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DevilishRogue
[–][deleted] 121 points122 points123 points 10 years ago (22 children) | Copy Link
I dont even think its not understanding. Im convinced alot of them havent even read anything here and theyve just been told that were a bunch of manipulative misogynists who just want sex and hate women.
With that preconception, reading only a few thread titles in a skim sort of validates that.
I found TRP through someone mentioning in a discussion i was having, 'those misogynists at the red pill', and i, being me, immediately wanted to know what this was, because ive honestly never known of anything called misogynistic that is :P
[–]TRP Vanguardtheubercuber73 points74 points75 points 10 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link
Im convinced alot of them havent even read anything here and theyve just been told that were a bunch of manipulative misogynists
This is the answer.
That's why so often we are also called homophobic, despite constantly being opening to our gay posters. They aren't exactly our target audience, since heterosexual relations is kind of the point of the sub, but we have gotten some great stories out of our gay members.
[–][deleted] 62 points63 points64 points 10 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link
We were called homophobic earlier today by The Blue Pill for suggesting that a straight man shouldn't have to suck a dick. What the fuck? It's really insane. I have never seen homophobia accepted on here, and many posters seem to actively quite like our gay brethren.
[–]alt3031358 points59 points60 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
homophobic .. for suggesting that a straight man shouldn't have to suck a dick.
Funny, they never would suggest a lesbian take a dick to make a man happy. Lesbians don't like dick.
Straight guys have a fluid sexuality or they are in denial. s/
[–]soapjackal21 points22 points23 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
I don't understand that sub. It doesn't make a damn bit of sense.
[–][deleted] 21 points22 points23 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
It's a circle-jerk sub that helps frustrated people to vent about The Red Pill and blame men for all their problems in their lives.
Remember that is easier to bitch about what other people do/say/think than to try to better yourself.
Like overweight bitter women with as bad BO as attitude blame the patriarchy because men don't find her lard ass attractive.
[–][deleted] 0 points0 points0 points 10 years ago | Copy Link
[permanently deleted]
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
No, The Red Pill teaches (among other things) to take responsibility of your life, only weak people(A.K.A Blue pillers) blame others for their own short comings and/or problems.
As I said.
For everyone here is a consensus that if you life sucks, is because of you, not an imaginary evil, like patriarchy for example.
[–]frequentlywrong3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
The red pill is about teaching. The blue pill is about bitching.
[–]ilovemyself101-1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Met 2 gay guys on a tour through Vietnam, Cambodia and Thailand. Single handedly some of the funniest guys I've ever met
[–]MarkarthAlchemist-2 points-1 points0 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Have you not noticed that Reddit has a huge number of borderline fags?
[–]TRP VanguardHumanSockPuppet30 points31 points32 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
but we have gotten some great stories out of our gay members.
Because women exploit gay men just as readily as they exploit straight men.
Sure, a woman can't bait a gay man into compliance using the temptation of sex. But she can shame and manipulate him into taking her side on issues (even against his fellow men), and she can use him as a decoration to her social circle - basically as a defense against accusations of bigotry. "I don't hate men. I have a gay friend!"
That's why gay men thrive here, even in spite of the fact that TRP has little to offer them in the way of seduction tactics. It consistently shows them how they're being turned into feminism's useful idiots - and it shows them how they can avoid being played like that.
[–]mrpoopistan3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
No room for homophobia. Too many lesbians have way too much game to just ignore their valuable advice!
[–]DevilishRogue[S] 9 points10 points11 points 10 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link
So you think it's lack of understanding coupled with preconceived notions from hearing bad things from other people?
I can't remember where I first came across a reference to red pill but I'd certainly acknowledged it's truisms before I'd visited the subreddit.
[–][deleted] 15 points16 points17 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Quite a few people have come to TRP, being told it's bad, and then once having read enough, they realize how accurate it is, and they subscribe.
[–][deleted] 12 points12 points12 points 10 years ago | Copy Link
[–]bluntsmokingking3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Its actually how I found this place, one of those "worst of reddit" threads. Now this is almost the only sub i actually visit. Thankyou random feminist!
[–]2 Senior Endorsed Contributorvengefully_yours10 points11 points12 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
I was doing most things since I was about 18, was doing some things wrong though too. The big thing for me is TRP quantified what I found to work over the years and put a fine point on it.
I have been called a jerk by other guys who can't get laid, and of course women liked me better than them because there has been no pedestal on my end since the first one all those years ago. They saw how I acted around women and never made the connection that how I am is what attracted those females. They are still stuck in the mindset of being nice to women and hoping for pussy.
Coming in here they would see it spelled out and 'know' we are wrong, that movies, TV, and books are right, and that women must be treated like queens instead of the human females they are. Womepn bristle at it because they believe they are different, want to think they are pure, and can't see themselves for how they actually are.
[–][deleted] 7 points8 points9 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
You seem to be a natural. Whether by upbringing, or just your natural personality. I cant say that's me at all. What puzzles me most are the people that would gain a lot from this knowledge, (most non-naturals) but somehow choose to blandly scorn RP knowledge. I guess the majority of people out there are content with the rare bone they get from their social circles. I just don't understand it. But one can only lead a horse to water I guess.
[–]I-skid-on-your-grave1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I swear I was a natural for so long. I had no idea. Then depression and myself fucked it all up, now I'm slowly trying to get there again.
[–][deleted] 2 points2 points2 points 10 years ago | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I think thats alot of it, though not necessarily all of it. Thats just all i can verify through my own experiences :)
I was redpill before i ever came here. Ive learnt stuff anyway (and still occassionally do), simply because of the collective of experience and the echo chamber for providing evidence.
[–]Xbitz 55 points55 points55 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Men are ego invested in the lifetime of blue pill lies.
Its hard to let all that go as a sunk cost, even if they know its lies.
[–]TRP VanguardCyralea17 points18 points19 points 10 years ago [recovered] (5 children) | Copy Link
I'll be honest, 22 year-old me would have probably balked at TRP and passed it off as a bunch of chumps. 32 year-old me has way more experience and can now see through the bullshit.
I think it takes failing enough times before you can genuinely attempt to make an improvement in your life. This is true of any addiction or bad behaviour as well.
[–]AbsoluteAltitude4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
22 year old me thought that pick up artists, and guys with real game were womanizing pieces of trash that didn't serve a purpose other than making other guys lives more difficult. 24 year old me is learning so much by lurking here and experiencing/failing in the life scene, that I'm fuckin pumped to see what 30s me will bring to the table.
[–][deleted] 3 points3 points3 points 10 years ago | Copy Link
[–]RockinRhombus3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
This is exactly what happened to me. I had to go through it to understand it.
In my early 20's I was very much BP. My dad having passed in my late teens, I was "raised" into "manhood" by women: my mother and sisters.
I fell. Hard. It read like your typical TBP post of "gf is seeming distant, and there's a new guy at work..." shit you see all time here. And it went down as you all might suspect.
Let me tell ya, once I "saw the light", I've been working my ass off to UNDO the past 10 years of my life. All that bullshit I was fed. All that mental castration I went through. I was met with hostility, from my family. But my methods, which I would later find out had been documented very well in this sub, were effective. Oh, had I only found this place, or at least this concept sooner.
The only thing I've found, is that it's incredibly difficult, or near impossible to find a woman I can trust. I mean, realistically, I don't see myself settling down ever. How could I? How can I, knowing that I've brought supposed "committed" women near the point of cheating on their boyfriends and/or husbands (I was the one that ended up backing off, I couldn't do that shit and live with it).
It's like women are one good "opportunity" or new infatuation away from blowing you off.
[–]EndoScorpion0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I can't remember who but was one blogger who wrote about "gaming your wife," and that red pill husbands/boyfriends can keep a woman by continuously gaming her.
[–]Pushnikov4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I think it's even further than that.
It's a co-narcissistic behavior feeding female narcissism. There are some choice parts to pull out of there that define male blue-pill-ism.
www.alanrappoport.com/pdf/Co-Narcissism%20Article.pdf
[–]magicalbird5 points6 points7 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
if all men went TRP cheap validation would be denied
[–]DevilishRogue[S] 12 points13 points14 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
That's a great way of putting it. The sunk cost is higher the longer they leave it but are you sort of likening the belief to former religious people turning atheist?
[–]Xbitz 19 points19 points19 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Any belief you carry over a lifetime is difficult to drop. You see it almost as a part of yourself, a part of your ego.
But its just learned, its not you.
[–]thinkon1t11 points12 points13 points 10 years ago* [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link
I think Khrushchev's "Cult of personality" speech which criticized Stalin is a fascinating example of what can happen when the wool is pulled away from a lifelong held belief. It's disillusionment on a grand scale.
"The speech caused such shock to the audience that, according to some reports, some of those present suffered heart attacks, and others later committed suicide."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Cult_of_Personality_and_Its_Consequences
[–]DevilishRogue[S] 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
This is a really useful analogy I hadn't thought of but makes perfect sense.
[–]complete_asshole_2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
That is exactly how a cult keeps fleecing members for years.
[–]7Vega85 points86 points87 points 10 years ago (42 children) | Copy Link
Women hate it because it threatens the frame they benefit so much from. If every guy started following the protocol listed here then women as a whole would lose a massive amount of power and control.
Blue-pill eaters hate it because it represents competition. They are sincerely convinced that their Nice-Guy TM way to getting girls is the "right" way and that it would work if there weren't so many red-pill "jerks" running around.
[–]2nd_class_citizen[🍰] 15 points16 points17 points 10 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
I think this is why women especially hate the seduction community and pickup artists. Well not all of them, but most of them say "that would never work on me!"
[–]TRP VanguardCyralea21 points22 points23 points 10 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
I think most of them have this comical idea of what a PUA would be like in real life. They probably picture a guy with an over-exaggerated swagger spouting cheesy lines left and right while simultaneously negging them.
Reality is, PUA behaviour is exactly what would attract them. They wouldn't even discern it to be seduction, they'd simply find themselves attracted to the guy and pass it off as that.
I've met several girls when I was at university that ran into these types and slept with them. They'd always be the kind of girls who went on about being special snowflakes that "wouldn't fall for that".
Remember, All Girls Are Like ThatTM
[–]TRP Vanguardnicethingyoucanthave19 points20 points21 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
They wouldn't even discern it to be seduction
Twice I've been told that the specific reason she liked me is that "you were 'real' and didn't try any of that 'game' stuff"
If you screw it up, it's obvious. But when you do it well, they don't know. So from their perspective, all the examples they're seeing are guys messing up and annoying them. Of course they have a negative opinion of it.
[–]2nd_class_citizen[🍰] 14 points15 points16 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Fucking gold
[–]vox_veritas4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Heh... Like Mystery?
[–]2nd_class_citizen[🍰] 4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I swear every depiction of pick up artists I've seen in pop culture is based on Mystery
Because they are.
