Old but gold | MensRights

[–]v574v 1151 points1152 points1153 points 9 years ago (82 children) | Copy Link

[–]chesterburger 257 points258 points259 points 9 years ago (19 children) | Copy Link

[–]nplant 52 points53 points54 points 9 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

They don't have a well thought out philosophy about discrimination, they're just repeating what they learned from their friends and other like minded people online.

You see this all the time actually. I know a guy who frequently washes his hands with soap during flu season. What's wrong with this, you ask? Well, he does it even if he hasn't left his house for days. It's frightening how prepared people are to just follow instructions rather than develop a mental model of what's actually going on.

But wait, it gets worse. You know all those people who "just aren't computer people" even though their entire job involves using one? I keep seeing a common pattern: they seem to treat everything as a list of instructions you need to memorize rather than as a first step towards a proper mental model. Not just computers. That's just where it becomes the most apparent. And there's a lot of these people.

[–]Arkham_Retirement 44 points45 points46 points 9 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]kasper138 20 points21 points22 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I recently tried to teach my mother how to use a computer for the upteenth time. Instead of showing her what to do I decide to teach her how to think about doing it. So I would say, ok what do you think you should do to open up a browser? click it? Ok, so click it.. nothing happens. Why didn't it work? I don't know I clicked it. Ok, maybe try clicking it twice in a row. Ok, now how do you think you would close the browser so it goes away? I don't know... Well, take a guess. puts mouse to upper right but is going to click minimize Very close, what do you think that X means? Why would it be an X?

You get the picture. I refuse to show anybody "how to do it" but I'll teach you how to think and figure it out for yourself.

Edit: After an hour that day the next day I saw her on her laptop, she had been on there an hour doing things.

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[–]J2501 14 points15 points16 points 9 years ago* (10 children) | Copy Link

When it's just one person, these kinds of thinkers are just alienated weirdos, but its never just one person because these people can't think for themselves. That's why they are doomed to think in generalities and stereotypes, while at the same time condemning a handful of TOKEN generalities and stereotypes, just to prove that they don't always think in generalities and stereotypes.

The kinds of communities these people build always have really fucked up people at the helm. I've noticed this with the Austin Burner community. Fat girls and trannies in positions of high social capital, which has actually been terrible for business... Supposedly it makes the hot girls and dudebros less terrible, but they are just as terrible, they just use PC rhetoric to rationalize it. Basically, the 'every dog must have its day' mentality has ruined the club scene.

[–]Plasmabat 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

[–]BattlestarFaptastula 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah my mother used to have a lot of weight on, but we (family) never shamed her about it (she shamed herself, and so did some of her friends, unfortunately). It is an illness, it fucked up her liver to the extent doctors were asking her if she was an alcoholic (she's teetotal), and over 10 years she very healthily lost it all through excercise. If people had been telling her YOU'RE A BEAUTIFUL AND HEALTHY WOMAN she would have had no incentive to get better and could possibly have even died.

There's nothing wrong with being chubby, that's natural, but a health condition is a health condition and I know that having too much weight on can fuck with your body. It's similar to the fact that people respect my choice to be a smoker, but they don't try to tell me that me smoking is good for me and makes me look so cool.

[–]J2501 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]Plasmabat 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]J2501 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link

Fair warning: your short question has a long answer.

I was in the nightclub business for several years, pre- and post- 9-11, and there have been drastic changes, not really in ownership or management, but just culturally.

And don't get me wrong: there have always been pretentious clubs that focused on 'exclusivity'. Models have always been stuck up.

But my point is simply that the neighborhood or downtown night spot used to be where the guy next door and the girl next door hooked up, because their inhibitions were lowered by whatever they were on, and the context was more proper than every day life...

Nowadays, though, the internet has made both aware that they can do better (the girl probably moreso than the guy). So it's like, all this snooty pretentiousness has people in the same league turning eachother down, and ultimately it's terrible for the local establishments. The rising 'straight edge' movement in club culture has also not been helpful.

And this gets into the split between ravers and clubbers in the 90's (clubbers were generally more pretentious), which ravers lost because of police crackdowns on their gatherings, and also the rise of Burning Man culture, which is steeped in Hollywood phonyism.

Feminism at the dance club used to be about 'Don't call me bitch' and 'let me get a good job'... Now it's gone really over-the-top, to a point where you've got some Debbie Downer in your face giving you a sexual entitlement lecture while you're trying to party. The reality is that if a woman wanted to just dance without being bothered, they could easily stay home and listen to a podcast. I mean, traditionally these places are meat markets where flirting is expected.

