Question about the man vs bear debate.

Willing-Chapter-7382 · 2024-04-23T14:35:52+00:00

We are assuming that it is a random bear plucked from the world or a random man plucked from the world and both of you are placed in a forest. What do you...

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You’re not being gaslit, we’re talking relevant points, and unless you fit the criteria then your anecdotes, while tragic, aren’t relevant to the statistics.

The hypothetical rape/attack/kidnap in the woods by a random stranger is the criteria. The point of my comment is that a massive majority of rapes DO NOT meet that, the hypothetical bear attack in the woods just has to be a bear in the woods. Statistically, you are FAR AND AWAY more likely to be attacked by the bear.

I think your fight and flight response would understand that in reality, given that I imagine you don’t back away slowly from every man in a Walmart, but would probably be smart to do so for a bear in the same Walmart. In the woods, your reaction to the man would be altered by his demeanor with a bear, it wouldn’t. But at the end of the day, 4 bears attack you and you’re not here to be the obstinate one in an argument.

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I mean what happened to you is awful.but it isn't an excuse to push sexist shit like the man vs bear argument,that said I am a guy and got r*ped four times too,twice by men twice by women,but I don't sit here and act like the would you rather vent to a woman or a tree argument is good either or act like the women I know are predators or even that women or men in general are,so no,what happened to you was and always will be awful and you will never be at fault for it,however the second you let those experiences turn you into a bitter sexist asshole towards men and take it out on men that never did you wrong,then you are in the wrong yes,but again it isn't because of what happened to you it's because sexist views on all sides towards anyone is fucked,don't know why this needs to be said so much honestly and I would say the same to any man that said sexist comments about your experience like you dressed like you were asking for it or some shit

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[–]Steakman1all men have piss bags (ex red pill man) 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago* (9 children) | Copy Link

Yes I am fully aware that humans are capable of doing horrible things to other people. However, this is a risk analysis to determine whether a man or bear is the better option. How many men would do something along the lines of what you cited? I don’t have the facts on hand, but my guess would be in a single digit percentage, if not a decimal. Meanwhile pretty much every single bear is capable of doing what I referenced.

Bears do not care about morals. No bear cares about how much of a slow, painful death they cause to their victims. All bears care about are: “you are a foreign creature I am not familiar with. You are doing something I consider a threat. I do not care if you are aware that you are doing something threatening. I will now attempt to kill you.” The exceptions to this are maybe pandas (I don’t know much about them), and black bears in some cases.

So I do not understand at all why you would respond to something the vast majority of bears would do to someone without hesitation, with something the vast majority of men would never even consider doing to someone, let alone actually going through with it.

What exactly is the game I’m playing? You seem to have a habit of shit testing almost everything I say as though there’s some hidden meaning in all of my responses.

[–]apresonlyFeminist Woman 🌹 karma is my boyfriend 🌹 -1 points0 points1 point 2 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

most bears don't care about humans and will run away unless they are hungry or feel threatened.

yes, in a fight bears are worse than men.

the question is not "who would you beat in a fight?" no women answering "bears" think they are winning a fight with a bear. none.

the question is, who would you rather stumble across while hiking? a bear or a man? again, most bears are going to run or wander off. most men are also not going to be harmful.

so its a preference of which one do you fear more?

and other factors come into play like if you are hurt by a bear, people will mourn you. if you are hurt by a man, people will ask what his side is.

What exactly is the game I’m playing?

you showed what one bear did as if all bears would do that every time you see them

but when i post what one group of men did, suddenly that's different

[–]Steakman1all men have piss bags (ex red pill man) 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link

will run away unless they are hungry or feel threatened.

A black bear’s first line of defense is to run away. Grizzlies and polar bears generally are aggression. Bears also become territorial during mating season. Do you or most people know when mating season is for bears? Maybe there’s an off chance you do or just end up Googling it. But most people probably don’t. Yet there’s people still stupid enough to choose a bear in this hypothetical. If anyone were to come into proximity with a bear, and their first instinct isn’t to slowly back away and get as far away from that bear as they can, then they are stupid.

The question is, who would you rather stumble accross while hiking?

And people are seriously answering a bear? I guess they better turn their car around as soon as they see another car parked in the parking lot of a hiking trail. These people are absolutely moronic. I don’t even care about going the whole “these women just hate men” route. It’s just such an ignorant opinion to choose a bear.

I thought the scenario was choosing to be placed into the forest with only a bear or man in close proximity to you. If what you said is the actual question, then that just makes the people answering a bear 10x more stupid. For the first time in a while, I’m actually a little triggered lmao. Not by what you said, but by people seriously answering a bear. It’s probably because I grew up camping and hiking frequently, and even had a few encounters with bears.

you showed what one bear did as if all bears would do that everytime you see them.

I showed what most bears are capable of doing to you if you do something they perceive as threatening, whether you are aware of it or not. You showed me something most men would never even consider doing to someone, let alone actually go through with it. There’s no “sudden difference.” I showed the results of a bear’s natural response. Gang raping and murdering children are not men’s natural response to anything.

This bear versus man debate is rediculous. Anyone who chooses to stumble across a bear over a man has clearly never interacted with, or been around one.

[–]apresonlyFeminist Woman 🌹 karma is my boyfriend 🌹 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

i feel like you're not understanding the question. even if i die, i would rather be killed by a bear than a man. a bear isn't going to rape me first. no one is going to ask what i was wearing if a bear kills me.

And people are seriously answering a bear?

yes

It’s just such an ignorant opinion to choose a bear.

why are you trying to police other people's answer to a hypothetical question? are you the thought police?

For the first time in a while, I’m actually a little triggered

by a hypothetical question?

probably because I grew up camping and hiking frequently, and even had a few encounters with bears.

okay... now imagine you have had a few encounters with predatory men.

There’s no “sudden difference.” I showed the results of a bear’s natural response. Gang raping and murdering children are not men’s natural response to anything.

you showed a wcs, i showed a wcs.

most of the time a hiker encounters a bear in the wilderness, it does not end with the person being attacked. just like most of the time interacting with a man does not result in an attack.

[–]Steakman1all men have piss bags (ex red pill man) 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

a bear isn’t going to rape me first.

And why do you assume a murderer would?

no one is going to ask what I was wearing if a bear kills me.

