it's better to do MMA than lift, how far frame and money can carry you if you want to marry and keep your wife faithful. There are many who argue that if you're not the biggest, baddest kid on the block then you'll never be able to keep your wife from fucking the local lifeguard.

[–]throwawayyourliberty0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Absolutely on point with your alpha-barrier entry thesis. But it might be misinterpreted in terms of lifting. For instance, i am not training for women. I am lifting for myself. If i settle for lifting average weight with average results to be average looking to seduce average girls, guess what i will become. Average.

Becoming the best version of yourself destroys the average. You should try to.

[–]Mifune_-1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy

While I understand your point about pinnacle of quality vs. acceptable levels of said quality (alpha viz a viz skinniness), I think the argument about non-negotiability is certainly problematic here. Skinniness and alpha also form under "preferences" and are not excluded from the other preference-based traits discussed above. This is in fact sweeping generalization and I call fault on the usage of the term "non-negotiability" here.

I understand what TRP is founded on, but this is a case of acute tunnel-visioning. Not everyone wants the alpha or skinniness part of the Venn diagram, and those traits are liable to turn some men and women off too. But yes, when you qualify your argument under "preferences" without using 'non-negotiable", the body sounds more plausible.

[–][deleted] 9 points10 points  (0 children) | Copy

Skinniness and alpha are not preferences. Preferences are something some people like and some people don't. Skinniness and alpha are the pinnacle of human attraction, they're what everyone is attracted to aside from a unicorn.

I don't know if you've fully understood AWALT or how long you've been here, but when we say "all women are like that", it doesn't mean you've proven it wrong when you found 1 fucking woman who is inconsistent with the facts. AWALT is a generalizing statement that is true for all intents and purposes aside from very very very rare negligible outliers.

As a fat girl or a beta, you are automatically unattractive to 99% of the population. The fact that some 1% out there might find your weight or behavior acceptable is totally irrelevant to the point.

Basically: yes, it's obvious there're outliers, but they're negligible.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (3 children) | Copy

Just had a small epiphany:

In selecting a potential mate to have kids with, she is testing that guy's ability to be a father - this is another reason why shit-tests take the form of bratty teenage behavior. She wants to try out what this guy would be like as a father to her children.

To change topics, this is actually what I wanted to address:

We talk a lot about what these traits are, but let's just sum it down to: confidence, charm, dominance, physical fitness, etc.

I'd like to give a more specific breakdown of "what women want." This list has to do with initial attraction (i.e. her criteria for will we fuck?) with most important on top (around 30% weight) and least important on bottom (about 20% weight):

  1. Status
  2. Personality / dominance
  3. Looks
  4. Ability to provide

For LTR / children those four attraction factors will shift around in importance, but no one will have less than 20% weight relative to the others for a guy to be attractive.

As a comparison, "what men want" would look something like this for initial stage of attraction:

  1. Looks - 80%
  2. Femininity, personality (nurturing, caring, playful, etc.), low partner count - 15%
  3. College degree and all her "real life" accomplishments - 5%

[–]screenmagnet0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

You're going about it the wrong way. Ranking those traits by importance is meaningless, since those traits themselves are both subjective and a continuous range. Instead, it is more practical to rank them based on the order that they are used to eliminate potential partners.

Within the first 5-10 seconds of seeing a man (basically the time it takes me to check him out head to toe), I eliminate him if he does not meet my Looks criteria. Looks is always first because it is the quickest and most immediate way to judge a person.

Within 20 minutes of talking to him (about 10 basic questions) I eliminate the next set of guys. These 10 questions make sure he is Safe/Not A Creep, Not an Asshole, Somewhat Mature, and Compatible with me on some basic level.

These are the two elimination rounds. If you don't pass these two rounds, I will definitely never sleep with you, no matter how drunk or horny or lonely or desperate I am. I also will definitely never date you, because what is the point of dating someone I know I could never bring myself to sleep with? You will be eternally friend zoned unless you pass these two rounds. And if you don't pass them immediately, you need to drastically change something about yourself (like a total body makeover) to make me change my mind. No amount of friendship or closeness or treating me well is going to do it on its own.

Now, if you do pass these two rounds, I may sleep with you. How picky I am beyond that depends on how desperate I am for sex, what's available for me to pick from, and how much of a catch I am myself at the moment.

For LTR? Now I become a whole lot more picky. You still need to have passed the first two rounds. But there are way more criteria beyond that. This is were things like your personality, how you treat me, your career potential, your values, and all that come into play.

But for a one night stand? I don't give a shit what the guy's earning potential or status is. I'm not banging his chequebook. All I care about is how big is his dick, can he make me come, can I look at his face without wanting to puke in my mouth, and is he lean enough that I can fuck him with the lights on?

[–]1cover201 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

So what are the 10 basic questions? If it's not obvious, what are good and bad answers?

[–]screenmagnet0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I don't have, like, a memorized list of 10 exact questions that I always ask word for word. But there are some basic things I want to know about a guy before I sleep with him, and I try to suss it out through conversation. My main objective is to make sure that the guy is normal, not a liar, safe to sleep with (i.e. won't push my boundaries in bed), single, and mature.

Now, I do ask about what he does for a living and what he studied and where he went to school. Not because I particularly care. But the way he answers those questions tells me a lot about him. If he brags about his job a ton, it tells me he may be entitled, and entitled men tend to push boundaries in bed. On the other hand, if his story doesn't add up (e.g. he tells me he's an engineer, but can't tell me what kind of engineer...) then I know he's a liar. And then there are the men who get angry that I am even asking them what they do for a living and start ranting about how I'm a gold digger. I stay away from those. What is the best answer you can give me? The truth, followed by asking me what I do for a living. Shows that you're actually interested in me as a person!

I also ask him where he lives and if he has a roommate or lives with his parents. Again, if he's evasive in his answers, he may be living with a girlfriend. And again, I've had men rant at me when I ask this question, going on about how I'm a shallow bitch for asking him if he lives with his parents. I stay away from those types.

And then I try to casually bring up some recent political thing to make sure he's not some conservative religious political zealot.

But seriously, you'd be amazed at the crazy shit that men have told me within the first 10 minutes of chatting with them. One particularly memorable guy (a philosophy major), when he learnt that I was a genetics major, went on about how studying science makes you uncultured(!), and then went on about astrology and how aliens built the pyramids. Honestly, I was less concerned about his opinions, and more concerned that he didn't have the self-control to keep them to himself within the first hour of meeting a girl he was ostensibly trying to get with.

Hope that helps.

[–]throwaway1234374t2-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy

When you say "skinny girls" I'm imagining famished, bony tramps and it's really not very appealing. Men want "pretty and not fat", not "skinny". I mean, each to their own right, but uh, that's my 2 cents.

Nice post.

[–]nerd30-2 points-1 points  (0 children) | Copy

Lol at the tards in this thread going on and on about the ideal male body. Women like tall good looking men. Stop coping because you're short and/or ugly. Lifting, will only net positive gains if you're fat, rail thin, or above average in looks to begin with. You're mainly wasting time otherwise if you're lifting for "aesthetics".

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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