Putting the "nice guy" vs "jerk" vs "kind" debate to rest. [Part 1]

TinyTumbleweed553 · 2021-02-10T17:22:10+00:00

wish i had this a month ago...

mynameisgeneric2 · 2021-02-10T18:57:58+00:00

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caesarfecit · 2021-02-10T18:56:34+00:00

The real key to resolving the Chad/Chump complex is this:

Do not chase emotional intimacy or committment.

If she's into you, she'll chase that. Your priority should be having fun with her and exploring the sexual chemistry. That's what attractive guys do. If you want to be her friend, sit there and discuss her feelings. If you want to sleep with her, flirt with her.

Explore emotional intimacy when you're cuddling after sex, and even then be careful.

It's sad, because I wish advice like this wasn't necessary and we could just be real and normal with the opposite sex, but too many women have listened to the wrong advice and are ruthless when it comes to dating. She's too busy protecting herself to realize that she's playing herself.

veeeerain · 2021-02-10T21:36:29+00:00

I don’t even like to call them nice guys anymore they are just dumbasses. Like they don’t have common sense. Putting someone before urself is just the stupidest thing anyone can do, whether it be a man or a woman.

Jhadiro · 2021-02-10T21:09:56+00:00

Yeeeeessss! Exactly! I've been a nice guy for years! And while I get lots of praise and am told that any girl would be lucky to have me. None of that turns into reality, I've been cheated on by my fiancée, my dating life has been pretty vanilla, and overall I've never been able to truly speak my mind or get what I want for fear of breaking my nice guy facade.

I want to get to a point in life where I just don't care. I don't seek approval. I do what I want and say what I want. I don't care about negative reactions. I'm always changing my mind on things to suit other people's frame. Being loosey goosey with what matters to me in life is not something that I should be doing.

Currently I'm practicing breaking my nice guy persona. I've never shown hate or anger towards others in my life, but I'm working on just not liking people and not caring if they know that. I've been practicing saying polarizing things and not caring if people think I'm a dick or not.

It sounds like an extreme way to go about my change, but I need extreme! I've always hated conflict, everyone in my life has always liked me and have been friendly with me. But it's never taken any of my life relationships anywhere because I'm so agreeable and have a strong lack of my own personality due to trying to be liked by others.

People are drawn to others who have a strong sense of self and what they want. People who don't care what you think. The same is true for my own attraction. So working on being that person is my goal for 2021

Ducharbaine · 2021-02-10T21:00:05+00:00

Bonus note: girls want interactions with guys to be a fun experience. "Nice" is a bare minimum expectation of interaction with anyone at all. A "nice" guy brings nothing to the table and expects love for doing basically nothing. Its bland, its neutral, its dull. Not attractive. If the answer to "Who are you and why should I care?" is "nice" then you're going nowhere. If its "Whoever you want me to be" then you're actively repelling her.

letsgetrandy · 2021-02-10T18:15:49+00:00

Putting the debate to rest

If only it were that easy. Hah!

We see guys who we perceive as 'assholes' and 'jerks' drowning in attention from women while we're in high school and/or college.

In addition to the very good reasons you mentioned, these guys are perceived as assholes also because they tease. They playfully mock the girls they're interested in.

And of course, the biggest one of all: the perceived asshole frustrates girls, They don't just give in and give away their worth to a woman solely on the virtue of her being cute. They say "no". And what do frustrated girls do? THEY COMPLAIN!

The nice guy is always there, friendzoned by the side of the girl he has a crush on, listening to her go on about "why won't he this?" or "why is he so difficult that?" And our protagonist Nice Guy™ hears this as the Asshole™ is causing my beloved Princess™ distress... what a jerk! If only she could see how much I worship her and put her on a pedestal... I would NEVER treat her like that; never realizing that the reason she's not interested in him is exactly that: he would never do the things that turn her on.

chuckvsthelife · 2021-02-10T23:39:06+00:00

If you are being nice because you want something from someone, you are kinda being a dick. People (men or women) like people who are actually good people, they don't like people who treat them nice so they can get what they want and get upset when their "niceness" doesn't result in their desired outcome.

The whole nice guy platitude is actually guys who are kinda dicks.