Is this a common thing? Never heard of this being a widespread issue. Funny thing is, more people would probably ask why you had nothing to defend yourself from a bear while being in the forest alone. Or why you didn’t get out as soon as you spotted the bear. I think no matter what, there will always be people who try to victim blame.

why are you trying to police other people’s answer

Are you the thought police

I could ask you the same thing. Since apparently me having a disagreeing opinion on other people’s opinion equates to me policing them. The only one trying to regulate anyone’s thoughts here is you by stating I shouldn’t disagree with other people’s decisions in a hypothetical scenario. Me stating someone’s thought process is moronic is not policing them.

By a hypothetical question?

Yes, brainrot is brainrot.

now imagine you have had a few predatory encounters with men.

I’ve had my house broken into in the middle of the night by men when I was a child. And I was home when it happened.

You showed a wcs

What is a wcs?

Most of the time a hiker encounters a bear in the wilderness, it does not end with the person being attacked.

Yes because most people are smart enough to keep their distance or leave the area when they see a bear.

just like most of the time interacting with a man doesn’t result in an attack.

And I bet you’ve interacted with way more men then you have bears. Yet for whatever reason you still want to take your chances with a bear, when how many men haven’t been predatory towards you compared to the ones that have? Is it because a man is alone with you in the woods, that his true, evil side will now come out because there’s a widespread issue of men secretly being murderous rapists?

[–]apresonlyFeminist Woman 🌹 karma is my boyfriend 🌹 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

And why do you assume a murderer would?

you think murderers care about consent?

Is this a common thing? Never heard of this being a widespread issue.

every single time i bring up that i have been raped in this sub men respond FIRST with a judgement about what i did to deserve it.

if they offer support at all, it is after they offer judgement.

if a bear attacks me, no one is going to pressure me to forgive the bear afterwards. I will not have to see the bears apology campaign. I will not have to see my friends and family be friends with the bear because the bear "has always been nice to me".

literally everything about being attacked by a bear sounds better than being attacked by a man.

Yes, brainrot is brainrot.

so did you say this to the man who was asking women this question?

or did you only care once women started answering his question?

What is a wcs?

worst case scenario

Yes because most people are smart enough to keep their distance or leave the area when they see a bear.

yes... and the bear isn't going to seek you out unlike if the man is predatory

And I bet you’ve interacted with way more men then you have bears.

yes and many of them have been rapists and have casually discussed unfathomably evil things and had a surprised pikachu face that anyone would not be cool with it (ex: a guy at a party literally described how he human trafficks women to me. i said "that's human trafficking" and he said "no its not" and was shocked that what he was doing was evil. he literally had never considered the morality of tricking women into being pimped out.)

i had way more positive feelings towards men growing up and in young adulthood because i did not engage with many men growing up. the more i am around men, the lower my opinion of them gets.

Yet for whatever reason you still want to take your chances with a bear, when how many men haven’t been predatory towards you compared to the ones that have?

the ones who haven't been predatory haven't had the same opportunities the ones who have been predatory have had.

i dont think the men i've date happen to magically be shitty men. I think they are normal men who did what most men would do in the same situation.

this tracks with when i have confronted some of them, they are shocked that them having sex with me with my explicit non-consent is rape. since they think of themselves as "a good guy", they dont think of themselves as rapists even while they are literally raping women.

Is it because a man is alone with you in the woods, that his true, evil side will now come out because there’s a widespread issue of men secretly being murderous rapists?

yes i think lots of men would rape given the opportunity of being isolated with a woman with no other humans around to hold him accountable

and yes i think there is a widespread issue of men being rapists.

[–]Steakman11 point 2 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

you think murderers care about consent?

Humans in general have some sense of morality unless they are psychopaths. For example, just because a person kills someone, it doesn’t mean they would also touch kids. In fact there are cases of child molesters getting beaten to death in prison by other prisoners.

in this sub, men respond FIRST with a judgment about what I did to deserve it.

I’ve never seen it happen. So all I have is your word. But assuming you are being honest, isn’t it pretty well established that men here aren’t different than men out in the real world? That’s what I see other women here claim at least. Are men you know in person and are close with responding the same way?

If a bear attacks me, nobody is going to pressure me to forgive the bear afterwards?

Who the hell is telling women to forgive the men that raped them? I’ve never seen this on the internet or off the internet. Are you sure this isn’t an isolated case or that you’re sharing this information with the wrong people?

so did you say this to the man who was asking women this question?

If you’re referring to the OP of this post, I’ve critiqued him already yes. I never saw the original post.

or did you only care once women started answering his question?

The whole reason I’ve been engaged with this topic is because I think the people answering a bear are being rediculous. I dont understand at all what is wrong with that or what win you get by pointing that out.

worst case scenario.

I pointed out what bears do to people when they attack people. They don’t hold back. That is what will happen to some part of your body if a bear attacks you and you can get out. Murderers do not all gang rape and/or torture their victims before killing them.

Yes… and the bear isn’t going to seek you out

There’s a high chance it will if it perceives you as a threat.

Yes and many of them have been rapists

I’m curious what percentage of men you think are rapists if you had to put a number on it.

the more I am around men, the lower my opinion of them gets.

Is this an admittance that you hate men? Or have you not gotten to that level yet?

The ones who haven’t been predatory haven’t had the same opportunities

So the reason most men aren’t predatory is because they don’t have the opportunity to?

Yes I think lots of men would rape if given the opportunity

And your basis for this is your personal experience? Does this validate all the men here who say women only want Chad because that’s what they’ve seen in their personal experience?

[–]Rugger_24681 point 2 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Not commenting on majority of this post, just here to lurk lol.

The one thing I do want to politely disagree with you on is the comment you made about murderers not raping or torturing their victims before killing them.

This is simply not true.

There are murderers like Ed Gein that did not torture or SA his victims. He was mostly a grave robber but murdered and mutilated at least two women. One of them was at work and he shot her in the back of the head when she turned his back on him. There were no signs of any sexual conduct before or after death for either victim. He did have a box of dried vulvas that he tried to preserve? Those were from women that died naturally that he grave robbed…. Don’t know if that makes it better?

However, you look at the toy box killer? It’s truly a horrific case and his whole thing was about torturing women sexually, mentally, and physically before he killed them. That is a case I don’t care to repeat here, but if you want to have some nightmares just listen to the tape he played for his victims.

