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Why aren’t more Men Going Their Own Way?

AntiAbleism
March 25, 2018
10 upvotes
/r/PurplePillDebate
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Post Information
Title Why aren’t more Men Going Their Own Way?
Author

AntiAbleism
Upvotes 10
Comments 376
Date March 25, 2018 4:34 PM UTC
(8 years ago)
Subreddit Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/871tce/why_arent_more_men_going_their_own_way/
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/why-arent-more-men-going-their-own-way.263112
https://theredarchive.com/post/263112
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Comments

[–]i_have_a_semicolonPurple Pill Woman56 points57 points58 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

They find women companionship to be a net benefit and haven't been burned badly by women as a whole. They accept a few bad women doesn't equate to swearing them off as a whole. After all there are bad men too, and they aren't one of those men, so why should they expect all women to either be good or bad? They are selective and then there's a self fufilling prophecy. They select for the right women and reap the benefits of it.

[–]TheGreasyPoleObjectively Pro-moderate filth32 points33 points34 points 8 years ago (34 children) | Copy Link

Because refusing to have a sexual relationship makes almost all humans desperately unhappy ?

[–]Nemobeenfound 7 points8 points9 points 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

You can still be MGTOW and still sleep around. As least for me MGTOW is more about saying fuck you to how I am suppose to be as a man gender role wise and doing my own thing instead.

[–]TheNewFlisker0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

So it's a protest against toxic masculinity? That's how i read it.

[–]DissentientUnplugged7 points8 points9 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It's more of a protest against institution of family in its current state.

[–]Nemobeenfound 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Masculinity isn't toxic and I can still be masculine while not being a breadwinner.

[–]blacksun92 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Not all masculinity is toxic but there is such thing as toxic masculinity

[–]Nemobeenfound 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Yes all of masculinity is toxic. If it wasn't then feminists would have pointed out positive traits in masculinity by now and not labeled all traits of masculinity as being toxic.

[–]TedescheMRA7 points8 points9 points 8 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

I beg to differ. I think a much larger proportion of people (both male and female), are actually fine without romantic love, sex, and kids, but our culture still heavily pressures people to see these things as necessary components of a happy, successful life. I suspect that, if we didn’t have those societal pressures, more people would refrain from pursuing those things out of a genuine lack of interest. Perhaps not the majority, but a much larger proportion than today.

[–]TheGreasyPoleObjectively Pro-moderate filth4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

I beg to differ. I think a much larger proportion of people (both male and female), are actually fine without romantic love, sex, and kids, but our culture still heavily pressures people to see these things as necessary components of a happy, successful life

You are misattributing that if you think that’s societal pressure. It isn’t. It’s internal genetic pressure.

Consider two animals. One with genes that put him under pressure to reproduce. Another with genes that do not do this.

Who is going to be more likely to reproduce, the first animal right ? Good. Have a cookie.

Rinse and repeat for 1,000 generations.

Now because the first animal reproduced a little more than the second in each generation... that meant his genes were more common in the next generation and the one after etc etc.

That means by this point G+1,000 every animal now has the genes that put them under pressure to reproduce.

But along comes a new mutation! This presses animal 3 even harder than animal 2 to reproduce! He does even better in copying his genes than animal 2’s genes do. So his genes spread..

At G+2000 these genes now dominate the population. But wait ! Along comes animal 4! He has a new mutation that puts him under even more pressure to reproduce than animal 3! [lots and lots of iterations later]

We’re now at G+1,000,000,000. We’ve now evolved to be humans, through approx 1,000,000 cycles just like the above. . We have such a thing as writing, and society and the internet.

Some yahoo comes along and thinks it’s not genes that pressure to reproduce. It’s society. He writes that on the internet. He’s not got any real reason to believe that, he just DOES. He has this suspicion it’s society you see. Much hilarity ensues.

I suspect that, if we didn’t have those societal pressures, more people would refrain from pursuing those things out of a genuine lack of interest. Perhaps not the majority, but a much larger proportion than today.

Not if he’s an evolved being.

[–]TedescheMRA7 points8 points9 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

By your logic, anyone who doesn’t prioritize reproduction above everything else has something wrong with them.

I never said there weren’t genetic pressures, but just because they’re in play doesn’t mean you can discount the influence of societal pressures.

When you’ve got an actual argument, rather than just an attempt to dismiss my point out of hand and refer to me as “some yahoo,” let me know.

[–]TheGreasyPoleObjectively Pro-moderate filth3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

By your logic, anyone who doesn’t prioritize reproduction above everything else has something wrong with them

No, it just means one of three things...

1) The other things he is prioritising positively impact the possibility and/or quality of his reproduction indirectly (eg Going to college).

2) The modern world has changed so much from that ancestral environment in such a short space of time that genes have not “caught up” and are now pushing him to do things in order to reproduce that no longer serve that objective (e.g. making him enjoy hunting, or have sex in an environment that includes modern contraception).

3) In order to improve his chances of him reproducing it built this big conscious brain to assist on top. That brain has developed in a way contrary to the genes original intent and genes have not yet arisen that program it back right (e.g. a conscious brain that has developed an interest in mathematics to the exclusion of everything else).

I never said there weren’t genetic pressures, but just because they’re in play doesn’t mean you can discount the influence of societal pressures.

Yes, they can be discounted. Partly because they in turn are genetic in origin... so why deal with the monkey when you can deal with the organ grinder ? .... Partly because if society decides “something different” the genes win the battle in short order and the society either changes its rules to conform to the genetic instincts (China ending one child policy?) of the society fails (USSR and collective child rearing).

Society pushes what people genes want TOO. If it doesn’t people get extremely unhappy with society and overthrow the tyrannical regime. Democracy just makes this easier.

When you’ve got an actual argument, rather than just an attempt to dismiss my point out of hand and refer to me as “some yahoo,” let me know.

I’m making arguments. I’m telling you what the answer is and providing a rationale (the genetic story) and examples (China, USSR) of it working this way in practice. I’m backing my position with rational arguments, explanations and evidence.

So far, from you, all I’ve got in return is “I suspect this is the case” and then an admonission to “not ignore societal pressure”.

So far NO rational arguments why I should do so, NO examples, NO evidence. Just an expectation on your part that I should agree with a “Suspicion” you have on the basis that you have it and have said it.

That’s exactly the kind of argument you should “dismiss out of hand”.• as it was made out of hand.

Much as you probably would if I said “nub-uh it’s genes.” and then totally failed to back that with any rationale for how it is genes and examples indicating I’m correct.

[–]MercedesBenzoAMGbringing percocets molly percocet back to ppd2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

The only reason I disagree here is that there's no evidence even in evopsych for the assertion that humans have a biological urge to parent children.

We have an urge to have sex because as far as our "lizard brains" are concerned this means we've reproduced - evolution doesn't understand what contraception is.

But that's all there is. I've had debates on here with people who heavily push the narrative that the only way to have a happy life is to reproduce because our genes force this behaviour, but I've not seen any evidence for it.

I have seen some pretty interesting papers about theories on the genetic origin of particular parenting styles and such, but I've not seen anything from an actual scientific source - not even evopsych - which says "humans are genetically hardwired to desire children" rather than "humans are genetically hardwired to bang."

Perhaps in another 1,000 generations evolution will somehow learn what a condom is and things will be different. But as it stands right now, there's no real backing for the idea that humans are genetically wired to want kids, simply because for the majority of our history we didn't need to be. The sex drive did that for us.

All this to say, the idea that the desire to be a parent is genetically passed down is not something that has any science to support it. Obviously any human that exists has ancestors who all reproduced. But many of those humans then decide they won't wish to do it themselves regardless.

So I think a lot of it is society. We're all told you must have kids to be happy and have a fulfilling life. People will say this to you even if you have mental illness that is likely to be passed down and will objectively make the child suffer. They don't care.

So people go ahead and do it. And if they didn't actually want kids and only did it because they were told to, they end up miserable and regret their decision, and they end up being terrible parents who raise fucked up kids. The existence of this phenomenon further supports the idea that no inherent genetic desire for wanting children exists.

[–]TheGreasyPoleObjectively Pro-moderate filth1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

The only reason I disagree here is that there's no evidence even in evopsych for the assertion that humans have a biological urge to parent children.

😳

But that's all there is. I've had debates on here with people who heavily push the narrative that the only way to have a happy life is to reproduce because our genes force this behaviour, but I've not seen any evidence for it.

Things like couples who wish to have kids, but cannot do so, being unhappy about that state of affairs ?

Things like couples who wish to do so, and do have kids, being happy with THAT state of affairs ?

Things like over 80% of men saying they want to be fathers ...

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/2427123

More than 8 in 10 men said they wanted to be fathers or would like to be one someday.

And 94% of women...

The National Center of Health Statistics confirms that the percentage of American women of childbearing age who define themselves as childfree (or voluntarily childless) rose sharply in the 1990s—from 2.4 percent in 1982 to 4.3 percent in 1990 to 6.6 percent in 1995.

Things like 85% of couples actually having kids, and noting that the remaining 15% include the involuntary childless.

?

Why do you think everyone’s doing this ?

All this to say, the idea that the desire to be a parent is genetically passed down is not something that has any science to support it. Obviously any human that exists has ancestors who all reproduced. But many of those humans then decide they won't wish to do it themselves regardless.

They do. If you define “many” as approx 1 in 10 or 1 in 20.

Genes aren’t perfectly good at their job (eg contraception).

So I think a lot of it is society. We're all told you must have kids to be happy and have a fulfilling life. People will say this to you even if you have mental illness that is likely to be passed down and will objectively make the child suffer. They don't care.

So when society tell people NOT to have kids and NOT to do it, they do ?

Like when China institutes the 1 child policy, people just did it.

They didn’t have to make abortions mandatory for all women under 23, IUDs mandatory after the first child, and tubal ligation sterilisation compulsory after the 2nd child ? Make removal of an IUD being a felony crime, extreme fines of 3-6 times annual income levies for unauthorised childbirth?

Seems they could have saved a lot of effort if all of that was unnecessary, as once society started pressuring Chinese men and women the other way... they just stopped wanting kids (even though society allowed them to have 1) ?

And, of course, 30 years of this policy totally succeeded in making people not want to change the policy. As we can see by the fact that they didn’t rescind it in 2010. Except they did. Because people wanted them to and it was becoming an issue for the Chinese govt.

Where society has tried to go against the genetic grain the policies required to force them to do so have had to be horrifically harsh. Which wouldn’t be the case if society was the source of the pressure to have kids in the first place. If it were people would happily comply with the new policy society pushed on them.

So people go ahead and do it. And if they didn't actually want kids and only did it because they were told to, they end up miserable and regret their decision, and they end up being terrible parents who raise fucked up kids.

I’d agree with that. But this is a tiny minority. Most people who are unhappy with kids are not so because society forced them to have them. It’s because they didn’t want them in the first place (at least at that time of their life) but got pregnant through carelessness and carried through out of personal moral obligation (or at least, everywhere where abortion is legal did so).

The existence of this phenomenon further supports the idea that no inherent genetic desire for wanting children exists.

This is going to be hard to find. For the same reason finding studies in “preference within athletes for having two limbs still attached” would be hard to find, but nevertheless I’ll try later.

[–]MercedesBenzoAMGbringing percocets molly percocet back to ppd1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Things like couples who wish to have kids, but cannot do so, being unhappy about that state of affairs ?

Things like couples who wish to do so, and do have kids, being happy with THAT state of affairs ?

How is that evidence of a genetic urge?

If I set any goal for myself and cannot achieve it, I will be unhappy.

If I set any goal for myself and can achieve it, I will be happy.

That doesn't mean the goal I'm following must be determined by biology.

Things like over 80% of men saying they want to be fathers ...

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/2427123

First of all, the usual disclaimers about self-reported data apply.

The source you linked uses a poll that asks fathers if they had always wanted to be fathers. If you had children and later regretted it, is that really something you would admit to yourself and your close friends, let alone to a faceless polling agency?

Second, is your argument here essentially a variant of argumentum ad populum? If most people do XYZ it must be genetic? Most people use Android phones, must be genetic.

Most people holding the view that a particular lifestyle is a goal could just as easily be evidence for society pushing people towards it. You're essentially told it's the only possible choice your whole life after all. Most do not even consider alternatives.

Also:

Women place greater emphasis on wanting to be a parent, to care for and raise a child — 22 percent among women who want children compared with 2 percent among men.

That is pretty interesting. If only 2% of men polled say they actually wanted to raise a child and be a parent, rather than having a child for other cultural reasons (continuing family tradition was the top one listed for men), does that really support your argument that there is a genetically imposed desire to raise children?

the percentage of American women of childbearing age who define themselves as childfree (or voluntarily childless) rose sharply in the 1990s—from 2.4 percent in 1982 to 4.3 percent in 1990 to 6.6 percent in 1995.

