Boys don't have bodily autonomy

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I know plenty of feminists that say they care and that only the crazy feminists act this way but then they turn around and if a man inconveniences them it's suddenly an act of oppression and its back to not giving a shit about men. Mens rights is seen by many as a hate group when all men want is equality but the second we ask for that we are hated on and shunned while being told that we need to check our privilege. Yes our privilege of higher suicide rates, our privilege of going off and dying for the country, our privilege of waiting on the sinking ship as the women are pulled to safety, our privilege of watching our children being given to the mother if there is a divorce. Yes we should check those privileges and be thankful for what as soon as feminists start caring in the high ups we arent going to progress at all.

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There is a gap in your logic. Why and how does being being able to survive outside the womb factually equate to it being a "child?" Why does labeling something a "child" mean we can't abort it? Is someone even considered to be alive if they have no thoughts, life experiences, no feelings of pain, happy, anger etc, and conscious connections to its surroundings? What would you consider to be hurting another "human?" If they can't feel anything, if their conscience doesn't exist and and they are not even aware of a future since they have no brain, how can you take anything away from them?

No offense, but you are equating your moral beliefs to facts and then trying to force them on others.

Pro life likely, without doing heavy research, stems from religions that think we are some mystical thing called a "soul" when in fact (as far as we know) we are a brain, a conglomeration of biological material.

[–]BegottenSpud 3 points4 points5 points 6 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

Who’s “forcing” anything on anyone? I never stated anything I said as fact either, and I didn’t say we can’t still abort them at such a late period, even though I personally think there should be a cut off point late in the game. Despite that, I am pro choice entirely, because I don’t think my views should be enforced upon anyone. The fact that you assumed I’m pro-life, implies you’re being emotional as well.

By your logic, even infants a few months post-birth could be “aborted” since they do not experience emotions according to our standards. They aren’t exactly aware of their futures, and don’t understand their emotions. Do you think that should be allowed?

What I think we agree on, is that we do not know. At that though, if there’s even a small chance it’s murder, why would we risk it?

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Wow I could say the same to you. I'd say the best time to get an abortion is early, if you do it early, then it won't have developed a nervous system, so therefore cannot feel pain.

Murder is based upon malice, abortion is not. Abortion occurs for the physical or mental health of the mother or the child/ other children.

You talk of mental gymnastics but get to the conclusion that supporting abortion = would kill live babies. Jesus. Also decades ago they weren't killing babies if decades ago they primitively outlawed abortion because muh God, they just didn't give them anaesthesia in operations. Killing babies was more of a Spartan thing, not something that happened within the last century.

You also don't seem to understand rape exists, you know the woman may not have wanted to have sex.

You're not sick in the head, just ignorant.

[–]TheOrangeOfLives0 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

We can reasonably assume that the absolute majority of abortions if not performed would have led to a person. How early it’s performed is irrelevant. This is what I was referring to when I mentioned mental gymnastics.

You claim I’m ignorant, yet you don’t even understand the definition of murder. To think it’s justified to kill an unborn child for “mental health” is selfish and evil.

...the crime of killing a person with malice aforethought or with recklessness manifesting extreme indifference to the value of human life.

I came to that conclusion because you seem to love the prospect of kids dying so much that given the “science” of the time you would likely have advocated post-birth abortion, too.

It wasn’t the babies fault if the mother was raped. Adoption exists for many reasons. As unfortunate and traumatic as rape must be - if she becomes pregnant it’s not only about her anymore.

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Development of the neural tube (nervous system that detects pain), occurs very early in foetal development. Early term abortions inflict pain on the foetus, it's just that the foetus can not communicate that pain, or relate it to an identity. Termination is often conducted in an environment that relies on an "out of sight out of mind" attitude to the perceptions of the foetus being terminated, and the careful use of impersonal language.

I have no issue with abortion on request before 12 weeks. Most pregnancies spontaneously terminate in the first 12 weeks anyway. But it appears that the killing of a third trimester foetus (or if you are a democrat, the new born as well), needs to be regulated to specify basic humane procedures with independent oversight. Some of the surgical methods used in third term terminations are outright cruel and barbaric, and completely careless of the pain and experience of the living and aware foetus.

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Body autonomy trumps right to life. Right now you have the option to donate blood. Let's say you have a rate blood type. This would save a person's life. If you don't go through with it, someone will die. You have a right to body autonomy, which means you can't be forced to go through a medical procedure to save another person's life.

Even if you believe a fetus is a person, they are still a person that can only survive by using another person's body. The mother has a right to body autonomy, and can decide if the fetus is allowed to live in the mother's body or not.

If you want to push it to the extreme to demonstrate how incredibly fucked up this is, consider this: If you're not an organ donor and get in a fatal car wreck, and the hospital cannot locate or get consent from next of kin, they cannot harvest your organs. Even if there is someone in the next room that you're liver or heart is a perfect match for, your bodily autonomy even after death trumps that. Basically meaning that your corpse has more rights than a woman with an unwanted pregnancy.

[–]jeff2335 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]mysticdickstick 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

The mother is the life support of the fetus. So no, you are not actively taking the life of the fetus if you cut off its life suport, which is the mother. It's obviously the consequence but that argument you're trying to make is simply wrong.

Whatever the mothers choices had been that led her to become pregnant has no relevance unless you also want to argue that people who get themselves into health risk situations know about such risk and should accept their fate and live with the consequences or even die because they willingly took it and therefore should be denied a medical procedure. You're denying a woman that medical procedure. The procedure to remove the fetus from her body. You also conveniently avoid mentioning women and underage girls who get pregnant through abuse or rape, who had no part in making that choice entirely.

