I Think There's Room for a Men's Liberation Front - Let's Talk About It

SlothMonster9 · 2024-01-10T08:57:08+00:00

Everything you said is beyond reasonable and I will join any movement that ecourages equality of opportunity in both genders.

Good_Result2787 · 2024-01-09T23:12:29+00:00

I guess I would sort of explore point #2, about the danger and violence.

But I do so from the perspective of a man born with a physical disability. I do not know if the same expectations are placed on me as a man to "be a man" in that way. Conversely, if they are not, and if the fact that I'm less physically capable than some men is why they are not.

This probably isn't the best place for that discussion, but it is the point I would discuss as these aspects of some people's idea of masculinity are things over which I've ruminated in my life.

fakingandnotmakingit · 2024-01-10T00:04:20+00:00

Okay lots to think about. But I will preface and say for the most part i agree with you

(I think) that probably the most compelling battles would be:

Length of jail terms/Gender-affected Treatment - People should be jailed based on their crime, not their demographic. Also car insurance rates being higher for men ect.

Agreed. However on the car insurance thing - we'd have to overhaul the entire insurance industry and regulate it to be a government scheme in that case. Why? Because discriminating is how insurance works.

Have athsma? A prior illness etc? Your insurance goes up

Are you young? Then your car insurance goes up

Live in a flood risk/earthquake risk city? Insurance goes up

Removing discrimination from the insurance industry means you will need to fight for a government welfare scheme instead. Because otherwise insurance won't profit.

I'm okay with this by the way. But you'll have to fight fiscal conservatives on it more so than feminists

Expectation to be more comfortable with violence and danger - Going to war, killing spiders, expected to be able to fight other men on the street ect.

I agree that men shouldn't be expected to put themselves in danger for dumb things. And women should kill their own spiders.

I would theoretically agree with a gender neutral draft. But we'd have to look at how we could make that work in a practical manner. While there are very strong military women, the average woman is still less strong than the average man. Guns are the big game changer here. But regular infantry and trenches with carrying the wounded etc for your average women might become a liability. It might make more sense to draft women into areas where physical strength matters less. Airforce maybe? Medical corps as nurses? I don't know. I'm no expert. But just chucking out thoughts

We'd also need to account for the very high rape statistics of women in the military, often by their own comrades. Do we have segregated battalions?

Expectation to have low standards - Expectation that men have to be more comfortable being dirty, sleeping on the floor, doing gritty, painful, or 'nasty' work.

Yes men shouldn't be expected to be on the floor.

Gritty.. Do you mean hard physically? I'm all for gender equality but when I move house or furniture... Let's just say that when we pick up a couch my husband absolutely does a lot more of the actual carrying while my arms are mostly stabilisers and you can tell that if he had another dude holding the end I'm holding this would already be over. Instead he has to wait for me. So you know I'm a feminist but biologically men are physically stronger and women hmgive birth.

As for nasty work are we thinking stuff like oil rigs and septic tanks? Men don't just do those because they're men. They're high paying jobs too. The men doing them could go and work retail and hospo like many pink collar workers but i think they get paid more.

Consider that a lot of trades make a lot of money and don't have student debt. Lots of men I know chose to be a plumber and not a lawyer for reasons other than just "being male"

Expectation to be stoic and rational - Men should be allowed to have non-violent emotional expression the same as women, not shamed for being scared or sad or anxious ect.

Agreed.

DoinIt989 · 2024-01-10T03:23:44+00:00

Length of jail terms/Gender-affected Treatment - People should be jailed based on their crime, not their demographic. Also car insurance rates being higher for men ect.

There's valid reasons for this. Men aren't jailed "based on their demographic". It's because they are more likely to have a larger criminal history. They pay more in car insurance because men cause more insurance claims.

Expectation to be more comfortable with violence and danger - Going to war, killing spiders, expected to be able to fight other men on the street ect.

Men cause more violence and danger. That's why they are expeted to be more comfortable with it.

