Should little to no reciprocity in physical touch (but not rejection) be taken as consent?

goatismycopilot · 2018-12-27T13:03:16+00:00

Many women have had the experience of saying no and getting a rage response or getting lectured about what a giant bitch they are because they do not want some weirdo playing with their hair. It bothers some women to get that label because they do not want to be hanging out with octopus man and some women are not bothered by it.

Dominemm · 2018-12-27T12:30:34+00:00

Ugh. My skin would be crawling sitting through that. Y'all have no concept of subtle.

Dude, touch once or twice. Or leave your legs in a position where it could have been an accidental bump and let her meet you half way.

Women want to feel like you actually like them, unless they happen to be on a casual sex mission. No one wants to feel like a zoo animal with constant petting and blantant innuendo.

CombatStacey · 2018-12-27T12:41:22+00:00

Women who have been molested as children may be inclined to zone out and let it happen, because it was the only way they could mentally protect themselves.

kandyapplez · 2018-12-27T11:03:57+00:00

these men are so fucking retarded i can't

what part of petting at and rubbing on someone sitting there like a stone sounds like they are into it lmao. like ur on a seduction subreddit and surprised that someone responding to your touches like a corpse turned out to be not that into it...wow.

this isn't a matter of consent its a matter of them being bored as fuck. he literally just did not turn her on in the slightest

SpaceWhiskey · 2018-12-27T14:13:06+00:00

If you try to engage physically with a girl, but she doesn't reciprocate, can you take this as consent?

No. Lack of a no doesn’t mean yes, this is pretty basic stuff.

petrichordium · 2018-12-27T15:48:46+00:00

They ARE telling you; you just don’t have the social acuity and skills to recognize it.

I glanced at your profile and elsewhere you describe yourself as a “bulldozer” who doesn’t care about feelings when you’re goal directed. That’s a self aggrandizing way of saying you’re yet another CS quant with low social awareness.

This isn’t as difficult with people who either have social awareness or value it and try to cultivate it. You do neither, so you’re going to need to accept you may one day get a pissed off girl who feels you wronged her.

esiemualB · 2018-12-27T10:43:25+00:00

No, it should not be taken as consent. "She might just be shy" is a shitty excuse to cross boundaries. If a shy person wasn't into what you're doing, they probably wouldn't say no, because they would be too scared. Better safe than sorry.

Aaren_Augustine · 2018-12-27T10:55:40+00:00

Women avoid confilict. One of the lesser known lessons from TRP theory.. That's why you should look for signs of IOIs and only then escalate

sublimemongrel · 2018-12-27T10:57:01+00:00

If you’re dating someone there’s a little more leeway generally speaking. But women don’t typically like overly affectionate men. Ok maybe I shouldn’t speak for women generally, I can’t stand it myself. Like dudes who have to be touching you all the time. Yuck not my thing.

As far as legal consent goes, it’s always better to err on the side of caution. Although I doubt any woman you are actually dating is like gonna start something over an unwanted hug. If you’re not sure idk you can ask.

meomeowmeoww · 2018-12-27T11:44:38+00:00

Women that are reading this: learn the fuck to say no

No.

neuk_mijn_oogkas · 2018-12-27T10:43:07+00:00

Maybe, maybe not—despite what people often like consent is a vague thing especially in the legal sense; the barriers are different with strangers and people you've known for a while and different with people with positions of power.

There is no hard simple algorithm that determines valid consent in a legal court case in the end. There are two polar extremes which are obvious which are verbal "yes" and verbal "no" but in between that lies a muddy land.

If you wanna cover your legal arse completely you of course go towards something to the verbal "yes".

lefactorybebe · 2018-12-27T09:30:11+00:00

I would say it shouldn't be taken as consent. Personally, I almost never outright tell someone to stop touching me. I'll give all sorts of cues and I imagine I look pretty damn uncomfortable if someone's touching me and I don't like it, but I won't outright tell someone to stop unless it's really escalating; it's extremely uncomfortable. Except for with my boyfriend, I'm just not a touchy person. I'm also a little conflict-averse, and actually telling someone to stop is like my last resort.

Luckily this doesn't happen often, most people pick up on the fact that I'm not responding to their touches and distance myself when I have the chance.

And yeah, that comment of yours is a little shitty. Not everyone's the same as you. Are you bad at picking up on these cues? Moving in and continuing to touch someone as they don't reciprocate and sit still there is pretty weird, but a lot of people will try not to make a big deal out of it.

jasonology09 · 2018-12-27T11:41:07+00:00

Is this even a real question? Yes. You are the asshole.

If you touch a woman (or any person for that matter) and she doesn't reciprocate or encourage it in any way, she's NOT into it. Period. End of story. Furthermore, if you're touching a girl and she's completely not responding, how are you still pressing the issue?! It's like fondling someone in a coma. Does that sound sexy to you?!

For whatever reason, sometimes women are afraid to outright reject a mans advances. Maybe they're afraid, or maybe their panic response is to freeze up, or any number of reasons. Doesn't matter, because if a girl wants you to touch her, she'll make it clear, maybe not necessarily with words, but you'll know. So if it's not explicitly clear she wants you to touch her, keep your hands to yourself.

