Men have right to seek justice after being falsely accused even if it has a Chilling effect..

Fair-Bus-4017 · 2024-08-14T10:18:07+00:00

After reading the first article (I aint gonna sign up to read the other one) I don't find it odd that these feminists make these points because they are valid. However this will not allow a fair trial to occur so I am strongly against it. And lets be real I don't see the justice system change because of these feminists.

And when it comes to this case, it is a bit fucked that he didn't get the chance to cross examine her on campus. But they are a private institution so they don't have to have the same standards as the court system. It would be nice but ultimately these may differ.

And to your post, we don't know if he got falsely accused. Just because he didn't get charged for the crime doesn't mean that it didn't occur. It just means that there wasn't enough evidence to charge him. Hence why he will most likely not win the defamation case.

Also lmao the cross examination that they stated in that article was fucking laughably bad.

alwaysright12 · 2024-08-14T10:20:26+00:00

How do you know he was falsely accused?

AngeCruelle · 2024-08-14T10:56:53+00:00

OP do you know the difference between allegations that have been proven false and allegations that cannot be proven beyond a reasonable doubt? Because that's pretty crucial here and often gets muddled in these conversations. This is a case of the latter, not the former based on the sources you presented.

"Beyond a reasonable doubt" is the standard that got OJ acquitted and at this point pretty much everybody knows he killed that woman.

NoDanaOnlyZuuI · 2024-08-14T11:53:49+00:00

Unless a woman confesses, how do you people a false accusation? A lot of women recant because they don’t want to keep retelling the story and be cross examined. Not because they weren’t raped.

januaryphilosopher · 2024-08-14T15:20:01+00:00

The issue here is that you are assuming an accusation is false just because it hasn't been proven true. Which means you are doing exactly the thing you are criticising, assuming people of things (lying or defamation) without proof (there is no evidence this person lied - indeed, on balance, they're generally telling the truth). Conviction rates for rape are very low and a lot of rapes go unproven, meaning there are loads of people who are telling the complete truth about being raped but don't have the right evidence for court or aren't believed or are simply intimidated out of taking the case further.

SaBahRub · 2024-08-14T13:12:46+00:00

And they can, as your example clearly shows

apresonly · 2024-08-14T19:00:01+00:00

how would you prove its a false accusation?

that would be the same problem victims have proving rape happened.

BluePillUprising · 2024-08-14T10:38:49+00:00

OP, I am 100% on board with due process and rights for the accused.

But your post is dripping with an “if men don’t get justice, they gonna have to take it” attitude.

And that’s kinda hard to take seriously.

Different_Cress7369 · 2024-08-14T09:48:59+00:00

When did men stop having the right to appeal? Somebody who has been wrongly convicted of a crime has always had this right. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wrongful_convictions_in_the_United_States Yes it’s wiki, but start your search from there and use the citations Also, people all have the right to protest and complain, that’s freedom of speech, and it is protected in your country.

TinyBlonde15 · 2024-08-14T14:43:50+00:00

No feminists are for false accusations. Feminists would like to address why 97% of actual rapists never see jailtime.

However I am glad someone is advocating for the falsely accused. It's extremely important for all crimes to actually find justice and not just what is most convenient or easy for the police and courts to do.

Go forth and advocate. I know a man who was falsely accused and I want those to go from a couple percent to zero very much. I'm just still very concerned about the 97 percent who are still walking around not worried about being punished for rape because they were not when they tortured someone previously. (Yes rape causes the same type of ptsd and mental trauma as torture. Please, any man who it has happened to back me up bc I'm concerned about being scoffed at or called overreacting for calling it torture unless a man who has been thru it can concur.)

MongoBobalossus · 2024-08-14T09:52:23+00:00

I don’t know where this idea that you have “due process rights in college” came from, but it’s stupid.

You only have due process rights in a criminal legal proceeding.

purplish_possum · 2024-08-14T10:31:12+00:00

Law isn't politics. It's not about sorting out all of societies problems. It's about fixing/redressing individual issues.

Trouvette · 2024-08-14T12:30:41+00:00

Colleges should not be in the adjudication business to begin with. If a crime happens, you have to go to the police. They are the only non-military example I can think of where your constitutional right go out the window.

Devourer_of_felines · 2024-08-14T17:20:48+00:00

Women’s rights advocates say that some students who file sexual abuse claims under Title IX could face a difficult choice. They could choose to forgo being cross-examined but open themselves up to defamation lawsuits. Or they could protect themselves from such lawsuits, but have to submit to an interrogation during these campus proceedings.

