Women, do you want liberty or security?

fakingandnotmakingit · 2024-12-18T19:54:32+00:00

The thing about choices is that we're free to disapprove of other people's choices too!

I disapprove of one of my friends having commitment issues. But it's not my life so it's their problem and not mine.

Why is everything so extreme for you people? Honestly.

No I don't want arranged marriages or parental veto. Yes, I want my parents to approve of my partner because I have a good relationship with my parents and we mostly share the same values.

By law we should have some sort of age of consent to protect our most vulnerable. With Romeo and Juliet exceptions (17 and 16 okay. 25 and 16 no.). My preference would be 18, allowing for two years either side. So 16 year olds can have sex with their peers but certainly not older. And yes if you are older than 20 it's your responsibility to say no to someone underaged. Idc if they pursued you.

Assuming you have good relationships with your parents means you will naturally want their approval anyway. Heck people with bad parents end up wanting their approval regardless

If you have bad parents then letting them have control, even a little bit, is a bad idea. And we shouldn't be culturally allowing that.

I think our current western paradigm is fine. People are able to make their own mistakes and successes. We are able to choose our degree of parental involvement and we have age of consent laws. I would want those to be stronger (e.g. no child marriages allowed regardless of parental consent. Looking at you Utah).

Most people don't move out of their parents house until after 18 so for the most part you'll have some degree over parental control then anyway

Feisty-Saturn · 2024-12-18T20:38:26+00:00

I’m confused by the argument.

How does me picking my own partner remove security?

What does a 16 year old with clear trauma and issues ending up with a predator have to do with liberty?

Kingozejungle · 2024-12-18T20:01:29+00:00

Well I have a secure and settled relationship with a man I had the liberty to choose

TheHypocrisy97 · 2024-12-18T19:43:14+00:00

You can disapprove of something and still believe someone should have a right to do it/believe it/want it. Freedom versus anything else. If you aren’t free you’re a slave.

ConanTheCybrarian · 2024-12-18T20:03:54+00:00

who is offering us this liberty?

who is providing the security?

leosandlattes · 2024-12-18T19:45:08+00:00

The title of your post assumes that we have to pick one or the other instead of having both.

I also have no idea what you mean by security in this way - are you saying arranged marriages are security?

DXBrigade · 2024-12-18T20:05:05+00:00

I don't care about age gaps as long as they are both adults which is not the case in your example. A 50 year old sleeping with a high schooler is gross even if it's legal,especially if it's your child's friend (remind me of Jada's "entanglement" Pinkett-Smith).

Also parents don't necessarily have their daughter's best interest in mind and might just pimp her out to some old man.

fiftypoundpuppy · 2024-12-18T20:22:51+00:00

I fundamentally reject the idea that parents always want what's best for their children, or that "what's best" can be objectively determined in the first place. Chinese men are "finding wives" in some parts of Africa, where the family (namely the men in the family) negotiate for the best deal to sell off their female relatives. Obviously what the woman wants herself is moot. "He's safe" "he can provide" etc. are not the only factors to a good relationship, if you actually GAF about the happiness of the woman herself. This view essentially treats women as irrelevant to their own lives.

I don't understand why we must mandate all women be "subjected to her parents' choice" instead of the current paradigm, which is that the women themselves can seek or require her parents' approval if she so chooses. Men who advocate for "women being subjected to some extent to their parents' choice in their partner" can't escape from the fact that they are advocating for a society where - instead of women have the option for this input - making it mandatory.

For your example, well first of all a 16-year-old isn't a "woman" so let's start there. She's in fucking high school. Can she make the decision to hit on late-middle-aged men? Sure. But it's distinctly abnormal and most sane people would recognize that there's likely some trauma causing this behavior. It has nothing to do with thinking she's a "naive little baby," and everything to do with recognizing abnormal attraction and sexual behavior. A 50-year-old "resisting at first" but ultimately caving in to the pursuit by a fucking child is abhorrent. "Age of consent" doesn't make someone a legal adult, which is why in most places these ages are two different numbers.

And others have already addressed your ridiculous strawman that freedom of choice must necessarily mean approval of all choices.

Your idea of "security" is asinine since you narrowly define it as "parental approval" and your description of "liberty" being "approval of any and every choice a female makes" is not how women actually describe it. This entire post is a contrived strawman in order to portray women as unreasonable. Your "annoyance" is your own fault.

Whoreasaurus_Rex · 2024-12-18T19:57:06+00:00

Okay, so that's a no on security.

What does an arranged marriage have to do with a woman's security?

MyLastBestChance · 2024-12-18T20:33:08+00:00

Just because we advocate for the freedom to make choices doesn’t mean that we can’t criticize those who choose poorly. That’s part of what freedom is.

Whether or not the age on consent should be 16 without any Romeo and Juliet clause is a different conversation. We can agree that adults should have the freedom to make poor choices without agreeing that they should be able to make those poor choices at the expense of those who aren’t adults.