Dahmer targeted men and children. There was lots of torture and SA with his victims.

Now I’m talking about some of the more known cases, but if you really get into true crime? There are a lot of cases where rape and torture are present.

Not all murderers are rapists, and not all rapists are murderers. But saying murderers don’t do that stuff is just not accurate.

Now that I’m thinking about it, one of the more famous serial killers (can’t remember who right now) didn’t like killing. Killing was a means to an end. What he wanted was to have intimate relationships with corpses. Prior to killing, he hired prostitutes and would ask them to lay still and not say a word or move during the session. As he escalated, he would drug them so that they wouldn’t move or make a sound. He escalated to killing because them breathing was too much noise. 🙃

Now, women aren’t innocent in this either. You listen to the toy box killer case, he recruited (I think) his daughter to help him get his victims! She would befriend them or make them feel safe knowing what her father would do to these women later. There are other cases where a woman is in on it with their partner.

Now most cases involving SA and the more sexual things postmortem are men. That’s not to say women killers are better or more ethical (there are a lot of f#%+ed up cases involving women). Just more cases in regards to SA and sexually driven are fewer when a woman is the killer vs a man.

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Damn this is a stupid point.

Bears are unlikely to attack you, but let’s imagine the worst case scenario for bear and the worst case scenario for man. Which is preferable?

I’m sorry but this is just a very childish perspective, which isn’t surprising since it’s coming from a child. No one is saying “all men” and that is the most idiotic cop-out stance I see from young boys. Not even most men are like that. However, the risk of being eaten is still very low and still preferable when considering worst possible outcomes.

Bears are unlikely to attack you. They usually just run away.

A lot of men think “it’s just sex, you’ll be fine” rapists are often actively trying to injure and embarrass you. The bear might eat you. The bear isn’t going to film you getting raped, no one will blame you if the bear actually did hurt you, you don’t risk getting pregnant with a child that would violently disgust you, the bear doesn’t get sexual pleasure out of harming you, the bear isn’t going to wipe himself off in your hair, the bear won’t give you a disease, the bear won’t say awful things to you that will stick with you for the rest of your life, the bear isn’t going to force large objects like bug spray cans up into your body which will rupture your organs and lead to your horrifically painful death, the bear won’t rape you to death (which I imagine you don’t even consider an option but, yes, men do that), the bear won’t hold you captive for months and rape and torture you past physical recognition until your body finally gives out (and then barely get punished for it).

Bears can kill you in a matter of seconds, and it’s incredibly unlikely they will attack you anyway. I would much rather risk that. I’d rather be killed so that another animal may survive and thrive than to be raped/killed so some worthless pig can get his dick wet.

[–]DeepFriedDarland 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The odds of a randomly selected man attacking you during a single encounter are also tiny. Think about how many times you come into close proximity with men in your day to day life. Do you genuinely believe that if women were to share small spaces with bears, walk past them on the street, etc, the world would be safer?

the bear won’t hold you captive for months and rape and torture you past physical recognition until your body finally gives out (and then barely get punished for it).

I've seen this point get thrown around. Ironic you get hung up by saying the bear is safer and use probability as your reason but then align the average man with Jeffery Dahmer.

Bears can kill you in a matter of seconds, and it’s incredibly unlikely they will attack you anyway.

I've seen many stories where bears have attacked people over the space of an hour. It's less likely an randomly selected man will attack you.

However, the risk of being eaten is still very low and still preferable when considering worst possible outcomes.

Using worst possible outcomes is illogical. By that logic, don't ever drink water because you could get some type of amoeba. No human should drive a car because worst case you die a slow death from a car crash. Let's not eat food while we're at it since worst case we catch a disease or parasite.

Bears are unlikely to attack you. They usually just run away.

Depends on the bear. Black bears would, but polars or grizzlies would stalk you for miles.

The bear isn’t going to film you getting raped, no one will blame you if the bear actually did hurt you, you don’t risk getting pregnant with a child that would violently disgust you, the bear doesn’t get sexual pleasure out of harming you, the bear isn’t going to wipe himself off in your hair, the bear won’t give you a disease, the bear won’t say awful things to you that will stick with you for the rest of your life, the bear isn’t going to force large objects like bug spray cans up into your body which will rupture your organs and lead to your horrifically painful death, the bear won’t rape you to death (which I imagine you don’t even consider an option but, yes, men do that), the bear won’t hold you captive for months and rape and torture you past physical recognition until your body finally gives out (and then barely get punished for it).

All of this is evidence as to why humans not just men are evil. I could list a bunch of horrible things women do and go online and say men should rather interact with bears than women because women are incredibly dangerous. The bear wouldn't drug me, sexually assault me, and then leave me robbed and naked in some hotel room. The bear wouldn't trap me in an abusive relationship by pretending to be the victim of domestic abuse. The bear, after a pleasant interaction, or no interaction at all, wouldn't then accuse me of rape for one I did not commit. The bear wouldn't sexually assault my child at school, like female teachers are doing a lot these days. I could keep going.

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humans in general, not just men,can be dangerous. “The 750,000 black bears of North America kill less than one person per year on the average, while humans ages 18-24 are 167 times more likely to kill someone than a black bear. Most attacks by black bears are defensive reactions to a person who is too close, which is an easy situation to avoid.”

“It is not normal behavior for a bear to come up to humans, especially in daylight. Typically, bears only do so because they seek food sources provided by humans. Very rarely, a bear may see a person as potential prey“

Stay calm and remember that most bears do not want to attack you; they usually just want to be left alone. Bears may bluff their way out of an encounter by charging and then turning away at the last second.

I would still pick a human over a bear, however

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People would choose the bear because they think bears will run away like racoons, just like you do lmao.

Because that's how wildlife usually works, dumbass. Most animals that are aggressive towards humans are only aggressive because of a specific circumstance (sick/injured, protecting young, hormonal) or because they have become habituated to humans. Even under these circumstances, running away usually works because a fight is costly.

None of the bears reacted aggressively to the observers. Although the location of the animals was known, bears were usually in quite concealed spots and were physically detected in only 16% of the approaches (seen in 42 approaches; heard in 6). However, the bears altered their daily movement patterns after the approaches. Bears increased movement at night-time and moved less at daytime, which was most visible in days 1 and 2 after the approaches, altering their foraging and resting routines.