Expectation to have low standards - Expectation that men have to be more comfortable being dirty, sleeping on the floor, doing gritty, painful, or 'nasty' work.

Expectation to be stoic and rational - Men should be allowed to have non-violent emotional expression the same as women, not shamed for being scared or sad or anxious ect.

These standards are enforced by men and/or they are class based. Women are also expected to do gritty, painful and nasty work - nursing, housekeeping, etc.

Safinated · 2024-01-10T00:31:56+00:00

Well, is it going to be a legal or social movement? That matters a lot

Muskelmaus · 2024-01-10T11:35:13+00:00

If I was a man, I'd go for the easy one first: The draft.

GuysItsGalxy · 2024-01-10T14:57:51+00:00

Honestly you're missing a lot more important topics and this sounds extremely superficial.

Let's talk about the fact women are more likely to be the sole abuser in heterosexual relationships and more likely to instigate mutual abuse by 80% yet men still have 2 shelters across the entire United States. In turn let's talk about how men are perceived as more violent and yet these stats above as well as the lesbian community has more abuse AND divorce than any community and the gay community has the happiest demographic.

Let's talk about the fact that mental health is both still stigmatized for men but that also conventional therapy is not designed to help men with most of their problems. How we still have the highest suicide rate, and choose to use more lethal means to do so.

Let's talk about the fact that male children are sexually assaulted at almost if not the same rate as our young women considering underreporting and yet were told the exact opposite to push agendas.

Let's talk about the fact that men still don't have body autonomy, were forced to draft, forced into mutilation "circumcision", forced to provide child support even when women aren't forced into children, FORCED TO PROVIDE CHILD SUPPORT FOR OUR RAPISTS, and so many more examples.

Let's talk about the REAL issues plaguing men not what people expect of us. Because although they can be detrimental I'm 100% sure the fact that men don't have QUALITY support is the issue here. I'm sure the fact that men and their qualms are shoved to the deepest pits of hell because most people don't wanna hear it is the problem.

You want change? Talk about real issues not superficial crap

Let's talk about how you say men can't request women change themselves to better support a community where we coincide or it's oppression but women can? Why can't I request we put a stop to the ever rising abuse of men BY WOMEN, they tell us to just stop raping right? Same damn thing

Women are the oppressors now whether they are trying to be or not, feminism has never been about equality and is constantly pushing men farther into the hole. The wonderful woman who opened DV shelters to begin with wished for men to have their own as well, the lovely feminists didn't agree and banned her from her own shelters.

There's too much to put into context for one comment but I hope this opens some of your minds to the reality of male oppression. They aren't trying to help us for a reason

Ohmaygahh · 2024-01-10T17:22:50+00:00

Conversations like this lose a lot of meaning when you consider the fact that there is a sizeable group of reasonable, rational, well educated and informed men that will have very different ideas of how they'd like things to look like that well be extremely divergent from your/this take.

richard_golbes · 2024-01-09T22:44:03+00:00

expected to be able to fight other men on the street

Wut

johnnybayarea · 2024-01-09T22:45:44+00:00

- Length of jail terms; sure punishment for same crime should be the same regardless of gender, but this likely affects very few people. (So probably not worth the focus)

- Expectation of violence. In terms of war, I think women should be drafted as well into support roles. You likely do not want 50% women in the trenches with you where strength and speed are likely difference makers. I mean they'd counter fighting on the streets with getting r.ped so that's likely a dead end conversation. What would you even fight for? women fighting men on the street more?

- Dirty work. Men do not have to do dirty work, but the pay generally makes it more appealing. Men are welcome to go to school, get in debt, for a middling office job that most women have. If less men sign up to jump in and clear septic tanks, their pay would only keep rising (i'm assuming its already much higher than a retail or generic office worker. Not sure what you'd be fighting for here...there are very few jobs closed to either gender.