But the 'safe space' mentality, taken too far, is ruining all that. And it inspires a lot of what I call 'Patriarchal Feminism'... which is to say, PC Principal-esque dudes enforcing ridiculous PC standards as a veiled means of expressing the same old territorialism.

In terms of 'body type acceptance' or 'racial acceptance', it's something the Tumblrinas nominally embrace, but only as a means of deflecting unwanted advances onto less popular targets. In other words, they might implore you to hook up with their 'friend' Precious, the fat black girl, but they certainly aren't hooking up with Biggie Smalls.

Ultimately, the men are pedestrians at these places, and increasingly, they are realizing that a hypocritically pseudo-liberal social environment makes the experience not worth getting dressed, dragging oneself out of the house, and overpaying for admissions and libations.

[–]J2501 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

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Nice. Once again fighting the good fight against one kid at a time on the internet with faulty logic. No better way to build a movement than getting caught up in arguments with unreasonable children. The rape classes I've taken (had to do it every year in a party frat at a big school) are nothing to ever be upset about. These were put on by SJWs volunteering and the focus was on protecting ourselves from rape accusations. The simple fact that if you fuck someone who is blacked out, it's likely going to ruin your life was something a lot of us needed to hear. The only "double standard" we were confronted with is that a hetero woman raping a man who has had too much to drink is more rare because dicks don't get hard as easily when men are completely housed. If nor for that class, I wouldn't have realized a buddy of mine was actually raped. I would have just thought he accidentally got laid, but that shit sent him into depression and he had the exact response emotionally and psychologically (didn't think he could talk about it with anyone) that those classes said most rape victims have.

[–]s0nicfreak 4 points5 points6 points 9 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

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[–]asillyduck_ 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]bettereditor 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

In some limited circumstances, yes, it's not possible to achieve an erection and more importantly that it's usually defined as sexual assault when it should be rape. I don't think that's close to a lie. Everyone is different but it comes down to blood flow. I do think the prevalemce is in question because men likely report less than women. In my opininion, it is the law we should be talking about, no matter the statistics. Crimes shouldn't have to occur at the same ratw to be treated equally. We need a redefinition of the crime that occurs when a man is forced to penetrate and a statute protecting men from liability when it results in pregnancy (men have had to pay child support for that). Do you think it's doing more to get in fights online with sjws than it would to up vote critiques of the law? I don't.

The Wikipedia entry links to many studies and is an interesting read in general.

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[–]v574v 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]Ernestovalasqez 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago* (7 children) | Copy Link

Oh please, my own boyfriend tells me to quit being a pussy and grow the fuck up. It's ridiculous to think this is a sexist notion. I have the same opinion of anyone who victimizes themselves and doesn't actually bother to do anything to improve their own situation other than gossip like a bunch of school kids. Of course men are victims. But looking for instances of men being victims doesn't make anything better, and all you are doing is confirming your bias. You're looking for content to get butthurt over, you aren't actually viewing the world for what it is and reacting logically to it. Suffragettes didn't go around posting specific instances of when they couldn't vote or got abused, they went out and got politically involved and fought for their fucking rights. And you know what, men victimized themselves then, too, suggesting any feminist then was an old ugly hag abusing their poor husbands if they even had one. Don't you see the historical context of your attitude on here? Don't you see what history will see you as? Grow UP. Do something meaningful. Whining on Reddit is not it.

Edit: that story yesterday about the fake rape accuser, now that was some fine work, for example. It was real, it was a game changer, and it wasn't just a bitch fest stirring up anger. It was effective. What this post and many like it are doing is stirring shit and creating an unhealthy attitude of mysogyny, women hating. You are becoming outright women haters over here, but doing that doesn't help anybody, all it does is swing the pendulum back again. Try to fucking stop the cycle of victimization and try to push for objective fairness among genders. Jesus Christ.

[–]v574v 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]Ernestovalasqez 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

What? You're thinking way too hard about this, just so that you can keep complaining. We all have to deal with the pros and cons of our identity, this isn't unique to men. Maybe the specific problems are, but that's not to say you don't have pros that go with it that you take for granted, same as any other group of people take their pros for granted. If you want to fight stigmas, whining on a men's rights subreddit is not where you'll change anyone's minds. That's the point I'm making. You're focusing too much on poor you, poor your problems, you can't even consider that literally the things that feed into your problems are the same things that feed into women's gender problems as well. Oh men are expected to be strong? They "have" to be leaders? Women wish they could be seen as leaders. Oh women get to hit men? They can't fucking beat a guy in a fight, they will never be better at sports all in all, men hold all the records, women will never have as lucrative of a career in such endeavors. Can't you see the problems afflicting you afflicts us all? Instead of acting like you're the only victims out there and women are some how the big bad wolf, which is incredibly laughable, why don't you see that we all should be facing these problems together? But no, you guys have to start your own movement, shit on women, and isolate yourselves. Well good luck licking your wounds, but you'll never solve anything that way.