Grallmab · 2021-02-10T18:43:19+00:00

This post puts into words what Patrice O'neal used to talk about, search 'Patrice O'neal relationship advice' on youtube to get the full picture

sevmumra · 2021-02-10T19:15:54+00:00

I don't get the 'Dont be friends with the girl you want to date' part. Would someone please help me with it?

SpaceMonkey159 · 2021-02-11T01:15:07+00:00

Yeah, if I am actually into a woman. I end up that pathetic simp turd myself still. However if I view a woman as an actual friend and treat her as I would treat my brothers (you know joking around being myself a little goofy, talking to them like a people's (Yes I know how that was written)). Those women tend to crush on me and tell other women what an awesome guy I am and hot etc. I just need to see the women I actually want in that same damn way. Sooo that being said thank you OP I am currently working on myself and focusing on myself so here is hoping my way of talking to women will follow suit.

Incidentally this also works for women I think are unobtainable or out of my league because I sort of say fuggit and act like myself. The problem is as soon as they show interest the little bitch hiding in the corner runs out with his dick in his hand and his heart on his shoulder and fucks it all up.

pikecat · 2021-02-10T23:00:10+00:00

This is both true and untrue. Every person, every woman is a completely different person than another. Every relationship is different than another. If all of your experiences are the same it's probably a reflection on you.

I have been both nice and bad. Nice, except for the cheesy parts. When I was bad it was not because I was bad, but because I was confident and didn't need anything so I was not worried about how I acted. I carried myself differently and could be dangerous in how I spoke. In this mode it's easy to see all women as similar and interchangeable, and be jaded.

When you are nice, and have female friends, sometimes these can become relationships or they change through time. These were much more deep and meaningful relationships and with different kinds of women than when you are bad.

While it was great fun and you can get with many girls when you are 'bad,' I think the relationships that you can have when nice can be better and with better women.

Admittedly, my nice wasn't as cheesy as OP's and being bad was some of the most exciting times I ever had, at the time, but after the fact it was meaningless and a bit of a waste of time. At the time it was addictive.

Be friends with girls, don't be a pushover, be genuine, but don't wait on or expect anything from any particular one. Sometimes one might want to sleep with you, it does happen.

These words are not exactly how I wanted to characterize this, but I don't want to write a wall of text. This is just my experience with being naughty and nice.

IronxXXLung · 2021-02-10T22:18:10+00:00

Why would being a "Nice Guy" cause a girl who never loved you to marry you for 15 years? Or why would it lead a girl to cheat on you? If she got together with you, you would think she likes the "Nice Guy" thing. Genuinely Curious. I'm kind and considerate but do not put them on a pedestal. I was cheated on but was that just by chance? Is it possible to be to stable?

ShinbrigGoku · 2021-02-11T01:29:05+00:00

can I say that I prefer this subreddit more than r/relationship_advice because here things are explained a lot more clearly and there's less bullshit??!

metrosuccessor2033 · 2021-02-11T04:19:40+00:00

Damn bro. That’s deep. I’m glad I’m an asshole. Even though I don’t think I am. I’ve been told I was rude as hell by women, but I always thought I was being honest and speaking my mind.

Nowadays, putting myself first and working on myself, like my body, intelligence, social skills, aspirations, hobbies etc is my number one priority and it’s what I put on a pedestal. I’ve realized that when I’m “overthinking” about a woman, I think of myself and what the future “better” me will look like, and it works. It fucking works.

I’m seeing results, and I’m so happy. I still have things to work on because that random thought from that one girl comes up, and I can’t help it. But it’s really just me only getting attention from that one singular woman, and no one else.

Don’t worry bro’s. I’ll be a stud in no time. Y’all should too. Love yourself some. Go to the fucking gym.

AloneMap6855 · 2021-02-10T22:49:51+00:00

The most common conversation I remember hearing and having as a male back in the day (18-25) was one that went like " Why is it the girls I don't care about are the ones that are really into me, and the ones I try with are harder to get....or why was she more in to me when we first got together but once I developed feelings she pulled away?" The answer was always because guys prioritise and pedestal these girls , which turns them off massively and leads to rejection . When a girl is unsure about your feelings for her , if you haven't validated her , she will be far more attracted to you.

midnight_toker22 · 2021-02-10T22:42:34+00:00

Being nice is simply not a quality that will endear you to women. At least not romantically/sexually.

