Don't be THAT girl - 2

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Actually I recall there was a study done with a representative sample in the US in the late 90s that found it was no less than 30%.

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Leaving the scene is way too frequently not a choice. Generally, it is the man who is driving. Usually buses don't run at night. She may not have access to a phone to call a cab without his agreement or even know the address where she is. She may be in high heels and have inadequate outerwear for the weather.

Laughable, absolutely laughable. Unless someone is forced, they always have a choice. Sometimes the right/better choice isn't easy or convenient.

She may be in high heels and have inadequate outerwear for the weather.

Ask the girl in India if given the choice, what she would do if all she had to do to escape her situation was walk a few miles in horrible weather in high heels and inadequate outerwear. I'm at a loss for words.

I see my mistake, I'm trying to have a logical conversation with someone who doesn't understand the fundamental rules of logic.

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[–]IndieLady5 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Sincere question (and I mean this as a question, not a rhetorical point, as I'm interested in the MRA perspective)...

As a teenager, there was an instance in which my boyfriend continued to pressure me to have sex. He attempted to undress me, he pressed himself against me, he fondled me. I consistently told him no. After an hour of this behaviour, of pulling my clothes back down after he lifted them up, of saying "no" but him consistently asking me to have sex with him, I finally stopped resisting. I didn't consent, I just stopped saying no and stopped pushing his hands away. I did not participate in any way, I just stopped 'fighting back' for want of a better word. I recall he pushed my legs open with his knees. As he had sex with me I cried.

Now I think everyone could agree that this was a shit thing of him to do. It was wrong and he's a horrible person. When it becomes a contentious issue is whther this was rape or not. I think this word is very, very loaded.

But I'm curious, do you consider my situation 'rape'?

[–]lumbage5 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]IndieLady1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I was young, sixteen and sexually inexperienced. An hour is a long, long time when you're effectively trying to defend yourself.

The obvious thought was to really fight back. In truth, I was scared he was going to get angry with me. He had a temper and he had physically harmed me in th past. I didn't want to fight about it, I just wanted everything to be ok. The desire for children to placate, to aquiesce so that a situation doesn't escalate, that can be pretty powerful. You just want everything to be ok, to not be scorned or naughty or difficult. I don't think he would have punched me, but there's always that lingering fear.

If I had got up and walked away, I don't think he would have grabbed me and forced me back onto the bed and pinned me down and had sex with me. I think he would have simply done the same thing, kept trying to pull off my clothes, put his hands down my pants etc, it would have continued unless I threw him out of the house or gave in.

So in the end I thought 'I want this to be over' and put my needs to one side. But my act of defiance was to let him know that whilst I wasn't going to resist, I didn't want it either. So I didn't open my legs, I had my hands clutched in tight fists up around my chest and every muscle in my body was tense. And the funny thing is, the whole time it was going, I kept hoping he would look me in the eye and see my pain and acknowledge that I shouldn't be in pain, and stop. He didn't.

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Thanks Sandra, You write:

"What is under discussion is that "no" means "no"."

No it's not. What is under discussion is whether just because you regret a one night stand that means it wasn't consensual. You argued along the way that "pressure" applied for sex is rape. At that stage you said nothing about "no" meaning "no", which is in any case irrelevant. Either one may say "no" and then later decide to do it anyway without it being rape, or "no" may never be mentioned but pressure applied.

So your declaration of what is under discussion is changing the topic of a losing debate.

None of this is to dispute that if a woman were to say "no" a fellow should stop then and there. For one thing, men have to learn to stop colluding with women in their hypoagency. If men stop when a woman says "no" then women will have to learn to pronounce "yes". None of this is under dispute. I repeat, you are changing the subject because you are losing the argument. There's a name for that move in logic. I think it's called the fallacy of changing the subject.

Best Wishes, Unexpected

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Repeatedly asking is harassment and bullying, yes, but it is not coercion. Coercion is forcing somebody to do something. No matter how many times you ask a person to do something, you can't make them agree to it. They have to choose to themselves.

It doesn't matter how many times you ask someone to have sex with you, that does not make it rape. If you ask someone on the 1000th time, and she agrees, then she still chose to do it. Now let me clarify that there is a distinction, if you threaten her that you will do something bad to her if she does not have sex with you, then that is rape. But simply repeatedly asking constitutes nothing more than sexual harassment. It is NOT as severe as 'rape'. Please understand this. Not rape. Do you seriously believe that women are that weak, that simply asking them enough times forces them to do something?