How does this not support my argument?

If you define “many” as approx 1 in 10

1 in 10 is not insignificant.

I never claimed it was a majority.

So when society tell people NOT to have kids and NOT to do it, they do ?

No, because people do not make personal decisions based on what the state tells them. Do not make the mistake of conflating state policy with societal expectations. Very different things which are often at odds with each other.

I was going to use an analogy about drug use to make my point but forget about that, let's get straight to the topic at hand.

When the government has made abortion illegal in the past, does the fact that an underground black market for abortions opened up mean the desire to not have kids must be biological? Because I mean going by your logic, if the state can't effectively prohibit a widespread practice, it must be biologically driven.

You've not provided an argument to support the conclusion that these desires are innate, only that the government prohibiting what you can do in your personal life is not effective.

The government saying "you can't do this" is not the same as society saying "you can't do this." People respond more favourably to expectations from society than to demands from the state.

If it were people would happily comply with the new policy society pushed on them.

Again, I cannot stress this enough: state policy is not the same thing as society.

It is perfectly socially acceptable to smoke cannabis in most young social circles these days but the government would still rather you didn't.

In the US even today, in non-legal states they can be pretty strict about enforcing those laws too. But people in those states still do it and consider it socially acceptable.

But this is a tiny minority.

Well it's hard to measure. Again, how many parents are genuinely going to admit they regret having children?

Most people who are unhappy with kids are not so because society forced them to have them. It’s because they didn’t want them in the first place (at least at that time of their life) but got pregnant through carelessness and carried through out of personal moral obligation (or at least, everywhere where abortion is legal did so).

Equally likely is the scenario where people didn't want kids but had them to appease their families. This isn't as common as it used to be but it still happens even in the West especially in religious communities.

This is, again, societal pressure.

This is going to be hard to find.

Yes it's very hard to find, no one has been able to provide me with an actual scientific source supporting this argument at all.

Which really makes perfect sense from an evolutionary point of view. As I said, the desire to have sex has always been enough to make us reproduce until very recently. There was simply no reason for our genes to evolve in such a way that separated the two.

[–]WhoaItsAFactorial-1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

4!

4! = 24

[–]TheGreasyPoleObjectively Pro-moderate filth0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Bad bot

[–]stoopididoit2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

True happiness comes from within.

[–]TheGreasyPoleObjectively Pro-moderate filth3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Yes it does.

And the happiness you get from having a sexual relationship comes from within, just the same way all the rest of the happiness does. And the way the unhappiness does.

And for the same reason.... the sub-conscious genetic programs that make you feel happy or unhappy are within.

And they generally DO NOT like it if you aren't having regular sex in a halfway decent ongoing relationship of some type.

[–]MercedesBenzoAMGbringing percocets molly percocet back to ppd2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

And the happiness you get from having a sexual relationship comes from within, just the same way all the rest of the happiness does.

Strictly speaking I've started a few relationships from the use of MDMA and that's been the most effective method of doing so. I can see why it was used in couple's therapy before it was made illegal.

Happiness sometimes comes from a pill with a silly logo stamped on it.

[–]TheGreasyPoleObjectively Pro-moderate filth1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Even in this case the happiness still comes from inside.

That pill just releases those feelings artificially in the same way actions in the real world release them naturally.

The MDMA is not the proximate cause of that happiness, that’s the dopamine, serotonin and norepinephrine.

Specifically (as im sure you’re aware more than any other poster) it increases their release slightly but also blocks their re-uptake. Leaving any it’s created and any you’ve created yourself (by, say, dancing or sexing someone up) swimming around for far longer and building up to intensive highs not usually reached as (normally) those things get swept up again pretty quickly after release.

[–]MercedesBenzoAMGbringing percocets molly percocet back to ppd0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

This is very true, but I'd still class it as artificial because your brain doesn't normally release such extreme amounts of serotonin and dopamine and even if you have no external stimulus you will still get a huge burst of both just from consuming the substance.

This is why it makes social interactions feel more magical too, because your baseline of serotonin and dopamine is already heightened to much that even the smallest interaction is going to feel very special.

It's a temporary and artificially created state of mind but I have to say the effects can last afterwards if you get real with someone while you're on it.

The reason it helped me start relationships is because I was chatting to girls who already liked me but the drug brings all emotions to the surface and opens you both up so much you can just chat about deep things you normally would never even speak about.

I have to say it's an experience I recommend everyone try at least once with someone they love. I even think it'd help bring me closer to my emotionally distant family if they weren't so anti-drugs.

[–]Luffysstrawhat0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

You need to be in a relationship to have sex? Not all of us mgtows are celibate.

[–]JezebeltheQueen5656Crushing males' ego since 1993-1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

Because refusing to have a sexual relationship makes almost all humans desperately unhappy ?

they should go to a hooker and problem's solved. But those males on mgtoe and elsewhere on manuresphere have bigger problems, apparently. Their mindset and personality, for example.

[–]TheGreasyPoleObjectively Pro-moderate filth9 points10 points11 points 8 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

they should go to a hooker and problem's solved.

No it's not. That fools your genes better than your right hand does that you're going to have kids.

It doesn't make your genes completely satisfied, because they spot that you're not doing the other things humans commonly do when having kids (bonding with a partner, building a nice cave, sharing mammoth steaks over a campfire etc etc.)

But those males on mgtoe and elsewhere on manuresphere have bigger problems, apparently. Their mindset and personality, for example.

They do. They're desperately unhappy they can't get relationships and their genes warp them because of that.

There is nothing wrong with them that a damn good relationship wouldn't cure. But they're getting warped by not having one, including in ways that make them less likely to have one.

[–]JezebeltheQueen5656Crushing males' ego since 1993-1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

(bonding with a partner, building a nice cave, sharing mammoth steaks over a campfire etc etc.)

who talks / thinks like this? no one. miss me with this shit.

They do. They're desperately unhappy they can't get relationships and their genes warp them because of that.

if only this were true, but , alas, males dont get to convince anyone of their loneliness. They convinced me of how disgusting and hateful they are, devoid of empathy. So, no, miss me with this nonsense.

There is nothing wrong with them that a damn good relationship wouldn't cure. But they're getting warped by not having one, including in ways that make them less likely to have one.

If you spend enough time there lurking, you'll notice many of them already have a gf (they call it a plate) yet they are still unhappy and miserable. This is where this old saying comes from; ''no one can make you happy/whole, but you''. So, something's amiss...

[–]TheGreasyPoleObjectively Pro-moderate filth2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

who talks / thinks like this? no one. miss me with this shit.

Me. If you don't like talking to me, don't reply.

if only this were true, but , alas, males dont get to convince anyone of their loneliness. They convinced me of how disgusting and hateful they are, devoid of empathy. So, no, miss me with this nonsense.

Again, if you want to be missed with this shit go talk to someone else.

Nevertheles, thats what I was saying. They're warped and hateful guys. But warped and hateful because they can't get or have a decent sexual relationship. They were problably crappy guys before that. But they get ever more warped and hateful than their starting position because of that too.

If you spend enough time there lurking, you'll notice many of them already have a gf (they call it a plate) yet they are still unhappy and miserable. T

RP or MGTOW ?

Having a woman, and even being able to interact with women, is not something MGTOW are known for in the Man-O-Sphere.

This is where this old saying comes from; ''no one can make you happy/whole, but you''. So, something's amiss...

Usually whats amiss with this lot is.... they started badly and got warped and fucked up from there by not being successful with, or being treated badly by, women.

[–]JezebeltheQueen5656Crushing males' ego since 19933 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

Define ''treated badly by women''. Is it ''i didnt get poon on command/as easily as I was promised'' or genuine mistreatment from women? Coz I deduced it's the former.

[–]TheGreasyPoleObjectively Pro-moderate filth1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Define ''treated badly by women''. Is it ''i didnt get poon on command/as easily as I was promised'' or genuine mistreatment from women? Coz I deduced it's the former.

Both generally.

[–]JezebeltheQueen5656Crushing males' ego since 19930 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

''i didnt get poon on command/as easily as I was promised''

this is not women treating men badly; this is exercising one's free will. It's as if those males deserved their time and bodies. Not.

[–]TheGreasyPoleObjectively Pro-moderate filth0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

But that sentence covers a lot of guys. A lot of them perfectly nice, gentle, kind, introverts who were told that women liked that. And get bitter that, because they’re also ugly, that’s just not the case. They get twisted too. At the other end are the Elliot Rogers douches.

This shit happens to people, largely through no fault of their own in many cases, and men in particular start getting mentally bent out of shape over it.

Some resolves to do something about it and join RP. Some give up, and they join the black pill and MGTOW.

[–]Nemobeenfound 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

So you don't think women never ever treat men badly?

[–]KrispyMcSockingtonPillar of the community2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

When women don't get what they want they call it misogyny. Men also have 10 times or more the testosterone of women meaning being stuck with a woman who doesn't fuck is a waste of time.

Women actually don't understand what it means to be treated equal to men. The university of waterloo did a study and found that female observers called it misogyny when men treated women like other men but equality when they were nicer to them.

Women also don't hold themselves accountable and blame society because they aren't getting things their way. It's never their fault their relationships suck or they can't get a boyfriend. It's never their fault they cannot get promoted despite working less than men. It's never their fault they are unhappy about their weight or appearance, it's men who don't appreciate them etc.

Women also don't consider it abuse when they mistreat men and there is far less help for abused men than abused women. You can deduce anything you want, doesn't make it accurate or right.

[–]rainisthelifeFacepalm 😑1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

What a pointless crap load of whataboutism. She asked a simple question and instead of answering it, you went on a tirade about what women also do, which does nothing to take away from the actual point that the most likely reason those men feel “mistreated” is because of their own entitlement.

[–]Nemobeenfound 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Ditto.

Women also don't consider it abuse when they mistreat men and there is far less help for abused men than abused women.

Don't forget the best part is he deserved it or better yet because women are "weak" he can take the abuse.

You can deduce anything you want, doesn't make it accurate or right.

Your so silly. Don't you know what ever women say more so a feminist say is always right no matter what?

[–]Nemobeenfound 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

They convinced me of how disgusting and hateful they are, devoid of empathy.

Gotta love the irony.

[–]Pope_LuciousSeparating the wheat from the hoes7 points8 points9 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

They are. They just aren’t bitching on the internet about it.

[–]jackandjill22Red Pill misanthropic, contrarian1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Yep.

[–]DarkLord0chinChin7 points8 points9 points 8 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

They are though

[–]squidracer 6 points7 points8 points 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

In large numbers. It's called bacholorhood in the real world

[–]Nemobeenfound 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

lol wut no. Its call manchild.

[–]squidracer 5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Aww, look at you man shaming 🤣

[–]Nemobeenfound 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Even tho its not. It what society/media is calling men who aren't filling their gender role today.

[–]squidracer 3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

LMAO fuck the media. They can suck a dick

[–]DarkLord0chinChin5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Better manchild than beta

[–]JustAnotherOmegaMale 13 points14 points15 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

MGTOW isn't really something you decide to do. Men Sent Their Own Way is more accurate.

[–]jackandjill22Red Pill misanthropic, contrarian0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

No.

[–]justtypingcuz 13 points14 points15 points 8 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

I think the mgtow LIFESTYLE is becoming more and more common among men even if many people don't know what mgtow actually means.

That being said mgtow is Probly the fastest growing subset of the manosphere.

[–]decoy88Black Male in London7 points8 points9 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Because it's the least scary thing to do. You can literally withdraw into your shell and use a label to justify it.

[–]justtypingcuz 4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Ya, or you can do wtf else you wanna do.

Being mgtow is just about doing your own thing and not being a pussy whipped sucker.

[–]MercedesBenzoAMGbringing percocets molly percocet back to ppd4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It's an idea as old as time. The old "fuck bitches, get money." MGTOW is merely a new way of expressing an old idea. The bachelor lifestyle has been a thing forever.

On its most basic level - fuck around with women but don't commit and don't let pursuing them control your life and define who you are - I'd say it's easily a downright obvious and sensible thing to do.

The MGTOWs who are obvious sour grapes incels who just want a way to feel like it's their own choice are what gives it a bad name.

[–]jackandjill22Red Pill misanthropic, contrarian0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Yep.

[–]SilentLurker6663 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

The Heart of MGTOW is really men having their own individual ideas on how to live their lives and reject the standards society (and especially the opposite gender) has set upon them. So at the end of the day, if you truly chooses the life that you wanted, then you are "going your own way." That involves how men weight and values "female companionship", and for some men, they realized it's not worth the trouble.

Meanwhile, Why aren't more women feminist?