RocketMan6c · 2021-02-10T23:58:29+00:00

OMG OP, I needed to hear this. I've been conditioned by society into being the nice guy cause I thought that was best way to show you care about a woman you want to have LTR with. I've been trying really hard to ditch this mindset and actions and get back into being your definition of an "asshole". I care too much inside and it has gotten me no where. I've almost lost my mind not understanding why can't get any traction with women I like since I check off all boxes that society says is valuable in a male partner. Thank you for encouragement that its not wrong. Hard when you have big heart. Been on 4 year single streak cause of this. I've heard someone meet and go out with later tell me I was too "genuine". Was really confusing cause always hear women saying they want a genuine man.... wish we didn't have to play these games per say.

J_Want98 · 2021-02-10T22:52:11+00:00

I understand what you're saying but there's one thing that is literally never mentioned in these kind of discussions and I truly do not understand why. That thing is physical attractiveness!!! I'm 22, still a virgin and haven't had my first kiss yet. I'm not the best looking guy in the world and that's the one thing that seems like it can't be overcome when it comes to girls, once they've decided they're not physically attracted to u then that's game over!! It doesn't matter how much u work out, how u dress or how confident u are when chatting and it definitely doesn't matter if u play the nice guy role or if you're an ass hole. Your physical appearance is the decisive detail no matter what and I've personally seen no evidence to suggest that this can be overcome...

(Which is totally fine btw, totally up to them!)

CuriosityNJ · 2021-02-10T19:46:14+00:00

Don’t forget that the ”nice guy” often feels that the woman will reciprocate (often with sex), although it was never communicated. The lack of verbal communication is usually his downfall

Plebe-Uchiha · 2021-02-10T22:19:43+00:00

Say it louder for the people in the back!!! [+]

dzoya1266 · 2021-02-10T22:35:22+00:00

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hnueNG05 · 2021-02-10T23:48:21+00:00

Nice guy here and fully 100% agree with OP. IMO being nice is to respect people and treat them how you like to be treated, not worship the person you have a crush on!!

uhhsamurai · 2021-02-11T00:29:37+00:00

Homie speaking facts

Grrizzzlee · 2021-02-11T02:38:04+00:00

The moral of the story is don't be a nice guy or a bad guy but be a GENTLEMAN, treat people how they deserve to be treated. Don't be mean to someone without any reasons and if they give u reasons unleash the hell upon them.

FlanneryODostoevsky · 2021-02-10T19:10:59+00:00

This Will never be put to rest. Ive been with older women, and frankly have much more luck with them, and one told me its a shame how girls are conditioned to accept being mistreated. She said this after I told her I was being turned on by her and I building a connection. This kind of thing, what I am saying as well as what you are saying, is not flatly true across the board.

Moreover, who complains of the world being too kind? Who really feels like the world is fair or easy? What a nice guy is trying to do is recognize the way women are treated and do the opposite.

The biggest problem is they choose the wrong ones. So I dont agree at all really, especially since this characterization of what "assholes" are is way too blithe and perhaps even naive. The assholes are far worse and do far more than what you feel is normal shit. Likewise, nice guys aren't just hoping for sex. Thats projection. Nice guys would be far better aided by being encouraged to just let go of a woman that doesn't want to be with them or so much as return any kind of affection. Once they start doing that, they can also see they have gifts as a guy that shouldnt be wasted on women stuck in their ways.

Spikael_Michael · 2021-02-10T23:41:23+00:00

how do you just cut girls off that you want to be with?

laggerzback · 2021-02-11T04:29:34+00:00

Yeah I don’t agree with what the OP is saying here. First of all, the Machiavellian/Chauvinism thing isn’t normal. And it’s still a pretty bitter outlook on the whole nice guy/asshole dichotomy here.

Here’s the real truth. Neither Nice Guy or Asshole get meaningful relationships and showing your ass doesn’t always work, especially if you aren’t good in the looks department.