The lack of aggressive reactions to approaching observers reinforces the idea that European brown bears generally avoid people, although bears can respond aggressively if they feel threatened (e.g. when wounded).

Making noise, running away, playing dead, and many other actions can be taken to avoid confrontation with a bear if you understand their behavior and what it signals. You clearly don't, so I understand why you are afraid of bears.

Hikers most frequently confront bears in surprise close-range encounters. If the hiker is perceived as a threat and the bear cannot flee (because there is no escape route or the person is too close), the bear may respond with fear-induced aggression. It rushes toward the person in a charge that may include clacking jaws, vocalization, and other display, and may come into physical contact with the person. Surprise and/or a charge was involved in at least 78 percent of the 23 injuries to hikers by grizzlies in Glacier National Park, Montana (Glacier National Park records).

Two types of charges can be distinguished: full charges, described by Egbert (1978, p. 41), and "hop-charges." A hopcharge is a rapid, stiff-legged, hopping movement, lasting for only a few paces. A hop-charge seems to be a bear's initial response to something that startles it; a full charge is considered a response to a perceived threat or, among bears aggregated at a feeding site, a dominance display.

Most bears from which people moved away were either not moving or moving toward the people. The most frequent subsequent behavior of the bears was to continue not moving or to move away.

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We have to assume that they are in close proximity after which point, if you are going to take a bear over a human being (sorry a man), you're detached from reality.

Most bears are not going to kill you if you take the right action based on the type of bear and circumstances. Most bear encounters that cause injuries do not cause death. Ironically, you are speaking from a place of fear and not reason that is informed by the evidence we have available about the animals.

If a generalization can be made about bear-human interactions, it is that, given a choice, most bears will avoid human beings [2,4,6,9,13]. Indeed, we humans are probably unaware of most bear encounters, because the bear has sensed us and left our area before we became aware of its presence.

A bear's reaction to a sudden encounter with human beings depends on the bear's species and sex [2,6]. Black bears of both sexes, including females with cubs, generally run away from humans as soon as the latter are detected. A typical black bear encounter in a forest is a brief moment of eye contact, surprise, fright, and flight. Some bears who are preoccupied with feeding may try to stand their ground or even displace the human intruders, but the prudent hiker will heed any warning signals and leave the area. Females with cubs often send their cubs to the safety of nearby trees, while they either run away or climb another tree. Despite common folklore, it is highly uncommon for a black-bear mother to attack intruders in order to defend her young. A human fatality from a mother black bear has never been reported [12].

In contrast, brown-bear mothers aggressively attack intruders and often make physical contact. Indeed, 70%- 80% of all brown-bear sudden encounters occur with females with cubs [6]. Most attacks are brief, lasting less than 2 min, and do not result in death [5]. Apparently, the bear's motivation is only to neutralize the intruder and then leave the area with her cubs. Generally, the victim is not treated as a food source, but rather as a perceived threat [2].

Unless physical contact is made, most brown-bear charges toward people are either bluff charges or attempts by the bear to more closely investigate the intruders (Fig 7). If physical contact is made, it is usually by a female protecting her young and her only intention is to neutralize the perceived threat.

In contrast to the procedure for aggressive black-bear attacks, the victim of a brown-bear assault should fall to the ground and "play dead." The bear may swat at or bite the victim, but the if victim can retain the presence of mind to lay still, it is likely that he or she will survive the attack.

Meanwhile, human men:

<image>

This is from the Attraction to Sexual Aggression Scale, which you can see used in plenty of research on different samples if you search it on Google Scholar, among other batteries meant to test for the same thing.

[–]DarkSector00111 point 2 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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Moving on past the bear idiocy, this just says that 5% of men surveyed say they would be likely to rape if there was guaranteed no consequence.

You don't know how a Likert scale works. 4 is Likely, 5 is Very Likely. 8% are likely or very likely to commit rape, 9% are likely or very likely to have forced sex. Only 56-62% of the sample said they are "Not at all likely" to have forced sex if they thought that no one would know and they could get away with it without punishment. Only 80-84% of the sample said they are "Not at all likely" to commit rape under those conditions. Only 83-85% of the sample said they would be "Not at all likely" to commit murder under those conditions. Conditions that are facilitated by, I don't know... being alone in a remote location in the woods with a stranger. Stranger assaults are often crimes of opportunity for this very reason.

Even on a sliding scale 84% say no to rape and I don't know what forced sex is in contrast to that, probably skull fucking or something but yeah.

Forced sex is rape, genius. Not face fucking. From part 1 of the previous source, same question about what men would do sexually if they thought they could get away with it:

https://preview.redd.it/z9soon5h4awc1.png?width=869&format=png&auto=webp&s=02b5f6b4405951b8a831069b8bab34002dbf2201

Only 41% of the sample (n=288) said they would be "not at all" likely to force a female to do something she didn't want to in that situation.

Again it's all just some narrative you and other women construct and try so so hard to reinforce to get special privileges meanwhile men have no fucking care about you as they run about daily life trying to provide for themselves and their families.

Again with the strawman whining.

But yeah, obviously a brown bear is a safer roommate.

And another strawman. The fact that you have to keep changing the terms (first it's an enclosed space, then it's your roommate) means that you understand clearly the difference here.

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Oh, so this bear thought experiment that's sweeping the nation is only to say that women are wary of a stranger in the woods at night, something literally everyone feels

No, it is to highlight the wariness women feel towards strange men. I have encountered many strangers while walking alone in the woods and have never felt any particular wariness towards the strange men and women I run into. Women, very specifically, often feel intense wariness towards strange men, especially when they're alone. It also exposed the stupidity of the common retort that "most men" never physically harm women, since most bears never physically harm humans, but if you spotted one while walking alone in the woods, you would attempt to remove yourself from the vicinity and endeavor to avoid such contact in the future.

[–]his_purple_majesty1 point 2 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

No, it is to highlight the wariness women feel towards strange men.

How does it do that any better than saying "women are wary of strange men in the woods?" What is the point of using a bear to illustrate this point?

It also exposed the stupidity of the common retort that "most men" never physically harm women, since most bears never physically harm humans, but if you spotted one while walking alone in the woods, you would attempt to remove yourself from the vicinity and endeavor to avoid such contact in the future.

Like this exposes the stupidity of your thinking process.