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/only-1-in-3-women-identify-as-feminists-despite-feminist-beliefs-153424581.html

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/feminism-poll_n_3094917

https://today.yougov.com/news/2016/02/23/less-than-third-women-feminists/

[–]TallSwaggOVO2 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Thank you

[–]BlueFairyPainter1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

There are things where I believe women are still oppressed and if asked, yes, I would prefer it were different, but my life's good and I got more important shit to do. It's kinda like enjoying someone's music without being a fan. It really comes down to the lack of enthusiasm.

[–]whitebunny87 19 points20 points21 points 8 years ago (183 children) | Copy Link

Because they have more to gain by being with a woman than by not. Isn't this obvious?

[–]LifterofThingsDelicate Feminine Flower19 points20 points21 points 8 years ago (30 children) | Copy Link

The responses to this post are like... retarded beyond my ability to describe them.

"Why don't more men go their own way?"

"Because they get more out of being with a woman than not."

"NUH UH!" "OH YEAH, I DON'T SEE HOW." "NO THEY DON'T!"

Jesus tittyfucking christ. ಠ_ಠ If men are still choosing to be with women, this is pretty fuckin' self-evident.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

But you’re wrong becuz ... women

[–]LifterofThingsDelicate Feminine Flower8 points9 points10 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Curse you, innie genitals! Foiled again!

[–]whitebunny87 3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

i know lol. i give up.

[–]ganso_bum0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago* (26 children) | Copy Link

They mostly don't. They're paying more for a woman to be around than the other way around, but you also can't get pussy without a live woman, so they grin and bear it.

Even worse if you want children, then she's got you over the proverbial barrel no matter what.

[–]LifterofThingsDelicate Feminine Flower2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

So men are poor sad victims of their own choices.

Nah, that doesn't fly with me from feminists, and it's not going to fly coming from men, either.

[–]ganso_bum0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

Feminists don't care either way, women are the choosers and the gatekeepers and feminism tells them that they're never wrong and they're completely in the right with all of their actions no matter how shitty they are.

So men have to grin and bear being ripped off badly if they actually want something from women in general. Or get lucky and find a good woman, but those are few and far between.

[–]LifterofThingsDelicate Feminine Flower1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

You've totally missed my point.

[–]ganso_bum0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

Your English didn't make sense, so I tried to extrapolate what you were saying based on the words I saw and the Red flair you're using.

[–]LifterofThingsDelicate Feminine Flower1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

Uh huh. Maybe it's your English-reading that needs work?

Men and women alike are free to weigh the potential costs and benefits of choices they have to make and err on whichever side they decide offers the "better deal", period.

There are going to be downsides to any choice an individual makes -- this isn't a bug, it's a feature of being an independent adult with free will.

Women choose careers that pay less, on average, than the careers that men choose for reasons that include individual interests, better work-life balance, and more freedom. Feminist whining seeks to absolve women of the consequences of these choices (less money) by attempting to pin them on some grand patriarchal conspiracy, which is bullshit.

MGTOW have decided that the risks of relationships with women outweigh the potential benefits. This comes with the consequences of probably no kids or less sex or less companionship etc etc, and the benefits of nobody being legally entitled to half their shit in a divorce.

Men don't have to "grin and bear" shit. They can choose to walk away (as demonstrated by MGTOW) -- most of them just don't... and any consequences of those choices after the fact are a part of the choices those individual men made for themselves. I don't condone adult hypoagency, whether it's being demonstrated by men or women.

[–]ganso_bum0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

Uh huh. Maybe it's your English-reading that needs work?

Obviously you need to look at what you said again:

"Nah, that doesn't fly with me from feminists, and it's not going to fly coming from men, either."

What doesn't, the thing you said or the thing I said? Who are you compared to feminists? And onwards. You said something that didn't say anything specific.

Women choose careers that pay less, on average, than the careers that men choose for reasons that include individual interests, better work-life balance, and more freedom. Feminist whining seeks to absolve women of the consequences of these choices (less money) by attempting to pin them on some grand patriarchal conspiracy, which is bullshit.

Yes.

MGTOW have decided that the risks of relationships with women outweigh the potential benefits. This comes with the consequences of probably no kids or less sex or less companionship etc etc, and the benefits of nobody being legally entitled to half their shit in a divorce.

Yes.

Men don't have to "grin and bear" shit. They can choose to walk away (as demonstrated by MGTOW) -- most of them just don't... and any consequences of those choices after the fact are a part of the choices those individual men made for themselves. I don't condone adult hypoagency, whether it's being demonstrated by men or women.

Looking again at what I said:

So men have to grin and bear being ripped off badly if they actually want something from women in general

MGTOW don't apply here, because they don't want anything from women. If they want something from a woman, such as having a child or an LTR, they're likely going to have to overpay for it, and convince themselves that the price is worth it (unless they're Chad, in which case, they get it for free and then can discard with the acceptance of the woman in question, or they're rich, in this case, money doesn't matter).

[–]LifterofThingsDelicate Feminine Flower1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

What doesn't, the thing you said or the thing I said? Who are you compared to feminists? And onwards. You said something that didn't say anything specific.

The first part that you omitted from the context/didn't read where I reference adults being "poor sad victims of their own choices" (which was sarcastic in case it slipped by you) answers that part.

So men have to grin and bear being ripped off badly if they actually want something from women in general

If men actually regarded relationships with women as "being ripped off badly", they'd opt out. But they don't, despite it being a demonstrably valid option, so I can only conclude that the pros outweigh the cons. You're complaining that men don't get to have what they want from women (kids, sex, companionship) without the things they don't want (divorce, heartbreak, having to deal with women when they're being annoying) as if it's some cosmically-unjust situation that men are FORCED into. It's not. This is the same inane shit as feminists whining about the pay gap.

[–]ganso_bum1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The first part that you omitted from the context/didn't read where I reference adults being "poor sad victims of their own choices" (which was sarcastic in case it slipped by you) answers that part.

Because it still didn't make sense what you were even responding to.

If men actually regarded relationships with women as "being ripped off badly", they'd opt out. But they don't, despite it being a demonstrably valid option, so I can only conclude that the pros outweigh the cons.

I think most people still want children. If someone wants something enough, they will take a bad deal just to get it.

Or they're naive enough to believe the bull pill way of life and then get burned later. That happens to.

as if it's some cosmically-unjust situation that men are FORCED into. It's not. This is the same inane shit as feminists whining about the pay gap.

They pretty much are if they want children or even just a girlfriend ;)

[–]LifterofThings3 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Because it still didn't make sense what you were even responding to.

I took a poll -- you're in the minority there.

I think most people still want children. If someone wants something enough, they will take a bad deal just to get it.

Then clearly the deal isn't that bad, for the potential benefits.

They pretty much are if they want children or even just a girlfriend ;)

Women are forced to give up their free time and their lives to get STEM degrees and work 100 hour weeks if they want to be CEOs! Smash the patriarchy!

[–]ganso_bum1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I took a poll -- you're in the minority there.

You're a woman, people will back you up regardless

Then clearly the deal isn't that bad, for the potential benefits.

Buying something overpriced still gives you the thing you want, you just paid a lot more for it than it was likely worth and that you wanted to.

Women are forced to give up their free time and their lives to get STEM degrees and work 100 hour weeks if they want to be CEOs! Smash the patriarchy!

LOL. They'll get the job so the company can virtue-signal, obviously (unless a non-white man is going for it, then she's in trouble).

And that woman will demand her man be even more successful than her, making her still a bad deal

[–]LifterofThings2 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You're a woman, people will back you up regardless

Stop arguing with me then. I have tits. Defer to my gynocentric privilege, you misogynistic shitlord.

Buying something overpriced still gives you the thing you want, you just paid a lot more for it than it was likely worth and that you wanted to.

That doesn't erase the inalienable FACT that it was YOUR choice to buy it. Those consequences are on your head.

And that woman will demand her man be even more successful than her, making her still a bad deal

Okay, cool. We've established that analogies are beyond your comprehension.

[–]ganso_bum1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Stop arguing with me then. I have tits. Defer to my gynocentric privilege, you misogynistic shitlord.

Nop, fighting the power

That doesn't erase the inalienable FACT that it was YOUR choice to buy it. Those consequences are on your head.

Yep, but a lot of men either feel they don't have a choice (because babies have to come from somewhere) or they've been tricked into thinking otherwise by a gynocentric society

Okay, cool. We've established that analogies are beyond your comprehension.

Here's some helpful advice: learn how to speak a language before trying to make a point with it. You may actually come off as smart as you think you are.

[–]LifterofThings2 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Yep, but a lot of men either feel they don't have a choice (because babies have to come from somewhere) or they've been tricked into thinking otherwise by a gynocentric society

So feels before reals then. The fact that a person can make choices to change the course of his/her life is invalidated if he/she FEELS that he/she has no choice... But this abdication of personal responsibility for one's own shit only applies to men, because women are a privileged class. It's almost like I've heard and rejected this argument from some other faction before... I can't quite put a finger on it.

Here's some helpful advice: learn how to speak a language before trying to make a point with it. You may actually come off as smart as you think you are.

I'm not really that invested in having people who read at a grade-school level admire my intellect, but I'll bear this in mind in case my priorities should ever shift in that direction. Thanks.

[–]ganso_bum1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

So feels before reals then. The fact that a person can make choices to change the course of his/her life is invalidated if he/she FEELS that he/she has no choice... But this abdication of personal responsibility for one's own shit only applies to men, because women are a privileged class. It's almost like I've heard and rejected this argument from some other faction before... I can't quite put a finger on it.

Women are the choosers and the gatekeepers, which actually does make them privileged in that situation. If they don't let you in, you don't get in. Women don't require any kind of personal responsibility because they get to select regardless.

I'm not really that invested in having people who read at a grade-school level admire my intellect, but I'll bear this in mind in case my priorities should ever shift in that direction. Thanks.

Stringing words together that make sense will generally help you communicate in life, princess. I realize female privilege is that people tell you're making sense just because you think are you, but words actually mean something and putting them together will help you actually make points because not all of us are invested in making you feel good about your lives to just nod along and pretend we know what it is you're talking about.

[–]LifterofThings2 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Women are the choosers and the gatekeepers, which actually does make them privileged in that situation. If they don't let you in, you don't get in. Women don't require any kind of personal responsibility because they get to select regardless.

I mean, I could again relate this to the feminist notion that men have all the economic and political power and therefore are privileged and therefore women are oppressed and so their freedom of choice doesn't count and blablabla... but I suspect it'd probably fly over your head again anyway so I won't bother.

Stringing words together that make sense will generally help you communicate in life, princess. I realize female privilege is that people tell you're making sense just because you think are you, but words actually mean something and putting them together will help you actually make points because not all of us are invested in making you feel good about your lives to just nod along and pretend we know what it is you're talking about.

God, you're such a maverick. Take me now.

[–]ganso_bum1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I mean, I could again relate this to the feminist notion that men have all the economic and political power and therefore are privileged and therefore women are oppressed and so their freedom of choice doesn't count and blablabla... but I suspect it'd probably fly over your head again anyway so I won't bother.

That's to a different degree. Rich men have powers like that. Women don't notice it because they don't pay all that much attention to men who aren't rich.

The comparison falls flat because even an ugly or an obese woman has options and is therefore still the chooser and the gatekeeper.

God, you're such a maverick. Take me now.

Cancer can't take you quick enough ;)

[–]Arlybigstickk0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

What the fuck did I just read? I can't believe I wasted 15 minutes reading your shit arguments. I literally only kept reading to see if you finally comprehended her points... And you missed them. You're literally just so butthurt about life and women hating you probably because you smell that you just kept rambling on.... And on..... I don't think that I've ever thought about ending it all until I read your shit ass arguments...

[–]ganso_bum0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

You didn't like what you were reading so you... kept reading it?

[–]Arlybigstickk1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

.....you're shitting me.... I literally said "I kept reading to see if you eventually comprehended her points"...

[–]LifterofThingsDelicate Feminine Flower2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Maybe if you learned to English moar you could figure out some reliable way to cater to his tragic bag-of-wet-turds reading comprehension level. Only dumb princess snowflakes use things like analogies... and also apparently plain-speech explanations of motivation. Stop being so unintelligent!!!!!!

[–]ganso_bum0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

She didn't have points. And yet you kept reading something you didn't like.

[–]Arlybigstickk1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

This is a lost cause. Sorry dude. But now you're just trolling. Good luck in your quest for satisfaction.

[–]LifterofThingsDelicate Feminine Flower1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Maybe he FELT forced to read it. Assuming he has a penis that totally makes his choice to read it my fault, because gynocentrism or something, right? He was compelled by all of those machiavellian snatch machinations such that his free will was erased, even though reading these posts clearly turned out to be a raw deal.