[–]v574v 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

I want men to have the opportunity to opt out of being a protector and provider and not have it reflect on thier social standing just as I want women to have the opportunity to opt in to being a protector and provider and not have it reflect on their social standing.

Women aren't seen as leaders? My town mayor is female. My state leader is female. The chairman of the board for the company I work for is female. (All of these women were democratically elected.) The head of government for my country is female. The head of operations at my job is female. (these are non-elected positions.)

That's a lot of female leadership for a demographic of people who are not seen (by you) as leaders.

I bet you didn't know that many of the MRAs most persuasive voices are female? Consider that - women are the leading voices in men's rights.

It would seem that women can and are able to opt in, but what about men? They still can't opt out - they don't have the choice women do.

Your bias is blinding you to female leadership and male victims.

[–]Ernestovalasqez 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Your anecdotes don't change statistics that show lower numbers of female leadership in companies and government. It also doesn't give credit to how much a woman has to put up with that a man doesn't in order to be in the same position as a man, just as a man likely puts up with more in order to be different than what gender roles expect him to be. For example, a guy who is more feminine, a guy who cries more easily, a guy who wants to be a stay at home dad, a guy who wants to be a teacher for preschool or kindergarten. All those things, guys can do, but they get funny looks. Nope, men are thought of as weird or creepy if they like kids or want to caretake. Women are not encouraged as much to be professors in college, on the other hand. Pretty much any college you look at will have more male professors than female, especially in STEM fields. We can't argue with statistical evidence, and your example of a few women in government doesn't negate that.

I also don't think that your argument about women being the most persuasive voice for MRA is at all a contradiction to my argument here. Having an outsider from a movement endorse a movement is of course going to give a movement validity. Just like when women tried to vote, they couldn't get their rights without the help of feminist men on their side who had the power and thus the responsibility to help.

None of that takes away from my point that this OP and plenty posts like it on here are not effective in convincing anyone who isn't already on board of your plight, it doesn't further your agenda. Same as the BLM strikers who blocked highways and universities got themselves a bad reputation despite their genuine cause, this sub is not making a great argument for men at all. It's just a bunch of wound licking butt hurtedness. I think you are taking my opinion the wrong way if you think I don't believe men don't have problems that deserve to be addressed. It's just the way this sub goes about it that I disagree with. It's whiny, it's hateful, it's centered around being butt hurt but no actual motivation or action. It looks like a bunch of men just bitching whenever I visit it. It's not inviting for anyone who isn't extremely angry for men's rights. I'm not extremely angry, I'm proactive. If you had meaningful conversations with some outreach and educational efforts, if you worked together with feminists who are on the other side of the same coin of the sexism you are both trying to overcome, if you fucking stopped making enemies out of women, it would probably be a lot more effective. But I am of the opinion that you guys just like to feel persecuted. Just like black people complaining racism everytime something bad happens to them, just like women shouting sexism every time something bad happens, you guys are just doing the same thing. You're being the worst part of your own movement and you are holding your entire purpose back.

I am speaking generically. Not you you, but general you encompassing the men who fit the description I'm writing about here, which is indeed many of the people in this sub.

[–]v574v 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

You negate it.

Remember why you are here. You came here to bring these awful men back to the betterment of society by demanding that they remain stoic knights for the advancement of society, but truthfully for the advancement of women. You have no access to their utility but you want it so you are attempting to shame men back to where they serve you best.

You shame men for not supplying you with their utility and then want those same men to work together with you because that's in their best interests? All you will offer them is more shame for not doing what you demand they do for your own gain.

Women in the MRA are not outsiders they are MRA and a lot of them were once gasp feminists. Many of them trolled this subreddit just as you are. Infact, that's how I got here, trolling these people fighting for men's liberation from the utility society demands of them.

Most of the men and women here are egalitarian - we believe in equality. They are effective because people listen to their concerns over men advocating for themselves and they are not as easily dismissed as men are by people like you. Consider that - women have to complain on men's behalf because no one wants to hear men complain and you're one of them.

