Is dating harder for men today (in general) than it used to be? Or are men today less motivated (in general) than they used to be?

gunbusterxl · 2019-09-27T21:26:45+00:00

It's all of the above.

Women don't have to rely on men anymore, so they select higher. They only choose men they want, not just men they need.
Thus, men have to put in more effort than ever before to qualify as desirable. If that's a good thing or bad thing is a topic that this subreddit argues about daily.
While women are choosier today, men are not. Male thirst hasn't changed in thousands of years, so many guys see dating as a double standard. If that's a good or bad thing is also a topic that this subreddit argues about daily.
Because men view dating as a double standard, and the rise of simply more shit to do in general, men have far less baseline motivation to even try. This gives rise to groups like MGTOW and incels.

There is no solution to this, or than throwing women back into domestic servitude. Maybe society will sort itself out somehow eventually, but it's going to take awhile.

mistresswhat · 2019-09-27T22:10:16+00:00

Shitty gig economy / workaholic culture that has large swaths of the population working themselves to death with little free time or fun money. When you have time off you're going to spend it with people you actually care about already (friends, family) or doing cheap leisure activities in the comfort of your own home (video games, netflix) and taking care of your sexual needs yourself (porn, vibrators).

This isn't gendered.

throwaway85176 · 2019-09-27T21:08:36+00:00

I think the bar has been raised so high by hypergamy that most men feel like they are not getting the type of women they deserve. Since girls are not looking to settle down till their SMV is so low they become undesirable to most men. (Post wall/kids/hard living/obese/old)

Chads out there banging tons of girls and rightfully so but back in the day women didn’t put up with this. They didn’t give out the pussy for free. They got married or had a single high school sweetheart. Now a days it’s hard for a guy in his early thirties of average wealth, looks, intelligence, wit to find a woman who is half decent in her late twenties to settle down with.

It’s a hard time to be average/ below average.

Back in the day you could work a factory job, buy a home , own 2 cars , have 2 kids , a pet and put those kids through college. Now you can barely afford your rented house /apartment.

TheJim66 · 2019-09-27T21:06:29+00:00

It is both harder and I would say men put more effort.Noone went to the gym or really cared about fashion 15 years ago.If we go further back ,even celebrities and famous actors had dadbods.

Nowadays men (as a group) do more than ever but still get shitty results.As usual I blame (mainly) social media for this.

Atlas_B_Shruggin · 2019-09-27T21:28:17+00:00

I think the extreme reliance on photography in online dating and increasing use of tinder has added a real barrier to men actually getting in front of women to seduce them/pick them up/meet them

ontherailstoday · 2019-09-28T00:18:05+00:00

Everyone is just more dopamine habituated than they used to be because the reward circuits of the brain are being poked more often and more easily than ever before. Being dopamine habituated makes things that aren't steady sources of dopamine really hard asks. Women seem to be better able to cope with that while having a life and getting shit done, idk how, could be because we're adapted to breastfeed which does tend to involve regular dopamine surges and also having to be functional and socially integrated.

Also worth noting, I've never known a woman to become a serious masturbation addict or gaming addict. I mean sure it does happen and when it does it makes the news because usually a baby starves to death... but everyone knows at least a couple of guys who game, or wank, or game and wank too much, and it is pretty rare for anyone to know a woman doing similar. Both genders seem about equal in the other common aspects of this, sedentary lifestyle and eating too much of the wrong foods. It just seems to me as if in general women go for a more diversified portfolio of pleasure seeking vices and that tends to reduce the impact?

I've really got to say, this one is in large part a guy issue for guys to deal with among guys not least because it affects all areas of a guy's life not just his sex life... he could go MGHOW and yet still be faced with the escalating consequences of a life of easy but fruitless pleasure, giving up on dating just hides the problem it doesn't stop it. Whereas women who go WGHOW seem to be better at finding a balance and make it through without imploding.