As mentioned in a different comment, abortion is not another means of birth control and it should never be! Almost all women who get pregnant and ever have to make that choice for one reason or another are not taking it lightly and ofter end up emotionally scarred. But it is their choice nonetheless. It's not yours or anybody else's.

[–]jeff2335 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Do you know what an abortion entails? You are not simply cutting the life support of the fetus from the mother, the fetus itself is actively destroyed by different methods. Do a little research, I promise it’ll make you sick...The mothers choice to have sex is absolutely relevant, she knowingly engaged in a behavior that has the possibility of resulting in pregnancy. Now she wants to kill the baby because it’s inconvenient. I didn’t avoid mentioning rape victims, it was implied when I said “she is an active participant”. My argument is based on consensual sex....Wow are you really making the argument that denying a person a life saving medical procedure is the same thing as denying a woman an abortion? Think about that argument for just a minute. One involves providing care to save a life, the other involves taking a life because that life is inconvenient....Well actually it is myself and others responsibility to protect life. We have laws in place to protect life. But for some reason our society has decided that the innocent lives of the unborn aren’t worth protecting, simply because they would be inconvenient.

[–]mysticdickstick 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

I understand that the process of aborting a fetus is absolutely horrifying and should never be done out of simple inconvenience but that is not for YOU or anyone else to decide but for the woman who is confronted with that decision. And to downplay pregnancy by calling it an inconvenience is outright nefarious. It's not just an inconvenience. Raising a child is also not just an inconvenience. Carrying a child to term is also not JUST an inconvenience as well as giving it up for adoption. Nobody is arguing that abortion should be like canceling a appointment. To most women the decision for an abortion is psychologically extremely difficult at best and devastating at worst.

You want to protect innocent life go protect all the millions of orphans and children that are actually already in this world and need food, water, a safe living environment, education, healthcare. But pro lifers don't care about those, they just want babies and women not to have the right to choose whether they want to support a fetus inside their body for 9 months or not. But that's why body autonomy trumps right to life and for a very good reason. You give that right to a dead body who is not using any of its organs but you want to deny it to a woman.

Take this example. You and your mother get into a car accident. The doctors tell you she won't make it unless they merge both your cardiovascular systems for 9 months until her own body is able to heal enough to function on its own. You say yes, of course, she's your mother, right? For 2 months you experience all the ill effects and you had the time to contemplate and boom you change your mind. You love her with all your heart but you just can't live like that for another day. You don't want to even if it's only for 6 more months. The doctors have to separate you, she dies and that's that, period. PERIOD.

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Most 15 year olds know what they are doing and what they are risking if they have sex.

Lol, 15 year olds don't understand anything. They definitely don't understand the facts behind safe sex. And even if they did, once again hormones are going to overrule logic, nearly every time.

If you're going to sit there and honestly say that teenagers don't know that having sex even protected is a risk, then honestly you're a fool.

I'm not saying that. I'm saying, that it doesn't matter. Teenagers are going to have sex because that's what teenagers do. Lemme guess, you support abstinence-only sex education as well? Come on.

As for the "shouldn't/can't" part... do you honestly think that 15 year olds SHOULD be having sex? Really?

Sexual experimentation is a part of growing up. That includes sex, masturbation, and other activities. Experimenting is a healthy part of growing up. These are just facts. I don't think that kids should just be hooking up everywhere, but I do recognize that teenagers, even 15 year olds, are going to have sex. And it's not necessarily bad.

It's strange that I'm having to explain this to you. This conversation is just proving that you are either 12 or a fucking boomer. In either case, fucking learn a thing or two.

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I don't dislike circumcision in general, I just despise infant circumcision.

There is Female Genital Mutilation Type I a, classified by the WHO, which is the removal of the clitoral hood. The clitoral hood develops into the foreskin in male fetus. So FGM Type I a for a girl is what circumcision is for a boy. It is the same bodypart on different genders. The medical term for female mutilation type 1 a is literally "circumcision" too ('circumcision' = 'cutting around'), where as the more severe forms of female genital mutilation have different names. The only difference here: one is illegal, the other is tradition. Some forms of FGM are objectively less destructive than male circumcision like a "ritual pinprick"; all of which are still illegal.

Despite that, cutting female and male genitals have the following similarities:

Over 100 million procedures have been performed on current populations
It's unnecessary and extremely painful
It can have adverse sexual and psychological effects
It's generally done by force on children
It is generally supported by local medical doctors
Pertinent biological facts are not generally known where procedures are practiced
It is defended with reasons such as tradition, religion, aesthetics, cleanliness, and health
The rationale has currently or historically been connected to controlling sexual pleasure
It's often believed there's no effect on normal sexual functioning
It's generally accepted and supported by those who have been subjected to it
Those who are cut feel compelled to cut their children
The choice may be motivated by underlying psychosexual reasons
Critical public discussion is generally taboo where the procedure is practiced
It can result in serious complications up to, and including, death
The adverse effects are hidden by repression and denial
Dozens of potentially harmful physiological, emotional, behavioral, sexual, and social effects on individuals and societies have never been studied
Where female genital cutting is practiced, cutting the genitals of males is also practiced
On a qualitative level, cutting the genitals of male and female children are one and the same thing
To allow us to develop into our maximum individual and social potential, we must stop the cutting of genitals of both sexes

The vast majority of these links are from reputable scientific journals, with peer-reviewed research:

1: Women prefer intact penises Source1 Source2

2: Masturbation feels better

3: Circumcision significantly reduces sensitivity Source1 Source2

4: Circumcised men twice as likely to get infected with cancer-causing HPV

5: Cut men have a more difficult time masturbating

Which was the reason it was promoted in the USA in the first place

6: [Circumcision increases risk of erectile dysfunctions](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=14979200&dopt= Abstract|)

7: If too much skin is removed, it can make the penis smaller since it needs some skin to expand during an erection: Source 1 Source 2

8: Circumcision does not lower the risk of AIDS

9: Circumcision is not more hygienic. Smegma is a mixture of sebaciois oils and dead skin cells. Cut men produce smegma too. Women produce 10 times as much smegma as men. Genitals are not hard to clean.