Most bears never physically harm people because they don't have the opportunity. Most bears would harm people if given the opportunity. Most men would not. That's the difference.

When I'm walking in the woods at night I'm already on edge and if I encounter a strange man I will get a little nervous. That's natural and I don't think anyone would blame women for feeling uneasy. The reason people shit on women for this kind of thing is they use it as yet another opportunity to circlejerk about how men as a whole are such violent cretins.

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and if you survey women if they've been raped you frequently you find out that it's 1 in 7 - and that's in a developed nation where I'd say that men are generally more respectful of women, which doesn't say much because the bar is in hell. And this isn't even counting the women who were raped but don't recognise that's what it is, because society taught them that it's just normal when men ignore a no, or when a husband ignores you after you told him that you don't want sex.

So what's going on there? Obviously the number of rapists has to be lower than the number of raped women simply due to the existence of serial rapists, and I suppose there would be a small minority of women that rape women that I don't think will matter much statistically since there aren't enough of them to make a dent, but are you suggesting that the average rapist rapes 14 women in his life? Cause that's what you'd need for the real number of rapists to actually be 1 in 100 at 1 in 7 female victims - not even counting men that get raped by men.

Mind that this survey data is consistent across western countries. Sometimes the numbers even come out higher than that. If 1 in 7 women got raped, how many men are rapists? 1 in 10? 1 in 15?

If it's 1 in 15, that's still around 9 million rapists in the US alone, which is sadly quite realistic. To me that's a lot. Maybe not to you, but I guess since you're on an incel forum arguing that rapists are super rare, you're well on your way to add to that statistic. Hating women and minimizing the harm that men do to them is for sure a good start.

[–]DarkSector0011 -2 points-1 points0 points 2 years ago* (9 children) | Copy Link

[–]RaileyxBlue Pill Woman -1 points0 points1 point 2 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

I'm sorry, where's the gotcha? This is real data. Do the numbers scare you? You could've looked the data up yourself, maybe then I wouldn't have to quote it at you.

But I get it, women lie and rape isn't real, or if it's real it's so rare that we surely don't have to pay attention to it. Survey's also aren't a legit way of learning things about large populations, let's ignore the fact that they're a super established method used by scientists all around the globe. Actually whenever a survey gives a result that I don't like, surveys are bad. But when my buddies on the incel forums quote some whacky shit about women being bad, I will believe it in a heartbeat.

Do you kinda think like that? You don't have to answer. I'm sure it's dificult and painful for you to look inward.

I'm not making men into evil demons. You are. You realize that every time you talk shit like that and a woman sees it, they go "huh, I guess men ARE horrible evil demons (lul)" - that's you. It's literally you. Keep being an incel and see how happy that makes you in life bro.

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Surveys are not actual science. You saying that that is established and believed in as critical data is definitely not the case. Surveys are used to substantiate some hypothesis but they aren't science.

Survey's have been a method of collecting data since the conception of science pretty much, and are still going strong today. Because guess what: They're a really good way to collect data on stuff that is otherwise difficult to measure.

If you've EVER read a journal, you'd know that surveys are super commonly used. Most of psychology relies on them. A lot of medicine relies on them. They're used literally everywhere. You're so wrong it's hilarious, like way to go, way to out yourself as someone with absolutely zero scientific literacy. "Surveys aren't actual science" is an absolute new low for ignorance on this site, real stupidity hall of fame contender right there.

Actually stop yapping and read a book. This is so embarrassing.

I will never respond as you wish me to which is to cave in to fear and shame

the fact that you're not ashamed of yourself is why you are the way you are. If you had any shame, there'd still be some hope left. But like this? Fat fucking chance. Zero awareness, no way out. Good luck in life, you'll need it.

Your own behavior here is definitely not that of a saint

I'm not gonna be a saint to some illiterate misogynistic rape-minimizing dipshit on reddit. If you want to be treated like a proper person, try acting like one.

1/6 women is almost a meme at this point because it's such a falsified concept of what rape is, it's not even worth considering.

If the women in your life actually trusted you, you'd find out that the number is more than real. Rape is extremely common. I know this is an uncomfortable truth for incel dipshits like you, because you somehow built this reality in your head where men can do no wrong and women are just terrible people and liars, cause that way you can externalise the blame for your sad fucking waste of a life, but i don't care about your childish fantasies. This is real life. Women get hurt in reality. That's how it is. No amount of coping can erase that fact, and I don't care how many of you losers cry about the numbers being fake and surveys not being real science (lol).

The life you'll lead will speak for itself.

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Why not just say you hate men?

The idea that women get “blamed” for anything is hysterical. Women get nothing but unbridled empathy and infantilism from society when something negative happens to them or they do something negative. Also, you’d be dead. You wouldn’t care.

You’d actually get far more empathy being killed by a man than a bear. Because people have far more empathy for bears than they do men. Everyone would say you were an idiot for entering the bear’s territory, and the bear wasn’t at fault, it was just doing what was natural to it. These kinds of comments are ubiquitous on animal attack videos online.

While videos about men killing women elicit mostly empathy for the woman and hate for the man.

In addition, being ripped apart and eaten alive by a bear would likely be horrific. Much worse than being killed by a man.

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[–]SolondthewookieeBlue Pill Man 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

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Well that's a lie, women continue to be attacked, harassed, raped, assaulted, murdered, etc.

Yup, just pretty much all of those things, except sexual crimes, to a far lesser degree than men. I assumed it was understood that safety is always relative, not absolute. And I was not talking about physical safety in the first place, more safety from social attacks and exclusion, a.k.a. the typically female form of aggression

Certainly not financial, women continue to be paid less for the same work, but how many victimhood points does it take to get a degree?

I'm not getting into a wage gap discussion. Suffice it to say I'm not convinced.

And "be discriminated against" is so vague...yes, I assume that's true to some degree, the interesting question is if it's better or worse for men, both in quantity and quality. But for that discussion we already have a problem with definitions, because (as may not surprise you) I am also not a fan of changing them to just define away the exact same behavior for different groups, see privilege + power / "reverse" racism and sexism.

I feel you are also missing a general point, the same person can generally gain, rather than lose, from declaring victimhood status, e.g. by discovering they are 1/16th native American, or queer. It's not about absolute position.