I don’t understand what the issue is; if you’re accusing someone of a heinous crime there should be due process even if feelings get hurt during cross examination.

Upset_Material_3372 · 2024-08-14T20:21:09+00:00

“it is better 100 guilty Persons should escape than that one innocent Person should suffer”

Falstaffe · 2024-08-24T07:37:33+00:00

It may not always be wise to insist on one's rights.

Here in Australia, there's a guy, Bruce Lehrmann, who was charged with rape. The trial was abandoned due to juror misconduct, and after the case was relisted for trial, the Director of Public Prosecutions dropped it. So, twice in succession, there was no verdict against Mr Lehrmann. He was free to go.

He sued a journalist and her employer for defamation on the grounds that, pre-trial, they alleged he committed the rape.

The defamation trial judge found that, on the balance of probabilities, Mr Lehrmann did commit the rape. The judge commented on the wisdom of Lehrmann bringing the defamation case with the words, "Having escaped the lion’s den, Mr Lehrmann made the mistake of coming back for his hat."

Mr Lehrmann had the right to bring a defamation case. It backfired.

I guess we'll see if something similar befalls the Yale student.

DennistheMenace__ · 2024-08-14T09:26:04+00:00

just know this is not the majority of feminists being like this. just the very loud few. as far as im aware most feminists actually want equality and arent like the feminists you talk about. that being said i do agree that no one should be punished just for accusations. innocent until proven guilty.

-Shes-A-Carnival · 2024-08-14T10:58:25+00:00

private colleges have no obligation to provide due process before an expulsion, it is a mere convention that they provide minimal due process at all really. he won, "feminists reactions" are just that, reactions

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harmonica2 · 2024-08-14T11:57:19+00:00

When it comes to guys being falsely accused, what causes the women to recant their accusal usually?

Particular_Trade6308 · 2024-08-14T17:07:24+00:00

My understanding is that a rape charge (woman is the accuser, man is defendant) has a presumption of innocence until proven guilty, and (in a courtroom) the standard is “beyond a reasonable doubt.” Sexual assault is murky so there will always be lots of actual rapes that do not mean the above standard and do not lead to a guilty verdict.

On the other hand, a charge of defamation (man is the accuser, woman is the defendant) also has guilty until proven innocent, and beyond a reasonable doubt. The prosecution must show intent to defame, must show that harm was done, etc. You can’t sue people for slander just because they called you a name for this reason, it’s quite a high bar.

So I’m with OP, I don’t think there’s a chilling effect here. It would be very difficult to show malicious intent in a defamation suit claiming false rape accusation. The majority of these kinds of suits would go nowhere unless the man could produce evidence like the woman texting her friends “that asshole cheated on me, I’m gonna tell everyone he’s a rapist.”

If the danger here is that women will have to stand in court for frivolous suits, doesn’t that danger already exist for men? You can get dragged through the mud currently for a rape accusation even if it’s tossed in court.

cast-away-ramadi06 · 2024-08-16T03:11:04+00:00

I'm actually surprised that more men don't seek extra judicial justice in these circumstances.

Mentathiel · 2024-08-14T11:26:09+00:00

This issue is very complex and you're boiling it down to feminists bad.

Should colleges be running a parallel legal system like this? Personally, I find it weird and redundant. But on the other hand, they are private businesses and as long as they're not discriminating against protected characteristics, they should be able to choose their clients. This isn't just about rape or harassment. Can you expel someone who yells in front of a classroom every day? Cheats on exams multiple times? Is belligerent and disrespectful to staff? There's a lot of legal things someone can do that would be annoying and ruin others' impressions of college and your employees' days. So it makes sense to put some committee in place to oversee these things. But we quickly get into the teritorry of illegal things also being under review then. Do you want someone going around giving under 21s alcohol at your college for instance? Idk, it's weird honestly.

And then on top of that, if we were to agree that colleges should be able to run these parallel legal systems, at what point is expelling you a breach of contract? I'm sure they write their contracts cleverly so they can expel you for any bs. If it's a breach of contract, they should have to pay you back scholarship. And arguably not just for that year, since all of your investment is void unless you get a degree. But if the contract is written so that they can expel you without consequences, and you signed the contract, then that's legally binding and kind of a you problem. But also there's a social issue of Universities, especially large famous Unis, having a lot of power and you not having that much choice to go shopping for contract clauses, especially since they're going to be the same. Should there be some low or should students unionize to pressure colleges to write contracts a little bit more in their favor? You'd hardly get a lot people to support that probably because the vast vast majority of people are entirely unaffected by this and kind of look down at those who are affected as "probably deserving", so Idk how to even mobilize public support around this issue. Plus, it's mostly men affected, which people tend to have less empathy for.