[–]ilovemyself1011 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Funny they judge him , laugh, say people go dress that way never get laid. And yet mystery gets laid and has women fawn over him on his tv show the pick up artist.
[–][deleted] 16 points17 points18 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
It reminds me of that recent study where women were the ones admonishing another woman's sexual behavior. "What a SLUT!"... They're just angry that they have competition. That, and the radioactive levels of white-knighting on reddit.
[–]randomkloud7 points8 points9 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
or that study in some scandinavian country iirc where they found the female HR staff were removing the applications of attractive females.
[–][deleted] -11 points-11 points-11 points 10 years ago | Copy Link
[–]7Vega15 points16 points17 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
You're not competition for the girls I sleep with.
You've never seen me dance.
You should hang out with all of my liberal feminist friends.
I can honestly say I would rather have my gums scraped.
We fuck like rabbits. We casually fuck our friends. We have parties where pretty much everybody is naked.
This reads like you're trying to sell me a timeshare.
Because you're not my competition.
For those Andrea Dworkin look-alikes? No, friend. They're all yours.
[–][deleted] -6 points-6 points-6 points 10 years ago | Copy Link
[–]7Vega10 points11 points12 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I get it, you have lots of sex with ugly chicks.
Don't be mad just because I have higher standards.
[–]ilovemyself1012 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I was gona suggest you have a competition with him, but then I realised you only sleep with attractive women so it's unfair
[–][deleted] 11 points12 points13 points 10 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
If you think /r/theredpill is just PUA game, then you've misunderstood us at a basic level.
[–]TRP VanguardYouDislikeMyOpinion4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
You know what? I can understand that blue pill game works and people can have fun being blue pill in life.
If your girl is at a club, and an RP man goes about seducing her, it's going to give you competition whether you like it or not.
You're assuming that it doesn't work.
Landing (I'm using this word for a reason) a girl by being blue pill obviously still works. That was never the subject of discussion.
We fuck like rabbits. We casually fuck our friends. We have parties where pretty much everybody is naked. I mean, we're all pretty much living the dream here but we don't have to be shitty people to do it.
You seem to think that we aren't in the same social circles as you. Do you think we go around only preaching RP in real life and restricting our social relations to RP people?
And we tend to actually enjoy the company of the women we're fucking instead of loathing them and playing weird power games with them.
My only suggestion for you is to read more and understand other people better.
Yes, yes we are your competition. Always know that.
[–][deleted] -5 points-5 points-5 points 10 years ago | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 6 points6 points6 points 10 years ago | Copy Link
[–][deleted] -1 points-1 points-1 points 10 years ago | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 9 points10 points11 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
if you're getting laid, you're probably redpill in more ways than you think.
there's nothing inherently misogynistic about redpill. you probably have a confident and powerful frame that women find attractive. that's redpill.
[–]Hokuten856 points7 points8 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
There are certainly people that advocate the idea of spinning plates, but I don't think that's the core message.
Improve yourself. Be confident in yourself. Push yourself. Strengthen your financial situation. Take care of yourself. Put yourself in the best situations possible for your own happiness.
Improving yourself and your personal situation is only going to help your situation with women. You come at the relationship between men and women from a position of strength and self respect. It may not be the only way, but it avoids the "exchange resources for sex" scenario that women do not respect.
[–]cocktails4-2 points-1 points0 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
"I'm not here to parade the concepts of Men's Rights- nor am I here to discuss self-improvement tips that /r/seduction now purports are to make you a better man, not get laid more often."
From TRP Introduction.
[–]Hokuten853 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
You can take a lot of things out of context and it certainly looks bad.
The only thing that is saying is that the creators of this subreddit do not agree with the tactics promoted by /r/seduction and the Men's Rights community within reddit.
The introduction doesn't define anything. I sets up the reason for it's existence and it prompts for the discussion that defines TRP.
Because of the necessity to have good game, we must define what good game is. A large portion of Red Pill discussion revolves around evolutionary psychology. Understanding the facets of this psychology are key to developing a good sexual strategy. Because this strategy is useful not only in gaining the attention of the opposite sex, but continuing relationships, having children, and maximizing your own happiness throughout life, I'm going to argue that defining the strategy outside of just "good game" is an important facet of Red Pill Discussion.
[–]insane_psycho7 points8 points9 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
9 times out of 10 liberal feminists are the type of people I would Never want to see naked.
[–]TRP Vanguardnicethingyoucanthave6 points7 points8 points 10 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
we don't have to be shitty people to do it
that's a straw man. I'm never shitty to anyone.
We fuck like rabbits. We casually fuck our friends.
Do you obtain clear, enthusiastic verbal consent for each and every distinct sexual act? "I would like to remove your bra now, is that acceptable?"
Do you ever have alcohol at these parties?
[–]cocktails55 points6 points7 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
I'm never shitty to anyone.
I would argue that RP theory is inherently shitty. But hey, maybe you're a special snowflake.
Do you obtain clear, enthusiastic verbal consent for each and every distinct sexual act? "I would like to remove your bra now, is that acceptable?" Do you ever have alcohol at these parties?
Here's a shocker: One can dislike TRP and not be SRS/SJW. Who knew?
[–]TRP Vanguardnicethingyoucanthave4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
I would argue that your straw man of red pill theory is inherently shitty. Just like how I can quote to you a bunch of feminists talking about killing all men and claim that feminism is inherently shitty.
[–]cocktails51 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
And which straw man did I construct? I mean, TBP links to you guys saying the dumbest shit day after day. You don't need a straw man when you guys are more than capable of hanging yourselves with your own words.
[–]TRP Vanguardnicethingyoucanthave2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
which straw man did I construct?
"we don't have to be shitty people to do it"
TBP links to you guys saying the dumbest shit day after day.
...and /r/tumblrinaction links to feminists saying the dumbest shit day after day.
...and /r/srssucks links to feminists saying the dumbest shit day after day.
Here, right here, is one of your mods being shitty (this is the same user on a previous account)
Do you understand what selection bias is, by the way? Your sub looks through tens of thousands of TRP users and selects out on the ones that you can circle-jerk over. Of course you have a slanted view of. Of course! How could it be any different?
[–]TRP Vanguardnicethingyoucanthave3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I ask:
And your response is:
One can dislike TRP and not be SRS/SJW. Who knew?
So, you're saying that you're a rapist? Wow.
[–]cocktails5-1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I'm sorry, I didn't realize that there were so many delicate feelings over here.
[–]DoctorsHateHim0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
How can this blue pill knowledge get upvotes. So many blue pill lurkers
[–]DevilishRogue[S] 4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
I upvote everything posted to my threads that contributes to the discussion. It may be "trolling" but it brought out some good rejoinders, particularly from /u/Uhaqau who rightly highlighted that /u/cocktails4 is making the same mistake that other critics of trp make and /u/Hokuten85 who has made a genuine attempt to engage and refute in such a way that is not only constructive but has helped articulate things for me.
[–]DoctorsHateHim0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
This is a noble goal, but you don't understand the vote system here. Look at the labels "Red Pill Knowledge" - "Still plugged in"
[–]DevilishRogue[S] 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Just trying to explain at least one of the upvotes. And on the voting I hope it won't offend if I continue to break the rules :-)
[–]DevilishRogue[S] 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
instead of loathing them and playing weird power games with them.
This I think is what I was after - why do you think TRP posters loathe women or play games with them? It seems the opposite is true, they enjoy women in every way and try to cut all of the game playing that usually goes on between the sexes out of the equation.
[–]Clauderoughly53 points54 points55 points 10 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link
There are many reasons, none of which are based on any sort of logic.
It's easier to hold RP up as some sort of boogey man, and blame all the worlds problems on it, rather than take an objective look at the issues.
There are a few things I love about this sub
It's overwhelmingly positive when it comes to problems. This sub offers practical solutions to improving your relationships with the opposite sex, rather than just whining about things.
It accepts that for the most part, traditional gender roles worked really, really well for the last few thousand years and sees no reason to discard them.
The methods here, active work, are evidence based and are repeatable in the real world.
I think that one of the major reasons RP gets so much hate is that we can actively and repeatably prove most of feminist theory to be completely false.
That terrifies the feminists on reddit, and their male lickspittles.
[–]DavidTIntellectual1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I also love how often actual scientific research is linked here. You never find that kind of material on feminist forums ie SRS and Tumblr (although that might be part of their science-denying "biotruths" nonsense)
[–]DevilishRogue[S] 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
I agree with you 100% but it isn't just feminists that criticize this subreddit. Do you think it's because they've heard feminists criticize it and are jumping on the bandwagon? Have they misunderstood things? Does the red pill front page project an inaccurate image of the subreddit?
[–]dropit_sphere20 points21 points22 points 10 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
I agree with you 100% but it isn't just feminists that criticize this subreddit.
95% of U.S. citizens are feminists by 1920's standards.
[–]Ronfar2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
True. What was once a radical idea is now common thought.
Like for example, patriarchy theory was developed just part of radical feminism. Before then, people didn't think women were 'oppressed' in the past. Now almost everyone does.
[–]Pornography_saves_li2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Very true. I wish more people would realize this. The very notion that 'men oppressed women' was pretty much THE ideological dividing line between 'feminist' and 'radical feminist' for most of the feminist movement. Now we have not only internalized that as a society, but we are fast approaching widespread social acceptance of 'all men are rapists, and that's all they are'.
Feminism is to be fought, and fought hard. Not appeased or accommodated.
[–]YouGoJoe6 points7 points8 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
I don't think you're being justly downvoted. The word 'feminist' around here carries a lot of weight, but I believe we're mostly talking the Third Wave feminists (which really only got going in the last 20~ years).
You're right about the 1920's comment, that was more of an institutional equality movement (right to vote/run for office/etc). The "First Wave of Feminism"
[–]I-skid-on-your-grave3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Yeah, now I could care less about political correctness (thank you RP), but in this sub "feminist" means "third wave feminism" for the most part and a lot of people don't see that.
No, I don't want you to get raped. No, I do believe you should be able to vote. No, I won't beat the crap out of you if you didn't make dinner.
"Yeah, now I couldn't care less about political correctness"
I think the term "traditional gender roles" can be confusing because people use it differently. I don't think all women should only do domestic things, I think it should be stressed that men and women have different strengths. For example, fathers teach children discipline, respect, authority, etc. and mothers have more empathy, sympathy, try to be more accepting, nurturing, etc.
[–]thinkon1t75 points76 points77 points 10 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link
Because reality bites.
[–]gmflag44 points45 points46 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Truth hurts. Just like in the medical profession, some people just don't want to deal with the facts. We live in a society where feelings are more important than fact.
[–]ItsYourHandInMine42 points43 points44 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
That's why in any other subreddit you'll get downvoted for saying obvious shit like fat girls are ugly, or marriage is shit for men.
