...and all of the sudden, no one cares about “equal pay” anymore...

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Exactly.

Tennis has had a big push for equal pay since Billie Jean King lead the way in the 70's. I think the Grand Slams started giving equal prize money in the 2000's.

As an avid fan, it was interesting that the debate started again after this year's Wimbledon. You couldn't have had a more different women's final vs men's final.

Simona Halep just played out of her mind against Serena. Nothing Serena could do. Match over in 55 minutes.

Exact opposite, Djokovic and Federer played one of the greatest matches in the history of Wimbledon. They played the first ever 5th set tiebreak. Almost 5 hours.

ESPN and other analysts actually discussed women playing best of 5 this year. The Women's match was so quick, it was obvious they had more in the tank and it's a shame fans who paid big bucks for a Wimbledon Championship got such a quick match.

It's like in the 70's women fought for equal pay.

Now in 2019 people are fighting for equal work.

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Oh no, I understood that you're combining multiple people's different political views to make a straw man weak enough to argue against.

All I'm saying is, if you want a team made up of the best women, you'll have to pay what they ask. If you personally don't understand why there's a women's team, then make that point.

It's just cute that you argued against a meritocracy while also saying you wanted merit based sports. No you don't, you want everyone to be in one league. And the only reason you want that is because you think women play at such a low level that they wouldn't stand up against even entry level professional men's players.

Sadly, when it comes to national teams the best of the best would prefer to not waste their time and health when they can focus on the next season. So the women would probably do a lot better than you think they would seeing how women's professional leagues are even more underfunded than their national teams.

I'm all for hearing the same argument three times, but maybe you can think up something a little more clever next time around. Thanks for being brave enough to share your opinions, I wish more people were like you.

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Women don’t stand up to entry level male players, in fact the very woman’s team we are talking about lost to a bunch of male CHILDREN under 15 years old in a score of 5-2. They are so far under skill level of the men’s team it’s not even funny. Therefore the game they are playing is at completely different levels, and this alone more than justifies ANY salary discrepancies.

You stating that you don’t like my argument isn’t actually refuting my argument. You also contradicted yourself by saying that wanting a combined league isn’t meritocratic, when in fact it is the very definition of the word. Let the BEST players on ONE team and pay them accordingly.

Maybe someday you’ll actually be able to refute my argument and explain to all of us here how you can simultaneously argue that women should have their own protected leagues where men aren’t allowed to play yet pretend that you are for a meritocracy. Something tells me you don’t understand what the word merit means, hint it doesn’t have to do with genitals.

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It's not about being paid well just for winning.

In 1966, the (men's) World Cup winners, England, were given a bonus of just £1,000 each (the equivalent of £13,000 today). Why so little? The answer is simple if you understand basic economics: supply and demand. According to the Bank of England:

Players are being paid increasingly high wages because the clubs are making more money than ever. As a result of globalisation and technological advances such as the pay TV market, football has become more popular and so more profitable. The rights for the first seasons of the Premier League in 1992-97 sold for less than £200 million. The TV rights for 2016-19 are in comparison worth more than £5 billion.

If people lost interest in football, clubs would not be able to make such high profits. The demand for players would drop and so would their wages.

Yes, they're talking about club football, but the principle is the same. People wanting "equal pay" are missing the obvious fact that the public are not as passionate about women's football.

Ticket prices are a good indicator of supply and demand. In 2018 England fans were reportedly paying up to £12,000 for a black market ticket to their semifinal against Croatia. https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/715588/England-world-cup-semi-final-tickets-cost-croatia

But in 2019 you could watch THREE women's world cup matches from just €25, and get a semifinal AND final package from only €50.

The women's world cup players want to be rewarded for the popularity of the men's game.

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United States at the FIFA World Cup

The United States men's national soccer team has played in several World Cup finals, with their best result occurring during their first appearance at the 1930 World Cup, when the United States finished in third place. After the 1950 World Cup, in which the United States upset England in group play 1–0, the U.S. was absent from the finals until 1990. The United States has participated in every World Cup since 1990 until 2014, but they failed to qualify for the 2018 competition after a loss to Trinidad and Tobago in 2017.

The World Cup is an international football competition contested by the men's national teams of the members of Fédération Internationale de Football Association (FIFA), the sport's global governing body.

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If they aren’t as good as the men directly by your admission, what business do they have comparing salaries? Either they are better than the men directly, or their claim of equal pay is nonsense. They aren’t doing the same work and no other job works that way. It’s like a high school all American quarterback bitching that he doesn’t make the same amount that the top NFL player does.