10: Circumcised foreskin sold to cosmetic manufacturers for profit:

11: Erectile dysfunction 4.5 times more likely to occur if you're circumcised

12: Stanford's school of medicine list of circumcision complications (including infection, haemorraging, skin-bridging, phimosis, amputation and death)

13: Cut infants get long-term changes in pain response from the trauma of being circumcised

14: Circumcision decreases penile sensitivity

15: Circumcision associated with sexual difficulties

16: Circumcision linked to alexithymia

17: The exaggeration of the benefits of circumcision in regards to HIV/AIDS transmission

18: Circumcision/HIV claims are based on insufficient evidence

19: There is no case for the widespread implementation of circumcision as a preventative measure to stop transmission of HIV/AIDS

20: Circumcision decreases sexual pleasure

21: Circumcision decreases efficiency of nerve response in the glans of the penis

22: Circumcision policy is influenced by psychosocial factors rather than alleged health benefits

23: Circumcision linked to pain, trauma, and psychosexual sequelae

24: Circumcision results in significant loss of erogenous tissue

25: Circumcision has negligible benefit

26: Neonatal circumcision linked to pain and trauma

27: Circumcision may lead to need for increased care and medical attention in the first 3 years of life

28: Circumcision linked to psychological trauma

29: Circumcision may lead to abnormal brain development and subsequent deviations in behaviour

30: CONCLUSIONS: This study confirms the importance of the foreskin for penile sensitivity, overall sexual satisfaction, and penile functioning [..] a higher percentage of circumcised men experience discomfort or pain and unusual sensations [..]

31: CONCLUSIONS: Circumcision was associated with frequent orgasm difficulties [..] and with a range of frequent sexual difficulties in women, notably orgasm difficulties, dyspareunia and a sense of incomplete sexual needs fulfilment.

32: CONCLUSION: [..] decrease in masturbatory pleasure and sexual enjoyment after circumcision, indicating that adult circumcision adversely affects sexual function in many men, possibly because of complications of the surgery and a loss of nerve endings.

33: CONCLUSIONS: The glans of the circumcised penis is less sensitive to fine touch than the glans of the uncircumcised penis. [..] Circumcision ablates the most sensitive parts of the penis.

34: Meatal stenosis is markedly more common in circumcised than genitally intact males, affecting 5–20 per cent of circumcised boys.

35: [..] a policy of circumcision for the general population to prevent STIs is not supported by the evidence currently available in the medical literature.

36: Routine circumcision of all infants is not justified from a health or cost-benefit perspective.

An important article about the harmful misdiagnosis of phimosis

NSFW-Difference of the glans between intact and cut after several years

NSFL video of a medical circumcision in America

NSFL gif animation of a ritual circumcision in Africa

NSFL video of a ritual circumcision in Uganda

NSFL pictures of butchered circumcisions

Guardian article about horrible circumcision rituals in Africa

The Real Reason You're Circumcised

About John Harvey Kellog

Malaysian mothers talk casually about how and where to cut their daughters like western mothers about boys

Anatomy lecture, Marilyn Milos

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The penis is not still 100% functional. You're assuming that the foreskin has no function, it clearly does.

And no, we do not routinely preemptively non consensually remove "skin defects" to prevent cancer. We remove them only when they develop a problem and usually when there's no alternate less invasive treatment, and with the consent of the patient. And regardless, the foreskin is not a "skin defect."

But all that aside, is your argument that, if the body part is "decimated" then that's the line for whether it's okay or not to preemptively amputate to reduce cancer risk? What if we consider that, in the US, new penile cancer cases only amount to about 3000 per year, whereas new breast cancer cases amount to over 250,000 per year. Seems like a lot of cancer we could prevent if we started doing routine mastectomies.

[–]DanteLivra10 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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Oh so you can exaggerate a story to help a point even though it’s completely crazy. My point was they aren’t removing the whole penis, and it still functions 100%. You’re talking about complete dismemberment, a made up procedure, but using it as a legitimate comparison. I get what you’re saying, but they’re not the same.

You can’t say there is no medical benefit if properly cleaned. There are potential risks involved outside of a stinky dick.

I don’t have an agenda (besides telling people to mind their own business if that counts) because I don’t think either choice is bad. 90% of the people I know are circumcised and have no problems. The fact that people say it’s the most traumatizing experience in a man’s life(especially with modern practice) is bogus in my mind because all the personal stories say otherwise here. All the lingering problems people talk about on this sub (dry sex, lifelong trauma) have never been a problem for me, but I’ve seen enough people saying their foreskin caused issues at some point in their life, forcing them into the procedure.

You’re 10,000% against it, which is you’re right and personal choice.

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I don't dislike circumcision in general, I just despise infant circumcision.