[–]DevilishRogue[S] 11 points12 points13 points 10 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link
So you think they do understand but want to avoid reality? Hamstering for both men and women, if you will?
[–]thinkon1t24 points25 points26 points 10 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link
I think a lot of people do. It's a coping mechanism. People build bubbles as a sort of refuge of denial.
RP recognizes that nature is harsh and brutal and that we are responsible for creating our own meaning in life.
BP are like adults who still believe in Santa Claus. They live in a fool's paradise.
[–]psheemo2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
That's why this subreddit is hated so much. People here assume that they are better than rest. Just because someone has different opinion than you, doesn't mean that he is worse.
[–]DevilishRogue[S] 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
I don't know why you're getting downvoted as you've effectively answered my question. People here think that because they understand something that others don't that they are in some way superior to those who don't understand. Whilst there is truth in that to those who don't understand they just see other people looking smug. Thank you.
[–]psheemo2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Well, people here can't see beyond the end of their nose. I totally get their point of view and where it come from, but acting like fucking animal doesn't make me happy. Why would I manipulate women using cheap tricks, when I can just let things be and let them like me for who I am.
I want to add that, I tried all this PUA stuff when I was really desperate and it worked. It just doesn't feel right.
Next big thing, I believe that men and women are equal. I'm not feminist or anything, I just treat all people with respect based on their actions, not gender.
I'm waiting for downvotes :)
[–]DevilishRogue[S] 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
acting like fucking animal doesn't make me happy. Why would I manipulate women using cheap tricks, when I can just let things be and let them like me for who I am.
Isn't that in essence what the red pill is about, being confident in yourself and not playing into all the shit-testing that can ruin things? Yes, I'm sure there are people here who can't see past the end of their nose, but they don't appear to be a majority or influential here and can be found everywhere else too anyway.
Perhaps it doesn't feel right because it goes against what you've been socialized to believe is right? I'm not happy about it either, it isn't how I want things to be but the results speak for themselves. Life isn't Disney-esque and although there are exceptions the general rule seems to stand.
Next big thing, I believe that men and women are equal.
Equal in what terms? I believe their drives and desires are very different. They look for different qualities in partners and use different strategies and methods to seek partners out. They have many different values about what matters in a partner and behave accordingly. Respecting this difference is to me treating women with respect, albeit a different sort of respect to what convention demands.
[–]psheemo1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link
See, that's the difference between me and majority of people here. I'm not seeking partners. I want to meet and get to know people. If there is good chemistry, I try to take it to the next level. As simple as that. This way it feels more rewarding and I don't have to deal with feeling guilty after not calling girl after bad one night stand. Maybe my sex drive is lower than average, I have no idea. I just feel no need to hook up with random chick every weekend.
I think that just makes you normal.
[–]RC_521311 points12 points13 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Definitely. I mean, RP philosophy flies in the face of everything we're told as boys that we should do to attract women. On some level, it's the equivalent of convincing people that the world really is round, when they've been told the world is flat.
Truthfully, had I not experienced the abject failure of conventional wisdom for attracting women first-hand, I probably wouldn't have given RP philosophy much value at first either.
[–]Endorsed Contributorvacuu6 points7 points8 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8cq9y3QagI
[–]TheSonofLiberty20 points21 points22 points 10 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link
You guys need to watch some of the shit you post.
There was an RoK link a few days ago that basically said all trans* people are freaks; that isn't the type of thing that is going to get you more men and women to change their minds.
Many of the comments here are also just generic "Us vs Them" approach, hinting that everything that is posted here is 100% true, and that they just don't like the "truth."
For example, this comment:
Because almost the entire population has been brainwashed/socially engineered with the ideology of feminism. It's like asking why atheism is loathed in Saudi Arabia, you offend their belief system.
Because almost the entire population has been brainwashed/socially engineered with the ideology of feminism.
It's like asking why atheism is loathed in Saudi Arabia, you offend their belief system.
Exactly what I mean. Obviously the only reason people dislike TRP is entirely because of their environment, not because they have actually read anything and disagreed, only TRP can read and actively apply their minds to form an opinion!
[–]DevilishRogue[S] -3 points-2 points-1 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
RoK link
I'm not familiar with the terminology, could you explain or better yet provide the link?
people dislike TRP is entirely because of their environment, not because they have actually read anything and disagreed
The Saudi Arabia example from this thread that you've cited isn't one that I can believe could offend you even if you disagree with it. If I'm wrong could you explain why or better yet provide a few other examples that contain material you disagree with that are consistent with the ethos here?
[–]TheSonofLiberty6 points7 points8 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
http://www.returnofkings.com/19175/8-ways-to-spot-a-transsexual
Like, I can/will agree on some stuff here, e.g. being social, recognizing and using social status, not yielding to cultural standards, refusing to cater to women just because they are women, etc. But I just see a link like that (is it satire? half-satire, or actually serious) and really get quite annoyed.
I don't even know many, if any, trans* people, but I can at least see that an article like that is really hurtful, and almost seems like bullying.
I am not saying you have to date a trans* person! Personally, I am unsure of how I would react to that situation myself. But not wanting to date a trans* person is not the same as calling them an "actual freak of nature" (third paragraph of the link).
The Saudi Arabia example from this thread that you've cited isn't one that I can believe could offend you even if you disagree with it.
I used that comment mostly for the first sentence (ill just requote it):
My point was that we should objectively be trying to figure out TRP public relations problem instead of just blaming "brainwashing" of everyone that doesn't agree, or that they just "disagree with fundamental truths." Thats just taking the easy way out of an argument by saying that; there also could be some truth to it, but I don't think that causes the majority of the backlash against /r/trp.
[–]DevilishRogue[S] -2 points-1 points0 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Thanks for posting the link. I'm not sure what the authors intent is or how it relates to the red pill other than being authored by someone who presumably adheres to red pill thinking. Without any apparent link my guess is that if someone who posted here also posted a pro-Nazi piece that red pill would be considered pro-Nazi.
Your final paragraph is also really useful in explaining hostility to TRP, although I think there is something to the "brainwashed/socially engineered" comment in that western English-speaking culture in particular has a strong feminist culture and going against a culture that is so strongly embedded now that it is a belief for many is part of the backlash.
Assuming that opposition to the red pill don't "disagree with fundamental truths", what elements of TRP do you think they do have issue with and what would be an effective way to address it?
[–][deleted] 41 points42 points43 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
For the same reason that NSA doesn't like Snowden.
[–]sticky_buddy7 points8 points9 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Goddamn that's a perfect analogy
[–]j_arbuckle20124 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
It's really not.
[–][deleted] 26 points26 points26 points 10 years ago | Copy Link
[–]DevilishRogue[S] -2 points-1 points0 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
But other than the aforementioned AFC rants there is nothing here that supports that conclusion. Are they being wilfully delusional? Are they "hamstering"? Why do they get it so wrong?
[–]AWiseBro42 points43 points44 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."
[–]DevilishRogue[S] 4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Good point. I guess that things are somewhere between the first and second stages at the moment for most people who haven't taken the red pill.
[–]LasherDeviance3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Make sure to give Arthur Schopenhauer his props when you quote him.
[–]AWiseBro4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I actually originally had it in there but there appears to be some discrepancy as to if he said it or not.
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/attribution-of-schopenhauers-three-stages-of-truth.897/
[–]youssarian23 points24 points25 points 10 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link
I'm still new to the whole "red pill" concept. Not sure yet if I'm going to get on board with it, but I've been eating up the philosophy of it a lot the past few days. I can see two reasons why the red pill philosophy is unliked.
First, it dares to declare that men and women are not equal. Women want men to lead them, are apparently less rational then men, etc. Men are needed to be the leaders, are better at logic, etc. To the uneducated eye, these seem to paint women in a negative light while glorifying men. It looks misogynistic. When in reality, red pill philosophy (which I am inclined to agree with in this aspect) states that men and women are just naturally different. One's not better than the other, but they act differently and fulfill different roles. Our society is trying to promote equality in all things (feminism?). In matters of law and religion I'm all for equality of the genders, but in other aspects of life, it's just not feasible for that equality to exist.
Second it seems to radically strategize dating and relationships. It's the same reason /r/seduction seems to be disliked. People talk and plan about meeting a nice lady and possibly hooking up. It comes off as creepy. Just like the previous reason, I think it's partially lack of understanding about the philosophy behind it.
[–]vaker4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
promote equality in all things (feminism?)
Feminism is not about equality. Have you ever seen a feminist argue for equal number of women in the mines and at the oil drills, or any other hard job? No. They only want equal share in the cushy, advantageous positions like board rooms. Feminism is about grabbing any and all possible advantages in the name of equality.
[–]youssarian1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Ah, yes, this is true.
[–]SovietRaptor11 points12 points13 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Women want men to lead them, are apparently less rational then men
It's not that Women are less rational than men, it's that society gives them excuses to use their emotions to make decisions, and then punishes men who do the same thing. It's an ironic double standard considering feminists want women to be so equal and then give them a free pass for making bad decisions.
[–]youssarian-1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I see. Thanks for the clarification!
[–][deleted] 12 points13 points14 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
"In matters of law and religion I'm all for equality of the genders..."
Another reason we are cast as misogynistic is that most people here advocate not getting married due to the massive inequity in divorce and paternity laws and our problem with the /r/pussypass. Inequality only seems to be a problem to society if a woman is on the wrong end.
[–]Letesse5 points6 points7 points 10 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link
complementary is the word you are seeking...nothing to do with equal
[–]youssarian1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link
I don't know if I understand what you're getting at, but "complementary" seems like a good word to use. Men and women aren't the same, but they are complementary.
[–]_MrMan_4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
complementary*
[–]jimbo77712 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
compliment: to commend, or otherwise acknowledge
complement: go hand in hand; accentuate the other
[–]youssarian1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Oh, psshh, proper spelling and grammar on the Internet? Who does that these days? :D
[–]jimbo77712 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I'm not normally a grammar/spelling nazi, but saying that men and women compliment each other is...not quite redpill
I found this really useful. I think a lot of the difficulty in understanding alternative perspectives is forgetting what it is like to not know something. Once you understand the red pill you can't go back to not understanding it.
[–][deleted] 7 points8 points9 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
For the same reason we as a society have become obsessed with every escapism known to man, from masturbation and television, to the internet and every drug possible:
The truth hurts my dude. It hurts.
We've built a society crafted around never having to accept the truth and it's made us a drugged up, internet obsessed, fat, lazy, angry populus.
[–]TRP VanguardArchwinger35 points36 points37 points 10 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
Several reasons.
Women don't know what they want. They know what they think they want, what they say they want, what they're supposed to say they want, but they don't know what they actually want. And when you put to text what women actually want and what actually works for them, they sound like crazy children, especially when you put the truth alongside how they act and what they do with themselves. Women hate any source of information that makes them sound stupid, and they hate TRP even more because it actually works (but only on those other stupid girls!)