[–]ganso_bum0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

The White Knight galloping around the outskirts, waiting for the prime moment to enter and signal his virtue to all the ladies of the village

[–]LifterofThingsDelicate Feminine Flower1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Little does he know that he's had the gynocentric wool pulled over his eyes and women only give up the butthole to free-thinking MGTOW mavericks. Dang. Guess his only option is to grin and bear it.

[–]ganso_bum1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Sir Chad has already plundered them loose, the local Beta Buckies grin and bear it as they plow the soybean fields, MGTOWs just shrug their shoulders when disaster strikes and someone needs to protect the women because they're not getting anything out of it either way

[–]squidracer 5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Not really

[–]Million-SunsMarriage is obsolete5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I don't see how.

[–]justtypingcuz 4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago* (130 children) | Copy Link

A hetero relationship is based more on sacrifice on the male's end. But I guess you could consider those sacrifices to be gains.

Men GET to pay for the girl when they both go out.

Men GET to become protectors of a smaller and physically useless human female who expects him to put his life on the line for hers..

Edit: comment went from +3 votes to -1 to +2 to -2🤣 realizing they're more of a burdain than anything else musta got the girls pretty upset.

[–]TheChemist158Non-Feminist Blue Pill Woman16 points17 points18 points 8 years ago (35 children) | Copy Link

Men GET to pay for the girl when they both go out.

Not all women expect this. I don't.

Men GET to become protectors of a smaller and physically useless human female who expects him to put his life on the line for hers..

How often does this actually come up? I've never been in a situation where I needed protection from my fiance. Not that I would even expect him to.

Also, women aren't physically useless, we're just weaker. I've been spending all weekend doing yardwork, clearly not physically useless. Not to mention the typical domesticate labor like cooking and cleaning that women often do.

[–]justtypingcuz 8 points9 points10 points 8 years ago* (23 children) | Copy Link

Well that's your experience and I'm not sure that it's the norm. Ime women definitely do expect their men to be protective of them.

Women are useless in any type of street action. Whenever something goes down they'll fall back and call on their men. It almost seems instinctual.

I'll try not to hurt the female feelings of this sub. Women are physically useless.. when compared to men, better?

[–]TheChemist158Non-Feminist Blue Pill Woman9 points10 points11 points 8 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

Women are useless in any type of street action. Whenever something goes down they'll fall back and call on their men. It almost seems instinctual.

Don't bring your girlfriend to your rumbles? Or don't date women who get into rumbles. I don't know you, but I'm starting to think that's for the better, lol.

I'll try not to hurt the female feelings of this sub. Women are physically useless.. when compared to men, better?

It's not about hurt feelings, it's about being objectively wrong. Women have physical utilities. This isn't a relative statement either, when don't looser utility when they are compared to men. A hand saw is less powerful than a chainsaw, but still useful. Women are physically useful but less so then men.

[–]justtypingcuz 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago* (10 children) | Copy Link

Fine 😩 in terms of physical ability women are just mostly useless. But not completely.

There?

[–]TheChemist158Non-Feminist Blue Pill Woman7 points8 points9 points 8 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

There?

Mmm, no. Strength has a deminishing marginal utility when it comes to physical utility. Most utility comes from the last less strenuous tasks.

What things do you do most often in day to day life? Cooking, cleaning, driving, computer work, all if which can easily be done by women. Even in terms of yard work women can do most of that stuff. I built a retaining wall for a planner, installed a sprinkler system, I can mow the lawn, right now I'm installing a fence to keep chickens in. My fiance is currently trimming trees which I also could do. His bonus male utility really just comes in if we need to move very heavy objects. I couldn't get one of the fence posts in all the way and needed him to hammer it a few times. But it's only odd bits that he is needed for.

Most of the physical capabilities of men that are used can also be done by women.

[–]justtypingcuz 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link

I dont consider Driving, cleaning, cooking and computer shit to be physical activities.

I've never had a garden so idk how hard that would even be. I assume not much since its mostly old ladies I see gardening.

Ive had to help women carry mildly heavy bags of freakin groceries up the street cuz they were to heavy for them to carry on there own. If that doesn't spell out useless idk what does.

Like I said earlier tho. When it comes to some actual action where all bets are off n people start getting down women are not mostly useless but completely. Hell, you could even say they're worse than useless cuz on top of being useless they're a burdain on you to watch after.

[–]TheChemist158Non-Feminist Blue Pill Woman4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

I dont consider Driving, cleaning, cooking and computer to be physical activities.

What would you consider to be physical activities? I'm defining it as unskilled labor. Pretty much anything that you just need a body for, rather than a thinking mind. Even if we exclude the activities with minimal exertion like driving or cooking, women can still do most of the stuff that needs to get done.

I've never had a garden so idk how hard that would even be. I assume not much since its mostly old ladies I see gardening

Building a garden and gardening are very different (though tilling the soil can be exerting too). I had to clear the area of of some pretty large logs (probably weighing ~70 lbs), and gravel, move a cumaltive 1.5 tons of bricks, and roll out some chicken wire. I will also have to fill it with another few tons of soil, but that'll be late this week. That and I can do (and actually do) virtually all of the yard work.

Ive had to help women carry mildly heavy bags of freakin groceries up the street cuz it was to heavy for them. If that doesn't spell out useless idk what does.

They were either sickly, old, or lazy. I can easily throw a 30 pound bag of dog food on my shoulder and walk through the store and to the car with it. And I'm not a particularly fit or strong woman. I'm a couch potato most of the time.

[–]justtypingcuz 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

You sure you're not on the stronger side for a woman? You don't sound average you sound like some type of rancher or something. Building chicken coops n shit lol

Not that there's anything wrong with that. You seem like youre seriously self sufficient n would be more valuable of a partner than 98% of Women I've met throughout my life.

[–]susandeath4 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

She really probably isnt. You got beta orbited that time you "had" to carry the groceries.

[–]justtypingcuz0 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I don't do it cuz im trying to fukk the bitch. Ive been asked for help many times. Alot of the time by bitches I don't even know.

[–]i_have_a_semicolon3 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Shit test. Don't give in.

Women are not physically incapable of doing things. Even if she knows you aren't trying to fuck you, why wouldn't she claim you as a beta orbiter if it meant she didn't have to do something?

Lazy is the truth. Unless she's exceptionally weak. I'm exceptionally weak but I'll still try it myself first.

Think that being physically stronger doesn't mean a man is constantly making sacrifices either. , Just a thought.

[–]TheChemist1583 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You sure you're not on the stronger side for a woman?

I really doubt it. I'm pretty sure I'm below average for 25 year old women. Aside from sporadic bursts of outdoor projects I'm pretty sedentary.

You don't sound average you sound like some type of rancher or something. Building chicken coops n shit lol

I grew up on a farm so I might be more willing then others to do work. But I've moved to the suburbs and gotten a job as a scientist. I'm definitely not particularly strong.

[–]LifterofThingsDelicate Feminine Flower6 points7 points8 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Because a large proportion of modern life consists of beating down your opponents with brute force. This is a very relevant critique of the value of women.

... wut?

[–]MercedesBenzoAMGbringing percocets molly percocet back to ppd0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Women are useless in any type of street action. Whenever something goes down they'll fall back and call on their men.

He sounds like he just walked straight out of Bugsy Malone 😂

[–]DemonConsulting4" Dragon5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

Well that's your experience and I'm not sure that it's the norm.

That is literall what you can say about both sides of the argument. Some people have shit relationships while others have good, rewarding ones and some people as a result find those to be worth their time or not. The majority of people seems to prefer them over being alone at least but that doesn't mean others can't have different experiences and preferences. It's a personal choice that you can't really make blanket statements over since in the end every individual chooses how to live their life.

[–]justtypingcuz 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

I said that about women expecting their men to be protective of them. Which I do think is the norm.

[–]i_have_a_semicolonPurple Pill Woman5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

How are men protective of women in day to day life?

[–]Nemobeenfound 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

They didn't say men are being protective but women expect them to be.

[–]i_have_a_semicolonPurple Pill Woman5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

That's not making a sacrifice then lol

[–]MercedesBenzoAMGbringing percocets molly percocet back to ppd2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

But many men (myself included) enjoy feeling protective over a girl we love just as much as they enjoy feeling protected. You make it sound like a chore.

Of course in the modern first world this is mostly just a psychological thing anyway.

[–]justtypingcuz 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Alot of guys enjoy goin to get their leg blown off in Iraq. Defending their country makes them feel good.

Doesn't make it any less of a sacrifice.

[–]MercedesBenzoAMGbringing percocets molly percocet back to ppd2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Was still their own choice.

Also what real sacrifices is it you make in the modern Western world when being protective of a woman? It's not like you have to fight competing tribes. Pretty much the extent of it in most cases is walking her home. As I said it's mostly psychological.

[–]justtypingcuz 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

Yes, it's a sacrifice of their own choosing. That doesnt change the fact that its a sacrifice. Idk why so many people in here are triggered by this.

Aside from the common fighting and mate guarding, the frequency of how often some serious shit goes down would probly depend on where youre from I guess.

A cousin of mine was shot dead while waiting for his food in front of a lunch truck. All because of some argument he got into with someone else who was trying to talk to his bitch. Shit like that still happens believe it or not.

[–]MercedesBenzoAMG1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I'm not "triggered", what gave you that impression? I'm not writing in an angry or emotional tone at all.

It sounds like you're talking about things that are exclusive to low-income communities in the US. Within the first world it is simply not the norm to get shot over a girl.

[–]Buttery_0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Who sent them to that war? 🤔

[–]Nemobeenfound 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Not all women expect this.

No but the vast majority do tho.

[–]TheChemist158Non-Feminist Blue Pill Woman6 points7 points8 points 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Ehhh, I wouldn't trust an online survey too much. Note that this is asking about first dates, not dates in general. Also if we did trust it, it isn't that daunting of a task to find a woman who doesn't want you to pay on the first date. One in four women in general and one in three youths don't think the men should pay for the first date.

Though I do think it is interesting that men seem to enforce that gender norm more than women. At least by that survey. 13 percent more men then when think they should pay on the first date, and men think the first date should cost twice as much as women think.

[–]Nemobeenfound 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Note that this is asking about first dates, not dates in general.

So?

Also if we did trust it, it isn't that daunting of a task to find a woman who doesn't want you to pay on the first date. One in four women in general and one in three youths don't think the men should pay for the first date.

Ya not everyone lives in feminist urban society known as Seattle or Portland. Where I live that is very much a daunting task as I live in a political purple area and there's loads of gold diggers and that hypergamy is very much a thing. More so women still expect men to be the breadwinner. A man not paying for a date doesn't fit a breadwinner role.

Though I do think it is interesting that men seem to enforce that gender norm more than women. At least by that survey. 13 percent more men then when think they should pay on the first date, and men think the first date should cost twice as much as women think.

Because they know that's what women want and that what's needed to "impress" the woman.

[–]TheChemist158Non-Feminist Blue Pill Woman2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Note that this is asking about first dates, not dates in general.

So?

If you think men should pay for any date, it's probably the first. The expectation that men pay decreases with the age of the relationship.

Ya not everyone lives in feminist urban society known as Seattle or Portland.

I didn't see any stats that broke it down by location. Maybe it's a huge variable, maybe not. I don't know. But I do know that according to your citation somewhere between one in four to one in three women don't think the man should pay. It doesn't exactly scream "the vast majority of women expect you to do this" when one in three won't expect it.

Where I live that is very much a daunting task as I live in a political purple area and there's loads of gold diggers and that hypergamy is very much a thing. More so women still expect men to be the breadwinner. A man not paying for a date doesn't fit a breadwinner role.

Every thought of moving if it bothers you so much?

Because they know that's what women want and that what's needed to "impress" the woman.

They think it more than women though.

[–]Nemobeenfound 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

If you think men should pay for any date, it's probably the first.

I don't. And I actually promote the whole dutch thing. Its women that think this.

I didn't see any stats that broke it down by location.

It didn't. I was more pointing out in high progressive area women are more likely to pay or share or split. The vast majority of the US is not progressive. And my link shows some 70% of women think men should pay for the first date. As women still expect men to be the breadwinners.

Every thought of moving if it bothers you so much?

I have thought of moving for other reasons one for high COL. But here I grown use to it and its more of an annoyance.

They think it more than women though.

I know. As I said its because we know that's what women want. The poll even supports this line of reason. If the poll showed say 50% of women expecting this and some 80% of men did then your argument for men reinforcing gender roles will be stronger.

[–]TheChemist158Non-Feminist Blue Pill Woman1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I don't. And I actually promote the whole dutch thing. Its women that think this.