There is Female Genital Mutilation Type I a, classified by the WHO, which is the removal of the clitoral hood. The clitoral hood develops into the foreskin in male fetus. So FGM Type I a for a girl is what circumcision is for a boy. It is the same bodypart on different genders. The medical term for female mutilation type 1 a is literally "circumcision" too ('circumcision' = 'cutting around'), where as the more severe forms of female genital mutilation have different names. The only difference here: one is illegal, the other is tradition. Some forms of FGM are objectively less destructive than male circumcision like a "ritual pinprick"; all of which are still illegal.

Despite that, cutting female and male genitals have the following similarities:

Over 100 million procedures have been performed on current populations
It's unnecessary and extremely painful
It can have adverse sexual and psychological effects
It's generally done by force on children
It is generally supported by local medical doctors
Pertinent biological facts are not generally known where procedures are practiced
It is defended with reasons such as tradition, religion, aesthetics, cleanliness, and health
The rationale has currently or historically been connected to controlling sexual pleasure
It's often believed there's no effect on normal sexual functioning
It's generally accepted and supported by those who have been subjected to it
Those who are cut feel compelled to cut their children
The choice may be motivated by underlying psychosexual reasons
Critical public discussion is generally taboo where the procedure is practiced
It can result in serious complications up to, and including, death
The adverse effects are hidden by repression and denial
Dozens of potentially harmful physiological, emotional, behavioral, sexual, and social effects on individuals and societies have never been studied
Where female genital cutting is practiced, cutting the genitals of males is also practiced
On a qualitative level, cutting the genitals of male and female children are one and the same thing
To allow us to develop into our maximum individual and social potential, we must stop the cutting of genitals of both sexes

The vast majority of these links are from reputable scientific journals, with peer-reviewed research:

1: Women prefer intact penises Source1 Source2

2: Masturbation feels better

3: Circumcision significantly reduces sensitivity Source1 Source2

4: Circumcised men twice as likely to get infected with cancer-causing HPV

5: Cut men have a more difficult time masturbating

Which was the reason it was promoted in the USA in the first place

6: [Circumcision increases risk of erectile dysfunctions](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=14979200&dopt= Abstract|)

7: If too much skin is removed, it can make the penis smaller since it needs some skin to expand during an erection: Source 1 Source 2

8: Circumcision does not lower the risk of AIDS

9: Circumcision is not more hygienic. Smegma is a mixture of sebaciois oils and dead skin cells. Cut men produce smegma too. Women produce 10 times as much smegma as men. Genitals are not hard to clean.

10: Circumcised foreskin sold to cosmetic manufacturers for profit:

11: Erectile dysfunction 4.5 times more likely to occur if you're circumcised

12: Stanford's school of medicine list of circumcision complications (including infection, haemorraging, skin-bridging, phimosis, amputation and death)

13: Cut infants get long-term changes in pain response from the trauma of being circumcised

14: Circumcision decreases penile sensitivity

15: Circumcision associated with sexual difficulties

16: Circumcision linked to alexithymia

17: The exaggeration of the benefits of circumcision in regards to HIV/AIDS transmission

18: Circumcision/HIV claims are based on insufficient evidence

19: There is no case for the widespread implementation of circumcision as a preventative measure to stop transmission of HIV/AIDS

20: Circumcision decreases sexual pleasure

21: Circumcision decreases efficiency of nerve response in the glans of the penis

22: Circumcision policy is influenced by psychosocial factors rather than alleged health benefits

23: Circumcision linked to pain, trauma, and psychosexual sequelae

24: Circumcision results in significant loss of erogenous tissue

25: Circumcision has negligible benefit

26: Neonatal circumcision linked to pain and trauma

27: Circumcision may lead to need for increased care and medical attention in the first 3 years of life

28: Circumcision linked to psychological trauma

29: Circumcision may lead to abnormal brain development and subsequent deviations in behaviour

30: CONCLUSIONS: This study confirms the importance of the foreskin for penile sensitivity, overall sexual satisfaction, and penile functioning [..] a higher percentage of circumcised men experience discomfort or pain and unusual sensations [..]

31: CONCLUSIONS: Circumcision was associated with frequent orgasm difficulties [..] and with a range of frequent sexual difficulties in women, notably orgasm difficulties, dyspareunia and a sense of incomplete sexual needs fulfilment.

32: CONCLUSION: [..] decrease in masturbatory pleasure and sexual enjoyment after circumcision, indicating that adult circumcision adversely affects sexual function in many men, possibly because of complications of the surgery and a loss of nerve endings.

33: CONCLUSIONS: The glans of the circumcised penis is less sensitive to fine touch than the glans of the uncircumcised penis. [..] Circumcision ablates the most sensitive parts of the penis.

34: Meatal stenosis is markedly more common in circumcised than genitally intact males, affecting 5–20 per cent of circumcised boys.

35: [..] a policy of circumcision for the general population to prevent STIs is not supported by the evidence currently available in the medical literature.

36: Routine circumcision of all infants is not justified from a health or cost-benefit perspective.

An article about the harmful misdiagnosis of phimosis

NSFW-Difference of the glans between intact and cut after several years

NSFL video of a medical circumcision in America

NSFL gif animation of a ritual circumcision in Africa

NSFL video of a ritual circumcision in Uganda

NSFL pictures of butchered circumcisions

Article about horrible circumcision rituals in Africa

The Real Reason You're Circumcised

John Harvey Kellog

Brian Morris

Malaysian mothers talk casually about how and where to cut their daughters like western mothers about boys

Anatomy lecture, Marilyn Milos

[–]TheAndredal2 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]olaisk-1 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You despise infant circumcision but you’d rather force until an adult has to do it, where it’s much more risky and painful. Do you also oppose teens taking hormones for a sex change because they’re not 18 yet? This idiotic argument can only be made by someone who doesn’t understand a single thing about how the body works.