Most men do "okay" (in their own minds) by just going out, being a nice guy, being themselves, never focusing on self improvement, never tightening their game, and spending their entire lives bowing to women and hoping to find one who will honor them with eventual sex and marriage. They keep at this long enough that a girl eventually puts out and marries them, and they consider themselves lucky to have her. They did everything "right" and they ended up with a girl. Anybody who tells them that there's a need for TRP is clearly a stupid internet virgin living in his mother's basement who can't get any. Because they didn't have to do any of this and look at them -- they have a wife! They're so smart and successful.
The truth is sexist. Because what women really want is to be women. They're not attracted to pussy men who ask their permission for everything and always defer to what the woman wants. They're attracted to confident leaders, who know what they want and get it. The biggest turn-on for women is to be involved with a high value man -- a winner. Not to be wined and dined by a chump who's buying them flowers and taking them out to eat every 5 seconds because he doesn't have anything else to do with his life. But accepting this as true flies in the face of empowered women and the feminist movement.
For every man that is successful in spite of the odds stacked against him, the power of others over him weakens, the access of others to his wealth and time and resources weakens, and it flies in the face of every man who didn't walk this road and ended up a trapped loser.
[–][deleted] 12 points13 points14 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
This:
It's something that is so blindingly obvious to everyone, yet so many people are afraid to acknowledge it. It's shocking to think how we have managed to create a society that is so full of people so willing to pull the wool over their own eyes, so committed to deluding themselves and viciously attacking anyone who does not go along with the delusion.
It's shocking to think how we have managed to create a society that is so full of people so willing to pull the wool over their own eyes, so committed to deluding themselves and viciously attacking anyone who does not go along with the delusion.
Actually I'd argue that this was a pretty consistent pattern for humanity throughout the ages, whether it be religion or, in more recent times, political ideology. It's also a brilliant answer to why so many others hate the red pill. Thank you.
[–][deleted] 10 points11 points12 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Women know what they want - Alpha fucks and Beta bucks.
They can't verbalize what they want, because then they will be revealed as solipsistic and selfish and it will be that much harder to manipulate men into giving them what they want.
[–]TRP VanguardArchwinger15 points16 points17 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
There is a HUGE disconnect between a woman's conscious and subconscious minds. It's really hard to imagine as a man.
I would wager to say that most women really and truly don't know exactly what they want. For most of them, it's not intentional deception and manipulation. They really think they want what they say they want, then are surprised when they find themselves in bed with an alpha fucks, and equally surprised when they find themselves continuing to lead on their beta bucks about it.
That's where the whole "hamster" we're always ranting about comes in. Women don't rationalize this selfish behavior to fool us. They rationalize it to fool themselves. Because they can't accept that they're manipulative sluts. So they convince themselves that they're not -- that there's a real reason they did what they do and why their case is unique, special, and not like all of those manipulative sluts you hear about.
[–]No_DOX_for_you1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
"There is a HUGE disconnect between a woman's conscious and subconscious minds. It's really hard to imagine as a man."
Ehh? Not particularly. Watch this.
"I would wager to say that most men really and truly don't know exactly what they want. For most of them, it's not intentional deception and manipulation. They really think they want what they say they want, then are surprised when they find themselves in the friendzone, and equally surprised when they find themselves continuing to waste their time on women who won't fuck them.
That's where the whole "hamster" we're always ranting about comes in. Men don't rationalize this selfish behavior to fool women. They rationalize it to fool themselves. Because they can't accept that they're beta pushovers. So they convince themselves that they're not -- that there's a real reason they did what they do and why their case is unique, special, and not like all of the "assholes" you hear about."
This is a brilliant answer and I'm sure that therein somewhere lies the perfect riposte to criticisms of the red pill.
[–]andromede821 points22 points23 points 10 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
Because people think that feminine traits on men and masculine traits on women are the shit, while the other way around is disgusting and sexist.
[–]DevilishRogue[S] 5 points6 points7 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
You mean "If only my man would talk about his feelings more!"? Not sure that things are quite so cut and dried sociologically over masculine traits on women though...
[–]Modredpillschool12 points13 points14 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Most women want a man that allows them to freely express their emotions. But most do not want, and are in fact repulsed by emotional men. The few emotions that do come out of a man have to come from a place of strength and control.
[–]Endorsed ContributorOccamsUsername0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I support your supposition.
[–]frequentlywrong21 points22 points23 points 10 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link
Because feminism is mainstream and seen as an irrefutable truth. TRP is the complete opposite of feminism.
[–]DevilishRogue[S] 12 points13 points14 points 10 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link
I wouldn't say the red pill is opposite of feminism, although I would accept that the two beliefs are mutually exclusive. The Red Pill seems more an acceptance of how things are whereas feminism is more a gender-political interpretation of reality.
[–]Pushnikov5 points6 points7 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
TRP is a reaction to "Feminism" opening up human relationships in ways that haven't been explored in arguably thousands of years.
You can look at a lot of "primitive" people's sexual lives as they were studied and you can see a huge variety in expectations on human relationships and how they can be. The one that was settled on did have a strong masculine tone. Feminism changed that and opened options that weren't available. Men have been left in the lurch since then, since they weren't explicitly told how the rules were changed, and TRP is rebalancing that rule change and communicating it to men.
This isn't any different than when, to use a cliche, "Columbus told the world the earth was round!" (yes, I know it's not factual, but using it as a archetype story) - where people beat down those who are looking for answers because they think that things are good the way they are and that no good can come from exploring our boundaries as people and a human race.
It's the ignorance of the masses, and is in part the cyclical nature of human history.
[–]Mr_Bell1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
Yet our world is a feminine one.
[–]VikaWiklet2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
I disagree. Maybe the U.S. and certain other developed countries are feminine ones, but many, many other countries are not. Have you been to Serbia? Have you been to Georgia (the former Soviet Republic)?
[–]Mr_Bell0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
I don't even live in the US, nor in any developed country for that matter.
Now go troll somewhere else, will ya?
[–]VikaWiklet1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
I'd love to hear why you think our world is a feminine one; Just because I disagree with the statement doesn't mean I'm trolling you. I'm curious, that's all.
[–]Mr_Bell2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Ok. Let's do it then.
The western/developed world is feminine. We agree on that. The rest of the world is not. Ok, let's also assume that.
First, we need to take into account that the western/developed world dictates most of what is wrong or right in the rest of the world. Apple's iPads are being manufactured in China using low-wage labor? (You don't say! I thought they were manufactured by happy poneys.) All the world is appalled. This is front-page material in every news outlet in the world, in developed and underdeveloped countries. (Clothes are still manufactured using even lower wages, but that’s ok. Public opinion only cares about iPads.)
That said, we can agree that, at least at an intellectual level, the rest of the world will follow whatever the western world says is right. The underdeveloped world may take a while to put those ideas to practice, but the pressure is high for them to hop on.
Now we can dive specifically into the subject of male versus female values. I'll start by giving two exemples. Have you ever seen anyone anywhere saying that jews are misandrists for cutting their sons penises? Of course not. It’s their tradition. Nothing wrong with that. However, islamic nations whose women wear gowns and cover their heads or faces are misogynist ones. Although they are both traditions, some argue that the latter example is bad because women are forced to wear those garments. Interestingly enough, a jew boy can’t opt out of their tradition (since it’s performed at a very young age).
But what’s really interesting to me is that the western world (i.e. the world that dictates what public opinion thinks) acts as if such gender differences were actually its own problem, when the subject envolves females. Another set of examples. Some tribes in sub-Saharan Africa circumcise their girls. Words in the media describe what happens with these girls as “mutilation”, for instance. No-one denies that this is outrageous, right? Well, if I were to disagree, I’d be seen as a misogynist. However, it’s a fact that poverty, high crime rates and guns correlate to high death rates among men throughout the world. Nonetheless, I can’t seem to find any piece of information on the internet that states: guns are misandrists, or poverty is a worse burden for men etc. Nevertheless, the western world seem to embrace this “fight against female mutilation in Africa”, in a culture that has nothing to do with their own. On the other hand, no-one else gets to tell the western world that they actually should make marriage arrangements for their daughters when they are young, as a LOT of people in India do.
Additionally and curiously enough, death by guns happens in a much higher rate than female circumcisions. Yet the former is not a gender issue, whereas the latter is.
In sum, we can infer that the western world dictates what's right or wrong. Also we can infer that the western world is more concerned about female issues than male issues. Thus, our world becomes a feminine one.
Funny, isn’t it?
[–]VikaWiklet1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I would agree that large, plugged in chunks of the world, due to the increasing prevalence of mass communication disseminating Western cultural mores (think of the penetration of fluff like Baywatch, for example) are on a trend towards 'feminization' -- I am not making any judgement towards this process at this point, simply stating that, yes, in many places it IS happening. However, there is a parallel process that involves trauma to the thin veneer of feminized society through events such as war, civil war, natural disaster. If you look at countries which, in the past generation, have gone through war (sometimes repeatedly) on their own soil, for example, Serbia or Gruzija, there tends to be a natural move towards a de-feminization of the culture, to men being real men, and not in some posturing, pseudo-macho way, but in the traditional, responsible modes of Alpha behavior.
[–]Mr_Bell1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
But that's simply because times are rough. I doubt women pre- and post-WWI would have married hipsters, if such characters existed.
But as things get better, male values are not needed anymore.
[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I concur.
[–]redpill806 points7 points8 points 10 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
From the outside's perspective, this is a hate group. The perception is that the men here think being assholes, mean, deceptive, rude, and generally shitty people (rapeyTM ) is the way to be "alpha" and that women (and society as a whole) like these traits. When you start with that perception, you will dismiss pretty much any comment coming out of here.
So TBP laughs at TRP because all they see are a bunch of douchebags self-fellating to their own cause. Humans are funny; when there's a group of people we don't like, we are far more likely to dislike the words coming from that group. The premise is that TRP is evil, the next step is to validate those feelings by finding misogynistc comments. pretty much everything on here has the potential to be interpreted that way.
[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Because there is a vocal minority of bitter dick heads that makes us look bad.
[–]soincrediblylost5 points6 points7 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I think that /r/theredpill is a strange thing that's changing the more people it attracts.
This subreddit seemingly blew up in the last 2 years. I remember some old stuff from Athol Kay, a guy who had a blog who I'm pretty sure coined the term theredpill, and a lot of it was just more so examining the sexes and how to be a good dude. At the heart of it, it was relationship hacks, tips, and tricks for guys, based on experience and facts, and a lot of people's personal anecdotes. It was guys who wanted to be teachers, or mentors.
So what the red pill was, was having a mentor who showed you how to improve.
But slowly, a huge shift seemed to take place, and a lot of the guys that came here were guys who were burned in a relationship or held some form of resentment. The red pill switched slowly away from focussing on improving with mentors and students (the red pill reference itself was from the matrix and Morpheus teaching Neo what was going on), to being focused on stories of why no relationships should be avoided with a little Alpha/Beta quote thrown in on the end.
