Why is there always so much pushback to young men who claim that the reason they can’t get a date is 100% the way they look?

bluemagex2517 · 2024-08-04T14:01:25+00:00

Because most of the time that isn't the problem. Maybe you're a rare exception. Maybe your 100% certainty is just wrong.

Experience shows us that the vast majority of the time guys complaining about their looks on this subreddit have other problems that are more important. Literally every time a guy has complained about this on this sub and shared a pic of himself or had a pic posted somewhere else, he's been moderately attractive. This has happened dozens if not scores of times on this subreddit.

If their looks were really good, like exceptionally conveniently good looking, those other problems wouldn't matter as much, but we can't really help them become super conventionally attractive. We can help them to fix all of those other problems, but only if they accept that there are other problems. The problem is most guys who come here for dating advice or to complain are in denial about their problems.

Even if you are a rare exception to this rule, which I'm extremely skeptical about, this isn't a place to just complain about how you can't find women who think you're hot. We try to help black pillers, but this is a space that's about debunking the red pill. We aren't a support group for ugly guys. We aren't a dating advice group.

The primary purpose of this sub is to debunk ideas like the 80/20 rule, beta bucks, and women hit the wall at 30. And to help redpillers deprogram from their toxic beliefs/ end cycles of abuse. Partially it's a place for victims of red pillers to get help, information, and support.

Those things take high priority over coddling dudes who think they're ugly but charismatic, when they're unwilling to prove either of those things, and neither are likely to be the case.

So, if you don't like our answers, if you think most incels are great guys who are ugly and women are too picky and shallow, then fuck off to another subreddit about it. Our answers aren't changing, because experience and logic says they're right.

RustyEnvelopes · 2024-08-04T14:29:27+00:00

Because it's far from clear that is your situation. You state yourself you're in an area with a horrible ratio. Go somewhere where it's 60/40 female to male and do something besides dwell on this nonsense. Get some hobbies and life experiences and be realistic about who would date you and what you bring to the table. Then reevaluate your argument here. As it stands you can't determine that looks are your issue.

IcyTrapezium · 2024-08-04T13:58:34+00:00

Both looks and personality matter. Simple.

Sailor_Gloriana · 2024-08-04T14:29:22+00:00

Because they usually don't actually look that bad, and are using "I'm just too ugly" as an excuse to avoid looking at more serious and complex flaws in their own personality and mentality. Looks are not something that can be easily changed while personality is, but changing personality is often very difficult, time-consuming, and uncomfortable. On the surface, "It's my looks!" seems like a very pessimistic and defeated position, but in reality, it's often a comforting position because it gives a dude an excuse to make his problems other people's responsibility instead of his own ("I'm not the one who needs to stop being so selfish/inconsiderate/self-isolating, etc., the world needs to stop being shallow!").

I can't sit you down, comb through your behavior, psychology, and social circle to diagnose your specific problem with dating, but as another commentor has already said, the "I'm just ugly" excuse just really isn't something that ever holds up.

xweert123 · 2024-08-04T16:23:41+00:00

Simply put, it's because it isn't due to their looks the vast majority of the time. A lot of people who use that excuse either;

Have a horrible and toxic personality, but use looks as a cope because it's easier to swallow if it's something supposedly out of their control.
Have completely unrealistic expectations of what they think women should be doing, and assume they aren't successful due to said unrealistic expectations, but aren't understanding that they aren't actually putting in any work to establish a relationship with someone and just expect it to happen to them suddenly and spontaneously without showing any respect or interest in return.
Think that people who they deem as attractive are simply drowning in pussy, and then assume that their own quite normal social experiences that the vast majority of human beings experience in their same circumstances is somehow subpar to the average individual as a result.

So, earnest question; what do you THINK should be happening with dating? Are you expecting women to go out of their way to hit you up and swoon over you? Are you actively asking people that you're interested in out on dates? You said you're great at establishing friendships and bonds with all sexes so what exactly is it that you're expecting to happen? What exactly are your circumstances?

Conscious_Air_8675 · 2024-08-04T15:24:33+00:00

You don’t have to be good looking to be sexy and not being sexy is likely your problem.