I’ll go through each of these articles and present counters but for now I’ll address the first one. Women prefer intact penises is horse shit, the population is clearly selected. Here’s a real study that proves the opposite https://www.issm.info/news/sex-health-headlines/study-finds-that-some-women-prefer-circumcised-penises/.

This is the fundamental problem with scientism. Idiots can post a bunch of links to articles they hand picked to support their view point and feel like they’re right. This is the highest level of idiocy because it’s immune to logic and facts.

Anti abortion folks will never get abortion illegal and you will never make circumcision illegal. But you’re welcome to keep trying just like they are. You will never win.

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It’s more than just a religious thing. The foreskin on a penis completely covers the penis when it’s not pissing or ejaculating. Guys with bad hygiene will get smegma the smell is worse than any yeast infection, athletic gear possible. It smells like rotting flesh and can require surgery to remove.

I was circumsized at birth and I AM GLAD MY PARENTS DID THAT FOR ME. It would be traumatic to go through that and feel the pain on my dick weeks after surgery. I knew a guy in high school who got circumsized as a sophomore and said he would’ve preferred it happen as a baby as well. It’s not “just about autonomy” like everyone in here is claiming. Most of the decision comes down to hygiene, and since most people are like me and my friend, most people would rather not remember it or the pain that stays for weeks after a cut up dick. They would rather have no memory or pain from the event

[–]IngoTheGreat 8 points9 points10 points 6 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

There is no convincing evidence that circumcision is useful or necessary in terms of prevention or hygiene. Partly in the light of the complications which can arise during or after circumcision, circumcision is not justifiable except on medical/ therapeutic grounds. Insofar as there are medical benefits, such as a possibly reduced risk of HIV infection, it is reasonable to put off circumcision until the age at which such a risk is relevant and the boy himself can decide about the intervention, or can opt for any available alternatives.

Contrary to what is often thought, circumcision entails the risk of medical and psychological complications. The most common complications are bleeding, infections, meatus stenosis (narrowing of the urethra) and panic attacks. Partial or complete penis amputations as a result of complications following circumcisions have also been reported, as have psychological problems as a result of the circumcision.

Non-therapeutic circumcision of male minors is contrary to the rule that minors may only be exposed to medical treatments if illness or abnormalities are present, or if it can be convincingly demonstrated that the medical intervention is in the interest of the child, as in the case of vaccinations.

Non-therapeutic circumcision of male minors conflicts with the child’s right to autonomy and physical integrity.

The KNMG calls on (referring) doctors to explicitly inform parents/carers who are considering non-therapeutic circumcision for male minors of the risk of complications and the lack of convincing medical benefits. The fact that this is a medically non-essential intervention with a real risk of complications makes the quality of this advice particularly important. The doctor must then record the informed consent in the medical file.

The KNMG respects the deep religious, symbolic and cultural feelings that surround the practice of non-therapeutic circumcision. The KNMG calls for a dialogue between doctors’ organisations, experts and the religious groups concerned in order to put the issue of non-therapeutic circumcision of male minors on the agenda and ultimately restrict it as much as possible.

There are good reasons for a legal prohibition of non-therapeutic circumcision of male minors, as exists for female genital mutilation. However, the KNMG fears that a legal prohibition would result in the intervention being performed by non-medically quali ed individuals in circumstances in which the quality of the intervention could not be suf ciently guaranteed. This could lead to more serious complications than is currently the case.

Royal Dutch Medical Association (KNMG). Emphasis added.

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So, clean only the outside, then once he is older ask him to begin gently pulling it back, but specify if he can't that's alright?

Yep

And then, will there be any other maintenance needed until the inside can be cleaned?

Nope.

And, is there any sort of itchiness or anything that will let him know he should be able to pull it back?

I wish I knew. My parents cut me. I refused to cut my boys. So I'm learning from them. Luckily, having a penis is like having a toy in your pocket. Little boys are going to play with their bits, and they'll figure out rolling it back on their own. You can try rolling it back for them while in the bath, or ask them to do it if they're old enough to understand, but you shouldn't be applying any real pressure while pulling back. Pull it as far as it will naturally go, and no further. Obviously if they're in pain you should stop, but it shouldn't even get that far.

I've heard it is less likely to have a no reason boner if you're uncircumcised

I suppose in theory? There are ~10,000 or so nerves that aren't removed when you don't cut them, which in turn means it's going to be more sensitive. They're not going to be walking around with stiffies 24/7. And boner protection isn't really a great reason to mutilate a child, anyway (not saying you were going to cut them just to prevent boners; just saying that's a pretty crazy idea).

It turns out that a natural penis works in the way that a penis is supposed to work. Any significant penile dysfunction is generally a result from circumcision, not the other way around. Which is to say, a natural penis should be the benchmark of penis-ness, not a cut penis.

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Thank you for having an open mind, and thank you for taking care of your future children.

You should know that, while attitudes are changing and circumcision is becoming less common every day, there's a possibility you will meet with fierce resistance if you choose not to circumcise.

Everyone from your spouse, to your family, to doctors, may attempt to bully you into doing it. Even right after giving birth, sometimes Doctors will literally try to trick the mother into signing for it while she's still drugged up.