I meant 'you' in the general sense, I wasn't referring to you personally. Lots of people think the men should pay for the first date, but less people think he should pay for the second. And less still people think he should be paying for all the dates a year into the relationship. Which is why I don't think asking how many people think men should pay for the first date is a fair gauge of typical dates while in a relationship.

BTW, I actually also support going Dutch. I tried suggesting it on the first date but my now fiance was unsettled by the idea and I let him pay just to make him more comfortable. Currently we split everything 50/50.

As I said its because we know that's what women want. The poll even supports this line of reason. If the poll showed say 50% of women expecting this and some 80% of men did then your argument for men reinforcing gender roles will be stronger.

I really don't think that is a fair conclusion when 72% of women and 85% of men think that.

[–]Nemobeenfound 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Lots of people think the men should pay for the first date, but less people think he should pay for the second. And less still people think he should be paying for all the dates a year into the relationship. Which is why I don't think asking how many people think men should pay for the first date is a fair gauge of typical dates while in a relationship.

And yet men are still expected to be the breadwinner. More so even if less people think the man should always pay when in a relationship that doesn't mean its going to happen. Not every relationship is dual income meaning the woman isn't making money to pay for a date.

I really don't think that is a fair conclusion when 72% of women and 85% of men think that.

You may not think its fair but its an accurate one. As its not like things are skewed here in terms of perception. Often not one's perception is often not off the mark.

[–]Freethetreees10 points11 points12 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

And other men find those sacrifices to be worth it. Just because you don't, doesn't mean you should denigrate their choices.

[–]whitebunny87 9 points10 points11 points 8 years ago (38 children) | Copy Link

And they don't get anything in return for this? If it's so one sided why do you think men continue to pair off?

[–]justtypingcuz 6 points7 points8 points 8 years ago (28 children) | Copy Link

Cuz they want consistant sex and see a monogamous relationship as their best or only option.

[–]whitebunny87 5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (27 children) | Copy Link

Is that not a gain?

[–]squidracer 3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (24 children) | Copy Link

Not really. After 5 months with the same girl it gets old

[–]theambivalentrooster3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Maybe for you.

[–]abaxeron✴️Indian Programmer3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (21 children) | Copy Link

After 5 months she stops having sex with him.

[–]decoy88Black Male in London9 points10 points11 points 8 years ago (20 children) | Copy Link

You lot must have terrible sex lives.

[–]abaxeron✴️Indian Programmer-1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (19 children) | Copy Link

How long have you been married? If the answer is "I'm not" or "Less than a year", then you might not be in a position to throw ad hominems like that.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.8 points9 points10 points 8 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

I’ve been married for almost five years now, together for just about 8, no the sex didn’t dry up after 5 months, of being LTR’d or married. So what now? Are we some outlier unicorn marriage? I bet we aren’t.

[–]abaxeron1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Do you want a cookie?

The point we're arguing under is "Cuz they [men] want consistant sex and see a monogamous relationship as their best or only option." In no way does monogamous relationship guarantee constant sex. Or even marriage. And we aren't talking about 1% of poor bastards who found themselves trapped in "cheaper-to-keep-her" dead-bedroom marriage. What happens if your bedroom turns dead tomorrow? - Nothing.

Thus, I believe, men who pursue monogamous relationship for the purpose of having regular sex, are falling for a scam.

[–]PennnyLame1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Statistically don’t married/LTR’d men have more regular sex than their single counterparts?

(Also: I’ve been married 7 years, together 11. Still have sex...)

[–]abaxeron2 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

"Their single counterparts", statistically, don't discover themselves legally trapped into an obligation to pay for service that they don't receive to a person who doesn't provide it. They still pay to the state of course, but at least the part of their income that they have legal control over is higher. Also, the state doesn't nag.

Do YOU want a cookie?

[–]PennnyLame2 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You’re pretty salty when reals don’t match up your feels huh?

[–]abaxeron1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I'm having two people SINCERELY bringing their personal anecdotes as evidence for "reals".

Both are female.

Gosh. Have you graduated college? If yes, .......... HOOOOOW?!

[–]PennnyLame2 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

No- I am referring to any of the reguarly referenced statistics that show married people have more sex than single people. You could google it. That’s what a college grad would do...

[–]Fabianstrategy11 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

These studies typically factor in the "undesirables" or incels though. I'd wager if you compare a single 35 year old man to a man who's married and of the same attractiveness, the single man is getting laid a lot more.

[–]PennnyLame2 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

??? Why? Why would you wager that? Even barely sexually active couples probably have sex 1-2x/month. Do you think an average dude can go to a bar and pick up a woman that often? Especially if we’re talking 35 year olds- they are aged out of 22 year old idiots and have to play in the wanna vet/get married 30+ crowd.

If a man can’t get some from his wife, he’s not getting any from a stranger/casual fling.

[–]Fabianstrategy11 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

lol the “want to get married 30+ women” fuck on the first date like their lives depend on it. I don’t even bother taking them on a date anymore when I feel like getting laid.

[–]PennnyLame2 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Well, maybe I gave the women you “date” too much credit then.

My point is still the same: if a man cannot get some from his wife, he is not getting from a stranger.

[–]Fabianstrategy11 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Are you married?

[–]PennnyLame1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Yes.

[–]Fabianstrategy11 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Solid. Hope that works out for you.

[–]PennnyLame1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

?

[–]decoy88Black Male in London3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Unmarried single.

How many marriages are you a part of? Because I can promise you they are not all identical.

Plus you said "after 5 months" lol what?

[–]abaxeron0 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Plus you said "after 5 months" lol what?

That part was snarky. Some couples do last longer.

It is illegal in my nation to be a part of more than one marriage at a time, but if consequent marriages count, I'll limit my personal details to "more than one". And I've also seen more than enough 'couples' sleeping in separate bedrooms or sometimes even separate houses. According to the available statistics, I'm even of the lucky ones!

[–]decoy882 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Sorry about that mate.

[–]i_have_a_semicolonPurple Pill Woman-1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Maybe she's not doing enough to tantalize you.

[–]justtypingcuz -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

The only one. Unless they want kids.

And it's a "gain" some guys can get without a real relationship

[–]whitebunny87 3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

most people want kids. most men enjoy a female companion.

[–]squidracer 3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

Because most men are stupid

[–]i_have_a_semicolonPurple Pill Woman5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

And what about the smart men who get into relationships? Do you think 100% of relationships fail?

[–]squidracer 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

No, they don't all fail. The rest end up in a soul sucking rut

[–]i_have_a_semicolonPurple Pill Woman1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Untrue

[–]squidracer 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Cmv😛

[–]i_have_a_semicolonPurple Pill Woman1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I'll hit you up once a decade and let you know how it's going.

[–]Fabianstrategy1Asshole with asshole opinions0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

exactly. Sunk Cost Fallacy/denial being the biggest vehicles of this stupidity.

[–]LifterofThingsDelicate Feminine Flower0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Oh, well, QED.

[–]i_have_a_semicolonPurple Pill Woman9 points10 points11 points 8 years ago (45 children) | Copy Link

Just checking in, my man doesn't agree with this sentiment. He doesn't feel as if he's making a sacrifice

[–]squidracer 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (36 children) | Copy Link

That's because you make allot of money 🙄

[–]i_have_a_semicolonPurple Pill Woman1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (34 children) | Copy Link

I think that regardless men can still go Dutch with a woman , it's very common now adays and then just select for women who understands hard work and money and doesn't feel entitled to yours.

[–]squidracer 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (22 children) | Copy Link

Soooooo, no women in the prole class then.

Guess that leaves 20%

[–]MercedesBenzoAMGbringing percocets molly percocet back to ppd1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I've dated women from working class to middle class and none of them had a problem splitting the bill.

[–]squidracer 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Hmm, I'll have to look into it. Honestly, i haven't done dinner dates in over 15 years

[–]i_have_a_semicolonPurple Pill Woman0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (19 children) | Copy Link

I guess I don't understand the desire to date women in prole class If she expects a man to pick up her personal tab everywhere

[–]squidracer 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (18 children) | Copy Link

It's pretty common in the working class. Thankfully I'm to cheap to participate in such nonsense. One of my gfs asked me to dinner today and i told her i was to poor 🤣

[–]i_have_a_semicolonPurple Pill Woman2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link

And she didn't offer to treat you?

I'd say "I can't afford to get dinner tonight but if you want to take me out I'll take you home and make it worth while ;)"

[–]squidracer 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

and she didn't offer to treat you?

I know right!?

[–]Nemobeenfound 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

And she didn't offer to treat you?

Why the hell would you expect his gf to offer such a thing?

[–]MercedesBenzoAMG1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Because it's pretty normal to share costs of this stuff if you're in a relationship?

[–]Nemobeenfound1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Sharing costs isn't the same as offering to treat you.

[–]MercedesBenzoAMG1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

What I mean is if she's your gf you will pay for one date, she will pay for the next one, etc.

[–]Nemobeenfound1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Ya that's not treating you more than trading off.

[–]MercedesBenzoAMG1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

That's why I called it sharing costs.

[–]i_have_a_semicolon1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I took my then bf out to dinner all the time when he was in college and I was working.

[–]Nemobeenfound1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

And?

[–]i_have_a_semicolon1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

So it's not unreasonable to expect women to want to pitch in and help their male partner out for dinner now and then?

[–]Nemobeenfound1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

There's a difference in pitching in and treating someone.

[–]i_have_a_semicolon1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Not a big difference no.

[–]Nemobeenfound1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Big enough that the difference is noticeable.

[–]i_have_a_semicolon1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I don't see how the difference is "noticable". I think women can treat men, pitch in, etc. It doesn't make a big difference

[–]Nemobeenfound1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I am not arguing that women can't pitch in or treat men. I am arguing there's a difference in pitching in and offering to treat men.

[–]i_have_a_semicolon1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I guess but I don't see a big difference tbh. But I'm "different" apparently? I like spending my money on my guy, it's only fair. He spends his money on me too!

[–]MercedesBenzoAMGbringing percocets molly percocet back to ppd0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I'd say "I can't afford to get dinner tonight but if you want to take me out I'll take you home and make it worth while ;)"

That's how it's done!

[–]Nemobeenfound -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

men can still go Dutch with a woman

And not get a second date.

then just select for women who understands hard work and money and doesn't feel entitled to yours.

Your funny.

[–]i_have_a_semicolonPurple Pill Woman1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

If men allow shitty behavior and award it it will continue.

For the record I've paid for my fiance's food before and it's not a big deal

[–]Nemobeenfound 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

Men largely have no choice but to allow shitty behavior if they want a second date.

[–]i_have_a_semicolonPurple Pill Woman2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

Why you want and second date with a women who exibits shitty entitled personality traits is beyond me

[–]Nemobeenfound 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Because its called compromising. No one is ever going to be flawless and totally and utterly perfect. Its much more about are the flawless the person has is something we are willing to put up with. Tho in this case its much more about dating traditions that haven't changed. Something it seems that basically all women in this sub and to some extent BP men haven't realized. As the lot of you think dating traditions have change and no more. Reality is they haven't.

[–]i_have_a_semicolon2 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The reality is they have in many cases. Though I wouldn't say 100% have made the transition many have. The more men "put up" with these flaws the more they will fester and grow. Just put your foot down and say "I would love to take you out for dinner and get to know you better, but I think that it's fair to want to split the bill when it comes to most dates. I mean women are strong and independent right?" Wink nudge

[–]Nemobeenfound1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The more men "put up" with these flaws the more they will fester and grow.

Not really. All it means is more women will push back. No one likes their privilege being threatened least attacked.

[–]i_have_a_semicolon1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I didn't mind.

[–]Nemobeenfound1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You a single woman. I am talking about women as a group.

[–]i_have_a_semicolon1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Okay, and why do you think there arent more women like me? Why does everyone want to cater to shittty women's demands .

[–]Nemobeenfound1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Okay, and why do you think there arent more women like me?

Female privilege and that women not willing to forgo dating traditions. I mean hell its 2018 and women aren't asking men out but still demanding and wanting the man ask her out and that be the breadwinner.

Why does everyone want to cater to shittty women's demands .

Not doing so means you remain single.

[–]Million-SunsMarriage is obsolete0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

To her man :blink twice if you are under pressure.

(it's a joke)

[–]i_have_a_semicolonPurple Pill Woman2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Lol I get the joke it's funny. No blinking tho ;)

[–]justtypingcuz -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

Ya you better come check in. Or you're banned from Los angeles.

[–]i_have_a_semicolonPurple Pill Woman0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Heh he's a genuine guy and I don't give a fuck about LA

[–]justtypingcuz 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

You gon be the next sixnine.

[–]i_have_a_semicolonPurple Pill Woman2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Dunno if I was supposed to get it but I didn't

[–]i_have_a_semicolonPurple Pill Woman1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Oh the 69th post on the thread LOL

[–]TheMedsPedsBlue Pill Woman5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

My husband and I have always split the bill on everything since the inception of our relationship.