Unconfidence · 2018-12-27T13:35:06+00:00

Sounds like this whole normie dating game just isn't your thing. Have you tried going for women more receptive to alternative approaches?

a_vanillae · 2018-12-27T14:55:02+00:00

I've always been able to say no pretty forcefully, then I end up feeling guilty or being made to feel guilty, which has lead to undesirable physical interaction a few times. We're damned either way.

-Mavs · 2018-12-27T15:31:51+00:00

This is fucking crazy: women on here DO require that you are mind reader.

First of all, why the fuck are you in a "stranger's" home if you don't trust them?

So, men have to walk on eggshells while dating while women have no fucking accountability whatsoever because they lack any level of assertiveness; equality my fucking ass.

TriadFamilyTimes · 2018-12-27T17:18:16+00:00

I take a lack of direct positive response as no consent. If she's not actively giving me "Yeah I like this" signals I assume she would rather not. Do this with men too fyi.

Yes if you make a girl make you stop when she's pretty obviously not into it you're the asshole.

GrumpyOldHistoricist · 2018-12-27T18:16:10+00:00

STOP TOUCHING STRANGERS

This is one of the many things PUAs talk about that’s always baffled me. Why the fuck are you touching random strangers in the first place? Strike up a conversation, hold it, maintain eye contact, be warm and relaxed, then say “let’s get out of here.” It’s not that hard and it’s way less creepy.

If you’re already in private, do the same as above minus the suggestion of a venue change. Instead, find a place in the conversation where there’s a natural lull and playfully but directly say, “come here.” If she’s not retarded (don’t fuck retarded girls) she’ll know that means she’s about to get kissed. If she’s into it she’ll close that last bit of distance on the couch (or floor or whatever). If she’s not, she won’t. This is a lot less grey consentwise and doesn’t require any uninvited touching.

LifterofThings · 2018-12-27T19:15:57+00:00

I think it's a bad idea given that women are very rarely direct about what they want and tend to freeze or shut down under stress...

... but then the power of dickful thinking in a dude who's going for third base is also difficult to overcome. It's like a perfect storm of shit for awkward blurred-line sexual encounters -- women are too afraid to speak up and boners compromise men's judgment.

killallthenarcs · 2018-12-27T09:53:50+00:00

Was she actually saying she didn't consent? Because it sounds to me like she was just saying she wasn't enthused. Did she pro-actively tell you she wasn't enthused or did you press her for answers?

This happens a fair bit in casual sex according the people I know who have a fair bit of casual sex. If sex is being had and it isn't being good sex, often the person who is unimpressed just sits back and lets the other person finish and then excuses themselves and any further contact will involve the answer "yeah let's not have sex again" It is very much part of the whole casual sex scene. Bad sex gets sort of... not taken seriously and written off early? I mean by "not taken seriously" sometimes it isn't even taken seriously enough to request it stop.

So long as she's not saying she didn't consent, and she's not asking for more sex with you, I'm not sure you've got anything to complain about. I mean surely you had to know that casual sex is well... casual... and often part of the casualness is not making a huge effort to lift a casual partner's game if they are being mediocre? Nobody has much invested and that means they don't chase you down and boil bunnies but it also means they just write you off as a FWB if you give an unimpressive or incompatible first performance.

red__aaron · 2018-12-27T14:15:27+00:00

It’s the responsibility of the initiator to make sure the person is saying YES, not their responsibility to say NO. Saying an outright “no” can be really scary, especially if you don’t know a guy well and think he might hurt you (even if this fear isn’t rational, it exists!)

Learn to read body language— if someone isn’t leaning towards you/reciprocating, wait for them to initiate.

If you can’t read body language USE YOUR DAMN WORDS.

Also, regardless of what legal consent is, ethical consent is YES, not the absence of a no.

rhyth7 · 2018-12-27T15:04:38+00:00

If a person isn't smiling and looking at you do not touch them. And it has to be a real smile too. Learn the difference between a real and fake smile, learn the difference between a happy voice and a blah one. You seem not to know how to read ppl at all. Lack of a no isn't consent.

testpostignorepls · 2018-12-27T15:43:43+00:00

I agree that women need to learn how to say no. But FIRST men have to learn how to take no for an answer. As things are today, it is still too dangerous for a woman to say no. How you should interpret the situation is

# D. You have already shown you don't respect boundaries and she is playing it safe.

[deleted] · 2018-12-27T17:52:38+00:00

I said no to a man he beat me and raped me. Before that a man threw a 44oz soda at my face. Before that a man told my whole job that I sucked his dick when I didn't and ruined my relationship. Before that a man threw an entire rack of wine on the floor at my job.

I continue to reject men and continue to get shit from it. I had one man in person that took it well, one out of hundreds that have thrown fits, hurt me, broken things, or hurt themselves. Saying no isn't easy. What is easy is you, you ask them, is this okay? Do you enjoy this? It's okay if you don't want to. I can stop if you are uncomfortable. I do this and I am a woman.