When you’re playing in a different league your comparison is meaningless. If they did equal work, which would be competing in the SAME league and getting the same results then the discussion of equal pay has relevance. There is no other point anywhere near as valid as this one. Woman’s soccer is not equal to men’s, therefore the comparisons are irrelevant.

If they want the higher pay I suggest being good enough to play in the men’s league. If they aren’t, I guess that’s just an unfortunate reality. Similar to the fact that my 5’10” ass can’t play in the NBA.

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Soccer is not a popular sport in the US.

Would ANYONE be watching the US women's team if they hadn't won half (4) of the Women's World Cups (8) to date, including the most recent 2 in a row? And they came in 2nd or 3rd in the other 4 tournaments? They have literally never NOT been on the podium of the international competition.

You ever wonder if the popularity they're enjoying now is more due to national pride on an international stage than a deep and abiding passion for women's soccer? That "FIFA women's world cup mania" is what's selling tickets to US women's soccer league "friendly" games?

Keeping in mind, the men's team are international losers. Out of 21 total World Cups, the best they've done is place 3rd ONCE, in 1930, and haven't made the podium since.

And yet up until 4 years ago, they still brought in as much or more "friendly" revenue than the 4-time international champion women's team who have never not made it to the podium.

I'm sorry, but what happens if and when the women's team fails to win, place or show?

If it's national pride for the US international champions that's what is currently fuelling the popularity of women's soccer in the US, do you really think the crowds are going to continue to buy as many tickets, fork over as much cash for PPV, etc, if and when the US national women's team stops winning?

Especially given they won 1991 and 1999, and that didn't catch them up to the men's team.

If I were the league, I'd be very leery of signing any contract that didn't allow for the possibility that this jump in revenue is just a flash in the pan that will go away the moment a star player or two get a catastrophic injury and the team starts losing.

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Honestly, only someone who knows nothing about sports would say this. FFS, men and women generally compete separately in athletic competitons - for good reason.

Women's soccer, like the vast majority of women's sports, is not an elite athletic product. If the USWNT played head to head against the USMNT, the women would get destroyed. It wouldn't even be close. Indeed, the USWNT embarassd itself by losing to an under 15 boys team. Australia's women's soccer team is in the same boat. These are losses to teams made up of children - which makes some sense, because watching women's soccer is not much different than watching children play soccer, including with respect to size, speed, strength, endurance, and skill. The USWNT is a great women's soccer team, but that is it, and they are certainly many rungs down from the level of good men's soccer teams, including the USMNT.

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You are extrapolating a fuck load. No, the wnba doesn't get watched for a number of reasons. Marketing is part of it considering I've never seen a commercial for my local team. Another part of it is the absolute market saturation of the NBA. It's fucking everywhere and I can't stand more basketball. I'm sure others feel the same. Let's face this fact as well, Americans don't go to any soccer match to see a particular player. Except for maybe Rooney or Beckham. How many soccer players can you name? A huge number of people go to NBA games specifically to watch LeBron take on Leonard. Curry v harden. That just doesn't happen in a wnba because of multiple reasons.

Finally, the size difference in the NBA and wnba is astronomical compared to the size difference of men's v women's American national soccer teams. They literally can't pay women what they pay men because the revenue doesn't exist in basketball. That is absolutely not the case in women's soccer.

The women are regularly on national TV, draw huge crowds, and bring championships to the us on a world stage. Pay the ladies.

[–]Steakasaurus 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

This is very simple. The money comes from those buying merch and watching. The men (yes even though they aren't champions) are bringing in billions of dollars. The women (champions) are bringing in millions. The women are making roughly 13% of the revenue being generated and the men are making about 8% of the revenue generated. The simple part is this. People want fast paced intense games. The men are better and more fun to watch in general. The female champions were beaten by male children. How many people line up to watch kids play football (soccer). How much merch do they sell etc. Its primarily a skill based reason. People love watching the best. THe women simply are not the best. Best women sure. But not the best overall.
To say marketing is the reason more people watch the men is comical. Men are the primary subscribers to sports. We buy the merch, we go full hardcore into this stuff. Are there female hardcore fans? Of course. However we both know that men vastly outnumber women in this respect. It's the same in the fashion area where female models make more than male models. Men are simply not as into fashion as females are overall and that's fine. You also seem to forget that advertisers etc aren't pushing some narrative. They want money. That's their narrative. They do countless studies/samples and follow the money. If 1000 people are surveyed in an area 50/50 men to women ratio and 5% of the females say they're into X and 60% of men say they're into X then yes X will be marketed more towards men. Because men already like X more. Haven't you ever wondered why a ton of commercials for household items show the man as a bumbling idiot barely able to breath? Meanwhile the wife is damn near a super hero? Women buy the vast majority of household items and the advertisers know this. The ads didn't create this discrepancy they're simply pandering to it.