I'm not saying it will happen, and hopefully, you won't have to deal with it. But it's possible, and some people are just strangely adamant that all babies must be circumcised and will fight you over it. Best thing is to educate yourself and be firm in your position.

http://www.cirp.org/

Also it's hard to watch, but if you really want to cement your opinion against it, just watch a video of the procedure. I think if more people actually had to watch it they would realize what a horrible thing it is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCLM6P8tc2E&list=PLSrzsYVegJBRmTV_WW5zMGYFq6iiOcwQd&index=73&t=142s

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So fucked! Just teach your dam kids how to clean their damn dick and if you can't you shouldn't have kids. It's worth the risk of a botched circumcision? Just because of rumors of hygiene and preventing STDs and just for looks. Such a hypocrite don't tell me what to do with my body! But I have a right to physically change and alter my own child's body before they could even give permission. Such an unnecessary procedure. Men who are not circumcised have more sensation and it can be less painful for the woman if they already have painful sex. My husband's is uncircumcised and thank goodness for his mother's decision to say no. It's simple clean your dick everyday. If there's not going to be a damn law in place to protect young baby boys. Mother should be forced to watch a video like in an abortion clinic. Show them pictures and videos of people getting interviewed who have been affected by being circumcised. Why is it not okay for baby girls to be circumcised but it's okay for boys to be circumcised! People just need to f****** think. Educate yourself.

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The commonly claimed benefits of circumcision are that it reduces the risk of getting UTIs, penile cancer, and prevents STDs. These claims are based on reports made by the American Association of Pediatrics. But there is a lot of criticism regarding their research. The important points are mentioned below:

It takes around 100 circumcisions to prevent a single UTI, and UTIs can be treated easily by other less invasive ways, like antibiotics. Not to mention, it is easily prevented with basic hygiene. 1 case of UTI may be prevented at the cost of 2 cases of haemorrhage, infection, or, in rare instances, more severe outcomes or even death. This negates whatever minuscule protective benefit circumcision might have against UTIs. And it should be noted that girls are about 10 times more likely to get UTIs and yet we do not alter their bodies to reduce their risk of infection
Penile cancer is one of the rarest forms of cancer in the Western world (∼1 case in 100,000 men per year, rarer than male breast cancer), almost always occurring at a later age with the average being 68. When diagnosed early, the disease generally has a good survival rate. According to the AAP report, between 909 and 322,000 circumcisions are needed to prevent 1 case of penile cancer. Penile cancer is linked to infection with HPV, which can be prevented without tissue loss through condom use and prophylactic inoculation. Incidence rates of penile cancer in the United States, where ∼75% of the non-Jewish, non-Muslim male population is circumcised, are similar to rates in northern Europe, where ≤10% of the male population is circumcised
The studies that claim circumcision prevents STDs often confuse correlation with causation. In fact, circumcision might increase the risk of contracting STDs, because it can cause pain and bleeding, increasing the risk of infection. The authors of the AAP report forget to stress that responsible use of condoms, regardless of circumcision status, will provide close to 100% reduction in risk for any STD

Another common claim is that circumcision reduces the risk of men contracting HIV by 60%. These were the results of some trials done in Africa, which found that 2.5% of intact men and 1.3% of circumcised men got HIV. The 60% figure is the relative risk (2.5%-1.2%)÷2.5%. The AAP also ignored the statistics showing that there was a 61% relative increase (6% absolute increase) in HIV infection among female partners of circumcised men. It appears that the number of circumcisions needed to infect a woman was 16.7, with one woman becoming infected for every 17 circumcisions performed

Moreover, there were several methodological errors in these trials:

The circumcised experimental group got more medical care, including education on the proper use of condoms
The trials were terminated early when statistical significance was reached
In one study, circumcised men's infection rates were increasing faster than the intact men's, until the study was terminated early
The circumcised group could not have sex for 4-6 weeks after the circumcision; this was excluded from the analysis and distorts the results
HIV was contracted through means other than sex
Many researchers had cultural and religious biases

The findings are also not in line with the fact that the United States combines a high prevalence of STDs and HIV infections with high circumcision rates. The situation in most European countries is the reverse: low circumcision rates combined with low HIV and STD rates. Therefore, other factors play a more important role in the spread of HIV than circumcision status. This also shows that there are alternate, less intrusive, and more effective ways of preventing HIV than circumcision, such as consistent use of condoms, safe-sex programs, easy access to antiretroviral drugs, and clean needle programs

Further criticism of the African RCTs:

Critique of African RCTs into Male Circumcision and HIV Sexual Transmission

Circumcision of male infants and children as a public health measure in developed countries: A critical assessment of recent evidence

Sexually Transmitted Infections and Male Circumcision: A Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis

Even if circumcision did reduce rates of HIV transmission, which it doesn't, it would be a small reduction. “The number needed to [circumcise] to prevent one HIV infection varied, from 1,231 in white males to 65 in black males, with an average in all males of 298. The model did not account for the cost of complications of circumcision. In addition, there is a risk that men may overestimate the protective effect of being circumcised and be less likely to adopt safe sex practices.”