Unless you’re 600lbs and have a wart sticking out of your nose, it’s your personality.

Are you building anything? Are you strong, (mentally or physically)? Do you have purpose? Are you healthy? Are you smart? Are you interesting? Are you good in bed? Are you admired? Are you skilled?

I’ll be friends if they’re cool and nice, but it’s basically because there isn’t any particular reason to dislike them, but that doesn’t mean I’ll be excited to see them; or the first to invite over for a party I’m having.

idiosyncrassy · 2024-08-04T17:07:13+00:00

Coming off as desperate is also a turnoff and people can see it a mile away.
Going to the city on the weekends for a few weeks isn’t really any great effort whatsoever, you gotta be kidding me. That’s literally what everyone used to do, before the invention of dating apps. Congrats, you’re socializing. It does indeed take more effort than sitting inside your house.

NintenJoo · 2024-08-04T15:27:02+00:00

It’s because there are a lot of “ugly” dudes that are attractive.

My dad hounded my mom for a long time when he met her.

She was considered absolutely gorgeous, and my dad was definitely not.

He was very confident and persistent, and 50 years later they are still together and very much still in love.

I’m a fairly attractive dude, but my wife would have left me long ago if I didn’t back that up with a decent personality.

I’ve learned how to act “hotter than I am” because you can make your own attractiveness, no matter what you look like.

Go be attractive. Stop worrying only about looking a certain way.

As people have pointed out, your hang-ups on your physical appearance is not an attractive personality trait.

Be confident, and stop looking for reasons that you’re “failing”.

StarTrippinn · 2024-08-04T18:23:33+00:00

Pics or you’re lying

patch_gallagher · 2024-08-04T14:51:39+00:00

This is the disconnect I see. Good looking, handsome, etc. is not the same as attractive. Attractiveness is a whole cluster of attributes: physical appearance, grooming choices, voice, personality, social status, hobbies, likes and dislikes, social I.q, etc.

This whole package is why Norma Jean Baker was a pretty girl with potential, and Marilyn Monroe, Norma Jean with a bit of plastic surgery, hair bleach, a carefully thought out makeup look, custom clothing, well practiced movement and a consciously sexy voice is a legend.

Men, in general, tend to give more weight to physical appearance and only notice a lot of the other attributes if they are extreme cases.

Women, on the other hand, even though they definitely appreciate handsome faces and fit bodies, tend to care about a lot more of the other things that are part of the attractive package. So they may rate a guy who has only average features and body as super attractive if he dresses well, has a good job and social standing, and genuinely likes to do stereotypically basic things like drink wine, go to fashionable restaurants,etc.

flavius_lacivious · 2024-08-04T16:51:32+00:00

I think men in particular, do not understand grooming. Grooming is not just about making sure you are presentable, it is a strong social cue which says that you are interested in attracting a mate.

It goes way beyond just being clean, but it starts there. What do your teeth look like? Do you have a decent hair cut? Is your skin in good shape? are your clothes not only clean but fashionable (or are you wearing dirty jeans and a hoodie?) Do you smell good like cologne or did you come from the gym?

Notice none of those things gave to do with weight or eye color, facial features, height, etc.

WaffleConeDX · 2024-08-04T22:06:53+00:00

Because it’s usually followed by them thinking only “chads” get women. Unless you look disgustingly disfigured LOOKS is not the reason. There’s plenty of “ugly” couples. Looks are subjective. People who says this have basement dweller personalities. Because there’s no way you go outside and only see 10/10 model esque couples.

LiftSushiDallas · 2024-08-04T15:19:48+00:00

Let's agree it is your looks.

Are you now satisfied?

Q-9 · 2024-08-04T16:50:48+00:00

I fell in love with my ex without knowing how he even looked like.

xvszero · 2024-08-04T17:02:23+00:00

Because nothing is 100% anything. It's just outright false.

SweelFor- · 2024-08-04T17:06:30+00:00

It's because there are worse looking people than you who are in happy relationships.

