Taking biological sexual attraction to its natural end, will a certain percentage of men always be inherently undesirable?

Brilliant-Hornet1916 · 2021-01-11T23:11:41+00:00

I think both sides on this sub don't realise how there's not actually a great deal of difference in opinion is on this issue.

Pretty much everyone can get on board with the idea of the "minimum looks threshold". To get a physical relationship with an individual you realistically have to meet their minimum looks requirement - to demonstrate the point I don't think any of the women on here would sleep with the elephant man if they liked his personality, and neither are they queuing up to date a quadruple amputee. Only very delusion people would dispute this concept.

So that leaves the question - what percentage of men are so physically unattractive that they are very likely to be sexually unsuccessful in 2021? How unattractive do you have to be whereby you get a pass and we all admit "fair play, he never really had much of a chance, he may get lucky but his chances aren't great of finding someone". Some of the women and blue pillers on here may say the number is incredibly low - maybe 1 or 2%, The more realistic among us believe that it's more like 20% or 30%. I think this is where the key difference in opinion lies, but the overall concept is not in dispute.

Where I think a major difference in opinion lies is how much of your looks are under your control. Some delusion people on here genuinely think "have a shower and dress nice" is sufficient advice for a physically unattractive man to get more success. Your height, facial features, frame, balding genetics, race etc. is genetic and that is over 95% of your attractiveness. You cannot throw on some stylish clothes and hope no one notices you're 5ft5 with an ugly face.

I should also say that just because there are women on earth that would date a man, that doesn't mean he doesn't get any sympathy. Reason being if those women are so few and far between then

He may never be lucky enough to meet them
They may already be taken byt he time he meets them
The number of unattractive men outnumbers the number of women willing to sleep with unattractive men. So there will always be a surplus of unsuccessful men.

StopTheIncels · 2021-01-11T21:15:29+00:00

It’s a zero sum game. There’s always a loser.

8k years ago, 17 women reproduced for every man. Socially enforced monogamy evened the odds a bit.

EDIT: I’ve been corrected about this stat below. There are other reasonable explanations for the data.

EDIT 2: I stand by the statement that reproduction is a zero sum game. Eggs are a limited resource while sperm are plentiful.

Kaisha001 · 2021-01-11T21:19:28+00:00

It's hard to say. The data is inconclusive. Modern female hypergamy certainly exists, but why, to what extent, and what does that mean has yet to be determined IMO.

We don't know if men have just become (on average) less desirable (lower T, higher sedentary rates, etc...). Perhaps women choose innately based on where they feel they are, and so with makeup and snapchat filters are appraising themselves higher than before. Perhaps things like hormonal contraceptives have altered things more significantly than we would initially realize. Perhaps, no matter how good looking men get, women will always choose the top 20%, and so yes a number will then always be left out 'when the music stops'.

TBH these sorts of questions are the things I hoped would be discussed on PPD. There's a lot of ways to look at the data. But sadly no, we're left with arguing over 'water is wet' type things...

DebnathSelfMade · 2021-01-11T21:12:47+00:00

Biologically yes, however, we're a social species, and some individuals of our species love to be the different ones, and they crave the undesirable outcast type. Me, a former incel.

Sid_Insidious · 2021-01-11T23:36:27+00:00

20% of men will sadly be totally unfuckable.

20% of women will also be unfuckable, but tell that to the thirsty idiots sleeping with them.

Mustbeaight · 2021-01-11T23:43:16+00:00

Yes ... it’s really evident.. i dont know of a mammal specie where every single male gets to reproduce.. it’s impossible.. humans tried that with enforced monogamy to ensure that every male would get a woman because having huge numbers of disgruntled men without a woman is risky to keep balance in society

HumanNumber348 · 2021-01-12T00:47:12+00:00

If online dating didn’t exist, and you had to choose from your local men or be alone, only the EXTREMELY undesirable men would be left without partners, is what I think.

YouSaidChicken · 2021-01-11T21:25:35+00:00

Of course.

A great deal of men never had kids in the past. But they did get to fight barrels for people that did have kids and money.

The upper classes did sure, unless they were in the priesthood, other than that, they did fine. Your average idiots? Maybe not as much, unless, of course, all the men died fighting battles for everyone else.