It started as a way to bridge the gap between the sexes, but has turned into blowing up the bridge between the sexes as more people who were burned or dependent on a relationship for happiness come here. So slowly theredpill has come to be about how women suck rather than what it started out as.
As more people come here, and more men came here thinking that everything in the world that's wrong is based on women or being beta or some mix of that, rather than on focusing on how to improve.
So slowly, a second shift is taking place, this time it's with the outside world. The first shift stopped looking at how to improve ourselves in a relationship with women and started with guys saying all women are the problem. And now the second shift is taking place as that view gets out into the world.
The red pill is becoming combative because a lot of the guys here blame their problems on women or some aspect or society. And a lot of women are same on the other side.
So what's happening, is everybody who's scared to ever be hurt again is doing everything they can to assure themselves that the way they view the world (and that the other sex is responsible for all their problems) is right.
[–]Pornography_saves_li1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Great analysis. But it applies 'manosphere' wide. Incidentally, I used to edit/publish a webzine collection of blog posts I liked, called 'MRm! Magazine', and I'm recently collecting the articles into an Anthology PDF for download.
In that magazine, I believe it's in the January 2010 issue, there is an article by a guy named Hawaiian Libertarian (he still blogs) entitled 'Game is the Red Pill', so the connection is at least that old. For the record, that article predates anyone in the MRM referring to the Red Pill, and Paul and I had a discussion as to the significance of the term back in the day (I regard it as great Branding).
Might as well plug the PDF while I'm at it. The collection of articles predates what has become the Manosphere, and as far as I knew at the time (and frankly, still) I was unaware of anyone else anywhere collecting articles from the various strains of the Manosphere, so in a way, reading these anthologies will be a bit of a trip through the development of what we now take as a given.
And I did say 'Anthologies', as the second webzine I did (MenZ Magazine) spread the net a bit wider, including Roissy and the like, and that one's next after this one.
If you are well versed in the development of Game Theory / Red Pill thinking, I would be most interested in gathering PUA/Game articles together as well. I started with David D' Angelo a few years ago, but never really documented anything.
[–]TRP Vanguard: "Dark Triad Expert"IllimitableMan15 points16 points17 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Why is r/theredpill so loathed?
There's three reasons
People hate the idea that men can "win" at dating, hookup culture, LTR, etc. We go a step beyond seddit in this regard - seddit will say, "Hey, here are some tricks that men can use to win the game against these stacked odds." TRP says "the natural state of things is for man to win in these fields by default. By simply behaving masculine (ie not giving any commitment away until you are getting the sex and personality you want) you win. Which is why people will hate on TRP more than PUA even. PUA on some level acknowledges than women are on the pedestal or at least equal footing, by saying "you need to learn all these tools to charm the girl". TRP says that men are on the pedestal as soon as they internalize who they are as men. This deeply offends beta males and women the most.
People have been groomed for a long, long time to have the maximum appeal to authority and mainstream. Women especially. If a feminist twitter celeb or Jezebel writer writes about how TRP is evil, it is not only as convincing as having logically reached this conclusion from unbiased interpretation of our material, it is MORE CONVINCING. Appeal to authority and argument ad populum are exponentially more powerful than independent thought. If 10 twitter celebs say X, you need 100 events to occur right in front of your eyes to jar you out of blind belief. If 10 twitter celebs, 15 facebook friends, 5 news articles, and 50 upvoted reddit comments say "TRP is evil" you would literally need MILLIONS of pieces of contradictory real life data to change a indoctrinated female's mind.
We have trolls. Even websites I like troll too much. We troll, they cherrypick the trolled articles to bitch about, then our sites have to troll harder to acheive the same viewcount. You also have to combine this with the fact that we live in a time where appreciation of satire, parody, and other forms of subversive humor are at an all-time low.
[–]W-Z-R6 points7 points8 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
All things like not providing support and validation unless you are getting sex, not marrying a women who has ridden dozens of different Alpha dicks etc etc all run counter to the interests of women (which is why the feminists never debate us logically) so of course nomatter how true it is, they will oppose this. The ironic thing is, lots of men loath us too simply because biologically men are hardwired to protect and look after women so anything which makes these delicate snowflakes angry just has to be terrible.
[–]Endorsed Contributormonsieurhire23 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
It's not loathed by everyone. Most people don't even know it exists. There's a vocal group of partisans that purport to loathe it.
[–]Pornography_saves_li1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
....and they are FANTASTIC advertising. :)
[–]Endorsed Contributormonsieurhire21 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
That's how I got here; people on Seddit mentioned it in the comments, along with Dark Triad, and then talked about how they shouldn't mention it. Forbidden knowledge.
[–]Pornography_saves_li0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Exactly. Even better, it's a 'rebel' image, a 'fuck you if you don't like it' stance, which we all know is utterly disgusting to women. Some of the most eager to talk about Red Pill things with me are women, usually with a mixture of 'nawalt' (which really means she is not 'like that'), fascination at how at odds the info is with 'common wisdom' yet clicks in their own heads as self-evident, and ravenous hunger for info on how to understand men, the male sex drive, and the reasons men seem to be ignoring what they are supposed to do.
Even the people that hate the concept can't stop talking about it, and once you know enough, you can't stop seeing it in daily life. Game is a misnomer. It should be called Game Changer.
Koolaid drinkers get butt hurt when you don't join or validate them.
[–]ThumoticJonFrost256 points7 points8 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
"Truth is always dangerous. Contrary to common belief, it does not always prevail. But it's always a bad idea to turn your back on it."
[–]Gorgonzola546 points7 points8 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Truth hurts.
[–]ovie127 points8 points9 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
It stands in contrast to the leftist hivemind that is the majority of reddit.
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
People hate hate hate to change a concept they've taken for granted all their lifes. Things become part of your reality and once they do, some people just can't let go of them, they'll hold on to it, even when presented with massive evidence against their version of reality.
I think of them as weak and pathetic, because they prefer to lie to themselves all their life, all because it's easier for them.
The guys here were presented with the same evidence, yet chose to accept it as the truth, and change their beliefs accordingly. You can say whatever you want about the people in this subreddit, but they're stronger than the ones outside it, that chose to ignore reality.
[–]DevilishRogue[S] 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
So in essence the faith versus evidence argument? In other words you believe that those who are choosing to go against the red pill do understand it but reject it because of their ideological zeal?
[–][deleted] 6 points7 points8 points 10 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
Maybe not entirely. There might be some that see our arguments, and consider them to be invalid (for whatever reason) and therefore choose to believe something else, and that's fine, but that's maybe 10%.
The other 90% are just going to be like: "THEY HATE WOMEN! YOU CAN'T TREAT WOMEN LIKE THAT! MISOGYNY!" And walk away. The actual arguments can't even get through to them, because they're immediately filtered by their biased brains.
[–]DevilishRogue[S] 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
So if I'm reading this correctly 90% of those exposed to the red pill who refute it refuse to even rationally consider or debate it's merits and the other 10% are unwilling/unable to grasp the concept in spite of rationally considering it because of their ideological shortcomings?
[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Almost.
90% refuse to rationally consider. (This is what's used in mass media for example. Nobody will listen to your arguments anymore, once you're labeled as a pedophile, neonazi, redpiller or whatever. You might have the best arguments in the world, but people just don't listen to you anymore. This exact concept is what the biggest part of the manipulation of the masses is built on nowadays).
10% take a look at the arguments and decide against trp, some might even have good reasons for it, I don't know.
Note: This is just my gut feeling I have, from years and years dealing with lots of people and experiencing how they work, so don't nail me on those numbers.
It's hardly possible to do a scientific study on this so opinions and gut feeling is fine. But just so as I can check my understanding of what you mean, you're saying that the majority of people who refute the red pill haven't engaged with it's precepts because they've heard the red pill is bad from others and so refuse to listen to it's message? That's interesting because it may be that if the message was imparted through a different interlocutor they might be receptive to it.
[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
That's exactly what I meant. I'm absolutely convinced, that if you could have a personal 1on1 talk with somebody that would otherwise reject trp (because he's part of the 90%), the chance they might accept it would be a lot higher. Once again, the problem is mass media. A small number of people are in charge of >70% of all the media people consume. These people can easily create presidents, start wars, or inject feminist beliefs into the minds of people.
[–]RedFlagsAreGood3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
if the message was imparted through a different interlocutor they might be receptive to it
I have seen red-pill precepts upvoted on other subs, but it only happens when the comment is from someone not known to be a red-piller and the commenter doesn't use any redpill terminology.
[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link
Here's why: while there is a LOT of very positive things about TRP, like embracing masculinity, self-improvement, being assertive, embracing responsibility of your own needs and dreams, and taking women off of a pedestal and treating them like the fallible human creatures they are, there is also a portion of the community with very negative, destructive views. I want to call them a minority but I don't think they are.
These negative views include that all women are whores, it's ok to manipulate women into sex, celebrating "alpha" behaviour that in reality just makes you look like a needy asshole (like "The Dark Triad" personality, which a lot of fucking idiots are fascinated with for whatever reason), etc.
Now when someone unfamiliar with TRP steps into a topic and sees these latter viewpoints being expressed, it's impossible to tell that these are "fringe opinions" rather than being "core ideas" (whatever that means) of TRP, so they pick up the idea that TRP advocates "manipulating women (who are all dirty whores btw) into sex by acting like an abusive narcissistic sociopath."
Another reason is that reddit is a hub for left-wing ideologies, especially feminism. Any community that openly mocks feminism (as they should be mocked) gets marginalised. Same case for r/mensrights and r/seduction and the like.
[–]DevilishRogue[S] -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Now when someone unfamiliar with TRP steps into a topic and sees these latter viewpoints being expressed, it's impossible to tell that these are "fringe opinions" rather than being "core ideas"
A lot of the responses have suggested that this isn't the case and that people critical of the red pill are either being selective with their evidence in order to bolster their own prejudices or following the herd mentality like sheep. Certainly I think you'd have to be more than a little slow or blinded by ideology not to be able to make that differentiation.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I daresay there's more than a little confirmation bias involved in these people's reactions
[–]masterrod6 points7 points8 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
TRP is all about stripping women of their "power".. how could women like that? Especially when many women are so pious that they think everything they do is right cause it feels right. haha...
I think it's great.. i don't agree with everyone here.. but I like the aim of the subreddit..
[–]Divinityfound3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I think that it really is more that to them, we are the "they are not apart of our ideology" group.
Feminism strongly invests into the idea that their version of equality is the only right idea, and anything that diverts from that is just wrong. So they take offense to our premise:
It is okay for Men and Women to be different.
And worse, in their minds, we advocate self improvement of our strengths, and minimization of our weaknesses. But we also advocate the same for women.