Aggravating-Shop2795 · 2024-08-04T19:01:47+00:00

This again is a problem when men continue to group all women into one mindset. Most of the men I’ve been with and two husbands have been big men and the last one everyone swore it was pity on my part to be with him because he wasn’t attractive. Look at Janet Jackson and Jermaine Dupree who in my opinion is not only short but unattractive. As well as Jay Z and Beyoncé. I could go on. Men have convinced other men that all women want fit, gorgeous Chad who has money and that’s just not the case across the board.

bjillings · 2024-08-04T19:51:50+00:00

Physical attraction really only gives an advantage in the initial stage of meeting someone. If you have no problem reaching friendship levels with women, then being unattractive isn't your problem.

I have never heard any of the women I know say, " Yeah, he's a terrible person and makes me feel like I'm nothing, but I can't leave because he's just so hot!" Physical beauty fades fast when the personality doesn't match.

None of us know you personally, so if you really want to know what is holding you back from a relationship, ask the women in your life. If you approach it with sincerity and are willing to take any criticism they offer with an open mind, you'll get the answers you need to improve your experience. As women, we're often happy to help someone with self-improvement so they can find success in love as long as we know it isn't going to create hostility towards us and make us feel like we're now unsafe around you.

watsonyrmind · 2024-08-04T13:47:04+00:00

Who told you it only requires a few weeks of effort to find a partner?

ETA: oh, it's you. Everyone here sees your shitty personality on display on a weekly basis, you can't convince us its "objectively" your looks.

ChicoBrillo · 2024-08-04T14:51:19+00:00

Rarely in life can you ever place blame 100% on one factor or quality.

If you don't like a movie there's usually multiple reasons you could give.

Sure, attraction is necessary to get your foot in the door but that does not mean you have to be above average by any means.

A lot of these men you speak of could do simple things like get a better haircut, wear clothes that fit, wear more stylish frames etc, yet they see it as a genetic issue. That they could never in a million years be attractive to anyone.

What a lot of these guys never consider is how much their attitude and outlook is hindering them. If you are obsessively thinking about how ugly you are and how shallow women are, you're setting yourself up for failure.

Also why would women like someone like that who doesn't even seem to like women themselves?

Raging_Dragon_9999 · 2024-08-04T15:08:18+00:00

Dress better. Hire a fashion coach.

OnkelMickwald · 2024-08-04T16:29:15+00:00

Because a lot of people have seen many examples of guys who looked like they were dropped on their face when they were born be popular with girls. And no, the ones I've seen have not been rich either. They've just had ✨something✨ which is hard to pinpoint.

And I guess this is what drives so many guys insane: the fact that it's so hard to figure out why it's not working for you in particular.

But one thing I can recommend to teenage guys is learn music. Seriously.

Allusionator · 2024-08-04T14:28:11+00:00

You don’t know what ‘objectively’ means!!

It’s not what some creep says it is, but seduction is a thing. Grooming, body language, fashion/style, fitness— they’re part of your first impression on ‘looks’ but not a story of your genetic lottery.

Regardless, even doing all of those impression making things badly and having unfortunate facial features/body type whatever else men worry about on their looks which they can’t control— in spite of any of that— romance is still possible even if it is less likely. It’s always, always still a numbers game at the end of the day because no person is special ugly enough that they can’t be loved.

FellasImSorry · 2024-08-04T17:04:49+00:00

You post in here all the time and everyone explains the same shit to you again and again. But it doesn’t make any difference it to you. You’re 100 convinced you’re right already.

So here’s what you want to hear:

No woman cares about anything but looks. It doesn’t matter if you’re an awkward weirdo (which you are definitely not even though every word you post online screams “I’m an awkward weirdo.”)

All the women on earth care only about dating super good looking men. Women don’t care if you’re caring, interesting, funny, charismatic, or cool. Only that you have some specific set of physical characteristics, and this same preference is shared by all women, in all cultures, everywhere.

There are no counter examples that matter because reasons.

Women who say they want something else, or that women have a variety of interests and things that attract them are lying to you. Because all women are exactly the same. And all women are liars.

So you have no chance ever, but the important thing is it’s not your fault. You’re not delusional. You have done nothing wrong. You’re perfect! The world is just aligned against you and this cruel world is all so unfair.