It's a duel responsibility to ask for consent. She should be saying no you're right, but that's not always what feels safe to do.

shoup88 · 2018-12-27T21:23:14+00:00

If you are someone who cannot read nonverbal cues, I think for your own sake you should err on the side of caution and either slow down, or use your words. If a woman is not responding to your touch, she’s probably not into you. Especially if you’re reached date 7 of pawing at her without moving forward! It’s a waste of your time.

Date girls who are physically attracted to you and don’t need to be convinced for to like you. If she’s physically cold, non responsive to touch, and seems distant, then she does not like you.

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Fiendish · 2018-12-27T14:30:39+00:00

This is such an important question! I understand the idea that many women may have had bad reactions when rejecting men and this makes it harder for them to say no. But if you don't actually reject advances, I can't see how you can blame a person who is brave enough to make moves for continuing to make moves. I think complete non-responsiveness is far too similar to voluntary submission in outward appearance. Unless they are literally catatonic with fear of something, I don't see how you can reasonably tell until it's too late and you've made someone uncomfortable.

So many people in this thread seem to lowkey believe in telepathy. Saying no mentally in your head is not the same as saying it out loud.

I get that it's hard to say no but it's absolutely essential. If non-responsiveness starts to be considered a withdrawal of consent then WHERE'S THE LINE!? How many seconds of non-responsivesness before it's sexual assault? Do you really want men counting down until a default rejection period? Should the default really be no?

What about girls who really want to be totally submissive and don't want to have to say yes out loud? If we make no the default, these women can't live out their fantasies!

Moldy_Gecko · 2018-12-27T15:07:13+00:00

Look at Your post. Why would you assume consent if they aren't reciprocating? 1 step forward two steps back until they reciprocate.

To add to this, shy girls are the easiest. Especially if you are shy. Lead a bit and they are the biggest closet freaks. I'm on the shy side of the spectrum and I always prefer shy girls, cuz my little bit of leading leads to taking them home. Believe it or not, there are shy 9s and 8s out there, quite often.

CyJackX · 2018-12-27T15:44:36+00:00

Some people don't like PDA. Some people also don't like confrontation. Put the two together and you have people who won't tell you you're making them uncomfortable. Everybody has some tolerance level between uncomfortable and willing-to-speak-up-about-it.

If they don't seem like they're into it, why continue?

I'd only continue after a positive response, why would I want to be petting someone like a doll with no response? The touching isn't just for my benefit. It's for us to enjoy each other in a new way. If they aren't enjoying themselves, it's just kinda masturbatory. Touching them and not caring how they feel about it?

gimmethebeat_boys · 2018-12-27T17:08:42+00:00

As far as things that you can do to avoid feeling like a creep or being more sure it isn't hard to ask "Is it okay if I..." before you touch someone. Every partner I have ever had, male and female, has never had an issue with me making sure they are comfortable. If anything you seem more considerate and arguably more attractive depending on your partner and the situation. If you are the one making advances it only makes sense that you would want that person to be okay with the things you do before you just do them.

Little to no reciprocation almost never means consent in my experience and should definitely not be taken as such on it's own. Of course there can be exceptions when partners know each other's cues very well, but you should always lean on the side of caution, especially if you are the person who makes more of the moves. Your intentions aren't bad, and it is great that you're genuinely asking to educate yourself and have an open discussion. Consent isn't something anyone should play with and you are doing exactly what you should by reading and responding.

GradualDecomp · 2018-12-27T17:41:06+00:00

Just from a human perspective, if I'm touching someone and they are not responding to it, I stop. Some people don't like to be hugged or touched and it's certainly not my goal to physically impose myself on anyone or make them uncomfortable. I'm also a hugger and am pretty physically affectionate, so I've definitely put myself in the position of accidentally crossing a physical boundary in an attempt to be warm and friendly. I just apologize, take note for the future, and try not to take it too personally. This seems pretty obvious for anyone who isn't autistic, right?

RandoBaeBeeG · 2018-12-27T18:17:34+00:00

Maybe life for a man because men respect other men and women tend to respect boundaries in general.

But men do not respect women. Period. Like you calling me a child, while we’re supposed to be having a debate. I could have called you a little boy, because that’s what you’re acting like. But I didn’t, because I have a general respect for people.

hobopenny · 2018-12-28T07:47:48+00:00

Then why would you think they're not also teaching girls to defend themselves and other girls to speak out? That was literally in the comment I replied to.

[deleted] · 2018-12-28T14:25:41+00:00

If you try to engage physically with a girl, but she doesn't reciprocate, can you take this as consent?

Are you ugly/unattractive? If yes it most likely means NO.

Are you hot? If yes it likely means NOT RIGHT NOW.

MGTOWtoday · 2018-12-27T16:21:25+00:00

Feminists have basically made it illegal to hit on girls. So more and more guys are going to stop doing it.

Title	Should little to no reciprocity in physical touch (but not rejection) be taken as consent?
Author	testpostignorepls
Upvotes	11
Comments	309
Date	December 27, 2018 9:13 AM UTC (7 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/a9xpy9/should_little_to_no_reciprocity_in_physical_touch/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/should-little-to-no-reciprocity-in-physical-touch.258335 https://theredarchive.com/post/258335

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