So I’ll point out what I’ve learned about nice guys problems, assholes problems, what I do agree with the OP on (but would put at a different perspective) and disagree with:

The reason why Nice Guys get dropped:

1) They’re either being fake, or they’re only being nice because they think they’re entitled to a reward. This is because they were taught all their life that good deeds are always rewarded. Which is not true. It’s setting you go out of your way for because you feel empathy for someone.

Kindness is a good virtue and while showing that you are that sweetheart can actually help attract certain people to you, the issue is that your intentions must always be genuine and natural to you.

2) The “showering unwanted attention” part is more the fact that you’re suffocating a person. Like anyone, if you’re being smothered by someone 24/7, you’re going to want a break. That doesn’t mean you’re going to cheat on someone. That’s honestly more rare and only happens if you’re dating someone who was just looking for some dick or they needed a sugar daddy and some thrill to seek. Most cases, a person with dignity and respect will tell you straight: it ain’t working out.

3) FRIENDS Cue the theme, coz there’s some shit to cover here. First off, you have to consider what type of “friend” you’re talking about here. Coz there’s three types here: the fake friend that likes to weasel their way in your pants, the friend that does or does not become something more, and the friend with benefits. Most cases with nice guys, the friendship is not genuine. They use the friendship thing because they think it’ll guarantee a relationship. Then there’s the guys who do admit they like their friend but don’t want to jeopardize their relationship if the feeling is not mutual. Mad respect there. Some count that outcome a loss, but sometimes having a friend who’s the opposite sex can help you with another relationship. But that’s another convo altogether. But if the outcome is good, you will have more of a meaningful relationship than most others do in their lifetimes. You can be friends with someone and have a really good relationship, but that depends on the type of person you’re looking for. More on that later.

Finally there’s that rare “friends with benefits” thing. It’s more a mutual agreement that you’re not interested in a relationship but you’re ok with having a mutual partner. Those don’t last long though.

4) Love Goggles: people think objectifying women is seeing them as sex toys or something and that’s not exactly true. OP did point out that one thing: “she’s a goddess and must be revered. O, my object of my love! Doth divine beauty radiates on mine dark, decrepit life!” Gotta treat women like they’re the protagonist of every Tyler Perry film and play, right? WRONG! Whether it’s you not keeping your dick in your pants, or putting her on a pedestal, you’re not treating them like who they are: a mere human being.they have their shit to do in life, and so do you. Stop it. Approach her like you’d approach a friend, co-worker, etc. I know it’s hard and you probably got social anxiety or something. But the worst thing someone can say to you is no. Move on if they do.

5) You’re too shallow. There. I said it. You’re here trying to chase models for so meaningful relationship when your match is sitting there right next to you. You complain about the friend zone when you’re friend zoning the one who’s been your ride or die bitch from day one. Get ahold of yourself.

6) You don’t look good in the looks department. Yeah you may not be easy on the eyes but you can make yourself presentable. Work on making yourself look good, just like you would for a job interview, and that boosts your charisma. Don’t believe me? The late Notorious B.I.G was one fat as hell dude and he still got people after him. If he can do it. You can too. Also a shoutout to #5. Don’t go talking “I don’t like fat women” when you need to work on losing weight yourself.

Now for the assholes: For one, no, the whole nature isn’t “normal” and women won’t normally flock to you either. If you got good looks, maybe you can get away with some things, but that ain’t a guarantee. People envy them, but fail to realize they only attract that one type of person: And that’s the thrill seeker. Thrill seekers, or what y’all call hoes, want one thing. Just like our assholes. Someone who wants a meaningful relationship doesn’t want to deal with that person and doesn’t have time for games.

Assholes want one thing and one thing only. And they’ll tell it to you whether you like it or not. Again. Those relationships aren’t meaningful because they only want to fool around. They prioritize themselves and are self serving. And their narcissism isn’t normal behavior because they’re too absorbed in themselves. Sure, be like that if you like, but you’re not going anywhere in life like that.

Rather, this is what you should do:

1) Work on your self image and self esteem. The more you take care of yourself and make yourself look good, that makes people really drawn to you.