If the marketing was 50/50 for all things you would STILL see men and women drift to different areas in an asymmetrical fashion because thats life. It's been shown even in babies ffs. However I have a feeling you might be one of those people that think that what you like in life is 100% caused by your environment but that has been proven demonstrably false.

[–]Boognish_is_life 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Steakasaurus 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

That's your response to what I wrote? I'm glad I didn't expound upon these ideas further. Next time do your own research before arguing with someone

As you’ll see—separate and apart from any prize money awarded by FIFA—U.S. Soccer has, over the past decade, paid our Women’s National Team more than our Men’s National Team in salaries and game bonuses, and we continue to make unprecedented investments in our women’s program. https://www.ussoccer.com/governance/board-of-directors/us-soccer-president-carlos-cordeiro/open-letter-july-29-2019-finding-common-ground

As Dwight Jaynes pointed out four years ago after the U.S. women beat Japan to capture the World Cup in Vancouver, there is a big difference in the revenue available to pay the teams. The Women's World Cup brought in almost $73 million, of which the players got 13%. The 2010 men's World Cup in South Africa made almost $4 billion, of which 9% went to the players. https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikeozanian/2019/03/07/world-cup-soccer-pay-disparity-between-men-and-women-is-justified/#5d242ddd6da4

[–]Boognish_is_life 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

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You're such a coward dude. I've never said it's a conspiracy. I don't have all the facts and neither do you. The facts I do have show that they work just as hard and do just as much work as the men. They also win more and are therefore better than the men. And since that's the case, they deserve to be paid equally. Whether they are paid equally is not for me to say or prove. You are here trying to argue they deserve less than men because they lost a scrimmage match they didn't want or need to win? You think them throwing that game hurt their egos? No, they lost because scoring wasn't their intent. Beating kids wasn't their intent. They had nothing to gain by winning that scrimmage except taking a talking point away from a bunch of incels who don't know how to interact with women.

You really should check your priorities. This sub might get more positive attention if you pathetic boys didn't spend your time whining about women fighting for equality and focused on tackling issues that actually do affect men. Workplace injuries? Support OSHA and fight against the asshole Trump is appointing to secretary of labor. Prostate cancer and suicide? Support a healthcare system where men can get the help they need. Paid paternity leave? Vote Democrat and progressive because they are the only ones fighting for it. Stop using this as a breeding ground for hating women. It's pathetic and makes everyone who does fight for a better world for men look like shit by association.

Women's pay increasing has nothing to do with you. Change my mind.

[–]Steakasaurus 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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For the record, I want to separate out 3 points:

1- Profitability of the two leagues is, and should be a factor. If, for example, the Women’s World Cup paid the same prize money as the Men’s, it would go bankrupt and there would be no more Women’s World Cup.

Similar logic may apply here... and I support that argument.

2- Negotiated pay differences (women getting a secured salary no matter how often or well they play, while men get paid per game with bonuses for performance) are something everyone needs to get over.

Individuals on EITHER side of that could complain about the advantages of the other... so unless we want to unify the contract negotiation across all leagues... or completely fracture it to an individual-basis... there’s no improving it.

3- finally: but the USSF report is inviting criticism because it’s saying:

“Hey, we pay women more for 2 jobs than we pay me for 1!”

To which the women will say: “Uh... yeah. Exactly the point we were making, idiots. How about you tell everyone what you pay us for 1 job vs men for that 1 job.”

It not being apples to apples means it’s not a counterpoint to the original claim.

If the women’s pay is a+b...

And the men’s pay is B+C...

Women are complaining that B+C > a+b... and that B > b.

The USSF just responded with “a+b > B.” Which is true... but has nothing to do with the either complaint.

It’s a shitty argument... made even worse by several readily available good ones that they just... ignored.

[–]cutthechatter_red2 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

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Yes. Exactly. That’s why the data is terrible.

There are 4 categories:

1: Women’s Income from USSF for League Play

2: Women’s Income from USSF for International Play

3: Men’s Income from League Teams for League Play

4: Men’s Income from USSF for International Play

If you want to see the difference in pay for League and international play, compare #1 and #2... same gender, same source of income. Only variable is the work (League vs International).