And nowadays, a great deal of men won't ever have kids nor get married. There's many reasons for that situation for men, including, women don't want to get married any more, for many reason themselves.

LowCreddit · 2021-01-12T00:45:26+00:00

The real elephant in the room is that most wives aren't currently sexually attracted to their husbands. People forgot that marriage was never about undying lust. It was always about children and asset management.

TheJim66 · 2021-01-11T21:12:10+00:00

Yes there will always be a certain percentage of men that are unattractive. But that doesn't mean YOU have to be included in it.

SaBahRub · 2021-01-11T21:51:07+00:00

Sure, but there’s sex workers

And there are women who are inherently undesirable

killacamron93 · 2021-01-11T21:15:34+00:00

Yes it’s a sad fact, in fact there’s a lot of men who are only married because of their resources. My advice is to find where you are as early as possible then work on yourself.

GridReXX · 2021-01-11T22:05:16+00:00

It wouldn’t be unlike other mammals in the animal kingdom. Unabashed non consensual copulating is more of a thing among the non-human mammals. That’s how those males ensure their genes are propagated if they aren’t “chose.”

That’s the reality it seems.

GunnzzNRoses · 2021-01-12T03:17:03+00:00

It's not all about the sex lad. As one of those "exceptions" myself (Big dick, broad shouldered, charming and handsome 5'5 guy), it's unfulfilling. Don't get me wrong, it's not BAD per se, but it leaves a hole in your heart. Find a damn girlfriend. That's why incels are incels, they feel entitled to sex without even considering the greater meaning of it, which is a journey towards love.

basedmillennial95 · 2021-01-12T07:50:13+00:00

Sperm is cheap and eggs are expensive. Women have inherent value due to their wombs. Men's value is tied to their utility.

MyLadySupporter · 2021-01-12T08:40:37+00:00

As with most things, men basically get the worst shake in every way you can imagine.

women think the majority of us are below average
barring immense talent and fame or incredible wealth, the lower echelons of this “below average” group are invisible to women throughout their entire lives
few women are able to sympathize with how utterly soul-destroying it is to be in that situation
men are also forced, through women’s laziness and cowardice, to do all the heavily lifting in establishing a sexual relationship
unattractive men are expected and socially shamed to approach hundreds, if not thousands, of women over the course of their lives, meeting cruel rejection after rejection in order to find a mate
tolerances vary, but many experience a period of what amounts to psychological torture for years or even decades without success before giving up
then women patronise them with cosmetic “fixes” to the issue, which ignore the basic truth: women are extremely shallow. They only want the upper echelons of men. If a man is genetically cursed, his only hope is to trade resources for fake attention that will dry up the second his resources do.

SonicBackScratcher · 2021-01-11T21:11:44+00:00

Yes but a far smaller % than reddit posters on this would have you believe.

There is always going to be someone so outside the norms in looks personality or both that it just doesn't work. Nature can be harsh.

MasterTeacher123 · 2021-01-11T21:35:20+00:00

Unless your physical deformed or disabled, there are women who would be interested in fucking you. They’re probably not gonna look like Margot Robbie though.

There’s like 20% of the male population who women get wet for off first glance. Everyone else is either fuck no, neutral or sure as long as he’s not weird

octocombo · 2021-01-11T21:43:04+00:00

Now and in the past? There certainly are men who no woman will ever be attracted to. In the future? I fully expect that virtual/augmented reality capabilities within the next 200 years will get good enough that any man can relatively cheaply look attractive, regardless of his biology. (And I expect the next few centuries will create options for having fulfilling/realistic sex without a lot of the risks that sex currently has for women, which would make women less picky overall.) When everyone can look however they want, I doubt that physical attractiveness will play a significant role in sexual selection.

TheBookOfSeil · 2021-01-11T23:13:05+00:00

Yes. There will always be people who have to settle/make due with what they can get to survive, whether they be men or women.

John_Magnus · 2021-01-12T01:45:59+00:00

A lot of men, especially the lower ranks of men who become blackpilled, will not engage in self-improvement. So there will be little competition in that regard.

Sufficient-Ad-3586 · 2021-01-12T01:48:09+00:00

It’s a harsh truth of life that the more attractive you are, the easier run you will have.

I think plastic surgery shouldn’t be so stigmatized, if you truly are repulsively ugly than there’s nothing wrong with wanting to fix that.