That nasty poisonous feminism or egalitarianism that yall hate? It empowers women to go to college and provide for themselves.

When women do this they don't need men to pay for them. If a woman sees a man as her equal she will pay for herself, then sometimes he can pay, and then sometimes she can pay.

Also, men are typically stronger than women, yes, I will not deny that. But women can open carry a firearm or learn a martial art and not necessarily NEED a man to protect her.

[–]Nemobeenfound 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

That nasty poisonous feminism or egalitarianism that yall hate? It empowers women to go to college and provide for themselves.

And that empowers women to want their cake and eat it as well. Notice how feminism done nothing to remove let alone even remotely talk about female privileges? In fact feminism has make all female privilege somehow something about sexism instead.

When women do this they don't need men to pay for them.

But still want men to pay for them.

If a woman sees a man as her equal she will pay for herself, then sometimes he can pay, and then sometimes she can pay.

Ya that's totally utter bullshit. Tho I guess its no surprise given that your a woman and not a man. As in the real world that men have to date in women by and large aren't going to pay for themselves they want the man to pay. As men are STILL expected to be the breadwinner despite the gains women have had from feminism. As I already said women and that feminists want their cake and eat it as well.

But women can open carry a firearm or learn a martial art and not necessarily NEED a man to protect her.

That doesn't mean she doesn't WANT a man to protect her.

[–]TheMedsPedsBlue Pill Woman1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

It's really hard to argue with someone that thinks the world is still like 1950. I know shit tons of women that are sugar mommas and their man children boyfriend either don't work at all or work part time while the women support the both of them. These are anecdotes of course. I just know for a fact that though what you are saying probably happens quite often, it's not the only exeperience.

Feminism has it's problems, especially 4th wave (thinnk obese, blue haired college kid screaming about video games) because women do have equal rights now and all feminists have to whine about is trivial shit. But that doesn't change the good things it did in the past and it's original message.

If you refuse to believe there are a huge portion of women out there that are okay with "going Dutch" ehh, idk man, sorry that you are wrong????

[–]Nemobeenfound 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It's really hard to argue with someone that thinks the world is still like 1950.

Even tho I don't. You don't seem to get that despite it being 2018 loads of dating traditions are still around. One is women still expecting the man to pay and that be the breadwinner. This is besides expecting men to approach women and what have you. You can disagree as much as you want, but clearly you aren't a man nor have the slightest clue what dating is like for men as a whole.

These are anecdotes of course. I just know for a fact that though what you are saying probably happens quite often, it's not the only exeperience.

I know its not. But locally where I live its very much RP land.

Feminism has it's problems, especially 4th wave (thinnk obese, blue haired college kid screaming about video games) because women do have equal rights now and all feminists have to whine about is trivial shit.

4th wave is on its way. And feminists do whine over trivial shit, but that doesn't stop them from wanting their cake and eating it as well. As I don't see feminists telling or promoting women to ask men out. I don't see feminism telling women to go dutch or pay for dates. I really don't see feminists at all pushing to change dating traditions because women benefit from them

If you refuse to believe there are a huge portion of women out there that are okay with "going Dutch" ehh, idk man, sorry that you are wrong????

So I am wrong because you think I am. Got it. This is even tho I least linked a poll showing the vast majority of women still expect the man to pay.

[–]JezebeltheQueen5656Crushing males' ego since 19932 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Men GET to become protectors of a smaller and physically useless human female

oh, I like when males are this direct; if only you were so in real life.

[–]LifterofThingsDelicate Feminine Flower1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

And yet they decide to do it anyway. How about you go ask those men why they still choose to pursue women, because it's pretty obvious that you're not going to listen to logic if it's spoken by women because vaginas are evil or whatever.

[–]TheBookOfSeilCuckleberry Finn1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Like what?

[–]TheBlackQuillMisanthrope5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

some men enjoy companionship from women. Now you maybe thinking, it can be obtained from friends/pets or whatevs. But hey, some people just have different value they appreciate. It is not different from people who loves chocolate and who dont. :/

[–]TheBookOfSeilCuckleberry Finn0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

some men enjoy companionship from women.

I get companionship from friends, some of whom are women, so we don't necessarily need companionship in the form of romantic relationships with the opposite sex to be satisfied.

Also, meow :3

[–]TheBlackQuillMisanthrope0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Hehe hello kittyy

[–]MercedesBenzoAMGbringing percocets molly percocet back to ppd0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

What kind of fucking weirdo doesn't love chocolate? Now we got beef.

[–]EmoryUpton 3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Meh. There are a great many of us who live very happily on the savory end of the spectrum rather than the sweet.

[–]jackandjill22Red Pill misanthropic, contrarian0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Not really. Women provide almost nothing to a mans life. They're like children are to women & consist of extensive liabilities & time investments.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

You should be a comedian

[–]HairbrainerWhy can't we be friends?7 points8 points9 points 8 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

I don’t get where the joke is

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Women are a liability.

[–]HairbrainerWhy can't we be friends?2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

A liability for what?

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

All the things

[–]HairbrainerWhy can't we be friends?0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Such as? And how?

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I am joking

[–]HairbrainerWhy can't we be friends?-1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Meh

[–]newName543456went volcel-1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Because they think they have more to gain by being with a woman than by not because they didn't evaluate alternatives.

Isn't THAT obvious?

[–]thejarjarbinks694 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

Shaming only accelerates the exponential growth of MGTOW, keep at it PPD.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

So if MGTOW grows... what then?

I mean, why should others care? To me as a man - it would just mean less competition. Although if you buy into the "sour grapes" hypothesis of MGTOW, it may not mean much of a change.

[–]thejarjarbinks692 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Destroyed gender relations will dominate the news/research/directed activities of the government in 10 years from now for Japan, 25 years for western society.

Depopulation. Unsustainable % of population being seniors. Flight of capital. Brain drain. Among many others.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

But why? I mean - even if you assume the mgtow dudes actually are competition to the other men - doesn’t this just make everything easier for other men - thus making it way easier for the others to succeed ?

[–]thejarjarbinks692 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

That's the same thing they said when women were sexually liberated, but now we see only the top 20% getting casual sex?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Did they say the same thing then? That mgtow was just removing competition ?

[–]Arlybigstickk1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I truly don't think that the mgtows are competition. I could be wrong though.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah that would be the “sour grapes” view of mgtow.

[–]PennnyLameMade a margarita once12 points13 points14 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Because they get value from women in their lives. They get the social perks of having a female companion as well as the validation of having someone choose them.

Why a normal would ever “go his own way” is beyond me.

[–]changeIsTheWay 20 points21 points22 points 8 years ago (37 children) | Copy Link

Because MGTOW is cope and they are coping incels in denial.

[–]truedemocracy3Such An Asshole!17 points18 points19 points 8 years ago (21 children) | Copy Link

Yep. Most red pillers recognize MGTOW as a joke. It is male rationalization (term 'Hamster' is fucking stupid, both genders rationalize things to themselves) that they are choosing not to get laid when in reality women make the choice for them

[–]changeIsTheWay 7 points8 points9 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Most true red pillers recognize TRP as a joke too xP

[–]squidracer 16 points17 points18 points 8 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

Most mgtows think red pillers are a joke. And they are. Bunch of spregs who make up fake field reports

[–]Atlas_B_Shruggin🔪Yeetus that Feetus🔪3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

I'm adopting "spreg" as a term

[–]prostate-apostatespectacle beta0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

It's been around for years.

[–]Atlas_B_Shruggin🔪Yeetus that Feetus🔪0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Spreg has? OK. I know sperg has, nothing comes up when you Google spreg

[–]prostate-apostatespectacle beta0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

It's ubiquitous term on 4chan which means autistic individuals . The full version of it being sperg lord
https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/sperglord

It can also be used to mean autistic episode.

I got rejected by a girl so I sperged out in front of class and I can't show my face tomorrow .

[–]Atlas_B_Shruggin🔪Yeetus that Feetus🔪2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

SPREG not SPERG

[–]i_have_a_semicolonPurple Pill Woman0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Lol she got u

[–]prostate-apostatespectacle beta0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

???

[–]i_have_a_semicolonPurple Pill Woman0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

SPREG not SPERG

[–]truedemocracy3Such An Asshole!4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Majority probably are spergs. It is reddit after all. Until proven otherwise I assume everyone I interact with has a low SMV

[–]abaxeron✴️Indian Programmer1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

A lot of MGTOWs seem to think of Reddit's "red pillers" just as they deserve - as of blue pillers slightly repacked.

[–]oftheinfinite 1 points1 points1 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I agree. Red Pillers are retards.

[–]squidracer 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

But they are total among of the group brah! Gotta hold that frame while blasting tren to get that hb8

[–]changeIsTheWay 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Both are jokes. TRPers it is. Real red pill is where it is at. Red pill outside reddit.

[–]StaySkepticYT 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I'm kind of out of the loop but it almost seems like non reddit redpill is completely different and a lot less pathetic.

[–]changeIsTheWay 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It’s basically mostly black pill minus the whining of black pillers/incels and takes in the few non pathetic aspects of TRP.

[–]Million-SunsMarriage is obsolete3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

And most MGTOW find red pillers as slaves to the pussy chase. Aka frauds who are still into the matrix.

[–]truedemocracy3Such An Asshole!0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

fair enough. I can see that.

[–]FractalChinchilla0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

that they are choosing not to get laid when in reality women make the choice for them

It's been my observation that Incels, are not Incels, they just lack something.

There are two positions at play here, one that advocate that men are in control of their sex lives, and another that states that women are in control of men's sex life. You speak as though you don't acknowledge the existence of the other camp.

I find this, for lack of a better word, problematic. I think both sides have merit. Although I can't seem to ind a middle ground. What would you say to those who advocate the opposing PoV.

[–]jackandjill22Red Pill misanthropic, contrarian0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

No, a lot of them respect them. They say they're the opposite of PUA, all frame no game.

[–]RepresentativeData5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

This I kind of agree with. Although there probably are some MGTOW who still have sex with women. If you say you have sex there some of them are like: "Oh my god, you had sex? You just put pussy on a pedestal. We don't do that around here in these parts. I bet you performed like a monkey to get it and had to pay for a date!" And then Chad will be like: "No I didn't pay for a date, we just had sex." Then the coping MGTOW incel be like: "Well you payed for it with your time! Women are a waste of time maaaaann, pursue your hobbies."

[–]changeIsTheWay 6 points7 points8 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

YUP!

They are "Men Sent On Their Own Way"

[–]OfSpock4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

How do you have sex without using any time? Brush your teeth or post on facebook at the same time?

[–]decoy88Black Male in London3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

If lasts longer than the 5 minute pornhub clip it usually takes its not worth it

[–]Million-SunsMarriage is obsolete6 points7 points8 points 8 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

Actually the main core of MGTOW are divorce-raped fathers. so more volcels than incels.

What you do is the usual shaming tactic : MGTOW are all incels losers. Disgusting. I thought that was banned in PPD threads. Guess not.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.7 points8 points9 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Making a blanket opinion about a demographic isn’t “shaming,” unless you think the terper/MGTOW posts about how awful/worthless/stupid/[insert negative opinion] women are is also “shaming.”

Unless someone is personally insulting a user it is not automatically banned just because it says something negative about a specific demographic.

[–]changeIsTheWay 8 points9 points10 points 8 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

Actually the main core of MGTOW are divorce-raped fathers. so more volcels than incels.

yes its because they are dumb to follow the betabux advice.

What you do is the usual shaming tactic : MGTOW are all incels losers. Disgusting. I thought that was banned in PPD threads. Guess not.

Most weren't hot shit, ever.

[–]Million-SunsMarriage is obsolete5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

yes its because they are dumb to follow the betabux advice.

That's not an advice. That's the results of hundred years of brainwashing telling men their traditonal roles in society should be. aka disposable ATMs. Men who become MGTOW are the ones who say :"enough".

Most weren't hot shit, ever

? they were hot enough to get married and have a wife? I don't get your point at all. Stop using shaming tactics. That tells more about you than the ones you are targeting. Aren't you projecting your own insecurities there?

[–]changeIsTheWay 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

That's not an advice. That's the results of hundred years of brainwashing telling men their traditonal roles in society should be. aka disposable ATMs. Men who become MGTOW are the ones who say :"enough".

Yes then blame the brainwashing.

? they were hot enough to get married and have a wife? I don't get your point at all. Stop using shaming tactics. That tells more about you than the ones you are targeting. Aren't you projecting your own insecurities there?

They were career orientated enough where the woman was able to get past their subhumanness.

[–]Million-SunsMarriage is obsolete3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Yes then blame the brainwashing

That's what they do. Along with the people responsible...

