MRAs, what common MRA point/argument do you disagree with, and why?

Pinuspalustris · 2016-09-04T05:23:01+00:00

Can we please not downvote these people? Come on guys, OP specifically requested unpopular opinions, of course you're probably going to disagree.

MagicTampon · 2016-09-04T06:27:32+00:00

Deansdale · 2016-09-04T08:33:46+00:00

I have problems with two general trends/concepts in the MRM:

The idea that we should fight for victim status for men too; this will never work, and even if it would, that would be a bad thing, as our societies really need to end the idiotic "victim culture" ASAP. What actual male victims need is not publicity, "raising awareness", or to be cuddled by the grievance industry, but discreet and effective personal help, that should be managed by discreet organizations that treat men as human beings, not props in their quest for taxpayers' money. I often cringe when people consider it a victory if the media talks about male victims of this or that - it won't help men in the long run, it will just make us seem dickless and childlike, an easy target for more masculine cultures like islam. In this day and age we should grow bigger balls and stand up to the dangers we face, but instead we seem to want a collective mommy we can run to to cry a bit.
Practically the same problem in a different light is that many in the MRM seem to want the government to always step in and make rules, to deliver justice, to regulate matters. This is the exact opposite of what we should aim for, as giving more power to the government over our own personal lives can only lead to loss of privacy, and a lack of recourse when the government inevitably fucks us over. When the government imprisons men for decades for crimes they didn't commit, for crimes that don't deserve such draconian punishment, or based on definitions warped by feminist propaganda, what we need is not to do the same to women, but to reverse all the stupid decisions that led us here. We should fight against the feminist-inspired rape and pedo hysterias instead of trying to extend them over women as well. It's really, really stupid to keep running to the government demanding to punish more and more things and to punish them ever more severely, it will lead to endless pain and suffering for us all. Generally speaking we should demand the government to intrude into our private matters only when there's a definite need for that, otherwise it should stay the hell away from our families, sex lives, divorces, businesses, etc. We're headed towards a dystopia where the government regulates how and when you can see your own children, how you're allowed to raise them, how you can talk and act when in the private company of your family, etc.; and some people in the MRM seem to facilitate this change by demanding we give more power to the government so it can "protect us" or our rights from our ex-wives or whatever. We need to find other solutions that don't involve giving up control of our own personal lives to the government.

redditorriot · 2016-09-04T12:55:56+00:00

That Amy Schumer is a rapist.

Pointing out the horrific double standards is very important, but I don't want to stoop to the level of feminism claiming that everything is rape. I'd rather we got back to sensible standards for all.

matthew_lane · 2016-09-04T06:16:51+00:00

MRAs, what common MRA point/argument do you disagree with, and why?

MGTOW. I have no problem with the idea of men not wanting anything to do with marriage or even co-habitation, that's a reasonable thing given our current legal atmosphere.

No, my problem is with the people who self identify as such like it's their identity, like you some how are special, or deserve an award.

Worse yet are the people who pretend like they got special magical powers from doing so, because they are always pretending they get magical vagina attracting powers. We all know you don't, so please stop pretending.

MemesDontLie · 2016-09-04T07:21:57+00:00

I'm not sure if my opinion is unpopular, or if I am offering a completely, 100% on-topic response. But this is stuff people need to hear. I don't bother with reddit much besides lurking for funnies.

I can answer part of this though:

Why is the State willing to foot the bill for maternity leave, but not for LPS?

Because the state gets to expand it's power, and levy more taxation, when they have social discord and maintain the usurped male gender role of provide and protect/social safety net. They get to increase their power, and funding for programs that don't actually solve the problem because then they can't expand their power anymore. They'd be putting themselves at a lower perceived necessity, and "out of a job", were the goal to be truly accomplished. Why do you think governments love welfare states and Feminism?

PBody97 · 2016-09-04T13:37:09+00:00

I don't think men should be allowed to force the woman to not have an abortion.

Karissa36 · 2016-09-04T07:43:11+00:00

What makes opposing LPS sexist, is maternity leave. See, The government and public are more than willing to put forward tax payer money to help women overcome the disadvantage their reproductive biology causes them.

Not in the United States. Men and women have equal rights to time off after the birth or adoption of a child under the FMLA. Note that only unpaid leave is guaranteed and is only required for certain employees.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_and_Medical_Leave_Act_of_1993

In the fairly rare instances where maternity leave is paid, it is treated no differently than when a male employee has a heart attack or other condition that temporarily prevents him from working. It goes under disability insurance, which requires medical proof of disability. Thus paid maternity leave is generally limited to six weeks.