- i can 100% agree that men should fight for their right to feel. We're people too and life is hard for everyone, but with that said you can't be mad at a woman that would rather partner with someone emotionally strong which would lead to more positive outcomes. If a woman suddenly accused you of lying/cheating, slashed your tires, etc...most people would agree this person needs help, but you should get out. If a man were constantly feeling like he wanted to commit suicide, or hurt someone he needs help, but you should also get out.

If I were to commit to a list of things society could do for men:

- Men should be able to express themselves to their women, before they hit critical levels of depression.

- Divorce laws and child custody laws.

- Focus on finding lasting family relationship

sorry I didn't read the rest of your post past those bullet points.

macone235 · 2024-01-10T01:50:46+00:00

There's no such thing as toxic masculinity. It is simply a byproduct of selecting for masculinity that does not benefit women, so they whine and complain about it, because that's all you really can do.

-Shes-A-Carnival · 2024-01-10T01:16:12+00:00

there may be "room" for it, what there isn't is male interest in it

VTHokie2020 · 2024-01-09T23:12:16+00:00

I don't think there ever will be a united men's movement. We live in a very individualist society, and I don't agree with a lot of your premises.

Like disparate sentencing. Men commit more crimes than women, of course they'll be incarcerated more. Or expectation of killing spiders. What exactly can be done about it?

There are one or two battles I think can be won though. Like affirmative action. I dislike the idea that women get subconscious/conscious benefits in hiring/promotion because a small amount of women software engineers is somehow a bad thing. Funny how a small amount of male secretaries for example is just accepted.

Lift_and_Lurk · 2024-01-09T22:25:06+00:00

Isn’t there a r/menslib sub?

mrcs84usn · 2024-01-10T00:33:48+00:00

If you hang out in r/MensRights or similar websites, they talk about that kind of stuff. “A Voice For Men” has some great stuff.

Hard_Corsair · 2024-01-10T16:22:43+00:00

there will be many MEN who oppose these sorts of changes.

Sign me up

Expectation to be more comfortable with violence and danger - Going to war, killing spiders, expected to be able to fight other men on the street ect.

I'd rather advocate for women to become more comfortable with violence and danger than for men to be less comfortable with it.

Expectation to be stoic and rational - Men should be allowed to have non-violent emotional expression the same as women, not shamed for being scared or sad or anxious ect.

Being stoic and rational is a good thing, and arguing against it simply decreases the quality of men.

AlmostKindaGreat · 2024-01-10T00:59:43+00:00

You seem to be proposing a mix of legal changes and changes in general attitude toward men. The legal changes may have a chance, because there are a lot of men who vote. The changes in attitude toward men I'm skeptical about.

Culturally, among women and men, women are just seen as more sympathetic. Women did not always have equal rights in the workplace, but they were not conscripted and they were first in the lifeboats along with children. Usually these things are still the case.

So while the fight for equal rights in the workplace was hard, since it goes against stereotypes, there never had to be a fight for a rosy perception of women in general. In areas of human achievement (like career and sports) women ask to be seen as tough and hard (in that context), like men, but we mostly just keep on viewing them as good, gentle, and worthy of extra care. It's either sexism or benevolent sexism, depending on the context and perspective. Or it's just human nature. I'm not sure if we can change it.

On the flip side, men will always be relatively unsympathetic. There are legal changes that arguably benefit men all the time. But making people perceive men as sympathetically as we perceive women is just a pipe dream. We're not wired for it.

Bikerbats · 2024-01-09T22:29:35+00:00

Coming from a long line of soldiers I have to ask this: What is with this generation of so-called men, and them pissing their pants because men go to war and women don't?

Cool_Ranch_2511 · 2024-01-09T23:16:16+00:00

I do believe we are reaching a point where men can be mobilized but I'm opposed to this particular movement mostly because I don't believe in the sincerity of this movement and it will mostly be used as a political tool and to get politicians elected.

I'd like to see something a little bit more interesting, please. Maybe something more social media market-driven. Andrew Tate looked like a step in the right direction tbh

TheGreatBeefSupreme · 2024-01-10T11:12:34+00:00

Men cannot be liberated from gender roles without fatally compromising the integrity of civilization. It will never happen.