They were career orientated enough where the woman was able to get past their subhumanness

So not being hot according to /u/changeIsTheWay unidentified criteria= being a subhuman...got it.

[–]changeIsTheWay -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

According to non-TRP red pill and black pill, ues.

[–]squidracer 5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

most weren't hot shit ethier

Most mgtows have already had relationships. Red pillers are the desperate losers trying to game trailer park whores.

[–]changeIsTheWay 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

They have relationships via BETABUX.

[–]BiggerDthanYouBluetopia20 points21 points22 points 8 years ago (58 children) | Copy Link

Why would they? What do normal men have to gain from it? Normal men can enjoy female companionship.

[–]truedemocracy3Such An Asshole!15 points16 points17 points 8 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

This is true. MGTOWers and incels live in their own internet bubble where they think some gender war is going on.

Regular men can and choose to have female companionship. Bachelors choose to live a single life but occasionally have female companionship. MGTOW convince themselves they are choosing but really the choice is made for them - they are just extremely low value and weird guys

[–]crackrocksteady7Jason tell me what you're chasing9 points10 points11 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Bachelors choose to live a single life but occasionally have female companionship

this is the true mgtow life not reddit men sent their own way and it's pretty popular nowadays

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Oh so you do like women now?

[–]crackrocksteady7Jason tell me what you're chasing2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

?

[–]oftheinfinite 1 points1 points1 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You seem to be a TRPer who is pissed off at MGTOW for not stooping to pathetic lows like PUA and all that laughable tactics that don't work unless you are basically David Gandy and Christian Bale.

The regular guy argument never gets old and is quite tiresome. Regular guys are basically one-dimensional men who require the validation of one-dimensional women, men who are afflicted with male mother need, and women's and feminist's problems are all targeting regular guys, funnily enough. If regular guys are so well and good, they wouldn't but shat on at every opportunity and would not be considered low value and weird, telling by the plethora of articles and publications targeting these regular guys.

Also, the b.s argument of not having a relationship never gets old. Firstly, MGTOW are against marriage and cohabitation, and the traditionalist lifestyle and gender roles, and not against relationships and sex. It's just that MGTOW don't need or want a relationship. If they do, they want a modern version of a relationship where men's autonomy and individuality is respected and independent of female approval and validation. Basically, MGTOW want a separation of living space (she has her own place) and finances and the MGHOW wants the woman to pull her weight, which means absolutely NO TRADITIONALISM. The woman must work and contribute to the relationship equally. Regular guys do not have autonomy. I see that for myself with friends and family. A MGTOW does not have a 'man cave' whereas a regular guy does. A MGHOW doesn't have a woman dictating through feminine guile what he does, when, and why, but a regular guy does. A MGTOW lifestyle can be good for truly independent women too. MGTOWs don't want fighting and arguing, resolution, and then fighting and arguing again.

Moreover, there is difference between bachelorhood and MGTOW: bachelorhood is temporary and could be a pussy-whipped blue pill feminist who loves taking shots at men at every given opportunity. I can like the difference between Men's Rights movement and MensLib, where Men's Rights is done completely independent of feminism and Men's Lib depends on the feminist lens. A man going his own way is aware of gynocentrism, does not attack his fellow man unless deserved, and seeks to protect himself and his interests, especially from the daily grind that brings along stress and misery. Also, he does not engage in gynocentric behaviors such as white knighting and peacocking, which are behaviors bachelors love engaging in. Most MGTOW are wary of interacting with women because of the STDs, their desire to control the man and his activities, and the female in-group preference and hive mind manifested in feminism, which is female nature politicized. Also, MGTOW cannot tolerate certain aspects of female behavior like talking about stupid things and gossiping. They want tranquility and peace of mind.

MGTOW convince themselves they are choosing but really the choice is made for them - they are just extremely low value and weird guys

That is your opinion and you cannot verify that. MGTOW do choose, whether you believe it or not, like it or not. Women are not worth the time and effort for a lot of men, including blue pill bachelors. Imagine having to work a blue collar job, say tearing out a furnace and installing a new one, which requires that the old and new furnaces being taken out and into the house, and then coming home to an average at best looking woman who sits on her flat, non-existent ass to cook a sub-par meal and then demand that you do your own laundry, take out the garbage, and mow the lawn. And then boring sex. If that makes men who don't want this for themselves low value and weird, then they'd gladly be just that.

Coltaine on Domestic Parasitism:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJGdw20pNgQ

[–]squidracer 6 points7 points8 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I would even go as far to say that those who use the most shaming language against other men are the ones who get laid the least.

Seriously, how many players do you know who are worried about the sex life of other men?

[–]decoy88Black Male in London2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

But like, can't these guys just be in a relationship without being a sucker?

[–]oftheinfinite 1 points1 points1 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

But how can you not be a sucker when a man's existence needs to be approved and validated by the women he is attracted to? Funny how men need TRP/MRP to not be suckers. It is almost as if just being in a relationship is handing her power. Why is that men need TRP and MRP when they are already married or want to be in a relationship or just have sex? MGTOW see that men put in a disproportionate amount of relationship effort from A to Z, and that is not even including actually approaching and getting rejected. Men have to be fit, strong--physically and emotionally, and etc. but women can lose sexual/physical attraction to her husband the moment he "loses frame". Men disproportionately suffer from post-relationship depression and women seem to easily just move on like nothing happened.

[–]decoy88Black Male in London5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

This is such a small one track minded way of thinking. Relationships are meant to be collaborative not antagonistic. If you're constantly thinking of things as a power play and being in charge of one another of course you think being in a relationship is "handing her power" power to do what exactly? Power to spend time with her (which you both want)? Power to have kids in a stable home (which you both want)? Power over sex (which you both want)?

The point about teamwork is that it's people coming together to reach a shared goal.

Men don't have to be anything. If you feel too much pressure on something then that girl just isn't the right fit (no matter how hot she is).

Men put in more effort? Move on less easily? What metric are you using?

There's no "men more" or "women more" it's the individuals involved. Ffs.

It's like swearing off all games because I don't first person shooters. It's stupid and defeatist AF

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

But how can you I not be a sucker when a man's my existence needs to be approved and validated by the women he is I am attracted to? Funny how men need TRP/MRP to not be suckers. It is almost as if just being in a relationship is handing her power. Why is that men need TRP and MRP when they are already married or want to be in a relationship or just have sex? MGTOW see that men put in a disproportionate amount of relationship effort from A to Z, and that is not even including actually approaching and getting rejected. Men have to be fit, strong, attractive--physically and emotionally, and etc. but women can lose sexual/physical attraction to her husband the moment he "loses frame". I believe that if I don't conform to standards I believe to be impossible to uphold, no woman will ever want to be with me

Fixed it for you

[–]Freethetreees3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

If that makes men who don't want this for themselves low value and weird, then they'd gladly be just that

You could have tldr'd your long winded diatribe with that.

[–]RepresentativeData0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

You seem to be a TRPer who is pissed off at MGTOW for not stooping to pathetic lows like PUA and all that laughable tactics that don't work unless you are basically David Gandy and Christian Bale (Chad Thundercocks).

How many womenz have you approached?

[–]squidracer 1 points1 points1 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Come back to us after your divorce

[–]TheGreasyPoleObjectively Pro-moderate filth[M] 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Be Civil

[–]squidracer 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

How is that not civil?

[–]TheGreasyPoleObjectively Pro-moderate filth[M] 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Didn't sound very civil to me.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

When did you become a mod?

[–]TheGreasyPoleObjectively Pro-moderate filth4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

About 2 hours ago, because Cuitler wore me down by asking nicely.

Now I have my hands on the mighty Banhammer of Justice!

I had to promise her to abuse it very rarely, and only when I really, really, really want to.

[–]MercedesBenzoAMGbringing percocets molly percocet back to ppd0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Holy shit haha. You'll be a good mod tho, good choice. Enjoy the pleasures of modding!

[–]crackrocksteady7Jason tell me what you're chasing6 points7 points8 points 8 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

Why would they? What do normal men have to gain from it?

never getting ripped apart from your bros and hobbies which women love to do is the #1 reason for me

[–]HairbrainerWhy can't we be friends?7 points8 points9 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

What about the women who want to share your hobbies? Or who like your friends?

[–]MercedesBenzoAMGbringing percocets molly percocet back to ppd1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

To be fair though, in the long-term when most guys and girls alike pair off they do end up losing contact with even their close friends. It's not a gendered phenomenon, it's just the way it is.

If staying in contact with your friends is a high personal priority, avoiding LTRs is not a bad idea as long as your friends also do the same.

[–]RockinSocksII25F poiple INTP - Not single, Eastuss needs to know this9 points10 points11 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

never getting ripped apart from your bros and hobbies which women love to do is the #1 reason for me

? I've never done this to my boyfriend. You should date better women.

[–]crackrocksteady7Jason tell me what you're chasing3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

You should date better women.

found a good one that doesnt view me having fun as competition for her, ltring her now

[–]RockinSocksII25F poiple INTP - Not single, Eastuss needs to know this3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm so happy for you. :)

[–]Orange_Paisley5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Dear lord, I wish my partner had bros and hobbies. I love him dearly but I need my own down time too.

[–]i_have_a_semicolonPurple Pill Woman3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Echo the other two users. Yesterday I spent half the day skiing and the remainder hanging with my fiance's friends from college and enjoyed myself. Two things I wouldn't have done out of my own volition. But I got into skiing because my fiance loves it and I think he's got great friends who are more than welcoming to me in their group. After 6 years this hasn't changed so IMO you're not dating the right women

[–]TheChemist158Non-Feminist Blue Pill Woman2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

So don't date a women who does that.

[–]FalseBuddhaSomething borrowed, something Blue3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Set boundaries and keep them.

[–]VermiciousKnidzzBlue Pill Man2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

never getting ripped apart from your bros and hobbies which women love to do is the #1 reason for me

this is abusive. isolating your partner no matter your gender is horrible. there are plenty of people who don't do this.

[–]crackrocksteady7Jason tell me what you're chasing1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

there are plenty of people who don't do this.

That's true, but there are very many examples of ways you just don't have the same freedom in a relationship as a bachelor, even when you're not with a bitch actively isolating you. With the bachelor life you can do whatever you want whenever you want. Nobody is there to judge you on a single one of your actions or purchases

[–]VermiciousKnidzzBlue Pill Man0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

That's true, but there are very many examples

could you spare any examples?

Its assumed that someone in a monogamous relationship isn't interested in casual sex with strangers. Under this assumption, what can John the Bachelor do that James Ball-and-Chain cant?

[–]crackrocksteady7Jason tell me what you're chasing0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Outside of a relationship I can spend entire weekends on my hobby stuff and hanging out with my bros, that's just not possible with an ltr stuff like that isn't realistic.

[–]reluctantly_red1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Normal men can enjoy female companionship

We're genetically programed to want women around. There is really no getting over this. We'll do really stupid stuff and enter into ill advised arrangements to, at least temporarily, secure female companionship.

[–]AntiAbleism[S] 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

Why is the risk worth it?

[–]HairbrainerWhy can't we be friends?5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

The risk of what?

[–]AntiAbleism[S] 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

Divorce rape, being #MeTooed etc.

[–]HairbrainerWhy can't we be friends?12 points13 points14 points 8 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

Divorce isn’t just a thing that happens though, it’s not like a chance occurrence.

And as far as the #metoo thing goes, isn’t the main way to avoid it just, I don’t know, not harass a woman?

[–]squidracer 7 points8 points9 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Divorce doesn't happen at all if a man doesn't get married 🤔

[–]HairbrainerWhy can't we be friends?3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Neither does a fulfilling marriage

[–]squidracer 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

That rarely happens for men anyway

[–]HairbrainerWhy can't we be friends?4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Lol k

[–]Million-SunsMarriage is obsolete4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Well,

77% of divorces are initiated by women. Only 4% are given the child custody and don't have to pay child support and spousal support. I mean what's the point for men to even marry knowing this?

And two, even if men don't harass women, they can still be the victim of a false accusation, which is not as rare as some may think and still ruins the man's life even if proved innocent thereafter.

Even if you demonstrate that the chances are very low, it only has to happen to us once.

Some men did the math and deemed the juice is not worth the squeeze.

[–]HairbrainerWhy can't we be friends?5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

100% of divorces happen for a reason. No divorces happen between couples who are compatible and communicate their needs to each other. So that’s why I’d marry.

If you feel it’s not good for you, then great. But to pretend it’s a universal law that all men would be better without women is living life with blinders.

[–]Million-SunsMarriage is obsolete1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

But to pretend it’s a universal law that all men would be better without women is living life with blinders.

"Better without women" is not the same as "better without marriage."