You might have a better argument in other countries, but in the United States it is a complete myth that most maternity leave is paid. In fact, the majority of American working women do not have any legal right at all to maternity leave while still preserving their jobs, even if unpaid.

ThatZenoGoddess · 2016-09-04T13:13:03+00:00

Honestly, just about all of the 'major' things MRA's talk about are entirely logical and should happen...

DavidByron2 · 2016-09-04T08:53:10+00:00

[permanently deleted]

Klytemaestra · 2016-09-05T04:22:32+00:00

That male circumcision is just as bad as female circumcision. The undeniable fact is that FGM is far worse in terms of loss of sexual pleasure. I have to shake my head every time a fellow MRA claims they are equally detrimental. Clearly this is one topic where we are pushing a falsehood.

Code_Bordeauxx · 2016-09-04T19:29:55+00:00

Equality between the sexes, at least according to MRA consensus.

It appears that MRA's seek to accomplish what feminism says it tries to do. To pick things up where feminism lost its way, so to speak. Full equality all across the board.

I think that this, for a large part, is a pipe dream, ignoring important biological realities.

I'm all for equality in opportunity as a fundamental principle, but the government can't expect and shouldn't endorse equal outcome between the sexes. Gender roles are needed for the nuclear family, and thus society, to function. Individuals should be free to divert from this, but this isn't something to advocate for in national campaigns. If taken to the more extreme end, one could question the rationality of giving the majority of voting power (by number) to a gender more prone to strive for short term gains, to prefer consumption over investment and to base decisions on emotion rather than logic.

Also, due to the nature of human sexuality things thinks like sexual assault/rape do not bear the same consequences for men as they do for women (though I will be the first to admit that the consequences for men are not sufficiently recognised). On the other side of the coin are crimes like paternity fraud, which has no equivalent for women.

I could go on, but I'll wrap this up. I think the general idea is clear.

Regnes · 2016-09-05T08:33:45+00:00

I have an argument I'd like to counter, but I'll start off by saying I think a lot of MRAs, especially here, are every bit as bad as what we are portrayed as. There are people making issues out of non-issues, sourcing from tabloid newspapers like the Daily Mail, and just a whole lot of honest to god misogyny. All too often I see comments relentlessly and mindlessly bashing women for no good reason, even when it doesn't have anything to do with the topic. These are the kinds of people that ruin a group for everyone, they're just as bad as the feminazis and they sully the reputation of the good people who believe in treating everybody fairly and with respect.

Now what I really have some beef with is this hysteria over false rape accusers getting off scott free. Should people who falsely accuse somebody of rape go to prison? Absolutely they should. But here's the problem, we see a lot of the alleged false accusers walking free because they are being held to the same standards of justice that we pretend to hold so dearly.

A person accused of rape cannot be charged and convicted without being subjected to due process. I see it very often, there are so many damned feminists who are outraged every time a man accused of rape isn't charged/convicted. Also very often these cases are examples of victory for our side, the justice system prevailed. Then it's our turn to be outraged because the accuser isn't punished, we just expect them to be charged, because failure to provide evidence somehow equates to being a liar. It's as flawed a philosophy as "always believe rape victims".

Justice is a double edged sword, it serves everyone or it serves no one at all, it should not be partisan. I would just love us all to reflect that just as there are men falsely accused who did not get the justice they deserved, there are also women who were raped that didn't get their justice either. It's a complex issue.

splodgenessabounds · 2016-09-05T10:32:25+00:00

As far as disagreemnt goes, the only thing that really comes to mind is the persistent theme here (and elsewhere in MRA/ MGTOW/ RP circles) that Feminism/ SJWism is a thing of "Teh Left". It/ they may have been initially, and it/ they may be more obvious in certain publications (The Graun, HuffPo) nowadays. But it/ they are as much a feature of centre-right guvmints (hello the US, Britain, Oz) and their central tenets as prominent in multinational corps as anywhere else.

What those who spout the "Leftists - Boo! Hiss!!!" mantra forget is that Feminism is, above all, opportunism (if not parasitism) writ large - it doesn't give a monkey's uncle what its host's political, sociological, ecological or bacteriological leanings are so long as its host keeps on giving.

Not that I give a toss - if the majority of subbers here want to turn a blind eye to the real nature of Feminism, that's their funeral.

soalone34 · 2016-09-04T03:12:21+00:00

This isn't that common but,

MGTOW is almost identical the TheRedPill, and both are toxic dogmatic philosophies.