2) be honest with yourself. If there’s one thing you can learn from assholes, it’s to be honest. If you are looking just to get laid, find people who just want that. Go to a club or something. If you’re looking for a more longer term relationship, find places that have those people. Coz there’s two types of people in the dating world : those that wanna have fun and those who want a meaningful companion. Find out what you want and look for those people.

3) Find the best approach that works for you. If you are old fashioned and like someone, get to know them, their friends and family, and understand them more. If you’re a flirt, use that (wisely)

Anyway, g’night.

Sarahktty · 2021-02-10T23:34:15+00:00

As a woman, yes! Thank you!! I love this post. I will say there are some women that do want to be fawned over and put on a pedestal, or at least they say they do. But that is definitely not me. I have my own career, life, and interests. I do not want to be put on a pedestal. I’m just a regular person. I want to be treated as an equal, and for you to be respectful and interesting, communicate well, and obviously attraction comes into play as well. But physical looks are only one component of attraction, as I think was mentioned somewhere above. Voice, demeanor, personality, smell, lifestyle etc. all play into attraction, at least to me.

Theuser758 · 2021-02-10T23:04:19+00:00

So how can I change then. I’m not on the far side of the nice guy spectrum were all I do is worship women, but I am deffo too nice to women in my opinion. So how can I change this and create that desire for me?

bboyFred21 · 2021-02-10T19:26:55+00:00

The only thing that matters for women is physical attractiveness. The rest is secondary.

Personality gets you to the door, you won't go that far if you don't have the looks though.

TiedHands · 2021-02-10T23:54:06+00:00

This is all such bullshit. The messaging is so mixed with this topic that its impossible to figure out what women actually want. They say they want a guy that is kind, then they say you're too much of a "nice guy" (in a bad way). So you drop your guard and toughen up and loosen up and bit and now you're an asshole. There's no way to win this issue. I consider myself genuinely a nice guy, in that I speak nicely to people, show respect, etc., im not some m'lady white knight guy. A lot of my women friends have told me directly that they prefer dating actual assholes because they see them as a project that they can "fix".

DefiniteSterling · 2021-02-11T03:09:01+00:00

Fuck that! I'm nice because I like to be nice, though I have learned the lesson.

Playing charades and games is no fun and being a dick on purpose to get action is just as dumb. Like, "Hey 'nice guys', here's a better way of manipulating yourself, and your potential partner, into getting solely what YOU want... AND you get to be a complete prick about it." Who does that sing to??? The fucking Patriarchy. Stop producing awful people man. Think about how these guys treat other men for starters. And the elderly. Anyone they don't find attractive. Kids?

Guys, please don't go into the world as a bonified POS to get laid. People do the same thing to make money and we got enough of them already.

BrainAlert · 2021-02-11T03:16:28+00:00

Just be good looking and rich. That will fix 90%of your problems.

assortedchaos · 2021-02-11T05:46:12+00:00

It’s hilarious how women are alway the first ones to comment and endorse such posts. We all know you’re attracted to good looking guys who treat you like shit. Stop trying to find justifications for it lol.

_Dignity_ · 2021-02-12T21:06:41+00:00

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euphmil · 2021-02-10T18:08:40+00:00

Thank you, I needed this

2021-02-11T01:18:22+00:00

“Nice guy’s finish last. Only aggressive people conquer the world”

“you gotta be assertive to get the things you want”

-Sheldon J. Plankton.

Rich-roy · 2021-02-11T03:27:39+00:00

This is one of the best posts I've seen man. I just want to go on the record and point this out. The word 'nice guy' is used to actually mean a guy was actually nice and pleasant to be around. I consider myself a nice guy cuz I do like helping people out and showing value here and there. But now it's at a point where being a 'nice guy' actually means being a pushover who's not direct with what he wants, bends over his boundaries just to have other people in his life, and having no values you feel about strongly. It's like just saying the word 'nice' has become a negative buzz term. I'd definitely want to turn this around one day, be the nice guy who's direct and goes after what he wants, makes his intentions clear, and not accept friendship if he truly wants more with a woman. All comes down to knowing what you want. But you covered the whole "be an asshole thing" really well, describing some "asshole" behaviour as actually normal behaviour, so I rate that