[–]SolondthewookieeBlue Pill Man 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

Yup, just pretty much all of those things, except sexual crimes, to a far lesser degree than men

I wasn't aware women could only complain about being victimized by men if it happens at a higher rate than men being victimized by men.

And I was not talking about physical safety in the first place, more safety from social attacks and exclusion

Please elaborate on these "social attacks" that you were totally talking about.

I'm not getting into a wage gap discussion. Suffice it to say I'm not convinced

Of course you aren't, it doesn't fit with your narrative.

And "be discriminated against" is so vague

No, it's pretty concrete. Women are excluded from male dominated industries (which, by a staggering coincidence, tend to be higher paying) and are not promoted at the same rate as men or to positions as high, and the women who do break into those fields are assumed to have gotten the positions because of diversity and "quotas." You know, exactly what you did.

I feel you are also missing a general point, the same person can generally gain, rather than lose

Gain or lose what?

[–]Ferengsten 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

Man, you do your moniker justice. Each of these is a long and complicated discussion. But I do want to respond at least a bit.

If being victimized to a higher degree than men is not the point, what is the point then? Crime happens at all? You would think that a "patriarchy" that treats its privileged members worse than its enemies does a pretty bad job. I'm pretty sure that during slavery or separate but equal, people of color actually had the significantly worse deal.
Bullying, doxing, trying to get people separated from their partner and/or fired, even suing someone? There are a lot more subtle ways to attempt to harm someone than physically, and since physical attacks are at this point largely eliminated, especially for upper classes, those have become increasingly more attractive.
And also I've looked into it and thought about it extensively, but hey, why not just assume I am an ignorant bigot.
Yeah. Every industry was male dominated until a hundred years ago. Then for some super strange reason that just happens to coincide with the preferences found already in small children and monkeys, some became female dominated, and some remained largely male dominated. And yes, by staggering coincidence men care more about earning more money. For the same staggering coincidence beauty products (and everything, actually) are still mostly sold to women. But I'm sure it's the other way around, a big conspiracy makes people willing to pay more for a new iphone than to witness feminist dancing, and men become programmers, engineers, and garbage men and literally die for their job because it's inherently so damn fun, even if it's not useful at all.
Gain both concrete advantages via quotas and more subtle advantages via social relations. Why do you think everyone discovered how especially pure and Aryan their blood line was in the third reich?

[–]Solondthewookiee1 point 2 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

If being victimized to a higher degree than men is not the point

I said women are allowed to complain about being victimized by men even if men are victimized by men at a higher rate.

You would think that a "patriarchy" that treats its privileged members worse than its enemies does a pretty bad job.

No, you just don't have a clue what the patriarchy is. Well, no, I'm sure it's been explained to you, but you chose to create a caricature of what it is because that's easier to attack than to address women's concerns (this is better known as a strawman argument).

Bullying, doxing, trying to get people separated from their partner and/or fired, even suing someone

Like, for example, Zoe Quinn, Anita Sarkeesian, Brianna Wu? That kind of thing?

And also I've looked into it and thought about it extensively, but hey, why not just assume I am an ignorant bigot.

There's not really much to discuss. Even if you pretend that women magically hate money and choose completely free of outisde influence not to pursue high paying careers, they are still paid less than men even when controlling for hours worked, experience, education, job title, etc.

Every industry was male dominated until a hundred years ago. Then for some super strange reason that just happens to coincide with the preferences found already in small children and monkeys, some became female dominated, and some remained largely male dominated

Like computer coding, right?

Gain both concrete advantages via quotas and more subtle advantages via social relations. Why do you think everyone discovered how especially pure and Aryan their blood line was in the third reich?

Sorry, did you just compare women complaining about social issues to the Nazis?

[–]Ferengsten1 point 2 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

No, you just don't have a clue what the patriarchy is.

See this is why I don't like changing definitions. My definition if patriarchy is the strict one, that the positions of highest power and status are filled by men. Which has always been true with a high degree of accuracy, but is IMO mostly due to the variance, not average, being higher for men in many aspects of life, including social status and reproductive success. Almost everyone talking about it nowadays takes it to mean that the average man has it better than the average woman, so I assumed you do as well. But if you want to, please tell me the cleverness I choose to ignore.

Then you again do the "three examples prove a statistical trend in billions"-thing...do I need to comment? I mean not even that, I'm honestly not sure what you're trying to tell me here...women can become the target of a female form of aggression as well? No shit, both sexes primarily compete and thus target within their group, and obviously women can hit and men can talk behind someone's back. What is the point here?

Earning money usually requires more than not hating it, again, shocking I am sure. The coding thing I am aware of, but never looked into it more, I guess I will have to; but in modern times it fits so extremely well...very human-related sciences are female, something in between like law and medicine is about 50/50, anything mechanical is male. Do you actually think that's a giant coincidence? Who would even profit from arbitrarily constructing it this way? Is the assumption here that mechanical engineering and programming just happened to become profitable, and then men rushed in and bullied women out of the field (but not say, medicine, law and economics). Or that men do prefer the field and then just magically convinced everyone to buy more Iphones, especially women, who actually control the market to a large degree due to their significantly higher share of consumer purchasing decisions, which also tends to just get ignored.

[–]Solondthewookiee1 point 2 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

See this is why I don't like changing definitions

The definition has been pretty consistent, and at no point has the patriarchy ever meant "men suffer no harm from other men."

Then you again do the "three examples prove a statistical trend in billions"-thing

Please, give me your examples.

of a female form of aggression as well

lol what

Since when have bullying, doxxing, death threats, and lawsuits been a "female form of aggression?"

but never looked into it more

Oh it's pretty basic. Coding was originally seen as tedious clerical work, so it was delegated to women. When it started to become a lucrative career path, suddenly women weren't suited to it any longer ("women are more emotional, men are more logical" type bullshit).

very human-related sciences are female, something in between like law and medicine is about 50/50, anything mechanical is male. Do you actually think that's a giant coincidence?

You literally just demonstrated how it happens.

to buy more Iphones

You keep bringing up buying iPhones like it somehow explains why women are paid less for the same work.

also, men still insist on doing anything that's physically taxing, dirty, and actually dangerous for your health?

Because you never bothered to find out or else actively ignore what it is like for women who enter blue collar fields.

[–]Ferengsten2 points 2 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You literally just demonstrated how it happens.