Demonspawn · 2016-09-04T04:28:26+00:00

MRAs, what common MRA point/argument do you disagree with, and why?

Egalitarianism, if it counts. Because egalitarianism is not MRA. Equal rights + social favor = no way to enforce equal responsibility. Equal rights + unequal responsibility = men as second class citizens.

Egalitarianism is anti-male, even if people don't want to recognize it.

LeaderOfGamergate · 2016-09-04T09:35:34+00:00

"Financial abortion"

I don't think the solution to feminists encouraging a complete lack of responsibility and accountability in women is for men to encourage a complete lack of responsibility and accountability in men.

Once a foetus is created, the MOTHER and the FATHER should both have a irrevocable responsibility to the child. The fact that women have used the "muh body" excuse to escape personal responsibility for their decisions should not mean men do the same. We are men, we are not feminists, we should take accountability of our children.

Being a men's rights activist does not mean being a bad father. A father is an honoured position, nobody should shy away from being a father.

For the record, I don't think women should have the right to an abortion unless it threatens her life.

WaitingToBeBanned · 2016-09-04T09:54:29+00:00

I disagree with the notion that false rape accusers should be punished as rapists, just because it would be a waste of resources.

civilsaint · 2016-09-04T12:33:58+00:00

I agree with you on abortion. A woman has to carry the child and should have the say. Also, I don't think women should pay more for health care.

However, I have changed my mind responsibility. In some states women have one year to decide whether to keep the child or put the child's up for adoption, but the man doesn't have that choice.

Saintmyname · 2016-09-04T04:04:54+00:00

I don't actually believe men should have a say in abortion unless they're married to the woman in question. If you get stuck with 18 years of child support I'm sorry but you did in fact bring a child into the world. If she aborts it I'm sorry but it's her life and you're just another dude she had.

notwhelmed · 2016-09-04T12:36:05+00:00

My biggest problem, on both sides, MRA/Feminism, is that it seems often to be played as a 0 sum game. A tit for tat, point scoring, and one side must always win.

It isnt like that. If i were grand poobah of mens rights (a job i dont want, and am not qualified for), I would step away from any claims about anything to do with women, where those women were not encroaching on mens rights. But even if they were, my phrasing and discussion, would not be on the women, but on the man, and how it is impacting him. Bring it back to basics. No cheap shots, no nastiness. I really do not care how long a woman goes to prison for compared to a man. I might care how long she goes to prison for, for a crime committed against a man. If a woman goes to prison for 1/3 of the time a man does, for same crime, is the man overpunished or the woman underpunished? Which is it?

I think if we want to make this movement viable. We have to play to our own actual issues, and not tie them to others. More men are homeless, focus on that. Men struggle to get custody of their children. As much as possible leave the woman out of this, and talk to the law and the damage done to the man and the children.

To often its point scoring in a war that cannot be won. So lets stop fighting the war and start fighting for things that might start making a difference.

DavidByron2 · 2016-09-04T18:04:34+00:00

Well for sure feminists will never be able to find a flaw in MRA arguments. They're all too gun shy.

DavidByron2 · 2016-09-04T18:12:05+00:00

I disagree with GWW's argument about how the reason humans favour females over males is that ancient cultures benefited more from female babies than male babies. The argument says that women are the limiting factor in rapid population expansion (because one man can 'do" a lot of women, but not vice versa) and therefore societies that learned to prize women over men would have thrived and out-evolved others.

But I think that rapid population growth is a pretty useless ability to have since almost all the time a society spends it's time at the limit of population. When you are at the limit of population you just don't need many women to hit your replacement population rate of 1 child surviving to adulthood per adult. Arguably if you are competing with other human groups you might be better off having more men than women most of the time, because that would allow for better physical security. Arguably then a society that favoured men over women would do better.

I'm not disagreeing THAT societies all favour women over men, just criticizing that evo-psych argument about how it might have come about.

VanishingZero · 2016-09-04T20:45:34+00:00

I don't know about disagree with, but certainly there are things I have reservations about or would like to see a more nuanced approach to.

For instance the wage gap. I see a lot of arguments that say it's down to women's preferences, so there's nothing to see here and we can all stop talking about it.

I'm more comfortable with that, than with the feminist distortions that make the gap all about discrimination and then call for unnecessary and unfair corrective measures (wage-gap taxes and so on).

But I don't think we should just shrug our shoulders and assume that we can extrapolate what should be from what is. It may be that if we changed the environment, women in aggregate would feel more comfortable making different decisions and would earn more. Or it may not.