AutoModerator · 2024-01-09T22:22:47+00:00

Attention!

You can post off topic/jokes/puns as a comment to this Automoderator message.
For "Debate" and "Question for X" Threads: Parent comments that aren't from the target group will be removed, along with their child replies.
If you want to agree with OP instead of challenging their view or if the question is not targeted at you, post it as an answer to this comment.
OP you can choose your own flair according to these guidelines., just press Flair under your post!

Thanks for your cooperation and enjoy the discussion!

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

AidsVictim · 2024-01-10T04:24:56+00:00

I think the discourse around equality in society has gotten - admirably - deep in the weeds at this point.

I don't think there's much admirable about it at this point. Leaving aside the outcomes it takes up a massively disproportionate amount of public discourse and energy over far more urgent problems. In the modern world it's largely just a reflection of the narcissism and false consciousness the general population engages in.

But what should men be fighting for?

(I think) that probably the most compelling battles would be:

Length of jail terms/Gender-affected Treatment - People should be jailed based on their crime, not their demographic. Also car insurance rates being higher for men ect.

Expectation to be more comfortable with violence and danger - Going to war, killing spiders, expected to be able to fight other men on the street ect.

Expectation to have low standards - Expectation that men have to be more comfortable being dirty, sleeping on the floor, doing gritty, painful, or 'nasty' work.

Expectation to be stoic and rational - Men should be allowed to have non-violent emotional expression the same as women, not shamed for being scared or sad or anxious ect.

Besides prison reform I don't think any of this shit matters much. In fact it just looks like you want men to mirror women, as if they were a healthy standard (they're not).

ON TOXIC MASCULINITY: I for the sake of discussion, I'll say clearly that my definition of "Toxic Masculinity" is the belief that there is a form of SOCIALLY-DEFINED 'masculinity' that requires men to engage in harmful behaviors, LIKE the items listed above. Since this is such a ticklish term for so many, I would put forward one more item:

BENEVOLENT MASCULINITY needs to be better defined as an alternative - so that there are examples of masculine behavior that men can be proud of, instead of ONLY having behaviors that are "bad" that men have to avoid or else they're also bad.

This is probably your strongest point, although I don't put much stock in the term toxic masculinity. But men definitely would benefit from having (successful) mentors and tutors teaching and guiding them instead of the social free for all which has become standard in the Western world.

Just as there were many women in the past who opposed women's liberation, there will be many MEN who oppose these sorts of changes. Some out of ignorance, some out of their own prejudice, some because THEY have benefited from these institutions being upheld, some out of shame or embarrassment because they have internalized these things as a point of pride and don't know what they'd do if they lost it.

Or it's because most of it somewhere between useless and harmfully feminizing for most men. Not that this has a chance of amounting to anything.

I think the LEAST compelling argument that men should probably distance ourselves from are:

Requiring women change their behavior to make men's lives easier - Requiring other demographics to cater to you just because they're not YOUR demographic is seeking a system of oppression... where you're on top.

That's essentially what you're asking men to do here but ok. I don't think women should change their behaviour to make mens lives easier. They should do it because a lot of modern female behaviour is not only harmful to their own social outcomes but is essentially anti social, creating dysgenic low fertility outcomes that crash society.

WilliamWyattD · 2024-01-10T04:28:34+00:00

This is related to the whole attitude many women have about men's issues: "Why don't you organize and solve them yourselves like we did our issues?" Of course, that isn't quite how history went exactly. But on a deeper level, I'm not sure the genders should be symmetrical on this.

When men really organize as a unit, as 'men' in opposition to 'women', bad things can happen. Men still have absolute power if they decide to take it. There is no higher authority to put them in check.

In addition, whatever issues men have now, even if society is now female advantaged to some extent, the situation is not symmetrical with women's circumstances in the 1960s. I think it would be healthiest if men and women came together as citizens to address 'male issues'. This strikes me as safer and healthier for all.