We also advocate the idea that nothing is sacred, and that all things have certain value.
Not to mention that a lot of what we say can be summed up like this by women and overly invested young men:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQl5aYhkF3E
[–]UnimpressedAsshole3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
“The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it.” -George Orwell
[–]AliasSigma4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
As somebody who has found this subreddit a few days ago from a link, let me explain to you guys what I found recently on the front page.
A guy posted about finally saying no to his girlfriend. Rather than be happy that he was finally not being a "beta", you guys were encouraging him to turn it around and start having her do things for him.
Somebody posted about how they were seeing a girl and that their form of leading was completely ignoring her if they she did not do what he wanted.
A post of a quote about how young women really want old men that reads like it was written by a former high school athlete going through his mid life crisis and trying to regain his sexuality.
Somebody posting about how the girl he was seeing was manipulating a guy to be her girlfriend and he casually mentions how he's been putting off making it an LTR and uses this as justification.
A lot of this looks manipulative because, hell, it is manipulative.
[–]AliasSigma1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
That sounds like trying to justify negative behavior.
And the problem with that is there seems to be a lot of hate against women for doing the same thing. Is their manipulation not as right as your manipulation?
[–]AliasSigma1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I think you misunderstand. The disdain is directed at the fact that women deny this manipulation while expecting to reap the benefits of it.
I don't think that's justification for anything but calling them out on it.
TRP is about recognizing the correct way to attract women.
While I agree there is probably overlap, you just generalized about 3.5 billion people with that statement with. This boiling down to use strategies that I still don't even believe work. Not because I don't think they can, but because of the contrast between "X woman is independent and has a nice job" and "I can get her to do what I want by giving her a cold shoulder" which, if it doesn't work for a toddler, shouldn't work for an adult.
[–]DevilishRogue[S] -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Those going through the five stages of grief or "venting". Do you think that observers knowingly equate that experience with the red pill or just see it and mistakenly assume that is what the red pill is about?
Because you are totally lost in irony. I can take good portion of your posts and replace what you are bitching at (usually women) with TRPers and it still will make sense
Exhibit A:
Women TRP have natural predispositions too: Attention-seeking, curious, emotional, irrational, solipsistic, unable to constructively deal with stress/criticism, likes to blame others [feminism], etc. Almost all of these can be subjected to a combination of operant conditioning.
Curious is overstretching though.
Exhibit B: It's a circle-jerk sub that helps frustrated people to vent about The Red Pill and blame men [feminism] for all their problems in their lives. Remember that is easier to bitch about what other people do/say/think than to try to better yourself. Like overweight bitter women [Terper] with as bad BO as attitude blame the patriarchy [feminism, beta, white knights] because men [women] don't find her lard ass attractive.
Exhibit B:
It's a circle-jerk sub that helps frustrated people to vent about The Red Pill and blame men [feminism] for all their problems in their lives.
Like overweight bitter women [Terper] with as bad BO as attitude blame the patriarchy [feminism, beta, white knights] because men [women] don't find her lard ass attractive.
Exhibit C
Because they're fucking detestable [Existence of this thread is proof], unappreciative [women = hamsters], self-entitled["alpha fucks, beta bucks"], lacking femininity[masculinity - possession of the qualities traditionally associated with men. Since "being detest" is not one of them, applies], unskilled["halp me how to be alpha"], obnoxious [e.g. negging]... western women (mainly women of the anglosphere) are the fucking joke of the world followed closely by the feminist bitches [MRA or PUA] in western europe and Scandinavia (at least they are better educated than anglosphere women though) [not really applicable]
Exhibit D:
Women (TRPers) don't know what they want. They know what they think they want, what they say they want, what they're supposed to say they want[TRP is all saying what real alpha should want and do], but they don't know what they actually want. And when you put to text what women [TRPer] actually want and what actually works for them, they sound like crazy children, especially when you put the truth alongside how they act and what they do with themselves. Women hate any source of information that makes them sound stupid, and they hate TRP even more because it actually works (but only on those other stupid girls!)
After browsing posts and comments, it's hard to not to come to conclusion that TRP is not The Red Pill, but The Redneck's Projections.
(No links as they disallowed)
[–]HatchbacksandTattoos1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
They are close minded and picture a bunch of guys who worship Mystery. If you buy into the red pill philosophy you can actually see it work in real life, whether it is you practicing it or others. It's interesting to think that these people that loathe TRP and think we are all misogynists and what not, see the application of certain red pill ways of acting in their daily lives and see the power and effect it has, but they can't see why it works...
[–]Whyver1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
It's a threat to social order and recent cultural trends.
[–]jorgander4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
TLDR: People don't like the truth
Consider the name "the red pill" and Neo's reaction upon swallowing it. There was disbelief and anger before acceptance.
Even if they have some inkling that TRP might be correct, it is easier to engage in polite fiction than consider the depravity people are capable of. TRP cares little about politics, feelings, social boundaries, or any qualifying characteristics (gender, age, skin color, nationality, etc.). No one is beyond scrutiny or deconstruction, as it should be. However, people don't like when their pedestal or "mystique" is explained away with a few simple words.
The men the American people admire the most extravagantly are the greatest liars; the men they detest the most violently are those who try to tell them the truth (H.L. Mencken)
I've found this to be true in my own life. Being honest gets me labeled an inconsiderate asshole. I know this isn't RP in the same sense, but it is the same in that people have a bad reaction to hearing something they don't like. Much later some of the women have told me they appreciated that I was honest with them about my unavailability, but I can tell they don't. They'd rather I told them what they wanted to hear.
Another great quote:
The powers of astute observation are often mistaken for cynicism by those who do not possess the powers of astute observation. (George Bernard Shaw)
From what I've seen, a lot of times people will exaggerate things here to illustrate a concept. It comes across very harsh to the "untrained eye."
[–]complete_asshole_4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Morpheus: The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around, what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it.
[Neo's eyes suddenly wander towards a woman in a red dress]
Morpheus: Were you listening to me, Neo? Or were you looking at the woman in the red dress?
Neo: I was...
Morpheus: [gestures with one hand] Look again.
[the woman in the red dress is now Agent Smith, pointing a gun at Neo's head; Neo ducks]
Morpheus: Freeze it.
[Everybody and everything besides Neo and Morpheus freezes in time]
Neo: This... this isn't the Matrix?
Morpheus: No. It is another training program designed to teach you one thing: if you are not one of us, you are one of them.
[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Why do they try to paint the red pill as something it isn't?
Because there are cases where users on this sub-reddit do say some absurd, hateful, or horrific things.
Unfortunately, when you have a political axe to grind, that's what grabs the attention. The rest of us who are well-adjusted men who do NOT 'hate' women but realize there is a gender dynamic at play and want to learn how to exploit it for mutual benefit get drowned out by the shrieks and howls.
See: the entire field of public relations.
[–]DevilishRogue[S] 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
By that argument opposition to TRP isn't necessarily wilfully misrepresenting things but more stemming from selective evidence to support pre-existing prejudices against it. Zealotry, I guess you could call it.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Willful misrepresentation or not, who can say for sure? But if you peruse The Blue Pill, for example, you will see targets being drawn around certain quotes a la the Texas sharpshooter.
This does not lessen specific criticism, nor is this approach unique to TRP detractors (as they would say the same about the content of this sub), but it does illustrate one major tactic being used in the broader political game. It's fun to watch, but it does result in needless polarization that encourages talking past one another.
As always, YMMV.
[–]DevilishRogue[S] 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
I did look at the blue pill once a while back but didn't see anything interesting there. It seemed more like a circlejerk than anything else, trying to define the red pill by how it opposed it rather than what the red pill actually was.
[–]taco_roco8 points9 points10 points 10 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link
As someone who's been lurking for a couple months now, and still on the fence on how to define TRP, I'll say this:
It's not that the TRP is wrong (all the time), it's just put in an asshole manner. People don't respond to that well, be it truthful or not.
Side note, the contradictions that pop up from time to time are a bloody mess..
Women are evil because they try and manipulate men (i.e. shit-tests), but when men do it it's perfectly okay and should be encouraged.
Back to lurking...
[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
What type of manipulation are men encouraged to do here?
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
I think dread game counts as a form of manipulation. I see zero rationalization that supports this strategy, from a long term or short term perspective. Nexting should happen in every case I can imagine.
Women manipulate with sex whether consciously or not. TRP teaches us that we can manipulate with commitment to level the playing field.
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
I have not gotten the sense that people here attribute evilness to the manipulative nature of some women. I think it is recognized as a neutral truth and that such unconscious female manipulation can be effectively countered by conscious and deliberate male manipulation or rather action/inaction. Maybe a long term RP member can correct me if i'm wrong.
[–]DevilishRogue[S] 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I have not gotten the sense that people here attribute evilness to the manipulative nature of some women
Proof that women are evil.
Ah the substitution method.
[–]taco_roco0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I thin that's closer to the truth, however I don't think either should be condoned (male or female manipulation), because it just perpetuates a negative feedback loop of shitty dating/ONS tactics.
Woman manipulates man ==> Man left with a bitter view of women/dating ==> Man manipulates other women ==> women manipulate other men ==> rinse, repeat, recycle. It's a flawed system that too many people subscribe to, consciously or not.
[–]DoctorsHateHim1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
They are not evil for doing it, it is only their nature. Many are probably not even aware they are doing it.
Men just have to realize that women do it.
[–]pro_skub5 points6 points7 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Stockholm syndrome methinks. Simplifying a lot, women are inherently more evil than men. Many men refuse calling them out of their bullshit to avoid the can't-get-laid shaming and instead side with them, which also brings them a marginally increase in the amount of pussy they get (normally, at a high price anyway).
[–][deleted] 8 points9 points10 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
to avoid the can't-get-laid shaming
This is one of reddit's favourites.
You complain about feminism or tell one that you prefer other countries' girls. Some redditor tells you that is because you can't get girls. And then he gets upvoted to the sky.
I'm only ever expecting a rational response when posting here. All other subreddits are satire to me and are only worthy to be used for trolling.
women are inherently more evil than men
I can see why some people might take umbrage at statements like that (regardless of whether it is true or not). If I understand your comment correctly you say women hamster to avoid accepting the red pill but men think they have better prospects as blue pillers?
[–]pro_skub3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Not exactly. Stockholm syndrome is a psychological coping mechanism when something bad happens to you and you can't see a way out, so you start to side with that source of badness.
I don't think women are "evil"; I think they score lower than men on honesty, reliability, kindness on average.
[–]Tastysalad1010 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
It's funny because i never heard about TRP until someone was saying how bad it was in some comments so i checked it out to see how bad it was now i've been subbed here for like 3 months.
They fear the implications of our veracity.
[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
For the same reason memes about the Friend Zone get brigaded and downvoted into oblivion on /r/adviceanimals.
If you were successfully running a con and someone else started pointing out the tenets of your con, you would want to shut that person up.