If I asked you to give me all of your money, and you said no, so I asked you 10 more times, and on the 11th time you agreed, without me having to hold a knife to your throat or threaten you or anything like that. Simply asking you. Then you are an idiot for not ignoring me or possibly getting a restraining order for harassment, but it is not theft.

[–]Sandra_is_here_21 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–][deleted]1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

"Or other action" sounds pretty vague to me. I don't think that constitutes a legal definition of how you would consider 'duress', but I may point out that asking someone to do something 1000 times does not COMPEL them to do it. If they do it upon being asked 1000 times, again, they CHOSE to. I can't think of any reason why a woman would ever be in a situation where she cannot simply leave and cut off contact with the person or seek legal protection long before being asked 1000 times. Unless you somehow FORCE them, via blackmail, physical force, violent threats, or do it while they are physically restrained or asleep, or too intoxicated to understand what is happening and say no, it is not fucking compelling.

Let me again ask you, do you really think women are really that weak that they simply lose their will and do whatever you ask them if you ask them enough times?

STOP diluting the definition of rape to be an all-encompassing thing. Rape is supposed to be just the most heinous violent crime after murder. If you ask a woman many times to have sex with you and she eventually does, yes, it's sexual harassment, but do you seriously believe it is the most second heinous crime? That is fucking ridiculous.

[–]Sandra_is_here_21 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–][deleted]1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Pressuring someone to have sex does not 'cause' them to have sex with you. They choose that by themselves. It's creepy and even illegal, but it's not rape. But it seems I'm not going to get through to you because you seem to not understand that words by themselves cannot take away a person's free will. And yes I agree that it is not a man/woman thing but in your original comment you used a female pronoun for the victim and I was just responding to that.

I noticed you posted another comment. I can't help but wonder if you're talking about me here:

From this conversation, it seems clear to me that some men think it is only rape if she is physically forced.

I gave plenty of examples of rape that doesn't involve physical force.

Anything else to get her to “put out” is fair game.

I did not say that. I clearly said pressuring a woman is sexual harassment, just that it's not rape.

In their opinion, men may nag, badger, harass, beg, intimidate, lie or use any non-violent means to get their way and it is not rape if she gives in.

Nag, badger, beg - not rape. Harass could be rape, depending on the circumstance, but if that's just repeatedly nagging or begging, then no, it's not rape. There's already a term for that. It's called sexual harassment. Intimidating someone to have sex with you can be rape, and lying can be too though it depends on the circumstance and that could possibly be covered under other charges as well.

To them, “no” means she just hasn't come under enough pressure to give in, so keep after her.

Not fucking true. When did I ever say I personally employ this tactic to get sex? I clearly said it's harassment and wrong, but it isn't rape.

If she finally decides to just get it over with because it looks as if she really has little other choice to get him to leave her alone, they think they got consent. They have not. Any action brought to bear on someone to have sex against their will or better judgment is rape.

She would always have options. She can block his phone number, stop visiting him, delete him from facebook, if it's happening at work she can tell HR, if he's visiting her house she can call the police and get a restraining order. Under no circumstances would repeatedly asking for sex force a woman to engage in it. If she chooses to have sex to shut him up, then that is a (stupid) choice she made instead of the other options, so she willingly engaged in sex, so it is not fucking rape.

Let me just be clear for the last time: nagging someone to have sex is harassment, not rape. Rape is a much more severe charge.

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[+]electriophile -7 points-6 points-5 points 13 years ago* (24 children) | Copy Link

If I had to take a wild guess, I'd say that the same percentage of women either have made or don't object to false accusations as men that have committed rape. (I'm omitting for the sake of simplicity women who commit rape or men who might falsely accuse).

So if, say, .005% of the male population (just making up a number here, that's about 1 in 20,000) is made up of rapists, roughly .005% of the female population either already has or would be willing to make a false accusation. Large enough to be a problem, small enough for there to be no reason to live in constant paranoia or assume that everyone is a rapist/false accuser.

Edit: Dowvotes for saying that false accusers might be as common as rapists (which is to say, not common at all but still enough to be a problem)? Either /r/mensrights is full of people with zero reading comprehension who think I'm saying false accusations never happen, or it's full of feminists who are angry that I dared to say it happens at all.