That all being said, there's another huge problem. Rape is incredibly hard to convict. For a good reason, evidence of rape is virtually the same as a consensual act - sex. A rape kit cannot prove rape, it can be evidence that sex occurred, but even injury can be from a consensual encounter. In a lot of cases, it's just one testimony against the other, and that's just not "beyond a reasonable doubt". And that should probably still remain the legal standard, it's very unfortunate that that's the nature of the crime, but we don't want to jail innocents because of this. That being said, you have to admit that that will mean that A LOT of rapists go free. Most are never accused, of those who are majority are not charged, of those who are many are not convicted. That doesn't mean they're all innocent, it just means it's very hard to prove beyond a reasonable doubt contents of an encounter in private between two people when the only physical evidence tends to be the same as evidence of sex. The only difference between sex and rape is their state of mind at the moment. And you have no witnesses, no recordings, no anything. At best, you'll have a couple of confused text messages after and maybe therapists notes and an assessment by a forensic psychologist. This is shaky ground for "beyond a reasonable doubt" even if rape had occurred.

Knowing that, we can understand that colleges don't want to preside oven an environment full of rapists living together with their victims and going to class every day together. And that's what you are doing almost certainly if you rely on criminal convictions only. But as a business, you don't want a reputation as a rape den. You don't want your students to feel unsafe daily.

Personally, I don't know what the solution is. I agree accusers should not be protected against defamation suits in current circumstances, but I understand the concern of the feminists. Most rapists are getting away with it already and this will just cause it to be more. False accusations are rare. But I also understand as a man how scary it would be to tip the scales to allow false accusations easily, as women can and would weaponize them and destroy people's lives.

I don't know, it seems to me that as a society we have not settled on what we think about the problem of rape and it requires more discussion. It seems like all sides have valid points. Rapists are getting away with it. So are the false accusers. Victims in both cases are getting the short end of the stick. And it seems like those two types of victims are pitted against each other. Getting more of the perpetrators of one kind causes more of the perpetrators of the other to get away. I wish there was an out of the box solution which benefits both kinds of victims. But I don't see it.

MyUpSeemsDown · 2024-08-14T10:48:45+00:00

I dk where you hailed from, I myself was surrounded by feminist adjacent girls literally watching Depp vs Herd together daily, where they did nothing but shit on Herd, what a karma. And while I fucking hate using internet as the example, it seems pretty overwhelmingly majority that people thought Herd was shitting the bed.

That being said, false allegation with intent to antagonize the character if proven, should definitely be criminal and it already is in some countries, South Korea for example. But it also should never be unavailable because there are terrible people out there and not everyone's just lying.

obviousredflag · 2024-08-15T08:08:22+00:00

Where exactly do you get the idea from, that this is directed at MEN? As far as i understand, the same rule apply to women.

A_real_keeper_LOL · 2024-08-15T01:45:25+00:00

I have the most unpopular opinion ever on this…. Let’s stop treating rape like it’s worse than murder. We act like rape is the worst thing in the world that can happen to someone… it’s not.

Slightly off topic: I’ve been sexually assaulted multiple times by women in my life, and it’s not a big deal and nobody made it a big deal.

Consistent-Swing5396 · 2024-08-14T17:26:39+00:00

Amber deserve every support she get.

fuyasurieki · 2024-08-14T23:31:51+00:00

Nonviolently destroy their lives.

KissMyAsthma-99 · 2024-08-16T20:55:55+00:00

Feminists will never, ever, ever, argue in favor of any situation that has the potential to harm women, even if it would promote true equality for men. The goal of modern feminism is not equality, and there is no way that the movement will ever embrace such an ideal.

Your argument that men should have the rights to seek justice are absolutely correct, but you won't convince people who elevate women above men. Inevitably, they will validate the feminists arguments, even if they are inherently anti-equality.

Innocent_boi_77 · 2024-08-14T10:40:10+00:00

Capital punishment for false accusations of rape

Title	Men have right to seek justice after being falsely accused even if it has a Chilling effect..
Author	castironskilletset
Upvotes	66
Comments	406
Date	August 14, 2024 9:12 AM UTC (1 year ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1erwyzd/men_have_right_to_seek_justice_after_being/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/men-have-right-to-seek-justice-after-being-falsely.1527211 https://theredarchive.com/post/1527211

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