Did I get it right? Is this what you want hear?

ghostglasses · 2024-08-04T16:26:50+00:00

The reason that people say that looks are not the only issue is that almost everyone knows a guy who looks like a troll who is happily married. Women are attracted to other qualities besides looks

nebthefool · 2024-08-04T19:33:39+00:00

It's possible you're coming off as a little needy.

Also, romantic relationships are tricky, they tend to be exclusive so there's a higher barrier to entry. I'll let anyone consider me a friend providing they don't do or say things I consider actively abhorrent (racism for example). A romantic partner has a whole bunch of extra stuff there because I'll want to build a life with that person.

Circling back to my original statement, when you're being sociable with the interest of making a romantic connection it frequently comes of a needy when you're a guy. It's not fair but it is what it is.

"I just do everything I can to get to a place where there are women."

That particurlarly sounds like someone acting out of desperation.

As a general rule, guys blame aspects of their appearance out of their control to avoid self improvement. Your appearance can be very changeable, style and a haircut can radically change your appearance, not to mention good hygeine.

Obviously how you look will be a turn off to some women. Some guys do genuinely look "ugly", though some of them still find wives and girlfriends. So looks likely aren't the be all and end all to dating success.

Difficult_Ferret2838 · 2024-08-04T15:17:12+00:00

Looks might be significant, but it's never 100%. For example, I can immediately tell that you have a dog shit defeatist attitude that women will immediately find repulsive.

AssistTemporary8422 · 2024-08-04T16:02:22+00:00

Why is there always so much pushback to young men who claim that the reason they can’t get a date is 100% the way they look?

Because typically when these people actually do show a picture of themselves they aren't bad looking at all. And when you dig deeper you learn they have a bunch of mental health issues.

I am 100% certain that the thing limiting me is the way I look. I am sure of this because I have no issue developing relationships of any other level of intimacy with any person of any gender. Friendships are incredibly easy to make.

Someone with those nice guy or gay best friend vibes can make friends easily while struggle to get into relationships. Having this issue is typically rooted in anxiety, needy attachment, overly conscientiousness, overly agreeableness, or low self-esteem.

Grand-Connection-234 · 2024-08-04T15:39:20+00:00

You asked previously about your height on dating apps.

The question really is:

Are you still using dating apps?

Because if you are that's the problem...

Dating apps are full of guys not many women.

SufficientDot4099 · 2024-08-04T21:57:29+00:00

There's probably some other valid reason but it is extremely unlikely that the actual reason is their looks

sensibl3chuckle · 2024-08-04T22:04:48+00:00

I don't know what to do with these guys. I see bald guys, short guys, fat guys, etc.... with women all the time. I know a guy who is fat, lazy, doesn't have a job, married to an oral surgeon wife who makes a lot. I don't know how much, but they just built a $11M commercial building.

Melvin-Melon · 2024-08-05T00:25:05+00:00

The reason that’s a stereotype is because every time a meme about women not going for men who “match their looks” from incel spaces get circulated on the wider internet it’s biased. They’ll put women who look like models just without makeup next to guys that don’t even trim their beards or put minimal effort in.

FemaleTrouble7 · 2024-08-05T01:16:43+00:00

Because ugly people debate each other all the time.

Personal_Dirt3089 · 2024-08-05T02:12:48+00:00

because we see a lot of ugly guys with girlfriends and wives. Sure, an ugly guy is less likely to get an Instagram model, but not every woman is an Instagram model.

We also see a lot of redpillers, who tend to think in extreme black and white, using looks as a cop out.

softnmushy · 2024-08-05T04:33:05+00:00

Looked at your profile.

You live in a desolate area, have a bad ratio of men to women, and are completely dependent on online dating.

Online dating doesn’t work for average guys anymore. Especially in areas with a bad ratio. The dating apps are designed to keep you engaged and paying money. And very few women use the apps relative to men.

Basically, things won’t get better for you until you move to an area with more favorable demographics. No amount of Reddit posts will help that. It seems like you are driving yourself crazy trying to fix a problem that can’t be fixed until you are able to move.

oldcousingreg · 2024-08-05T08:04:53+00:00

Because relationships aren’t built on looks. If you’re insecure about your appearance, people can tell. How you carry yourself determines the kind of attention you draw.

redpillnonsense · 2024-08-05T16:27:41+00:00

Most people are normal looking and average at best. You have to have a serious handicap or deformity to be unappealing to the opposite sex.