CatallaxyRanch · 2024-12-18T21:39:50+00:00

I value liberty over security. That said, I do think most 16-year-old girls are naive and that a 50-year-old man pursuing a girl that young is a creep, even if it's legal. I don't necessarily want the man prosecuted and jailed, but I think the adults in the girl's life have a responsibility to protect her to the best of their ability. There are a lot of things that are legal for my kids to do, that I don't want to be illegal, but would still try to protect them from until I think they're old and responsible enough to handle it.

flipsidetroll · 2024-12-18T20:03:19+00:00

It’s always soooo black and white with you turnips. The choices are always extreme opposites. That’s very telling. Because it means your views don’t stand up to normal life. It only works when you use crazy scenarios. And how the fuck are arranged marriages a security for women?

Fab_Glam_Obsidiam · 2024-12-18T19:45:34+00:00

I want personal liberation and societal security. Both are possible.

The only problems I see with the scenario described is that the girl's friend might be upset, and if the guy is married then he's cheating on his wife. Personal liberty doesn't entail the right to cause damages to others.

abnabatchan · 2024-12-18T20:13:41+00:00

a pre-feminist 'arranged marriage' type of thing

what would lead you to believe these men would keep their promises and actually provide any security? I unfortunately come from a culture where these sorts of marriages are still predominantly common. the vast majority of people who engage in them come from very traditional, religious, poor, and highly uneducated backgrounds, and most of them actually live below average lives, like financially. so, I really don't really understand what kind of "security" you're talking about? but maybe you're talking about a very specific type of men? the ones in their 30s or 40s, super rich and stable, looking for a girl half their age through an arranged marriage? basically, they just want to buy a young girl and turn her into their personal sexdoll/baby making machine. if that's what you're talking about, then sure, I guess there’s some twisted financial security in that, but again, personally I'd rather kill myself than live like that.

Flightlessbirbz · 2024-12-18T20:46:00+00:00

It’s very possible to disapprove of something and still recognize other peoples’ rights to do it.

In this case, I disagree with that state’s age of consent law. Minors are not considered legally capable of making a lot of decisions adults can, and adults have no business having sex with them, regardless of gender or who pursued who. But when it comes to 18+ adults, I can say I think an 18 yr old dating a 50 yr old is a bad idea, without claiming they don’t have the right to do so.

-Shes-A-Carnival · 2024-12-18T21:15:28+00:00

liberty. i don't care who some 16 yo fucks if its legal

Major-Platypus2092 · 2024-12-18T20:05:27+00:00

I mean, most people in general are subject to their parents' influence when it comes to their choice of partner. There might not be any legal framework for it, but lots and lots of people have close relationships with their families, care what they think, or even defer to their opinions on the people they bring home.

I would think most women want a choice in their circumstances. What do you mean by security? Blindly giving up your autonomy isn't security. Some parents might not have your best interests at heart, some might value different things than you. Some might put you in a dangerous situation if it was financially advantageous. That isn't security. It's a lack of choice. The thing about choice is there are often consequences. You pick who you marry, and it's a bummer if you chose wrong. You pick who to sleep with, and it's a bummer if you chose wrong. Both choices can have consequences ranging from annoying to lethal, so most of us try to speak up when we see someone making a poor choice to help them avoid horrifying consequences.

To me, people who date down to the legal limit is similar to people paying minimum wage—you'd go lower if you could. I'm pretty uninterested in continuing to debate weird, pedophilic arguments here. But if their relationship is technically "legal," then there's very little I could do about it except point out that someone who can't vote, drink, enter into legal agreements, or see an R-rated movie is still very much a child in my eyes. A tattoo parlor wouldn't even be comfortable touching her for two more years.

AngeAware · 2024-12-18T20:09:43+00:00

Clarification: what's the age of consent in your state OP?

ILikeBird · 2024-12-18T19:42:53+00:00

I’m confused on your post. Are you arguing women should be subject to arranged marriages or that the age of consent should be removed?

Makuta_Servaela · 2024-12-18T20:08:32+00:00

It's impossible to have security without liberty, and impossible to have liberty without security. Security requires the ability to opt out in case things go wrong, and liberty requires the ability to have educated consent. Neither person you listed is liberated or secure, and in both situations, an older experienced adult is grooming the young person, just in the second, she was manipulated to think it was her educated choice. She was even manipulated into thinking she had control. I'm nowhere near 50, but even I would absolutely never feel meaningfully "pursued" by a 16 year old. The 16 year old would just look like a silly kid to me, and I would easily be able to shut that shit down.

A 16 year old isn't a 6 year old, but she's not an adult either. The teenage years are when the long-term-consequences part of the brain is under development, and the mess of hormones can cause irrational thinking. She's not a helpless moron, but she is vulnerable.

S0yslut · 2024-12-18T19:53:12+00:00

How about don’t be a pedophile wtf

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mashedturnip · 2024-12-18T21:02:54+00:00

Liberty, since I have security due to liberty

HappyCat79 · 2024-12-18T21:34:40+00:00

It’s none of my business. 🤷🏻‍♀️. I would rather have freedom than not have freedom.