You're going to have to work out what standard of behavior is necessary for young men around pleasurable activities that are highly accessible and highly habituating or those young men won't even be fit to relate to themselves much less date or have relationships with other people. There need to be norms around the behaviors involved. Remember from old TV shows how there used to be a norm about not drinking in the morning and day drinking was seen as disreputable and degenerate but a couple of G&Ts or beer or glasses of wine with dinner were seen as just fine? That's what we need, cultural limits, agreed on between men.

MusicalMarceline · 2019-09-27T22:31:44+00:00

I wouldn't want to be a guy dating right now for sure. It's easier in some ways though like meeting people on OLD and being able to communicate often with Iphones. I guess everything being so accessible makes everything seem worthless in a way. In our times people are just more disposable now when there's always a chance of meeting bigger better options.

cuckspace · 2019-09-28T00:14:37+00:00

It's not just that there are more distractions for men. Women don't offer the same value to a household and family life as previous generations. Instead of a LTR or marriage bringing stability and comfort to a man's life it makes it more stressful. The incentive to form a serious relationship with a modern woman is hardly there for men who are past being naive and deluded (and thirsty). It's just too risky and not worth it.

That leaves STR, FWBs and ONSs. Jumping through the hoops that women nowadays demand, being exactly the right combination of a clown and a jerk to keep them tingles, feelz and lulz flowing, is just too much hard work for most men. The juice is not worth the squeeze.

flyinghorse1 · 2019-09-28T05:49:31+00:00

Dating has never been easier for the top 20% of men than right now. I believe its harder right now for average men, and awful for below par men.

AI_WAIFU · 2019-09-28T01:42:37+00:00

I thinks it's makes more sense to talk about how the equation for whether or not to date has changed for a man then to phrase it in terms of motivation.

Women are economically independent and in some metrics (education) outcompeting men, and so have less to gain from being with a man. This raises their standards for long term commitment/marriage.
Simultaneously, common expenses like medical care and housing are succumbing to cost-disease, raising the amount of work that men and women need to put in to their carriers and cutting time that they would otherwise spend meeting each-other.
As this is happening, old school social institutions that would normally bring men and women together (the church) are no longer viable.
Modern entertainment/media is also detrimental to social skills.
This same media becomes a very enticing alternative to face-to-face social interaction, for both genders, making women pickier and raising the opportunity cost of the effort men put into relationships.
Dating apps are very demoralizing for men, because they amplify the dynamic of men being suitors while women act as choosers and prevent a man from building up a relationship with a woman using the tools available with face to face interaction.

As a result if you take a man who is moderately introverted and of average attractivness. He has two choices.

Spend an inordinate amount of time with online dating, sending possibly hundreds of messages and getting rejected by most women, to maybe get a date. Which, bluntly is not a pleasant experience.
Go outside. However, the man must find a place to meet women, which, given that most group activities are becoming gendered, means doing activities he might not enjoy. Then after meeting women, he and the women he's talking too need sufficient social skills to make the interaction go anywhere. Due to the aforementioned media, there's a real chance that both parties will try and dodge any awkwardness by staring at their phones.

In either case, due to the extra selectiveity of women, he'll need to work out and/or make an abnormally large amount of money to get the interest of the women. Both of which cost time that could be spent on something else.

All of this is a lot of work, demoralizing and unlikely to payoff. The greater the aforementioned effects, the greater the temptation to just stay at home, play some vidya, and vent about how all foids are shit on some irrelevant forum. Further decreasing the social skills and physical attractiveness of the man, and locking him into his choice.

Willow-girl · 2019-09-28T11:50:21+00:00

I think it's harder than it was, say, 75 years ago because back then most women didn't work and having a baby out-of-wedlock was taboo. Landing a husband was almost the only way a woman could have a home and family of her own, as well as the accompanying status in the FSM. This probably helped less attractive men find brides.

statusincorporated · 2019-09-27T21:30:38+00:00

Not much has changed with regard to WHO is having the most casual sex. Hawt alpha studs always got the most. And if anything, because this generation is having less sex, they got more.

What's DIFFERENT is that all of this is out in the open and men are seeing that certain men are treated differently than others. Some men don't have to take people out to dinner, etc. to get sex.