Unkown64637 · 2024-08-05T19:59:14+00:00

Idk man I’ve had incels “face reveal” to me and they weren’t ugly. So idkkk I really doubt the looks thing sometimes. Most incels are facially anonymous, and the few I’ve seen I was confused as to how they were so sure it was their looks holding them back. There have been times when I looked at an incels face reveal and was like “ur not ugly, like id def go on a date with this face” but I really really can’t get past the woe is me shit. Like seriously it’s not always looks. At least not in my experience

1PettyPettyPrincess · 2024-08-05T20:37:16+00:00

A lot of reasons, but it mostly comes down to (1) that not being generally true for the super majority of men and its unlikely that you’re the exception, (2) it implying that everything else about you is near perfect, and (3) it getting dangerously close to “women are shallow and only care about looks” territory. It is just off putting for some. Even if that’s not your intention, some will interpret what you’re saying as basically saying women are shallow and that’s the only thing holding you back. For example, this is how your question and post could sound to some people:

Why do people pushback so much when young men say that women only care about looks? Ive been putting myself out there and making an effort for about 21 days now and there’s been no success. In those 21 days of effort, no woman has dated me even though I have friends and that’s proof that all women care about is looks. No, it couldn’t be anything else about me, the women in after, or any other factor because I have friends! It just has to be the fact that women only care about looks.

FWIW, I don’t think that’s where you’re going with your post, but a lot of people would.

Also, OP, being someone that people want to have as a friend ≠ being someone that women want to have as a boyfriend/husband. There are a lot of traits that my friends have that I don’t mind (or even like) that I wouldn’t personally want in my boyfriend.

Rasta-Grandpa · 2024-08-04T17:56:10+00:00

No one said looks didn’t matter. Any man, with the right amount of effort, can turn into an 8 on just looks alone. And then the looks also brings about confidence.

Also trust me looking good is only one aspect of it. I know plenty of really physically attractive guys who can’t get girls because they just get way too nervous and can’t talk

Your post history shows you are hyper fixating on this and I promise you women are smelling this from a mile away if this is on the back of your mind while engaging with them

watsonyrmind · 2024-08-04T13:42:43+00:00

Who told you it only requires a few weeks of effort to find a partner?

ladychomsky · 2024-08-06T12:37:13+00:00

Go to a place that you WANT to be at. Like the thing isn’t that you’re unattractive but your presence in a place where you don’t actually want to do anything but meet women and then you slowly get more and more dejected bc you’re not getting attention you want, we can sense that vibe and it’s off putting, frankly.

Expensive_Sport_8678 · 2024-08-07T18:57:10+00:00

if you're failing at meeting women through dating apps, social media and approaching them at a bar/night club or wherever. Then yea, it probably has everything to do with your looks/height. Idc what anyone says

absolutebeginners · 2024-08-08T01:01:26+00:00

more posts about the same topic will result in a ban. you have plenty of answers. Post pictures or stop

Equivalent_Hippo_477 · 2024-08-23T02:37:52+00:00

I wish men would learn to do what women do. Weigh 400 pounds, become the most disgusting thing on two legs and do it all in the name of "body positivity" and then...it's OK! Anyone who doesn't compliment you on your looks is then a bigot! Like Lizzo!

tissue7 · 2024-08-04T14:15:47+00:00

It isn’t comfortable to accept that looks matter a lot. Personality and meeting people matters too but that’s after you pass a threshold of attraction. Sometimes once you know someone for a while feelings can change but in many cases that initial attraction needs to be there to be seen as a potential mate by being good looking enough.

NextAdministration83 · 2024-08-04T14:33:37+00:00

No, it doesn't.

But yes it does.

You're problem is that you're perceiving it in black/white. Ask yourself this- what's your thoughts/attraction towards a woman who has a great vibe but doesn't exactly fit the peak beauty you've come across in other potential interactions/dates....do you throw her away as an option entirely? Or do you acknowledge you still value her as an attractive person that you'd still find perfectly content and happy being with?