If you want to see difference in pay for gender, compare #2 and #4... same work (international play) and same source of income. Only variable is gender.

You can’t really compare any of the others.

But that’s what this report does. Only worse.

Because it compares #4 to #1+2 lumped together... which is beyond useless... and smells like lying with statistics. #4 isn’t comparable to #1, much less #1+2, so the attempt is hella suspect.

-~-~-~-

It’s like if you and I both worked 2 jobs. You work 2 jobs at CopyCo, 80 hours a week in total, for $80,000.

I work 1 job at CopyCo, 40 hours a week, for $70,000... with a second job at the sister company PrinterCo, 40 hours a week for $50,000.

Well, shit. It looks like we work the same number of hours every week, and CopyCo pays you more than me! That’s unfair!

No. Because that’s an unfair comparison. I’m including your pay and hours from 2 jobs vs my pay from 1 and hours from 2.

Same thing in the report. “Women’s total pay” in the report includes income from 2 sources: USSF league pay and USSF international pay. “Men’s total pay” in the report includes income from 1 source: USSF international pay.

Comparing those two things as if they were the same... is bullshit.

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A man and a woman both apply for the same job, and both get hired.

The HR manager meets with the man and offers to options. He can get paid $100K/year + 5% commission or he can get $50K/year and have a 20% commission. The man thinks a bit and says that he'll take the second option.

The HR manager offers the same two options to the woman, who picks the first.

After a year of working, the man has sold $1M of merchandise while the woman has sold only $200K.

So the man gets paid: $50K + $1M * 20% = $250K.

The woman gets paid: $100K + $200K * 5% = $110K.

Notice that the woman is making $110K/$200K = 55% of what she brought in, while the man is only getting 25% of what he brought in.

So the woman picked her option, she sold what she sold, and she is getting a bigger percentage of the total than the man... but patriarchy wage gap is the problem???

(Also, notice that the company made $90K profit from the woman's efforts and $750K from the man's efforts. Who should they be hiring, more people like that woman or like that man?)

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Maybe someone thinks your job pays too much as well, or mine. There's an aspect of market demand, which will dictate what players are getting paid. Women's soccer doesn't generate as much revenue as men's soccer, but the pay stipulations for the women's team (based on the chart I saw a few weeks ago) were completely off, and constituted a gamble in every way; to the point where you'd likely find mercenary players on the team by all logic, rather than players interested in playing as a team.

But now I'm confused as to who's making more/less money, and this whole thing seems to be getting spun into a PR "he said"/"she said" thing by the league. It's not the first time management has passed the buck, and it won't be the last.

Speaking from a labor negotiation standpoint, if the women's team wants to be paid equally to the men's team, the men's team needs to vocally and strategically support that. Likewise. The vice versa. It's leverage, and it's the only thing management understands if they value the labor.

Contrary to what people think, $165,000 a year, which is what I understand Megan Rapinoe's salary to be, is not a fortune by any stretch. It's more comfortable than $40,000 yearly, but considering taxes, living expenses, etc, you don't walk away with a whole lot of it. Once people stop hating anyone who makes even a penny more than them, we can begin actually being a cooperative society. Unfortunately, we've been conditioned to think anybody with more money than ourselves is the problem.

For the record, I'd support a co-ed team. It would be a better unit anyway. Nobody can give me horse shit about "well, won't sexual tensions get in the way?", because I can nearly guarantee you both the men's and women's teams currently have gay players. The fuck would anyone care, anyway? You're here to watch the game. It's not PornHub.

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I thought so but i might be wrong.

The women's game is nowhere near the level of men's game when it comes to local leagues and the main reason the numbers are so high in the international stage is because of the interest of the men's game and the general prestige of the FIFA World Cup. Personally am loving seeing the women's game grow. My two favourite things in one package. *-*

It does look good for the women game though given they had such a good world Cup but they are decades behind compared the men's game when you look at viewer number, gate receipts, sponsors, etc.

Pay wise the in local leagues i bet they are not commanding anything like the men's game for the above reasons (and general all round skill depth in the game. Looking forward to seeing a Messy type player in the woman's game but it could be decades away).

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Title	...and all of the sudden, no one cares about “equal pay” anymore...
Author	greatdanev
Upvotes	3644
Comments	447
Date	July 31, 2019 2:59 PM UTC (6 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/ck9lyy/and_all_of_the_sudden_no_one_cares_about_equal/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/and-all-of-the-sudden-no-one-cares-about-equal-pay.1205147 https://theredarchive.com/post/1205147

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