TRP debunks the Feminist con.
[–]Hateblade1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Because it's something that is real, cold and hard and unyielding, as opposed to warm and fake and emotion-charged like 99% of everything else out there in the world, AKA, the blue pill.
[–]Mouthpiece2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Because it threatens their own world view, one they depend on others believing.
[–]remotemaster2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
first they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
looks like stage 3
[–]FuckOffSRSCunts1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
It's about looking at things objectively when it comes to subjects people speak about only with emotion. To outsiders it might seem like pessimism, but reality isn't kind. It's cold and ruthless, and that's the red pill.
Meh, not something I use too much of my brain power on. I could not care less what the typical reddit user thinks.
[–]TheDoctorMouse-1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
For lots, I expect that they were either told that TRP is full of scum and villainy. Others probably read the headlines here on a... less wholesome day and were unenthusiastic about the titles (lots of alpha/beta, slut and whore words, etc.). The tone here can at times be a bit angry or frustrated, and little to nothing is sugar-coated.
I personally find these to be arguments from ignorance or worse, hypersensitivity. However, there are in my opinion a few legit complaints that people may have.
There's a large ratio of anecdotal evidence to scientific research posted here with regards to some of the foundational philosophies of human behavior on TRP, in terms of quantity at least. I personally find this a bit of a turn off, but that may just be my background as a psychology undergraduate.
The language here is rather bro-ey and certainly can carry a know-it-all patronizing tone. To a person unfamiliar with the more underlying ideas of this subreddit, this may be alienating, especially since words with heavy cultural connotations are thrown around lots (e.g., slut).
TRP has a stated goal of helping individuals with self-improvement in a post-feminist world where culture and laws may be unequally skewed against men. /r/MensRights specifically focuses on making society and law more fair for men. This disconnect in focus can be grounds for conflict, especially when the former advocates for exploiting gender differences in society while the latter advocates nullification of gender differences legally.
Collectively, TRP needs to decide which if any of these factors are deserving of change. Personally I only think the first point should be addressed.
Anyway, just my 2 cents.
[–]vaker0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
large ratio of anecdotal evidence to scientific research posted here
As opposed to feminism which has zero(0) actual scientific proof supporting it.
[–]TheDoctorMouse0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Don't sink to their level, I suppose.
Why do you hold this view? Even a cursory analysis shows that this isn't so, so why do you hold onto this view in the face of contrary evidence?
[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Cognitive dissonance. Everything they see here rings true but goes directly against everything they've been told and think they've known.
I understand what you are saying but would like to get your take on "why" that happens. Obviously not everyone is able to adjust our beliefs based on new evidence as easily as some are but is there a propensity amongst those of certain beliefs? Do they have higher "sunk costs"? Or is it the opposite, they do not care enough i.e. a lack of empathy?
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
It's not that you're loathed. It's more that you're sort of the laughing stock of Reddit in my experience. Seriously when I first heard of this place I thought it was a parody subreddit "The Red Pill", "Alpha" or "Beta" it's awesomely hilarious. It's like reading greentexts from 4chan but in self post form.
[–]namae_nanka2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
because you guys literally advocate treating women like dogs
err no, worse than dogs, for dogs are loyal.
[–]sillypuppy2151 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Yeah see, those are the sorts of misogynistic statements people have a problem with.
[–]myfriendscantknow0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Well there you go. How are you guys seriously confused?
[–]namae_nanka1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
http://www.amazon.com/The-Tyranny-Ambiguity-Development-Procedural/dp/1901240169
"treating women like dogs" is a loaded phrase. People in the west are generally very nice to dogs. I assume you mean the rewarding good behavior and penalizing bad behavior elements? I have no problem with that in principle and can't see why anyone else would either. It's a basic tenet of civilized society that you reward behavior you wish to encourage and discourage behavior you don't want.
The blue pill sidebar doesn't offer anything insightful or informative but I've subscribed to /r/purplepilldebate and will have a lurk there for a bit. Thanks for posting.
[–]sillypuppy2151 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
The problem with treating a human like a dog is that humans aren't dogs. You are dehumanizing women by "training" them. And yes, it is a loaded statement, but it wasn't an inference. There have literally been posts here comparing how you should treat your gf like your dog (except dogs are loyal hurr durr). The methods that are advocated would work on a dog, because there is a clear master-pet relationship there, but to use those same things on a woman is borderline emotionally abusive.
You are dehumanizing women by "training" them... The methods that are advocated would work on a dog, because there is a clear master-pet relationship there, but to use those same things on a woman is borderline emotionally abusive.
Encouraging desirable behavior and discouraging undesirable behavior is something both parties should do in a relationship. It is quite a stretch to suggest that it is in and of itself anything like emotionally abusive. Nor is it dehumanizing for the same reasons.
This isn't to say that some people aren't emotionally abusive or dehumanizing their partners when they misunderstand the general principles of positive/negative reinforcement. But it doesn't take a genius to differentiate between the two.
[–]AlfredTheGreatest0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
There is nothing more unpopular than the truth.
I read the perfect explanation a few days ago that pretty much sums up TRP;
"People hate to hear the truth. Lies/mistakes do not bother people, you would not scream death threats at a child who tells you 2+2=5. But a child who tells their mother she's fat? That kid's in for a world of hurt".
It's loathed because it makes many people in our society uncomfortable (women and BPs)...compounded by the fact that deep inside they know that TRP is actually the truth.
[–]DoctorsHateHim-2 points-1 points0 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Who cares if it's loathed
[–]DevilishRogue[S] 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
I don't like the idea of the truth being hated because it's unpopular. Ignorance my be blissful but it's still wrong.
[–]DoctorsHateHim2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
What I meant is: Why would one be concerned about what other people think about TRP.
Their approval hardly matters.
I get what you're saying but it still troubles me that so many people seem hostile to the truth, which is why I asked the question in the first place.
[–]sagginpus1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Seriously... Been telling one of my best friends about it, and even though he is married I feel like there is some good info on gender roles that all men should understand (even if they choose not to love by those rules). He's my boy, and his wife is really cool, but I know that he is beta when it comes to a lot of things with his relationship. His attitude is "I have to please my wife and make her happy in order to have a good relationship, and TRP is all a bunch of mysoginistic shit that is counterproductive to what I want to achieve." But then again, he doesn't read the articles I send him either... I don't get it. Maybe some of the "bros nailing dimes" talk doesn't sit well with a married guy, but at least try to abstract the points and realize that there is some base human gender role shit that is relevant to sexuality and therefore maybe some shit that could put your LTR into perspective.
[–]LuciusExitius2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
The biggest complaint I hear is actually about the "Women, the most responsible teenager in the house" on our side bar. They think we hate women and that we are all rapists. They couldn't differentiate between someone venting and getting upset and the core values of TRP which is basically, men and women are different, have a strong frame, be the best person you can be physically and mentally, and strive to be a leader. But if you watch was /r/thebluepill posts its usually a selected comment or a post taken way out of context. Its like they don't understand that anyone can post on these subs.
They couldn't differentiate between someone venting and getting upset and the core values of TRP
But is this "couldn't" or "could but wilfully misrepresent"?
[–]LuciusExitius1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Both
“First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, and then you win.”
It's just http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance plain and simple.
Holding two contradictory sets of beliefs is extremely uncomfortable for a human being, it can't be done. So they'd rather trust the devil they know than the devil they don't.
The intense backlash is also just that, coupled with jealousy to an extent. Here we are living by our own rules that we defined through science and the collected observations of thousands of men, that is in direct defiance of the principals engrained in their minds. They hear this and hate it, because we are getting what we want in life by doing everything that they cannot do. To them it's simply unfair that we can do this and get away with it, when they have to continue pretending that the shit they shovel is worth its weight in gold if they want to keep their world intact.
Notice the key marker of someone "swallowing" the red pill: it's when society's rules finally took everything from a man that he usually makes it here. When he has nothing left to lose he no longer has to desperately cling on to defunct ideas and live in a perpetual myth. There is nothing more that society can do to him, so he begins to look at things clearly for the first time.
[–]MarkarthAlchemist0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
They are loathed because of self-hating white knights who are deluded to the extent that they think "beta game" gets you anywhere.
Also, Reddit is a hotbed of trannies who are the most insane feminists around other than, well, feminists.
[–][deleted] -2 points-2 points-2 points 10 years ago | Copy Link
[–]griesuschrist 2 points2 points2 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I don't understand the plebs that stop in here with their shiny white armor. Idgaf about your subreddits so I don't visit them.
Maybe because I don't see them as a threat.
[–]theguynamedtim0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link
Did you really just use the word pleb? Lmfao
[–]DevilishRogue[S] -2 points-1 points0 points 10 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link
I'm not exactly a regular here so I've not seen any examples of treating women like shit. I've read a few "Field Reports" where the guy hasn't always been the perfect gentleman and a few vents from people letting off steam but venting aside, certainly nothing that I've interpreted as misogyny. If you could provide a couple I, for one, would like to see them. Thanks.
[–][deleted] 1 points1 points1 points 10 years ago | Copy Link
[–]DevilishRogue[S] -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
I don't know what I was expecting when I clicked that...
If you are a regular there would you mind digging out a link or two to examples that demonstrate your point?
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
http://i.imgur.com/8HdDGem.jpg
[–]DevilishRogue[S] 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Thanks for posting. I take from that you are referring to misogynistic attitudes rather than the behavior?
honestly i just gave you the first thing i found from TRP... youve started a rather interesting thread here and i'm trying to figure out all the hate/love for this sub as well
[–]DevilishRogue[S] 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
I've been lurking here for some time and although I'm not a regular, other than the aforementioned "venting" I've genuinely not seen anything that I'd deem to be advocating misogyny/women-hatred. If anything I'd say the main theme towards women has been one of respect for what they actually are rather than gender-role fetishization.
[–]cmcm771 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
respect for what they actually are rather than gender-role fetishization
I've been lurking here too for some time. Thank you for this phrase because I've been trying to succinctly explain TRP. I think this phrase is the ideal or goal of TRP - the "unplugging" from gender-role fetishization. Unfortunately, in my opinion, it often leaks over into misogyny. This is why I'm not a regular here.
In that context I better understand the misogyny criticisms made against this subreddit, although I maintain that this is as much more about bro-y language and venting rather than any actual hatred of women.
[–]watermelonpickle-5 points-4 points-3 points 10 years ago (21 children) | Copy Link
Because almost nothing posted here is peer-reviewed or based on peer-reviewed research, yet you all claim to have this vast amount of knowledge that AFCs don't get.
[–]DevilishRogue[S] 5 points6 points7 points 10 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link
I can't imagine it would be easy to obtain funding for a lot of this research. Academia is famous for being progressive and if feminism is anti-red pill it's not likely to change any time soon with the entrenched hold feminism has in universities.