omanisherin · 2021-02-11T03:32:20+00:00

You forgot to mention nice guys #1 character flaw: covert contracts. Or, because I did all these nice things for her, she should be romantically interested in me. Which is not how it works. There is a book, no more Mr. Nice guy. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_More_Mr._Nice_Guy_(book) read, would recommend:

whatskeeping · 2021-02-11T04:00:34+00:00

Such good advice Thank you

rad_dynamic · 2021-02-11T04:39:47+00:00

I’m definitely in need of part 2 hahah

BraboFox1480 · 2021-02-11T05:08:13+00:00

Great advice. Just wish it came about 10 years sooner.

2021-02-11T05:12:06+00:00

I know that being nice isn’t gonna land me being laid. Thats common sense. Being nice and not cheating is the BARE MINIMUM. I know that. And im sure most of these nice guys you speak of know this too. I agree with the post but idk I guess i don’t like being grouped with assholes. A guy wanting sex for being nice and get triggered then insult the woman when rejected is a asshole..Not a nice guy. Thats not what i do anyway. I know that i need to build more confidence and i need to realize my worth. This is what guys need to know. Its the self pity that’s unattractive. Bring feckless. Im learning to love myself and be more courageous. Thats what i find attractive in women and I’m sure they do too.

swagnake · 2021-02-11T07:50:06+00:00

Actually in the end, the only thing that matters is attraction. If you are attractive and how you behave and treat women made them feel attracted to you, you will succeed, regardless of being a jerk or a gentleman

MakeSail · 2021-02-11T08:12:24+00:00

Who is the target audience for this advice?

The advice seems to target men who are emotionally immature. Is this the intent?

For example with the statement:

"Don't be that guy; drop the social conditioning."

If you are emotionally mature "social conditioning" will not drive your needs or behavior.

Etoile67gp · 2021-02-11T09:08:59+00:00

Nice guys are nice to a woman because they want sex from her and will do anything to get it. That isn’t nice... it’s pathetic and manipulative.

Don’t put a woman on a pedestal and worship her. She doesn’t deserve it.

-Don’t agree with everything she says just because you think it’s a way into her panties.

Don’t do everything she tells you to do or you think she wants you to do just because you want to fuck her.
Décide beforehand what you’re going to do with her as fun activities then tell her we’re going to do X together. Don’t hesitate. Be decisive.

-Don’t send her loads of text messages wondering what she’s up to and why she hasn’t replied to you yet. Give her some space. Let her come to you.

Tell her you’ll be there for her to help/ support her then let her come to you.
finally make her feel safe and happy with you. But don’t grovel to her and beg her for affection. She has to put in what you put in.
be yourself. Don’t put on an act or play ‘game’. That shows a lack of self esteem. She’ll see through it. Be a good man, honest, and fun and with boundaries.

CleanWholesomePhun · 2021-02-11T15:16:51+00:00

I'm gonna sum this up so people don't have to deal with a multi-part post

Doing generous things from a position of power without expectation is merciful and kind and attractive. Doing generous things from an inferior position hoping that these actions will boost you in some way is subservient, pathetic, and slimy.

Casanova-Quinn · 2021-02-11T15:21:34+00:00

Great post, lots of good points.

One thing I'll add is that a lot of guys fall into the faulty "nice/jerk" mentality because they don't understand what girls are communicating. When girls say "nice" they don't actually mean dictionary "nice", they mean boring, timid, and/or passive. The man behaves too much like a friend, not enough like a lover. The man needs to flirt and make moves, not just make her laugh and have good conversation.

GitGud_Pirates_Inc · 2021-04-26T02:13:05+00:00

Buy "No more Mr. Nice Guy" on Amazon

Title	Putting the "nice guy" vs "jerk" vs "kind" debate to rest. [Part 1]
Author	_Dignity_
Upvotes	664
Comments	199
Date	February 10, 2021 4:22 PM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/seduction
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/seduction/comments/lgx7pl/putting_the_nice_guy_vs_jerk_vs_kind_debate_to/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/seduction/putting-the-nice-guy-vs-jerk-vs-kind-debate-to.1428376 https://theredarchive.com/post/1428376

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