And besides all of that, babies are not having sex. They are not transmitting ANY STDs to anyone. By the time a person is old enough to engage in sexual activities, they are old enough to decide about such body modifications for themselves

Balanitis is extremely rare. Having a surgical incision in a dirty diaper increases the risk of balanitis. This risk decreases in all males drastically after puberty. It is easily preventable with good hygiene and most cases respond to treatment in under a week

Phimosis doesn't warrant circumcision. It can be cured by stretching the foreskin gently at regular intervals. For faster results, steroid creams can also be used. If stretching doesn't work, surgery like Z-plasty and preputioplasty can be done as a last resort. None of these treatments results in the loss of tissue. Moreover, some doctors misdiagnose phimosis in young children, when they're supposed to have foreskins which can't retract, until puberty, though in some cases the foreskin becomes retractable earlier. Improper handling of the foreskins of children can cause phimosis

"An estimated 0.8% to 1.6% of boys will require circumcision before puberty, most commonly to treat phimosis. The first-line medical treatment of phimosis involves applying a topical steroid twice a day to the foreskin, accompanied by gentle traction ... allow[ing] the foreskin to become retractable in 80% of treated cases, thus usually avoiding the need for circumcision."

Smegma and hygiene are ridiculous reasons for circumcision. Properly washing the penis is enough. If you don't wash your junk, it will get dirty, period. Foreskins aren't releasing a constant ooze of smegma. You would have to neglect your basic hygiene for some time to get a significant buildup. And even then, washing takes maybe a second or two. It's not rocket science

The legitimacy of research supporting circumcision

The literature review by the American Academy of Pediatrics, which supports circumcision, does not mention any of the functions of the foreskin, implying that it is useless

Ethicist Brian Earp shows how scientific literature can be filled with bias, how medical literature can get biased with controversial opinions disguised as systematic reviews, and how a small group of researchers with an agenda can rig a systematic review in medicine to make it say whatever they want.

Opposition to circumcision by foreign medical organizations

Other medical associations and doctors in the world, from the Netherlands, Canada, the United Kingdom, Australia and New Zealand, Germany, Finland, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Belgium, Slovenia and South Africa have stated that circumcision causes complications, have also said that the evidence supporting circumcision is insufficient and flawed, and consider the AAP's views scientifically unsound. Some of them have gone on record in opposition to non-therapeutic circumcision of boys. Some doctors in the US oppose it too

Functions of the Foreskin

The foreskin has several unique physiological functions. The foreskin represents at least a third of the penile skin. It protects the glans from abrasion and contact with clothes. It also increases sexual pleasure by sliding up and down on the shaft, stimulating the glans by alternately covering and exposing it. Not to mention that it is highly erogenous tissue in and of itself.

Attempts to legitimize FGM

Another issue with using "health benefits" to justify infant male circumcision is that the same poor reasons given for baby boys are the same reasons being used in attempts to legalize and legitimize FGM on girls. They will try and use the logic that: "If it is legal on boys because there are slight medical benefits, then it should be legal and acceptable for girls as well."

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCuy163srRc&t=3s

http://www.cirp.org/pages/parents/FAQ/

Instead of asking why NOT to do it, ask, why TO do it?

The "health benefits" are ridiculously small. In the very unlikely event your son's foreskins ever have a problem, there are many alternate treatments that don't involved amputation. The only "health benefit" that could even apply to a child is reduction in UTI's, which again, a very small % of boys ever get anyway, and can be easily treated with antibiotics. It can cause sexual dysfunction, in fact it was first adopted in Western nations as a way to suppress male sexuality. It removes 80% of the nerve endings in the penis. It causes desensitization of the penis, as the glans and inner foreskin which are supposed to be internal organs and remain moist and covered, are exposed, and eventually get covered in a layer of keratin. It removes the penis's natural ability to self lubricate and glide in and out of the vagina and decreases sexual sensation for the female partner. And in some cases of botched circumcision, can cause complete amputation of the entire penis, and even death, a small chance of this, but is that a risk you want to take?

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I really try to see your point. I really do. And I think I understand what you are trying to say. But - as much as I personally like precise speech - context always matters. After all, this thread is basically a discussion about circumcision.

If that is not what you mean, please clarify, but it looks like you're trying to justify or at least rationalize a very gruesome action. Nobody ever questioned net-positive actions like vaccinations or actually necessary surgery. Of course those technically violate the right to bodily autonomy, but these things are always procedures with extremely minor risks compared to the benefits. Like a little pinch with a very, very small chance of complications vs diseases like measles, which do much more permanent harm. I think no one in their right mind would question that.

[–]RubeNation -1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I too like to be precise in my speech. Let me sort this out to 2 completely independent points/questions: 1. Is Circ good or bad? 2. Does a parent have the right to "violate the Bodily autonomy" of their children?

The person I was arguing with said #1 is bad strictly because he believes that the answer to #2 is "no". I am arguing that 2 things can be true at once. #1 can be bad, AND parents actually have an obligation to "violate bodily autonomy" of their children when it is in their best interest to do so. Anyone with children knows that this happens 10s, sometimes 100s of times a day. Your infant is never going to tell you what is wrong, or give you permission to take care of them, parents must do it for them, "bodily autonomy" be damned. That's it. I never once argued #1 is good. I only argued that #2 is completely independent from #1 in my opinion. #1 can be yes OR no, but #2 is absolutely yes. What he was presenting was a false dichotomy: If you believe #2 is Yes, then you MUST BELIEVE #1 is emphatically yes. which, of course, is inherently false

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Others have already pointed out good reasons for why we're against it. I hate it because it's an unnecessary practice. I hate it because I hear men tell me that if they weren't cut then women wouldn't find them attractive. I hate that cutting a baby's penis is considered so normal in parts of the world that people actually judge you for not having it done and actually view you as less.