Not only that, but men have silly standards not present in previous generations thanks to movies featuring some loser schlub somehow ending up with a '10' of one degree or another. That ain't reality. And people back in the day KNEW it wasn't reality. It's like wanting something for nothing.

I actually had a convo with my dad about this ages ago, these topics that TRPers think are so shrouded in secrecy, about how some guys can get it on the first date and others have to wait date after date.

He shrugged.

"That's just the way it is. How the game is played, so what? You wanna be the other guy, do what you can to look better. Otherwise, you're a prideful idiot for refusing to take your path to getting laid.

I used to just do both. I started out asking women if they wanted to go have a drink with me in my car up on this nice hill outside of town --- back then you could do things like that, it was acceptable, which is probably why Ted Bundy happened (laugh track) --- and you know...at first, maybe one cute girl out of every I don't know....fifty or sixty would be into it. But I also started hitting the gym hard because I saw guys who were more successful and they looked macho, so I wanted to look more macho. Sure enough, the more macho I got, the easier it got."

WHOA SO REDPILL HOW DID HE KNO LOL?!?!!?!?!!111!!1?!?!?!!

My dad is an aging Chadster who is the most bluepill guy ever. Yet somehow...he has this common sense.

Now that this stuff is more out in the open, though...I just think more men are going to walk away from marriage and traditional relationships.

diffdedbed · 2019-09-27T22:14:35+00:00

I was a young virgin dork with no game but I wanted to get laid so badly that I overcame it.

Internet sucked back then.

fevertree · 2019-09-28T12:43:46+00:00

Depends how far you go back. To date a girl a hundred years ago you had to hang out with her parents. Then you had to marry her.

So...the issue isn't that its harder to date. The issue is its harder to secure a mate.

starfox863 · 2019-09-28T13:47:21+00:00

The economy has been bad for young people in the last 12 years.

Because of this more people are underemployed/ unemployed. Broke men are not appealing dates. Men will date a broke woman.

So yes , dating is harder for men.

poppy_blu · 2019-09-28T15:06:44+00:00

Late to the convo but I really think one of the biggest problems for millennials and gen z is lack of self awareness. They are being raised that way and have a hard time rectifying 18 years of being told they’re special and they’re fine the way they are with the real world where you have to earn respect and attention.

I watched these kids last and night and thought Jesus, do none of them know what a mirror is? Do they have no idea that they’re walking around with 24/7 resting bitch face or how their behaviors or words are perceived by others?

Add to that the fact that no one really needs restrictive old dating norms any more and those guys who learned from their own fathers that being a provider would land them women are angry at how the world has changed.

That said, a smart motivated self aware man looks at the situation and says ok how do I change my strategy in a world that’s changed. And they do all right.

Others guys sit around and say it isn’t fair and opt out of the game while continuing to Monday morning quarterback. And they end up in the manosphere.

[deleted] · 2019-09-29T22:26:26+00:00

Dating is different. It is harder for some men who have been socialized to how dating used to be. It is easier for other men who have adapted to how things are now. Generalizing how men have it is really fucking hard because I am way more successful in dating people now than I was in my late teens/early 20s when facebook was still .edu emails only.

rus9384 · 2019-09-27T21:44:14+00:00

I assume dating is not harder, but casual sex is harder as there was decline in the amount of casual sex.

P.S. Speaking about the US.

daniellederek · 2019-09-28T01:35:42+00:00

I can say that I've been on a proper date in about 15 years. A proper date being a meal an activity followed by some wink wink nudge nudge.

It seems with social media everyone skips over the getting to know you bits and just wants to put you in their convenient slots. Be it 45 mins for coffee, an couple hours to watch sportsball, 20 mins on sat night at 3am cause option A passed out...

throwawayhouseissue1 · 2019-09-28T01:52:10+00:00

People are getting married a lot older than we used to as a society. It was nothing for most people to be married by 20-21. Now, people wouldn't even consider getting married that early.