Many women are equally as considerate towards looks/personality. Contrary to the fact women have FAR more options- what you personally don't relate to is that this poses FAR more risk as well.

I mean hell, dating from casual to committal has far more personal risk to women both in safety and physical health. Women suffer more from stds, possibly 9 months of debilitating health due to a medically classified parasite permanently changing their body, and that's ignoring the risk of abuse and assault should their trust be misguided.

I say that to dismiss you possibly wanting to give yourself that excuse of "women get to be picky"- they do, but not like a kid in a candy store. More like a lucky dip but some give off way too many signs of biting your hand off.

Now with all that said I'll also say this- I have NEVER gotten so much more attention and desire from women than when i changed my looks with exercise (abs and biceps), dressing for the female gaze etc. I assure you that any insecurity you have about your looks- it's probably true. I have always been appreciated for having girth down there. Always enjoyed for looking clean and unbeknownst to them- shaping my beard to give some semblance of an actual jawline.

Now all THAT said, these are things said by a lot of women who were looking for casual fun primarily. I was 90% just a dildo with arms to them in the first place. So if you want to chase completely empty relationships and extremely unrewarding short term approval from people who only wanted you because you seem like a safe option vs genuine attraction beyond starving yourself to avoid looking chunky- full speed ahead with your developing body dysmorphia.

Point is, your looks aren't going to seal the deal beyond the first impression or two. The importance of your physical traits is only influential when theyre either bored, horny, or both. Sure if you are just after casual fun that's perfect for you then, but anything more and you're focusing too much on an easily pointless trait the moment you socialize with them.

And another side note- it's important that when you compare yourself with "successful men" who get laid with most women- in many MANY cases its not because she was aroused or wooed by his efforts, but because he was an easy lay for her to scratch an itch. Like a woman bragging about "persuading you" to sleep with her when you had been at half-mast before she even came by.

WillyDanflous · 2024-08-04T20:48:37+00:00

People on this subreddit and in our culture right now cannot criticize women as a group. They wont do it. So if they were to acknowledge that looks matter to women alot, and the men that don't have those conventionally attractive attributes (Muscles, low-fat, height, white skin, blue eyes etc.) will have a much harder time dating. They would have to be critical of women. So they deny the claim in the first place. Our culture has no issue telling men today to date fat or unattractive women. We can't dare say to a woman that she should consider dating a man thats shorter. If you dare to say "Women should go fifty fifty with men to update to our modern society and economy" you will receive major pushback from people all over the political spectrum.

But in good faith, genuinely, there are a lot of trash men that are very socially stunted that are not in good shape (overweight, obese). That don't really put effort into the other ways that matter for dating. That just say "oh , since i'm not a 6 foot giga-chad its all over." People on this sub and on the internet often just assume that everybody is the person I just described.

RedditDetox · 2024-08-04T15:52:47+00:00

For some odd reason people just think that personality matters more so when young men say their looks are what’s hurting them, people don’t believe it and think personality is the reason why.

I have a feeling that there’s a lot of older people in these subs who don’t realize that dating or more specifically modern dating has changed and that how dating works in the past is not how it works now. Modern dating has gotten superficial, looks have gotten a lot more objective etc things like that.
There is a gender disconnect too I’ve noticed whenever people try to give advice about dating. For example if a man asks a woman advice about dating, women will say just be yourself or it’ll happen when it happens the problem is is that women say this because this is what works for them. Women give that advice because those things work specifically for women so women think it would also work for men but men have different dynamics and roles for dating so it actually doesn’t work
Back to the looks vs personality thing, they both matter but looks matter more and it’s not for the stereotypical blackpill reasons why. It’s because looks get you in the door to showcase personality. Looks are more important because if the women doesn’t think your at least somewhat attractive they won’t bother to interact with you enough to get to know your personality. Looks matter more but not because of the stereotypical manosphere reasons why

Octopus_Juice · 2024-08-04T16:53:04+00:00

This is going to get downvoted to hell.

OP - Genetics reign supreme. Personality is important of course. But how you look is a largest component when seeking a partner. How you act / demeanor is what keeps people around.

Don’t attempt to force people into seeing things your way. Your reality is your reality.

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