AdmirableSelection81 · 2024-01-10T15:05:35+00:00

Expectation to have low standards - Expectation that men have to be more comfortable being dirty, sleeping on the floor, doing gritty, painful, or 'nasty' work.

Who do you think will do this work? WOMEN? If men don't do the nasty/dangerous work, society collapses.

obviousredflag · 2024-01-10T16:34:13+00:00

But what should men be fighting for?

I don't like how you address all men just for belonging to that label group. I don't need a liberation front. I don't need to be liberated. If you are shamed for expressing sadness, talk to the people who shame you and talk with people who also get shamed. Your identity group is "men who need a liberation front", not "men as a whole".

I don't want to be seen as someone willing to fight your liberation war, just as you don't want society to see men as the ones comfortable to fight in wars.

BENEVOLENT MASCULINITY needs to be better defined as an alternative - so that there are examples of masculine behavior that men can be proud of, instead of ONLY having behaviors that are "bad" that men have to avoid or else they're also bad.

So part of your men's liberation front fight is to tell men how what is SOCIALLY DEFINED as masculine can have positive outcomes IF THE MEN STICK TO THIS CONCEPT OF MASCULINTY?! I thought the main problem is that some men are just not masculine in this definition and therefore also don't get to have the benevolent masculine traits.

As long as there is "masculine behavior" no matter who defines it, there will be men not fitting these traits/behavior. Once you go so broad as to include every man in being "masculine", the term loses it's meaning, as everyone, even children and women are then masculine.

BatemaninAccounting · 2024-01-11T00:24:08+00:00

Also car insurance rates being higher for men ect.

You just destroyed the insurance industry in one simple trick. Insurance premiums are based on a complexish formula for risk assessment. Men sadly are riskier drivers. Multiple factors for why men are, but ultimately it's very reasonable to adopt this understanding. Thus, men should be charged more due to this statistical variance.

Gravel_Roads · 2024-01-09T23:29:19+00:00

[permanently deleted]

2024-01-10T08:59:41+00:00

I don't know if you've been paying attention but it's well under way. Although it's less of a liberation and more of a labor strike.

Suddenfury · 2024-01-10T10:43:38+00:00

I think your thoughts about BENEVOLENT MASCULINITY are the strongest, like asking around on social media what people think about benevolent masculinity and get people thinking about that could help some people get a perspective on it. It's better to give boys an idea of what to do rather than what not to do.

Actually, the current discourse on toxic masculinity, what not to do, will tell you that you can't do anything really. If we instead would talk about benevolent masculinity, it would likely end up with almost everything being benevolent, you can do anything, and that would be empowering for boys.

CraftyCooler · 2024-01-10T12:39:20+00:00

It sounds great, but I'm afraid that you are trying to defy millions years of evolution that made things as they are. Men are expected to be dominant - you can equalize everything, and most women will still go for men who are taller, stronger, have higher social position, are able to control(or hide) emotions, make more money, look masculine(that is - stronger than them). There are of course exceptions - but still, general trend is like this and will be like this. We can of course create some narration that it is ok to be weaker, blah, blah - but at the end of the day, everything will be as it always was.

Statistically - women at the higher end of payscale are most single, as well as men at the bottom.

Technologically advanced society created environment that is against our biology - women can obtain resources on their own, some feminine traits actually can be used to obtain more resources than it is possible for men.

We can either hope that AI agents will wreak havoc in office jobs held by women, so education below top tier schools will be useless so gender pay gap will increase.

Or we can calm down and grab a popcorn(recommended).

untamed-italian · 2024-01-10T13:11:12+00:00

Get rid of toxic and benevolent masculinity.

Just say misandry.

abaxeron · 2024-01-10T16:08:37+00:00

I'm sure I missed a bunch of stuff,

I don't see any mention of money.