WilliamWyattD · 2021-01-12T03:29:18+00:00

There is an absolute element and a comparative element to sexual attraction. The absolute element may ultimately be a comparative element across time, or it may actually have some intrinsically absolute dimension. At any rate, it is more fixed than the comparative factor.

The comparative aspect is probably more important in female attraction to men than vice versa, but both elements are present in male attraction to women.

One can assume that both aspects carry some weight at any time, but the relative influence of absolute vs. comparative at any given time is very hard to isolate and measure.

That said, given the above, extreme statements, such as the idea that if you made every man 10x as attractive in absolute terms it would have no effect, don't seem likely to be true. Furthermore, attraction is a continuum of values, so I'm not sure that the idea of 'zero attraction' or 'completely undesirable' makes sense.

That said, as to your question, we do not know. In nature, absolute factors likely make some women and men so unattractive that they can never be sufficiently desired by the opposite gender. Should we somehow be able to control absolute factors, then perhaps relative factors and female hypergamy would still make some % of men 'not make the grade' no matter how attractive in absolute terms. But this is very theoretical stuff that we really have to way to test. Consider also that male attractiveness compared to females themselves may even play a role in the equation; and that the male variability hypothesis predicts that the tail of male distribution in most things may be lower than the female tail. Hard stuff to quantify.

But returning to reality, the realities of hypergamy and male variability do seem to indicate that in any reasonable reality there will be a bottom end of the male attractiveness distribution that will be below the acceptable desirability threshold. And that this 'unfuckable' tier will be larger among men than women. A healthy, monogamous culture tries to keep the male 'unfuckable tier' reasonably small through a combination of managing female hypergamy so that it is at reasonable levels, and through cultural efforts to sustain and improve the absolute aspects of male attractiveness. That said, there is no hard science here. It's trial and error stuff.

deeredman1991 · 2021-01-12T04:27:40+00:00

Yes, because ultimately female attraction boils down to validation. Even if every man on earth was a Chad; women would still only want the Chadiest Chads because it's not about the Chad it's about showing her friends and family how attractive she is which she can only do if she can attract a high value man that other women want too.

YeetroyJenkins · 2021-01-12T04:40:47+00:00

Unpopular opinion (at least according to this sub) but you don't have to be conventionally attractive to find love. If dating were exclusive to attractive people, then most people wouldn't be getting into relationships, getting married, having kids.

Obesity is considered a conventionally unattractive trait, yet 40% of young adults aged 20-39 are obese, and i'm pretty sure most of them have been in a relationship or are currently dating. Even short guys, fat guys, ugly guys, old guys past their prime are dating. And if you think i'm full of shit, then look around and see all of the couples who are dating.

superlurkage · 2021-01-12T21:33:49+00:00

And women. But you don’t care about them

Also, just because someone will stick their dick in a woman doesn’t mean she’s desired

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Mustbeaight · 2021-01-11T21:39:11+00:00

Yeah

Bandit174 · 2021-01-11T21:39:32+00:00

Generally yes, but I'd be curious to see what would happen if we could go the route of designer babies i.e. if we could garantee that all men were born with conventionally desirable genes. So essentially if all men were tall, fit, facially symetric, well wndowed ect.. would it improve sexual equality or would women still find some minute difference to be hyper picky over.

However if we never go that route and keep the variation we have now then yeah certain men will always be undesirable/inferior.

Extremely__Moderate · 2021-01-11T22:00:11+00:00

Yes. This is the design. I believe I read somewhere more men have died without re-producing than have reproduced.

QuenchlessGato · 2021-01-11T23:35:24+00:00

Of course, that's how genetics work. Even if we take the infamous 20/80 numbers and suppose that the remaining 80% evolves to be on comparable level to the top 20%, then there is still enough variability, enough edge to push the bar even further up, leaving everyone else still below this threshold.

Telling men to improve themselves is a fool's errand because this turns into a rat race where there will always be losers no matter what.

superwaluigiworld2 · 2021-01-11T23:53:38+00:00

My problem with this thinking is that it treats all female desire as identical. It may be conventional wisdom that a broad, tall, muscular physique is attractive, and the majority of women may even conform to this. But for some women it’s a neutral quality and for others it’s an active turn-off. Ditto all other normatively masculine qualities.