Ekaj_B · 2019-09-28T10:01:13+00:00

I think that men have become more comfortable with stepping outside traditional masculinity but that has negative knock-on effects. One being the fact that women still predominantly want to date and fuck “alpha”/ masculine / top of the hierarchy men.

Men who don’t fit this are left out and dating is harder for them. These men are also more likely to speak about it but one of the other negatives is that society doesn’t like men displaying weakness. Complaining about dating troubles is weakness. Feminism can’t address this (before anyone starts) due to the ideological prism it sees the world as - men as the oppressor, etc.

So IMO I’d say it’s become more prevalent and there are people who have just given up (like me) and are just wishing for the sweet release of death.

ifelsedowhile · 2019-09-28T17:02:34+00:00

Easier for alphas, harder for betas. ça va sans dire.

SDW137 · 2019-09-29T01:01:10+00:00

Mostly the first one, which in turn causes the second one to become true as well.

MDMCrab · 2019-10-04T00:23:36+00:00

Yes. Both.

silkXseX · 2019-09-27T21:02:20+00:00

It’s Harder because women can work today and don’t have to rely on men. We have men because we want them now not because we need them.

NOTSM · 2019-09-27T21:12:56+00:00

has the dating landscape changed in a way that requires more effort of men (in general) than it did for their parents' generation?

I think it’s harder for men to find a relationship but it’s easier for attractive or social men to sleep around. I’d also say the same is true for women.

And if it's more work now, is there also more reward now, or is it like the broader economy where we're all forced to be increasingly productive for relatively decreasing pay?

Obesity has dragged the average payoff down in one area but women being able to work and bring in a second salary has increased the reward in another.

OR, conversely, do men today have less baseline motivation (in general) than their parents' generation

Baseline motivation to get married is definitely down.

And if they're less motivated, what might be the cause?

A few reasons off the top of my head. Less social stigma to being a bachelor. Over the top child support payments. Economic worries. More entertainment options. Easier access to casual sex. Rise in obesity rates. Increase in single motherhood.

Nodoxxintoxin · 2019-09-27T21:33:10+00:00

Both. Online dating has made it harder. Cue the responses.... Porn has killed motivation.

Manny1400 · 2019-09-28T15:50:47+00:00

This might be purple pill, or maybe a black pill, but while men have had to increase their qualities and desirability, women have not been motivated to do the same thing

In other words, western women in 2019 are of conspicuously low value as both girlfriends and wives, when you compare them to women from the past, or in other cultures. Why?

High N-counts: lack of self-control, discipline, and self-worth. Riding the CC unapologetically.
Materialistic and focused on career objectives rather than family and husband. Valuing independence above all else.
Poor stylistic choices and masculine behavior. Walking around in dirty jeans and a sweat shirt like she just doesn't fucking care, even if she is attractive.
Bad ideology and cultural values. Infected by feminism and harboring hostility towards men and country.

This doesn't mean there are not women of quality out there. There certainly is, but there has been a big reduction in overall quality.

So men are working furiously to better themselves, find good careers, and become good providers, but for what? They reach the finish line and say to themselves "really, is this it"?

Then they become resentful, cold and distant, or start cheating. I know, it happened to me. Dated a girl, off and on, for 4 years in my 20s. Thought I would marry her. But as I started looking at her more closely, and started evaluating her, I was like "forget it--this is a waste of time".

So dating IS harder for sure. And it is also harder for women, but for different reasons.

flamingoinghome · 2019-09-27T21:06:15+00:00

Third option: it's almost identical in terms of difficulty, it's just that social needs are literally the only ones that haven't gotten caught up in the instant-gratification arms race, so they appear more difficult.

Dating isn't the only social need that gets this--discussions of friendship are relatively rare, but they fit the pattern.

Edit: why are you downvoting me? I'm right.

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throwaway85176 · 2019-09-28T00:29:45+00:00

tnais · 2019-09-27T21:12:55+00:00

There’s never been a better time to be a man. Most men don’t really want to take advantage of this opportunity though for various reasons.

[deleted] · 2019-09-27T21:03:01+00:00

Communication is better, we hear the complaints more.

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