To me it's still akin to FGM (no matter how many times people want to minimalise it). People say that babies don't feel it when the foreskin is removed (I've seen enough videos on this topic to know a baby on the receiving end of that knife is going to scream holy murder, so no) or that "oh it doesn't matter, they won't remember the pain and once it's done it's done!", but can you imagine the outcry if we made infibulation legal? And had dads saying "I want her to look and feel just like her mommy!" as they cut off the hood to make it more appealing?

I understand that it's not a 1 to 1 thing, like a penis doesn't get stitched (At least I hope it doesn't anywhere in the world lol) but that bristling anger that people feel when it's baby girls being cut up is the same feeling I get when I think about baby boys going through getting cut up, except I'm looking at a world that tells me this is completely fair, fine and normal.

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[–]Lethn6 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]lucky_23-3 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]areslashgringo -2 points-1 points0 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]TheAndredal[S] 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]LogicIsGone80 -11 points-10 points-9 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]C7000x 8 points9 points10 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]TheAndredal[S] 7 points8 points9 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]cyanobyte -16 points-15 points-14 points 6 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]TheAndredal[S] 15 points16 points17 points 6 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[+]cyanobyte -13 points-12 points-11 points 6 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]TheAndredal[S] 12 points13 points14 points 6 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[+]cyanobyte -11 points-10 points-9 points 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]TheAndredal[S] 8 points9 points10 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]termedcircle-2 points 6 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]TheAndredal[S] 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]TheGreatestAccount 9 points10 points11 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]BenMcLean -23 points-22 points-21 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]TheAndredal[S] 6 points7 points8 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]pinkeythehoboken22 14 points15 points16 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]preppyprepface -31 points-30 points-29 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]SilentDroid75 -34 points-33 points-32 points 6 years ago (31 children) | Copy Link

[–]boringcarpets 15 points16 points17 points 6 years ago (22 children) | Copy Link

[–]SilentDroid75-14 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]TheGreatestAccount7 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]SilentDroid755 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]boringcarpets6 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]the_crx-15 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Aloha_Tradin_Co17 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]the_crx-19 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]MushroomTaco13 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]the_crx-5 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]MushroomTaco4 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]MenschMitAugen28 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]the_crx-4 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]MenschMitAugen26 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]the_crx0 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]MenschMitAugen23 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]the_crx-1 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]MenschMitAugen22 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]the_crx-1 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]MenschMitAugen22 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]boringcarpets5 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]the_crx-3 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]boringcarpets4 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Tepa_Tassuliini 22 points23 points24 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]TheAndredal[S] 7 points8 points9 points 6 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]SilentDroid75 -5 points-4 points-3 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]TheAndredal[S] 10 points11 points12 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]SilentDroid75 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]poppinmollies -4 points-3 points-2 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]TheAndredal[S] 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]poppinmollies 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 6 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]Lethn 11 points12 points13 points 6 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]TheAndredal[S] 4 points5 points6 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Satans_Pretty_Cumrag -3 points-2 points-1 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]experoids 6 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]TheAndredal[S] 11 points12 points13 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]wallerdog -39 points-38 points-37 points 6 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

[–]az226 21 points22 points23 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]TheAndredal[S] 7 points8 points9 points 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]wallerdog -5 points-4 points-3 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]TheAndredal[S] 4 points5 points6 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]wallerdog -1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Sugariie 6 points7 points8 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Tepa_Tassuliini 13 points14 points15 points 6 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]wallerdog-13 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Tepa_Tassuliini13 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]wallerdog-15 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]bowsers_dick9 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]wallerdog-1 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[+]Fox-Costeo -50 points-49 points-48 points 6 years ago (20 children) | Copy Link

[–]Tepa_Tassuliini 25 points26 points27 points 6 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]Fox-Costeo-23 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Tepa_Tassuliini24 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Sugariie13 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]boringcarpets13 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Fox-Costeo-15 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]iainmf7 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]pinkeythehoboken22 21 points22 points23 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Fox-Costeo-12 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]TheAndredal[S] 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Fox-Costeo -2 points-1 points0 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]TheAndredal[S] 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Fox-Costeo -2 points-1 points0 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]TheAndredal[S] 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]edaly8 4 points5 points6 points 6 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]Fox-Costeo -5 points-4 points-3 points 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]edaly8 5 points6 points7 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Fox-Costeo -4 points-3 points-2 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[+]stevostein99 -51 points-50 points-49 points 6 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]Bjumseskat 30 points31 points32 points 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 26 points27 points28 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Bjumseskat 14 points15 points16 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]stevostein99 7 points8 points9 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]thwip62 4 points5 points6 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]boringcarpets 3 points4 points5 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]BurntBacn 13 points14 points15 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]TheAndredal[S] 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]some1thing1 -42 points-41 points-40 points 6 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

[–]Tepa_Tassuliini 19 points20 points21 points 6 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[+]some1thing1 -12 points-11 points-10 points 6 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 12 points13 points14 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[+]some1thing1 -11 points-10 points-9 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]boringcarpets 10 points11 points12 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]TheAndredal[S] 8 points9 points10 points 6 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

[–]some1thing1-4 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]TheAndredal12 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]some1thing1-3 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]TheAndredal10 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]some1thing1-1 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]jasperspaw5 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]some1thing1-1 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]jasperspaw6 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]some1thing1-1 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Title	Boys don't have bodily autonomy
Author	TheAndredal
Upvotes	2863
Comments	652
Date	March 26, 2020 1:48 PM UTC (6 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/fpbs86/boys_dont_have_bodily_autonomy/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/boys-dont-have-bodily-autonomy.1199587 https://theredarchive.com/post/1199587

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