OK, so to be clear: All the differences, even the more subtle ones, like, say, between biology, chemistry, and physics, to you are all neatly organized by average income and then just happened to also coincide with the people vs things - theme? Or was specifically coding the starting point for the "myth" that there are differences in interest, and everything else was enforced by the patriarchy just to get men into coding? But still garbage collectors are men and therapists are women, because...the patriarchy slept that day? Garbage collectors are still in a privileged position that they actively uphold by keeping out women? Being an outlier is generally hard and makes you an easier target, but that does not explain how the statistical trend that makes you an outlier originated in the first place.

[–]Solondthewookiee1 point 2 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Ferengsten2 points 2 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

It's funny you state that like it's fact and automatically disproves anything I say.

First off, no, that's not the same with extra steps, we generally don't feel that an engineer is so much more logical than a doctor or lawyer that we should take him much more seriously. If anything, it's the opposite. (once again weirdly does not seem to fit the patriarchy model, ey?)

Second, the last time I had the "women are more emotional"-discussion, it was with a woman who was more strongly on the "yes"-side than I was. This is also an interesting topic in itself, but in short, I lean towards "yes", but with a few caveats and low certainty. Women score higher on e.g. the OCEAN questionnaire in all five categories, but there we have the usual problem of not being able to tell if women actually are more emotional or just say they are, because men seem to have a pretty clear incentive to downplay their emotions and be more guarded. There are AFAIK accounts of people taking sex hormones describing their experience, which in my recollection roughly boils down to male hormones making you more horny, and female hormones making you more volatile. But those are anecdotes. Then there are some objective facts like the female hormonal cycle, though, again in my limited knowledge, men do have some fluctuations as well, but AFAIK not to the same degree. Lastly, men are clearly more violent, so we can probably add rage to horniness in the category of male emotional volatility. Still, in total I would say women and men experience emotions not fundamentally but a bit differently; The real question is: What do we achieve by discussing this rather than specific actions and arguments, independent of underlying motivation, other than prejudice?

[–]Solondthewookiee1 point 2 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

engineer is so much more logical than a doctor or lawyer that we should take him much more seriously. If anything, it's the opposite.

Doctors and lawyers deal with people, engineers much, much less so. Also it's great you keep harping on doctors and then ignore that most women end up in pediatrics (women are nurturers) or gynecology (women have vaginas). Crazy how even in a hard, logical science (per you), women mysteriously end up in traditionally female roles.

econd, the last time I had the "women are more emotional"-discussion, it was with a woman who was more strongly on the "yes"-side than I was.

Cool, I'm a man and I say you're wrong.

Women score higher on e.g. the OCEAN questionnaire in all five categories, but there we have the usual problem of not being able to tell if women actually are more emotional or just say they are, because men seem to have a pretty clear incentive to downplay their emotions and be more guarded.

And yet these vary across cultures. So either you're now claiming that emotional vs. logical is also tied to race, or the environment in which you're raised has a big impact on you.

What do we achieve by discussing this rather than specific actions and arguments, independent of underlying motivation, other than prejudice?

Because specific actions are easily dismissed as outliers. Population level statistics are much harder to hand wave away.

[–]Ferengsten2 points 2 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Also it's great you keep harping on doctors and then ignore that most women end up in pediatrics (women are nurturers) or gynecology (women have vaginas).

I did mention radiology vs pediatrics, so I don't think I'm "ignoring" it. Both medicine and law for me are not the "hard, logical" sciences, but something in between, dealing with people and emotions more than engineers but less than psychologists. Accordingly, very mixed gender statistics. And you once again keep using irony so much I have no idea what you actually want to say. Women are forced into pediatrics and gynecology by cliches? Or is it a pay grade thing? And again, since you did not answer the question, how did that cliche arise? If it was before the abundance of female programmers, was programming then first seen as very emotional/child/vagina-related?

And yet these vary across cultures. So either you're now claiming that emotional vs. logical is also tied to race, or the environment in which you're raised has a big impact on you.

I mostly said that I do not see this as very reliable. And again, "a big impact". In general. Yes, "a big impact" is most definitely true, but so is saying that your genes have "a big impact", in general and overall. That seems purely rhetorical.

Because specific actions are easily dismissed as outliers. Population level statistics are much harder to hand wave away.

It's kind of funny that I argue against prejudices, and you for them. Are you going to go 13/52 next? I do not feel I "hand waved" away anything, but often the real problem lies in the interpretation of a statistic, not in the veracity of the numbers themselves. Again, what's your actual point here? Women actually are more emotional (you do not want to "hand wave away" statics) but that's their upbringing forcing them into it? This to me again immediately begs the question: Who had the incentive and power in the first place to invent this stereotype cross-culturally (apparently, honestly not familiar with cross-cultural OCEAN results).

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I see two answers, conditions crucial;

If you mean that I would face a random bear or a random guy, and they are out to kill me, then I'd probably pick the guy since I could (most likely) fight him off, based on averages.

There is not a single person on this earth who will even get close to an even fight with a bear (not counting tools like a gun/spears etc.), except maaaaybe a black bear/sloth bear or similar smaller variant. Eurasian brown bear/grizzly and you're fucked.

If you mean that I would face a random guy or bear, and they are just dropped there, no other conditions, I'd pick the bear. A random person being teleported into a forest with me will probably act irrational, maybe blame me for the transportation, and try to kill me or whatever. A bear will probably think it is tripping balls and start running a random direction, no confrontation needed.

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No, I will not try to fuck the bear. Ok, now I'll actually read your post.

Odds that the bear will kill me? Less than 1%. Odds that the man will rape me? 5% Odds that the man will kill me? Less than 2%.

For me, it's not a question of the odds (although I think they're better with the bear). It's a question of what I can control most easily. When it comes to bears, they're more easily avoided, more easily evaded, you can play dead, they don't generally attack unless something triggers their defensive tendencies, and they will not rape me. The same cannot be said for a man. The same cannot be said for a man who likely couldn't be avoided, would be more difficult to evade, will not accept playing dead, and may attack for aggressive reasons, and can rape me.

Again, in either case it's hugely unlikely I'm unsafe. But if I'm going to be unsafe, I'd rather the bear.