If a man wants to be with a woman fine. Just don't sign any paper.

[–]MercedesBenzoAMGbringing percocets molly percocet back to ppd1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Yep a bloke I knew just lost his job over a bad divorce where his wife falsely accused him rape. He was found not guilty of rape in court but still lost his job and kids over the whole affair.

[–]Million-SunsMarriage is obsolete1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link

You can enjoy female companionship presence and still be a MGTOW, aka not commit into a marriage or any other binding relationship and not actively chase them.

Not all MGTOW are into monk mode.

MGTOW is about giving the middle finger to social pressure and the traditional roles enforced onto men. A lot of anger is directed towards the gynocracy climate, but not necessarily towards the women per se.

But I concede that if you browse the MGTOW subbreddit, that's what you will most likely find.

So to answer your initial question: what do men gain from it? The advantages (sex) without the disadvantages that usually go with the package (divorce-rape, nagging, mind games etc.)

[–]squidracer 5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Actually the mgtow community has helped me even more then that. Many of the guys there helped me realize that i don't need to be a slave to women or my possessions.

Because of this i think I'm going to be able to go into semi retirement within the next year or sooner.

[–]GenieGenius0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

R/leanfire

[–]Sub_Corrector_Bot0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

You may have meant r/leanfire instead of R/leanfire.

Remember, OP may have ninja-edited. I correct subreddit and user links with a capital R or U, which are usually unusable.

-Srikar

[–]squidracer 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Hey, thanks

[–]Nemobeenfound 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

MGTOW is about giving the middle finger to social pressure and the traditional roles enforced onto men.

Exactly. People often equate the extreme end of MGTOW, ie the woman hating side of it, as being what MGTOW is like or is. Much like how people equate radical/extreme feminism as what feminism is all about.

[–]officerkondoMarried Redder Shade of Purple Man0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Many MGTOW are "normal" men who enjoy female companionship. However, they have never heard of "MGTOW" as a social movement. We used to call such men "confirmed bachelors" (yes, it didn't always mean "gay guy"). Think of John Cusack as an example.

I agree that as far as the named MGTOW movement goes, there seems to be a lot of sour grapes.

[–]jackandjill22Red Pill misanthropic, contrarian0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

What's enjoyable about that exactly, there's virtually a pricetag on just being around women when you're 20-something.

[–]TallSwaggOVO1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Define companionship? What do you interpret Mgtow as?

[–]BisquitBill 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

What, is this OP some kind of trap?

[–]TallSwaggOVO 1 points1 points1 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Not a lot of people know enough about it. Despite what these red-pillers may claim, the common person isn’t going to know what Mgtow is. It’s not as popular or mainstream as some of you think. I think if more people knew about the correct basis of what Mgtow is, they will be more likely to go along with it. I think it’s important, especially due to modern feminist spewing bullshit.

But also, you can Go Your Own Way without getting involved in the complaining that a lot of redpillers do on the internet. Mgtow doesn’t necessarily mean that you don’t enjoy any sort of companionship with women, it just means that you don’t make it a central focus. Any person that says that they are totally cutting women out of their life, and constantly trashing them, are just mad that they aren’t getting any pussy. Go your own way, but find a realistic balance.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Any person that says that they are totally cutting women out of their life, and constantly trashing them, are just mad that they aren’t getting any pussy.

Doesn't this seem to be the central focus of the sub though?

[–]TallSwaggOVO1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Yup. which is why TRP sub is turning into an absolute whining joke.

[–]Million-SunsMarriage is obsolete0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

True. I have been MGTOW since 2012 and only found out about the acronym and the community in late 2017.

[–]Arlybigstickk0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Are you by choice or slim selection? I'm not being an asshole, I'm just genuinely curious.

[–]Million-SunsMarriage is obsolete0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Honestly, both.

I rejected women I was not attracted to, and also got rejected by women.

I analyzed that my Sexual Market Value was too low for the targets I was aiming at despite countless hours of efforts in lifting working on personality, dressing well, being full shaved etc. which still allowed me to have moderate success.

My last targets chose wealthy men with no game. In addition my best friend got married and still suffers so much from spousal abuse. Another friend got taken advantage by a cheating girlfriend, and countless examples in my entourage of soldiers falling in combat to the female enemy or themselves.

When I did the math and added all the above up, I deemed the juice not worth the squeeze, got a very negative view of women in general and stopped actively chasing them.

[–]Arlybigstickk0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Pretty interesting read thank you.

[–]abaxeron✴️Indian Programmer2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Trick question. More men are going their own way; the trend is rather stable. So I'll have to reinterpret this question as "why didn't men go their own way 50 years ago or so".

A glitch in the matrix, if you will.

Post-WW2, having family and kids, and preferrably earlier, became "trendy". For example, Canada had more kids born by women in their 40s in early 20th century than now. I repeat - Canada had more kids born by women in their 40s in early 20th century than now. Countries that were more "intimately" involved in WW2 had even greater rates of "sudden after-war baby-rabies" (note the peak around year 1963). And then, when a generation changed, some bastards repacked this glitch and called it "Family Values And Tradition" - early-formed single-breadwinner family with more than 2 kids. Obviously, if it was "traditional", human population would be around 100 billion now. It is traditional for developed nations to have a good share of population as lifetime bachelors, and this tradition was abandoned only due to extreme circumstances. But snapping out of this "matrix glitch" requires some time. So, we're not going into Calhoun's extinction; we're simply returning to the norm. Women can have as many babies as late or early in life as they like, and by "can" I mean physically and biologically; and men who decide to dedicate themselves to helping those women propagate the species - are free to do it. But it cannot and should not be expected of everyone.

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Because most straight men are desperate for sex. Because male bisexuality is shamed to the point where many bisexual males live an heterosexual lifestyle for social acceptability reasons. Because many men fall in love with women and actually want women's company. Because men are told their manhood is contingent on serving women/being a good husband/wifing up that woman. Because men are also told their manhood is contingent upon crushing pussy. Because achieving the radical kind of psychological independence to go all Neitzschean-Overman and reject society's ideals of masculinity and live by one's own is simply not an easy thing to do.

In short, our society does its best to keep men sexually, romantically and gender-identity-wise dependent on women and women alone. There are alternatives on the gender-identity issue (in that there are other sources for "real manhood" validation) but these have costs as well. And the kind of psychological independence required to fully reject social norms and live by one's own principles is pretty hard to achieve, and I suspect doing so is never costless... social condemnation is almost never something that people can shrug off like water off a duck's back. That doesn't mean that social shaming always works, but it does mean those who resist it do still have psychic costs inflicted upon them by the process of doing so.

And biology doesn't help either. Men are more desperate for sex than women, on average. Women can afford to be pickier than men.

MGTOW is not easy.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The highly sexualized culture we live in makes it very difficult to. That and the slim-availability of prostitution in the US makes women have a bit of power over men's enjoyment.

[–]mgtow_11 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I see more and more "bachelors" all the time. I work with 3 men like this.

[–]Five_DecadesKnows what women want. Knows he doesn't have it1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Most mgtow are either incel mstow's (men sent their own way), or they've made terrible choices in women and had bad experiences until they gave up.

Most men aren't in that group.

Aren't something like 90% of men married or in a ltr by middle age?

[–]Entropy-7Old Goat1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Sex and female companionship is nifty. I went MGTOW for a few years (although that was back in the 80s and was not called that) because I had a full plate of studies, sports and a social life such that women were just clutter. Plus, I just had a spike in my SMV and I was disillusioned with women and how facile they are.

I came out of it a few years later when I met a really quality girl whom I almost married.

I really can't understand how a guy could go, say, 5 years or more hard MGTOW.

[–]the_calibre_cat1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Firmware, mostly.

[–]soupladlelad 1 points1 points1 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

It's a fairly new concept right? I'm around 30 and didn't hear of it til I was several years married.

If we split or she dies that will be it for me and women. There's plenty of happy to be had without the headache and risks.

[–]askmrcia1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Mgtow is not a new concept at all. It's nothing more than being a bachelor.

The only thing new about it is how this type of lifestyle is increasing in interest in more and more men.

[–]soupladlelad 1 points1 points1 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

In practice yes. The theory behind it is different.

I think when you day being a bachelor it implies a man who is a player and selfishly doesn't want to settle down because he doesn't see the benefits of relationships.

MGTOW suggests that relationships are actively risky, disadvantageous, and even damaging to men.

I do enjoy relationships and my marriage is a happy one so I didn't value bachelorhood or stay a bachelor. But the MGTOW argument is true in my opinion so I would never remarry.

[–]askmrcia0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

MGTOW suggests that relationships are actively risky, disadvantageous, and even damaging to men.

This is basically what a bachelor is. You're pretty much saying the same thing as it relates to MGTOW.

I guess you can say the only difference is that MGTOW doesn't preach to be a player. You can if you want, but its not required.

But yes, how you described bachelorhood is pretty much the same as being a MGTOW.

I'm reading the comments here and its exactly what I expected. Shaming MGTOWS as if they are all incels. Bachelor's get the same shame by the way except its more of "you're a man child who's afraid of commitment due to your bad experiences" as to MGTOW shaming where its "you're a fat incel virgin who lives in your mother's basement."

Like some of the comments here are "men sent their own way". But again, bachelor's get shamed as well.

Same thing, different sides of the coin.

[–]Aggressive_BetaBeta Male1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Because we like getting laid.

[–]crackrocksteady7Jason tell me what you're chasing4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

most men are boring af and live boring lives so they need validation and all that other stuff from women

[–]GenieGenius5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The same is true for women.

[–]squidracer 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

Boom. Most of them just need someone to watch TV with while they both become fat

[–]GenieGenius3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

Same is true for women. The only difference is that they get to select who they watch TV with rather than be selected.

[–]squidracer 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

Eh, i still don't think that's really true. Guys get to select and break up with girls just as much

[–]GenieGenius1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

No they don't. Women have much, much higher selection criteria for male mates when it comes to short term sexual and romantic interest.

[–]squidracer 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Bullshit

[–]GenieGenius-1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

https://arxiv.org/abs/1607.01952

[–]squidracer 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Tinder isn't the real world

[–]GenieGenius0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

You're the one living in a fantasy world if you think men can get women to agree to have sex with them as easily as woman can get men to agree to have sex with them.

[–]squidracer 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

No, your comment was about finding someone to watch tv with, implying relationships.

[–]incelchad1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

For once we agree

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[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I think a lot of them are. Actually going your own way doesn't mean conspicuously ceding the steersmanship of your life to trying to avoid 50% of everyone. It's like playing "the floor is lava" but with people. Hard to call such a restricted path freedom.

[–]Maikowski2 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Some do, some don't. Some know their way, some don't. Why aren't men losing weight? I don't know, maybe they are content with their looks? Same for men staying in same place and listening to what society tells them to do.

Going your own way means not caring what others do. So why do you OP not go your own way? Answer this question and you will have the answer.

[–]thisisashittyaccountRed Pill Teen0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

More men are going their own way, just not to the extreme that people say they are.

Humans need companionship and others to fill their sexual desires. Simple as that.

[–]wtknightHardcore Romantic0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Many men like the consistent sex and companionship that they get through a relationship with a woman.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Why would they want to “go their own way”?

[–]LifterofThingsDelicate Feminine Flower0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Because for those men, the potential rewards of relationships with women outweigh the risks.

[–]MisterJose0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Which way would that be?

[–]Arobin080 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Most men aren't losers who are afraid of women?

[–]Prince-Noctis 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Go your own way. Why do you give a fuck? You're doing it wrong if you think it's some kind of movement--it's for the individual level.

[–]DissentientUnplugged0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I fall under the strictest definitions of MGTOW, but I don't see any reason to form communities over that. It would be like non-owners of cars discussing it how much it would suck to own a car. You can't really discuss absence of something.

I think that most men who would be happier alone already made that choice, without the help of internet communities.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

  1. I haven't been totally scorned by women, maybe I'm just a lucky person

  2. I feel like MGTOW does away with a large degree of male social responsibility (in the Jordan Peterson sense) which gives men a sense of purpose and, in turn, happiness. Maybe I'm just a rosy-eyed idealist, though.

[–]1UPZ__0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Because the more conservative and traditional men are still in limbo... not realizing the truth that it really is stacked against them.

Give it time....

[–]Luffysstrawhat0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Some men like to learn the hard way you don't choose to go mgtow right out of the gate it often happens after a traumatic experience with a partner you can either try again or turn your back I chose the latter some men will try their whole lives and never be satisfied with their relationships it is what it is.

[–]PrieneNon-Red Pill0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Because it's nearly impossible for a mentally healthy young man to go without sex for more than a month or so?

[–]squidracer 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Boredom

[–]skizzleshiver1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Because there are better options out there in my opinion.

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