When it was decided (mostly by women) that single-sex public schools are wrong, men have lost anywhere between tens and hundreds of times more education facilities to coeducation than women. When the government started holding its guns to employers' heads and called it "anti-discrimination", men have lost significantly more workplaces than women. (When single-sex prisons were declared illegal... Oh wait, that one never happened!) Men have never been compensated for these losses; instead, millions of people are convinced that women should be compensated for not having even earlier invaded the spaces that men have created and maintained for centuries by and for themselves.

And after that come "safety nets" funded ALMOST ENTIRELY by taxation of married men with children, and benefitting PREDOMINANTLY single never-married women... and female divorcees. Because it will definitely never negatively impact people's decisions on how many children to have. Social Security budget of the US has surpassed its military budget under Obama. Under Biden, it has surpassed $1 trillion.

All of this under general ... and generous assumption that the money (mostly) women get from (mostly) men through division of assets in divorce is somehow "fair".

MidoriEgg · 2024-01-10T18:20:36+00:00

doing gritty, painful, or 'nasty' work. << one thing I disagree on for men having it worse. Healthcare gets really overlooked in terms of dangerous, painful and nasty work and that’s predominantly women. I’ve had a guy with a background in construction last 1 day on the ward, it wasn’t even that bad of a day. Healthcare, esp nurses and ‘below’ is seriously under appreciated.

The rest of the points seem fair.

Flightlessbirbz · 2024-01-10T20:17:08+00:00

Jail terms - Yes, men should not face harsher sentences for equal crimes. Imo there are WAY too many people in jail/prison in the US period, this needs to change.

Car insurance - Men (young men, specifically) are considered a higher risk and do pay more on average. However, across all age brackets, there is no significant difference for gender. And being >25 is the biggest factor in getting a lower rate, so if we want to argue that it’s wrong to charge people differently based on their demographic, age discrimination should be considered first. source The same is true for all insurance - if you have a preexisting condition or are older, health insurance goes up, for example. None of it is fair but that’s how insurance works.

Expectation to be more comfortable with violence - I most agree here, men shouldn’t be expected to be comfortable with violence. That being said, the average man is physically larger and stronger than the average woman, so when there was a draft, it makes sense why women were not included. But the bottom line is that there shouldn’t be a draft. And whoever is less afraid of spiders should be the one to take care of them.

Expectation to be stoic/rational - I also agree here, but I think people overestimate how much women are really allowed to show emotions. Women can show more fear and sadness than men, but are not allowed to show anger or frustration without being accused of being crazy or bitchy. Every man I’ve dated has really had a very low tolerance for me showing any negative emotions. Men are expected to be stoic, women to be happy and bubbly and show just the right amount of sadness or fear at the right times.

So, not really a disagreement, just some thoughts and nuance to add.

Still_Succotash5012 · 2024-01-11T07:33:51+00:00

Do you believe there are roles that men are better at than women? And vice versa? Going further, do you think each human is born with the capacity to do anything any other human can do?

If so, do you want no judgemental difference between men and women? Because that seems to be your basis for this "liberation" from my perspective. You want men to be liberated from their societal responsibilities of protection(war), provisoning(status), and stoicism(emotional control) because women are being liberated from their previous societal responsibilities of childbearing, housework, and emotional nuturing, to name a few.

I warn you, going down this path will not lead to some grand, liberating utopia where everyone is treated fairly, as if we were just identical, gelatinous blobs. In reality, when people are freed from their societal responsibilities, they embark upon the path of sin.

If every man and woman decided to be "liberated" and shed their societal responsibilities foisted upon them, there would be complete chaos. And in that chaos, a small group would impose order, and responsibilities in turn, by force if necessary. So the cycle of history goes.

justforlulz12345 · 2024-02-01T21:01:31+00:00

Make it men’s island liberation front so it stands for MILF

Title	I Think There's Room for a Men's Liberation Front - Let's Talk About It
Author	Gravel_Roads
Upvotes	29
Comments	176
Date	January 9, 2024 10:22 PM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/192rjpb/i_think_theres_room_for_a_mens_liberation_front/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/i-think-theres-room-for-a-mens-liberation-front.1242601 https://theredarchive.com/post/1242601

Comments