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Pretty much what the woman beneath me has suggested and my own personal estimate and my understanding that most men wouldn't "rape" someone if the word rape was applied to it because they know that is bad. But would about 1/20 men meet the literal definition of rape if another word or sentiment was placed on it? Words like persuasion or ambiguity? Yes. I think that's about an accurate estimate and the stats seem to suggest that is accurate.

If the question was: do I think most men think of themselves as rapists, I would say less than 1%. But if we're asking do I think most men would perform actions which are rape, but not call it that in their heads or have excuses why it isn't...I think about 5% is much more close to the truth.

I think what everyone has to get a little used to (and it is scary) is that the human heart holds greater darkness it does not freely admit to than most of us want to believe.

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Not necessarily. There's nothing strong to indicate mere human presence is agitating.

He might. Then again, the bear may do the same. And if wandering off is an option, I can wander off from the bear, right.

It's the difference between a chaos element and something more stagnant. Men are chaotic. Bears aren't. Within those two options, the less chaotic creature is easier to deal with and predict. Bears aren't controlling an urge, it's just not there typically.

Again, most men don't call what they're doing rape in their brains. It is rape, but most people aren't evil. In order to do evil things they call it by other names or make a laundry list of excuses. I don't think most men think "I'm gonna rape her". But a rose by any other name. And society isn't very good at dealing with rapists, so I would not count on them for justice. I'd have to count on men in my life, and I'm not interested in them facing prison sentences when I could just spend a night acting non-threateningly with a bear.

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Yes. And interestingly, the odds also increase the bear will do something funny because other people aren't around. When it comes to both bears and men, being in a group represents safety.

Most people aren't as good as they say because of values or virtues. Most people are as good as they say because they don't want to face consequences or retribution. And because they fear others stopping them.

My answer would change drastically if the next day magically the man and the bear are poofed before an armed guard, a magistrate, and my boyfriend alongside me to watch a video of the day's goings on. All of a sudden, I'd take the man, right? Because the bear doesn't care about consequences or society, so the bear's behavior will not change. The man, however, is likely to be drastically better if he knows at the end of this he may face a firing squad.

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[–]januaryphilosopherWoman/20s/Irish/UK/Maths teacher/radfem/healthy BMI/bi/married 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

[–]Konoha_ShinobeeOne Pill to Rule them all ♂️ 5 points6 points7 points 2 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

[–]apresonlyFeminist Woman 🌹 karma is my boyfriend 🌹 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]Konoha_ShinobeeOne Pill to Rule them all ♂️ 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Loose_Complaint77No Pill Man 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]apresonlyFeminist Woman 🌹 karma is my boyfriend 🌹 -1 points0 points1 point 2 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Loose_Complaint77No Pill Man 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]apresonlyFeminist Woman 🌹 karma is my boyfriend 🌹 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Willing-Chapter-7382Based No Pill Man[S] 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]Konoha_ShinobeeOne Pill to Rule them all ♂️ 4 points5 points6 points 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Willing-Chapter-7382Based No Pill Man[S] 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]justforlulz12345Jester Pill / Misanthropilled (would be uberchad if not indian) 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]januaryphilosopherWoman/20s/Irish/UK/Maths teacher/radfem/healthy BMI/bi/married -1 points0 points1 point 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]MattPayneWrestler 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Willing-Chapter-7382Based No Pill Man[S] 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]captaindestucto2 points 2 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]Medical_Sense5953Purple Pill Woman 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Willing-Chapter-7382Based No Pill Man[S] 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Medical_Sense5953Purple Pill Woman 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]shadowrangerfsPurple Pill Man 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Willing-Chapter-7382Based No Pill Man[S] 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Cethlinnstooth 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]apresonlyFeminist Woman 🌹 karma is my boyfriend 🌹 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]Cethlinnstooth 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]apresonlyFeminist Woman 🌹 karma is my boyfriend 🌹 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Cethlinnstooth -1 points0 points1 point 2 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

So your answer to the bear question is probably different to mine...right? And that's ok. We live different lives. Neither of us are wrong when we answer the bear question.

The people who are wrong are the guys who are throwing a shit fit about that original tiktok because there's women whose immediate response based upon the way they live their lives is oh fuck no if I'm alone in the woods with a man there is no way that is voluntary and a hopeful situation I am still in control of...but maybe I'm still doing ok in the bear situation because I don't go into bear territory without preparation.

The men assumed it is a general question ABOUT MEN. But it's a question about SITUATIONS and a question about the person being asked ending up in those situations too.

Just men assuming everything is about men and how men feel... and women are not living deliberately and if they are in the forest are there just wandering round the forest with Disney birdies twittering around their heads and not a plan in place for anything.

[–]TokimonatakanimekatBear-man 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Ap0c4L1PS1S08 2 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Willing-Chapter-7382Based No Pill Man[S] 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Willing-Chapter-7382Based No Pill Man[S] 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Same_Comfortable_821Pink Pill Woman 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]Willing-Chapter-7382Based No Pill Man[S] 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Same_Comfortable_821Pink Pill Woman 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Willing-Chapter-7382Based No Pill Man[S] 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]The_Mid_Life_Man 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Willing-Chapter-7382Based No Pill Man[S] 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]VirusAutomatic28291 point 2 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]Lumpy_Sound70021 point 2 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]wtknightBlue-ish Gen X Slacker - Man -1 points0 points1 point 2 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]Willing-Chapter-7382Based No Pill Man[S] 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]wtknightBlue-ish Gen X Slacker - Man 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Willing-Chapter-7382Based No Pill Man[S] 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]OneNineSevenNine -1 points0 points1 point 2 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]Willing-Chapter-7382Based No Pill Man[S] -1 points0 points1 point 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]pinkScott_bluepill slayer -1 points0 points1 point 2 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]OneNineSevenNine 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]pinkScott_bluepill slayer -1 points0 points1 point 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]CPU_2256schizopill man -2 points-1 points0 points 2 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]apresonlyFeminist Woman 🌹 karma is my boyfriend 🌹 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]CPU_2256schizopill man 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]apresonlyFeminist Woman 🌹 karma is my boyfriend 🌹 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Title	Question about the man vs bear debate.
Author	Willing-Chapter-7382
Upvotes	12
Comments	447
Date	April 23, 2024 2:35 PM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1cb68gg/question_about_the_man_vs_bear_debate/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/question-about-the-man-vs-bear-debate.1516130 https://theredarchive.com/post/1516130

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