There definitely will always be some people “left on the dance floor,” but no one is predestined for that fate as so many redpillers seem to want to believe. Even the weakest, scrawniest guy around might not be the weakest, scrawniest guy your potential mate has ever met, and they might have other priorities besides how big and strong you are. Luck, chance, and complex human social structures influence these things a lot more than a lot of people like to admit.

shoeboxone · 2021-01-12T00:01:54+00:00

Probably. Already happening in China.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4orQ0p788k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzkave_NKdk

Think4Yoself · 2021-01-12T01:38:25+00:00

Two things to consider. The Duc de Lauzun was a terribly ugly man but was able to seduce arguably the most eligible bachelorette on the face of the earth. Robert Pattinson had a stalker who would wait outside his residence for him. One day he walked up to her and casually asked her out on a date. He spent the entire date bitching about his life and how miserable he was. He never heard from her again.

Women's attraction is different than men's in that they are attracted to strength, confidence, and security, which ugly men can provide. Being physically attractive is certainly a positive factor for men, but it isn't the deal breaker you're implying it is. The percentage of men that will always be inherently undesirable are the ones that are weak, not the ones that are ugly.

wtknight · 2021-01-12T02:30:51+00:00

All kinds of women start out being attracted to some boy band quality man as a teenager and end up with an average guy who they're still attracted enough to have sex with and eventually have children with him. This is because women attracted to more than just looks in men, and even with looks they like the physical features enough of the men who they end up with that they can look past the fact that the guy doesn't look physically perfect like their original boy band crush.

hallucinatronic · 2021-01-12T02:39:50+00:00

80% of women reproduce while 60% of men do, so, yes.

nomadunkown · 2021-01-12T02:41:39+00:00

No. Advancements in plastic surgery will have us all walking around like chads and stacy’s. I think that will mostly solve the desirability part. When that happens the focus might move more to resources.

KillingtheMonster · 2021-01-12T03:03:44+00:00

I mean yeah but in a LTR one can get emptied frequently. And yes, this is also why sex workers exist and should be legal.

_Anarchon_ · 2021-01-12T03:39:55+00:00

...will a certain percentage of men always be inherently undesirable?

Yes.

Does that mean that there's nothing these men can do to get laid?

No.

I find that the biggest problem most of the incels on here suffer from is their mindset. People are perfectly capable of changing their mindset, but I find that most incels actively refuse to.

SUEDE2BLACK · 2021-01-12T04:04:00+00:00

The problem with this philosophy is what do women find attractive height seems to be the only definitive.But sexual attraction seems to be far more vague in women than men and it might not even matter.

My ex wasn't attracted to me and I doubt she ever was but she had something for me because I couldn't get rid of her I tried.

I think realistically most men will have to settle for a woman that isn't attracted to them and most women have to settle for a man they aren't attracted to.Men rarely settle for a woman they aren't attracted to so this falls on women they are the ones settling.

Women trade their beauty for resources and security in theory.

A woman doesn't have to be physically attracted to have sex to enjoy it maybe but just having it no,for many it's just a job.Think about how many ugly dudes a hooker has fcked.

TwoFirmFeet · 2021-01-12T10:53:47+00:00

“All of it is pointless...

If you dont believe in yourself”

New-Idea-7061 · 2021-01-12T11:44:47+00:00

I had a conversation with another poster here on a different post, he was talking about having less men in the future and basically designer male babies with good genes(I don't really agree with that part). But I'm starting to see his point about having less men, no more suffering for the countless lonely men.

I think it would be great if the world becomes more automated and almost all jobs are done by robots. Human population would probably go down naturally as many people in the developing world would see no reason to continue to have so many kids. This in my view might lessen the misery of millions of men.

Shirley_Schmidthoe · 2021-01-12T11:46:58+00:00

Yet many of those completely unattractive males are still married and have reproduced so apparently it doesn't work that way.

Also:

like the super charming handsome 5'2" guy or the ugly guy with a big dick and wide shoulders

This ”tall and wide shoulders" talk is as silly as large breast talk; it's a stereotype, not reality.

The truth of the matter is that many high-selling male and female models lack all of that because it's a dumb stereotype and though some care, the majority simply doens't.