The only people currently researching these topics are feminists. And their research is never unbiased. But that doesn't mean that unbiased research isn't possible or that the current situation is necessarily optimum for either men or women.

There are lots of other examples. I became an anti-feminist because I started checking their facts and reading their arguments and I was astounded at their lies and bile. But that doesn't mean I'm anti-women. Everyone should have equal opportunities.

jojoejoseph · 2016-09-06T05:18:47+00:00

You do know that maternity leave is not paid in the United States, right? It is taken as "family leave" which a father has the exact legal right to take as well.

Note: "family leave" is the abbreviated term. The actual legal act is "The Family and Medical Leave Act" signed by Bill Clinton.

And FMLA only applies to large companies and full time employees. Most women do not qualify. Of my wife and sisters who have had babies, none have ever received paid maternity leave.

Wanderer15 · 2016-09-04T04:11:50+00:00

I have been an MRA since 1990s, and even have spoken in several college discussions about Domestic Violence. I oppose discrimination against men in Divorce, Sentencing, Male Bashing.

But I am not a part of Anti-Semitic and Anti-Islamic view of circumcision. There are 1.7 Billion devout Muslims in the World. I am Jewish.

Tedesche · 2016-09-04T14:33:13+00:00

The view that there's little-to-no misogyny present within the MRM.

Sadly, I think the MRM suffers from the same form of sexist bias that feminism does, in that, in advocating exclusively for one gender under the banner of gender equality, rhetoric and beliefs that are either inherently or functionally anti-woman get expressed and fostered. As much as identity politics is criticized here, it is nonetheless alive and well within this community.

I myself am affected by it—I can regularly catch myself taking or wanting to take the man's side in a lot of articles about rape and domestic violence. Take the Tyler Kost case. I honestly don't know whether or not he's guilty of what he's being accused of, but I want him to proven innocent, and for his accusers to be proven malicious liars. I want this on an emotional level, not an intellectual one—intellectually, I want justice to be served, no matter who's guilty of what—but I have to admit I'll be disappointed if it turns out he's guilty.

That's a relatively mild example of what I'm talking about, but there are also plenty of generalized negative comments about women here—most made in the same sort of "joking," "ironic," "satirical" spirit as those misandrist comments you can find plenty of on feminist forums. Again, I see little difference between the MRM and feminism in this light.

I do think feminists go an extra step though and guise some of their misandry in official language and theory (e.g. patriarchy, toxic masculinity, etc). The only instance I can say I've seen of the MRM doing this is with the term "gynocentrism," which I find equally ridiculous. However, there are plenty of MRAs who assert that "we're living in a matriarchy" which isn't "official language and theory," but the spirit is nonetheless the same—it casts gender inequality as a zero-sum game in which men are the victims and women are the oppressors. And like patriarchy, it's bullshit.

I consider the MRM the enemy feminism deserves. It's the group that is balancing the scales, and it is just as biased and mean-spirited as feminism. That's to be expected, quite honestly, and I think people that view the MRM as somehow closer in spirit to gender egalitarianism than feminism are...well, biased.

Karissa36 · 2016-09-04T07:28:44+00:00

"Equal rights and equal lefts." Or in other words, this strange view that if a woman slaps a man, he should be able to punch her and knock her unconscious.

Don't get me wrong. I think all violence by either sex should be condemned. However, I also believe that all civilized people of either sex should retreat from a violent situation whenever possible before hitting back. If self defense is required, it must be proportional. It must be also actual self defense.

The most obvious example was the (very few) MRA's supporting Ray Rice knocking out his girlfriend because she pushed him in the elevator. No, that was just legally and morally wrong. That was not even remotely necessary for self defense.

Too often I am seeing this gratuitous wallowing in the idea of a man seriously hurting a woman in response to a minor assault. Even if it is only a few MRA's saying it, this is a very bad impression that colors the whole movement and plays into the belief that MRA's just hate women.

ThePigmanAgain · 2016-09-04T03:58:52+00:00

I can't believe how many idiots believe that men have always been the second sex. All the historical evidence that women used to be the ones getting the raw deal is completely ignored by their ilk. Seriously, it's like they are nothing but SJWs looking to maximize their feelings of self-righteous victimhood.

Honztastic · 2016-09-04T09:00:07+00:00

I disagree with the hardline stance on circumcision.

I'm pretty sure there a lot more serious issues that people already are open to discussion and how messed up they are.

Circumcision isn't just a fight against unfair laws that rational people agree need to be changed. It's a fight against perception over a deeply personal thing that provokes syrong defensive arguing.