We should team up? Men's lib was started by feminists and worked alongside feminism in the sixties and it's chief concern was wanting shared custody in the event of a divorce. It's been fifty years and the leading feminist organization in america the national organization for women sends lobbyists to block shared parenting and alimony reform.

We aren't making enemies of women, as I said, we have women among us and they believe in women's rights just as they do men's rights - the two are compatible, but what isn't is feminism. Feminism is not compatible with men's rights. Feminism is not compatible with egalitarian views but egalitarian views are compatible with men's rights and women's rights.

[–]Ernestovalasqez 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Omg you're still victimizing yourself. I'm saying that when women were victims, they didn't just sit there and complain. I'm saying you should also not just sit here and complain, but do something active. This has nothing to do with gender or what men or women should or shouldn't do (because I don't care what anybody does with their personal life), it has to do with what is effective, and what is not effective. I'm simply telling you that posts like these are only effective in building an us vs them mentality and does nothing to push society in the direction you want it to go, where people are more accepting of breaking out of gender norms. It's clear that this is going over your head, though. I'm not going to go in circles over this with you. You can choose to keep posting shit that makes you hate everyone else and never take personal responsibility for anything, and you will go no where with it. Have a blast.

[–]v574v1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

According to you women are still victims - they aren't seen as leaders, remember? You afford women victimhood for something that is not even true to life, but when men bring up a real issue facing all men everywhere (not just a special group of apex women) suddenly being a victim is a bad thing.

How can men access change when they are competing for attention against women's imaginary problems to a group of people who are just as aggressively against men being victims as you?

I lied to you. I suggested that your boyfriend views you as his equal to explain his behaviour and it was a lie. Your boyfriend, like all men, must prove his ability to provide material comfort and physical security. This demand places pressure on him to prove his ability above all others - including yourself. He's basically telling you that he's tougher than you (he's an asset) - you are not his equal and he will do this at every opportunity against everyone but especially males.

Hate people? What an odd thing to say! We love and care for everybody and I want everybody to live with equal freedoms, equal rights, and equal justice. We love men and women the same. We have the audacity to believe that men and women should have equal opportunity.

You agree that men have problems but try to deny men the ability to discuss their problems even in their own subreddit.

It's said that MRA women are the women that feminism promised but never delivered. MRAs believe in gender equality - you don't.

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Which definition of rape are we going by here? The real one, in which either through use of physical force or drugs/alcohol, someone is subdued and the rapist has their way with them? Or the one in which a woman hooks up with a guy after a night of pints and regrets it after? News flash, women are nearly as likely to do this to men as men are to women. Conveniently, the CDC stats on sexual assault don't classify a woman doing this to a man ("forced envelopment") as rape, it's filed away under "other sexual assault."

Sexual violence, like all other forms of violence, is not exclusively male perpetrators and female victims, and it's extremely disingenuous to suggest that it is. In fact, in only making men (and often young boys) promise not to rape, I wouldn't be surprised if this cements the idea in girls' heads that they can't rape which may even increase the prevalence of female on male sexual violence.

Blaming everything on men is a core tenet of feminism that's really abhorrent and doesn't conform to reality.

Besides that, when do we start teaching people not to murder? Or to steal? Oh, we do teach people that, and the ones that murder, steal, and rape don't give a fuck and do it anyway.

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Lol If your father hadn't harassed your mother for sex you wouldn't even be here, Forest. That goes for everyone whose ever lived. If you left reproduction & initiating sex up to women, we would die out quickly. Not to even mention the messages are extremely complicated and contradicting; the no.1 novels of all time that outsell all other books, period, are 'romance novels' that are nothing but books about men basically raping women. Women also hate 'nice' guys and nice guys get nowhere with women. Despite what women say they want an asshole who is going to force himself on her. The only problem for men is they can't read minds & don't know if that includes them personally. Not to even mention that most rape accusations are false made by women trying to get out of trouble, for profit (Bill Cosby) attention, regret & revenge when they don't get their way because most women have all the maturity of a toddler. Learning not to rape from women & feminists is like asking for dating advice from women, just about the most stupid thing you could possibly do & a recipe for disaster.

[–]the_unseen_one 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]EnvironmentalSyrup96 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Title	Old but gold
Author	RJCvanAlphen
Upvotes	8536
Comments	319
Date	June 19, 2017 5:41 AM UTC (9 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/6i4iqj/old_but_gold/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/old-but-gold.920077 https://theredarchive.com/post/920077

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