Scarlett Johansen doesn't have particularly large breasts; James McAvoy doesn't have particularly broad shoulders

zerofeetpersecond · 2021-01-12T11:58:29+00:00

The problem isn’t the bar being too high for men, it’s the bar being too low for women. Society is happy to shit on men at the bottom while praising women at the bottom.

jdobrila · 2021-01-12T12:23:25+00:00

Yes, that is literally how hypergamy works.

hypothememe · 2021-01-12T17:40:19+00:00

The thing is not everyone will ever actually try.. so just by putting in the effort to improve yourself, even if your coming from very low, you will by definition stand out cause so many men arent improving.

So you stand out by being above average in either natural attractive qualities you Were born with, or more effort than the other guys in improving.. the insanely top level guys do both. But either way if you Stand out with 1 out of 2 of those you’ll do better than the average guy, because to repeat, it’ll never happen that everyone puts in the effort.

Its like sports athleates or musicians. Hard work beats natural talent every time (ask any Coach or pro-musician), but the legends are the ones who combine both

Zonkey_Zeedonk · 2021-01-13T01:52:20+00:00

I think what is rarely taken into consideration is that that “extreme lower end” of attractiveness exists in women as well as men.

For both men and women, being extremely undesirable makes it harder to find a partner. In the case of both, you can either give up and embrace solitude, or you can try (as you mentioned). Be social, find ways to stand out, work on your confidence. Extremely undesirable people who choose the second option may still end up alone, but more likely they’ll find someone. It’s just numbers: even if only (say) 5% of the population will find you attractive, if you’re social and meet enough people and don’t give up you’ll find that folks from that 5% eventually. Most people don’t die alone, even undesirable ones.

I don’t think it’s that extremely unattractive women are more likely to end up partnered because men have lower standards, I think it’s because there’s more social and biological pressure on women to be partnered: old single women aren’t “bachelorettes” they’re “spinsters,” and if women want kids they have to find a way before they’re too old. They’re just less likely to give up and so try harder. Men who do the same don’t die alone. Doesn’t mean they’ll marry a supermodel just because they tried hard, but they’ll find someone.

nojuanatall · 2021-01-13T03:06:17+00:00

I think the men who do not stand a chance no matter what they do are closer to the 1% buuuut at the same time, a majority of "unfuckable right now but can get good results with improvement" is either too lazy to make an effort or the effort they have to make is too much for them to feel enough motivation. I mean, if you go to the gym, become a millionaire through your unique talents that revolutionize the world in some way, and also develop huge charisma, you have to be veeeeery ugly to not get laid... but how many people are going to achieve so many drastic changes?

As someone very short and simultaneously sexually ambitious, I just decided that I will go into self-improvement, but only focus on those things that I enjoy that happen to make me more attractive. That way, if self-improvement fails in giving me the sex life I want, at least my life will be better in other areas.

moneygang4life · 2021-01-14T15:46:00+00:00

Maybe women need to just suck it up and realize that a lot of them are worth these men for marriage. 🤷‍♂️

Davidfosford · 2021-01-12T00:03:58+00:00

just like how a certain percentage of women always be inherently unsuitable for marriage

peachycreaam · 2021-01-12T04:18:26+00:00

The hell.. there are a multitude of ways men can become attractive to women without having a traditionally attractive face or body. Unattractive women are fucked unless they win the lottery and can fix their face or badbuilt body.

And anyway, most beautiful women love ugly men. The uglier the man, the more she will be pedestalized. Many women would rather have a pedestal than the physically sexiest man. Have you not seen the 50-11 posts on Reddit where women talk about preferences? They always full of “muscles and sharp jawlines are a turn off, I like a chubby guy with crumbs in his beard”.

ivy176 · 2021-01-14T03:17:17+00:00

I know people with no teeth who need full assistance and a hoist to get into their wheelchair, who can barely move, who communicate by typing, and who have poor hygiene by choice who still have girlfriends, so.

Title	Taking biological sexual attraction to its natural end, will a certain percentage of men always be inherently undesirable?
Author	existentialdreamland
Upvotes	79
Comments	213
Date	January 11, 2021 9:08 PM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/kvc5uk/taking_biological_sexual_attraction_to_its/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/taking-biological-sexual-attraction-to-its-natural.737728 https://theredarchive.com/post/737728

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