[–]watermelonpickle-2 points-1 points0 points 10 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link
What are you talking about? Plenty of universities have done research on human sexuality, they teach classes on it, they teach classes on adolescent development, gender differences and personality too. The fact that none of the research supports the things you are saying doesn't mean no research is being carried out. Science is bending over backwards to prove yourself wrong, not cherry-picking anecdotes to suit your argument.
[–]DevilishRogue[S] 3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
Plenty of universities have done research on human sexuality, they teach classes on it, they teach classes on adolescent development, gender differences and personality too.
I did my undergrad thesis on this subject, but I'm talking about the political correctness of researching data that has a hypothesis counter to prevailing feminist argument.
Science is bending over backwards to prove yourself wrong, not cherry-picking anecdotes to suit your argument.
Science, yes. Social-science, not so much.
[–]watermelonpickle-2 points-1 points0 points 10 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
Why would it be politically incorrect to research something? So long as the methods are ethical.
Social science is not exempt from the method, there's just a few more quacks slipping through, who think it is exempt, which is where communities like this come from.
[–]DevilishRogue[S] 3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
It's obtaining funding for unpopular research that is the problem, although I imagine that a lot of peer review would be ideologically hostile as well.
[–]watermelonpickle-1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
I see where you are coming from, and I am just as interested in this stuff as you are, I would like to see a lot of the ideas here get tested and published in a peer-reviewed journal. Do you think there's a way of getting the funding for this kind of research? Maybe by offering it as testing a hypothesis congruent with the popular opinion and finding it incorrect it would open the door for the unpopular research. Just a thought.
If I knew a way to get funding for this I'd have written a book and be on the chat show circuit already! Certainly research grants would be hard to come by, fund-raising unlikely to work and corporate sponsorship too risky for most. Individual private benefactors perhaps? I honestly don't know. Too many powerful players see this as a hot potato.
[–]watermelonpickle-1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
I was sort of thinking the same thing, privately funded research. I do think if you could get enough going to just try to show the current model of feminism and gender roles is wrong that would be the first step, and then you could maybe get people open up to your hypotheses. I mean, even though I don't agree 100% with TRP, feminism is definitely not true, although both may include some partial truths. Either way, I want to see knowledge on this subject advance.
In an ideal world it might happen but I think there is a looooonnnnggg way to go before this will even be a possibility. Feminism is so heavily entrenched in not just academia but throughout society that someone willing and able to fund such research would be as rare as hen's teeth (not least of all because to get to hat position in the first place they'd have had to toe the line or have been boycotted and not made it to that point in the first place).
[–]DoctorsHateHim0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link
You can test all of this yourself and then come back with results. Many do and only report back with positive stories.
[–]watermelonpickle-5 points-4 points-3 points 10 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link
One of the fundamentals of science is that the one making the claim has to provide evidence before the claim can be taken seriously, the burden of proof is not on anybody else.
[–]DoctorsHateHim3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link
And this is science since... when?
Feel free to accept the teachings of fellow RedPillers and start to better your life or wait for the peer reviewed article in Scientific American. It's your call really.
[–]watermelonpickle1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
He asked why TRP is loathed, and I said why, because it's making truth claims without undergoing scientific method. That's all.
[–]DoctorsHateHim1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
Well, it is not a double blind test, but I'd say multiple field reports using the same technique working is good enough for me.
If I always waited for the scientific method... man that would be one slow life.
[–]watermelonpickle-2 points-1 points0 points 10 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
Cool, if you think it works for you then enjoy it. I didn't make a claim about whether or not it works, only that a lack of real data is why the sub is loathed.
[–]DoctorsHateHim1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
I don't really think that's why though. If the problem was missing scientific peer reviewed articles then a lot of other subs would get the same hate.
[–]watermelonpickle0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Not all subs make as tremendous of truth claims as this one.
[–]DoctorsHateHim-1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Because its field tested
TRP cannot fund scientific studies, nor is there a need for it. You are encouraged to try it out and see for yourself. Then report back and tell everyone if it works or not.
I have not seen one TRP tip that has not tremendously helped me.
Well, I guess this discussion is kind of futile.
[–]DevilishRogue[S] 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Could you expand on this a little more?
So bro-y behavior here gets picked up on by critics and disseminated more widely to leave an impression of TRP that is based on those who have only partially understood the precepts and are more interested in bragging here and one-upmanship? I think that's actually a really good answer and also leads naturally in to why it isn't so much an issue that needs addressing i.e. kids gotta learn.
[–]Simmz-2 points-1 points0 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
For the same reason ALL truth movements are loathed....
We live in a world of lies.
[–][deleted] -8 points-8 points-8 points 10 years ago | Copy Link
[–]RomusLupos10 points11 points12 points 10 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
Stop using the term "rapey". It downplays a VERY SERIOUS event into a joke. As far as "untruths", well I have yet to see any evidence against TRP being accurate. Claiming "NAWALT" is NOT evidence.
[–][deleted] -9 points-9 points-9 points 10 years ago | Copy Link
[–]RomusLupos6 points7 points8 points 10 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
The joke is taking a word to describe a deplorable act, and ending it with a light-hearted "-y" sound so that it becomes "cute".
If you cannot see that, you deserve all the negative Karma you can obtain...
[–]DoctorsHateHim7 points8 points9 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
You know exactly what he means. Stop acting stupid.
[–]RomusLupos4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I've wasted enough of my attention on you. good luck with the whole "trolling" thing...
[–]DevilishRogue[S] 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Your post implies that you lurk or post here, could you provide some examples to back up your assertion? Even if it isn't "most" of what is posted here I'd be interested to see what someone who disagrees with the red pill sees as being untrue (or pro-date rape) here.
To those that have downvoted this comment, please don't I'd really like to see what those who do disagree with the red pill have to inform their views. Thanks.
[–]1Zackcid2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Bluepillers aren't the best to ask this about. They dedicate their lives to trolling TRP, they are highly biased. If you want an external opinion, you'd best ask users that don't belong to any of these two subs.
Everyone else hates TRP because feminists hate TRP and feminists dictate the public discourse on how men and women should act together. So if you are RP, you are anti-feminist, and thus you HAVE to be anti-woman according to them. This is the sort of bully-tactics feminists use these days.
[–]BenevolentGandy-2 points-1 points0 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
This is one of the few places that are sane, but most of you deny basic things.
Things like genetics, face, body, money and status are not even mentioned. Instead it is all about game which in my opinion doesn't exist.
[–]randomkloud3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
wat.
genetics and face you can do nothing about but appearance (how you dress, how you style your hair etc), fitness, money, and status can all be improved and I have not met a single person here (besides you) who says they are not important.
genetics isnt touched on because there's really nothing you can do about it, everything else though is up to you.
[–]alfabro91-2 points-1 points0 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I'd say most guys acknowledge how accurate and correct the red pill worldview is when you talk to them in a guys only environment.
When there's a pussy present, even if its a virtual pussy on the internet like on reddit, men start acting differently. The White Knights on reddit are 20-something, nerdy, shy etc. the kind of guys who women see as their asexual friends. The White Knights think that by shitting on the red pill truth teller, they're going to raise their own value in the eyes of women.
We've all seen this dynamic in real life where a beta male thinks that by siding with the women he is raising his own value. Its the exact same process happening on a larger scale on the internet, except these internet white knights have yet to realize that getting pussy through a copper wire is physically impossible.
[+]HappyJerk-10 points-9 points-8 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
I'm going to play the devil's advocate here.
Obviously, if you ask TRP people why they are hated they are going to say that everybody else is stupid. But here is the truth:
The obvious reasons TRP is hated is because in our modern, liberal world (which reddit is an extreme example of) its simply not politically correct to say that there are any differences between men and women. There are lots of hard-core feminist-y people that deny men and women are even different in terms of physical strength. This is just a dogma of our modern times and it has the same fanatical irrational support as religion does. And of course multiply this by 1000X when the differences you are opining on cause women to be submissive to dominant men and cause women to do cruel things to men they are in relationships with.
That said, another reason people hate TRP is because this place of full of misogynistic douchebags. Most men naturally don't gravitate towards TRP ideas on their own - most men that are here are here because they've been fucked over by some woman (likewise, most hardcore feminists are only there because something caused them to hate/fear men). That's fine, but those men are probably also going to carry some emotional baggage and misguided anger. I've seen some extremely woman-hating shit on this forum which is extremely gross.
Finally, a lot of the concepts around PUA what is an "alpha male" are very complicated and they can sound extremely dumb and angry in the hands of a stupid person. I saw a post on this subreddit a few days ago by a guy who was like "Why won't my wife listen to my orders" - that is not an appealing thing for anybody to hear, much less from a guy who was unemployed and whose wife was supporting him. Likewise, I also read a "field report" here a few days ago where a guy basically admitted to raping a girl. Any community like this needs to quickly weed out its extreme/ugly/stupid members, but its not happening fast eno ugh.
That said, another reason people hate TRP is because this place of full of misogynistic douchebags.
This is the most misunderstood aspect of this subreddit. Yes, there are people that post here that are misogynistic, just like any other place.
Nothing about TRP promotes misogyny, though. Being aware of the nature of women doesn't mean that we hate women. It means we're not buying the lies that feminism has been trying to sell to us since we were children.
[–]HappyJerk-3 points-2 points-1 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Yes, there are people that post here that are misogynistic, just like any other place.
Just like any other place? You have to admit that the ratio of misogynists here is higher.
Nothing about TRP promotes misogyny, though.
I never said it did. But this place does attract a disproportionate # of misogynists and those people post misogynistic stuff.
Being aware of the nature of women doesn't mean that we hate women.
Who is "we"? Are you speaking for all Red Pillers?
Based on what? Your perception? I don't agree.
You don't seem genuinely interested in a discussion, given your nitpicking of my second to last sentence and your complete disregard for the one after it, which is exactly the reason people really hate this sub. People hate it because it doesn't fit into their belief system.
[+]HappyJerk-6 points-5 points-4 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Well yes, I base everything on my perception. That's all I really have to analyze things.
If you're really going to argue that the % of misogynists on TRP is the same as everywhere else, well I can't really argue with you.
You don't seem genuinely interested in a discussion, given your nitpicking of my second to last sentence and your complete disregard for the one after it, which is exactly the reason people really hate this sub.
I actually agree with a lot of the shit on TRP, but I don't deny that a lot of the dudes here are here because some woman fucked them up and now they have a lot of irrational hatred for women.
I also ignored your last sentence because it suffered from the same defect as the sentence before that: you are generalizing all red pillers as if they were one team with the same beliefs. No, people here have different beliefs: some of them have good beliefs and some of them have shitty beliefs.
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[–]TRP VanguardArchwinger35 points36 points37 points (7 children) | Copy Link
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[–]TRP Vanguard: "Dark Triad Expert"IllimitableMan15 points16 points17 points (0 children) | Copy Link
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