Perfect-Resist5478 · 2024-12-18T21:41:30+00:00

Do you want to live in a pitch black room where you can’t see anything ever, or do you want to live under direct sunlight 50,000w spotlights that never get turned off. For sake of this argument, in the dark room you can’t have any instrument that helps you see in the dark, and in the bright room you can’t have any instrument that can block out the light.

No one would want either of these things.

Being an adult (in regards to the woman who started schtupping her friend’s dad) does not absolve you from criticism of your actions. People are going to judge what they don’t like or understand. In her case, she got what she wanted. The dad could’ve not fucked his daughter’s friend; that’s on him. But she seems happy with her choices so who are we to tell her she’s wrong?

Icy_Ad_4544 · 2024-12-18T21:50:30+00:00

I’m sorry but the best thing about this whole entire argument is the fact that you think a woman’s PARENTS would be better at choosing a marriage partner and as if it would be any of the men in this sub!

I don’t think I have laughed that hard in a looong time. 😂

alotofironsinthefire · 2024-12-19T02:06:00+00:00

I'm confused about why people think an arranged marriage somehow grants security?

Lots of women all over the world are still sold off to arrange marriages and they are not granted any security within their own lives for it.

Also confused on what your grooming scenario has to do with it

Routine-Present-3676 · 2024-12-19T02:10:04+00:00

I am confused by how you are equating a 50-year-old man sleeping with a child with liberation here and security with an arranged marriage. I guess if I'm forced to use your definitions of liberty and security then I don't want either of those things.

PracticalControl2179 · 2024-12-19T08:06:41+00:00

Why are the only two options to be in an arranged marriage or to sleep with random 50 year old men? Why do you refuse to acknowledge that there is an enormous spectrum between “my parents are going to force me to marry this man” and “I am going to sleep with as many random men as possible”? The beauty is that you are free to choose within that spectrum what works for you. You’re also allowed to change your mind.

There are people who live in cultures where you don’t even look at another man until you’re ready to get married and your parents arrange a marriage for you.

There are people who wait until marriage to have sex but have the liberty to choose who they want.

There are people who aren’t waiting until marriage but choose to only have sex within the confines of a serious monogamous relationship.

There are people who have lots of casual sex within multiple partners.

There are people who live in between what I listed.

Having the freedom to decide what’s best for you is key.

ConstantCode8637 · 2024-12-18T20:07:17+00:00

Women can want and have both. Liberty and security aren't mutually exclusive. The situations you described are huge extremes at 2 far different ends of the spectrum.

The girl you mention who is fucking the older dude, is a perfect example of liberty, without security. Because although the age of consent is 16 in where she lives, it is evident that she may not have been guided properly by her parents/guardian.

Plus who knows, this girl may not even have liberty either. Usualy girls who engage in sexual behavior like that at young ages, a lot of times have been sexually assaulted during adolescence, by an older man. So she may think her fucking an older man is the thing yo do because it may be the only life she knows.

It's hard to explain but a lot of people find comfort in their abusers and seek to repeat what they went thru.

farnort · 2024-12-18T20:11:05+00:00

This post sucks

ThatBitchA · 2024-12-18T19:58:13+00:00

She sounds like she's been groomed by a male authority figure in her life.

That is neither liberty or security. That is being groomed by a pedophile.

bv0724 · 2024-12-18T19:53:53+00:00

I am not actually that against my family setting me up. My parents were arranged with veto powers and had a lifelong marriage.

But basically, I am required to get my family's approval in order to marry someone. I don't have a problem with it. I trust their wisdom and that they have my best interests at heart while also respecting me. I think you have to have a pretty healthy relationship with your parents to be okay with something like this though. Some parents can truly suck.

TheAvocadoSlayer · 2024-12-18T21:41:19+00:00

After learning how Lily Phillips parents are her managers and learning there are apps in other countries made so parents can pimp out their children I no longer believe parents know what’s best for their kids.

Downtown_Cat_1745 · 2024-12-18T23:39:45+00:00

So you’re using the example of someone who was groomed and raped as a teenager?

Women never had security.

Novadina · 2024-12-19T04:11:59+00:00

Some men were suggesting a pre-feminist ‘arranged marriage’ type of thing.

Okay, so that’s a no on security.

What does this even have to do with security?? Women and girls aren’t actually feeling very secure in areas their parents marry them off to someone they don’t love.

I don’t think it should be legal to choose a partner for someone else.

Let’s try liberation then. I talked to a woman via DM over on ARAD who’s been fucking her friend’s 50-something dad since she was 16 (she’s now 23). She lives in a state with an age of consent of 16. So all the liberation in the world. Additionally, she pursued him and he resisted her at first (her words).

Do you approve?

I think it should be legal for adults to have sex with consenting adults. Whether I “approve” or not isn’t really relevant to much, unless it’s a friend asking for advice or something.

Title	Women, do you want liberty or security?
Author	Livid_Lengthiness_69
Upvotes	0
Comments	198
Date	December 18, 2024 7:29 PM UTC (1 year ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1hh9jqb/women_do_you_want_liberty_or_security/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/women-do-you-want-liberty-or-security.1538903 https://theredarchive.com/post/1538903

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