It's wasting time, focus, and resources on a losing battle on fucking pr. Not even actually changing anything. It makes mras look super out there instead of reasonable.

eixan · 2016-09-04T05:33:19+00:00

Hate how mra take the time to point out that feminism is against stay at home moms. It's like out of all the fucked shit they do to men MRA's have to make a big deal about the one bad thing that feminism doesn't to women in an attempt to pander to women . I think in the bigger picture feminism is probably just as bad for women in terms of feeling valued by society and respected on your own merits by society. But that's about it.

rg57 · 2016-09-04T20:50:39+00:00

I think I agree with pretty much all of them: genital cutting, wages, biological origins, free speech, the draft, forced fatherhood, due process, marriage/alimony, education/medication of boys, just to name a few off the top of my head...

One thing I don't see MHRM calling for is an end to sex segregation everywhere. Sex segregation is rooted in misandry. Nobody cares that much when a woman invades a men-only space. If anything, it's cause for laughter or viewed as achievement. They only care if a man or transperson enters a woman-only space. We need to de-segregate everything: bathrooms, showers, locker rooms, teams, leagues, sports, awards (EGOT, etc), prisons. Men are not monsters. You can take a shit next to us, and it's OK. If you don't think the sexes should be housed together, or should shower together, then it doesn't make sense for single-sex populations to be forced to do this either. Improve safety, improve architecture, so all people are safe, regardless of sex.

One thing I disagree on is the expansion of child sex laws. Given the history of these laws being used as a hammer to beat boys and men with, rooted in misandry, I think we ought to be using the disparity in charges and sentencing, which exists because people see women as people, to reduce the charges and sentencing of men. The science on this is clear: (a) kids are harmed by harm, not by sex, and (b) the attraction to kids is an orientation. When this happens, we need to be looking for and punishing harm, not enforcing taboo rooted in misandry.

Last, a thing that I agree with in fact, but not in presentation, is the idea of "fatherlessness". It comes across as being anti-gay. We should instead focus on the idea that a priority should be that fathers maintain their relationship with their kids after divorce, and that it is a good thing for a kid to have two (or more) parents.

vtschoir · 2016-09-04T07:23:07+00:00

The whole legal parental surrender thing... it's too often addressed in terms of a tit for tat drawn from a false comparison. Apples to crescent wrenches, really. Ive yet to see an argument in LPS that even attempts to stand it up on its own merits. Instead, LPS is presented as if it's a solution to a perceived, and mostly fabricated sense of unfairness between genders. Frankly... "whoopdy damn do." I get it. Life isn't fair. But I also get something else, two left feet make a fucked up waltz. Tell me why refusing to be held personally responsible in any tangible way for a child resulting directly from your willing action is the RIGHT thing to do.

Realdorksword · 2016-09-04T06:57:38+00:00

I think the whole MGM thing is counter-productive. MRAs who believe in this are using false stats (a feminist tactic) to prove their are deaths from this when almost every single death is from African countries where the practice should be stopped. Here in the first world, circumcision is safe and has less chance of death and harm then going to the dentist.

They need to argue the only point that they have that is not based on lies. That they think it is abuse because of body autonomy. That is a fair argument but unfortunately it is one that is opinion and the opinions are split down the middle leaving the choice in the hand of the legal guardians, as it should be IMO. I am not saying that I am right and they are wrong. It is just an opinion.

I think if circumcision was done away with no one would be worse off for it but this battle puts us at odds with the Jewish people and as a group they have been told what to do for a very long time and treated horribly so forcing them to stop is nearly impossible. The Muslims could go fuck themselves as I am less than impressed with Islam right now to be honest.

I guess what I am saying in my rambling way is that I think the intact movement should be separate from the MRM as it is far too divisive and is an easy point of contention that makes our overall statement weaker and harder to win people over. Imagine if feminists became pro-life, they would lose many people as supporters and they would lose their vise-like grip on society. If we use the other arguments we have as MRAs that are almost impervious to rational debate we may make some changes for men's rights but if we keep including the fights that may be best left for after the more important battles have been one we may lose the war entirely, so to speak.

Title	MRAs, what common MRA point/argument do you disagree with, and why?
Author	azazelcrowley
Upvotes	49
Comments	296
Date	September 4, 2016 3:06 AM UTC (9 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/5128cj/mras_what_common_mra_pointargument_do_you/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/mras-what-common-mra-pointargument-do-you-disagree.942325 https://theredarchive.com/post/942325

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