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I'm not a feminist, I'm just using an arbitrary number to show my viewpoint. And no, there are not mountains of research regarding false accusations, only unfounded ones. It's virtually impossible to know how many false accusations are made. I simply posit that they're about as common as actual rapists: you would NEVER hear a feminist say that. They prefer to pretend it never happens.

Why are you saying that I lied? I clearly said that it was a made up number to explain my viewpoint, not actual statistics. If I say "blue people hate red people" in an attempt to explain racism, that doesn't mean I'm claiming that people are actually blue or red.

And I don't see the need to call me a bitch when I'm essentially agreeing with your opinion that it's a more common problem than feminists say it is. Fucker.

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If a poster were to say something like "If she can't walk, she can't consent: Don't be THAT guy" then I don't think many here would have a problem with it because it doesn't treat the majority of men like rapists, it just says that some guys are 'dinks.

A poster like that would be extremely patronizing. It's directed to all "guys," and it addresses them like criminals. "Don't rape" posters might be appropriate for certain segregated groups where rape is extremely common like the military or prisons. In civil society, we don't treat people like this. What is more, this is rape a very serious crime and completely inapposite to being THAT guy — that guy who double-dips, that guy who vomits at the wedding, that guy who clogs the toilet, the guy who brings a guitar to the party......that guy who physically forces a woman to have sexual intercourse? It's absurd (as is OP's poster).

[–]ObsidianOverlord 4 points5 points6 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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So you're against educational posters which teach men not to rape because 'not all men are rapists'? We had posters up in college advising us to use condoms so as not to contract STDs. Are you against those because 'not all college kids are having sex, and if they are a lot of them wear condoms anyway'? The idea of educational posters is to inform the uninformed. The idea is to dissuade people from raping because 'some men do rape', not because 'all men rape'. Do you think that these posters are some sort of coordinated attack on men, rather than an attempt to reduce incidents of rape? Also rape is very common in todays society, do you disagree? What do you think of the statistics which show that 1/6 American women have been seriously sexually assaulted or raped? Do you think they are false rape claims?

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[+]BoringCode 13 years ago* [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

You are totally correct, however I would see this as more of a parody showing how ridiculous the original is.

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I think this fits along the lines of fight fire with fire though. You can't go about it in a weak way and act as though you are going to win over the "Men rape and should stop!" crap.

I only see something working when both sides are seen as even on this topic.

Overall I hate all of the rape shit though, I don't believe in rape culture (not in America at least.) and I can't stand anyone acting like it's a type of person or a certain gender or anything like that, that is to blame.

It's certain people, certain situations, and all of them are no good in my mind. It's sick to me to think you would blame a group for the acts of certain disgusting people.

But this ad? I like it. It give back the same as we get, and that's useful in my mind. If it wasn't actually true, like if it was a lie from one side, then that would be different, but this is no more a lie than the other side of the coin.

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Begging? hahahahahha wow. You are deluded. Remember Hilary Clinton specifically said that mens lives in war are worth less than womans feelings. Remember the uproar against her when she said that? No? Neither do I. Think about that. Men are disposable, women are important. Woman dont fight in wars, they tell men to fight in wars. Go look up the white feather campaigns in the first world war. Women would hand them to men to shame them as cowards if they didnt fight and die in their millions on the battlefield for them. Men were shamed as cowards if they didnt put women and children first in some kind of disaster. The message is clear, mens lives are worth less than womens lives. We even recognise depression more and think its worse when its a women, even when the symptoms are exactly the same and its just a hypothetical in text with the gender of the subject changed!

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http://i.imgur.com/Is7aZ.jpg

Reupload due to Dropbox killing popular links.

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I would talk more about what it's like - and it would give a lot of insight to a lot of guys on this site as to how women think. I'm just so paranoid though that she would somehow find out. She would recognize all the real life stories about her if she stumbled on to them of course. And then I would get blasted by a lot of people saying, "how could you call your daughter a bitch?!?" I don't know, maybe because most the time she IS?

It's like being an MRA on a whole new level. I'm sure they're around, but I've never once heard an MRA talk about having a very attractive daughter in her 20s. There's older guys my age, but most MRAs seem to be young - teenagers or 20s. I also have a son in his 20s- so all of this MRA is very relevant for me still and by extension to my adult children. I'm not some old weird guy.

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[+]MaunaLoona 13 years ago* [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

I see. How's this:

Just because you want a baby doesn't mean you should cut it out of a pregnant woman. Don't be that woman.

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The first time I had sex when I was 14, and got pregnant by a 17 yr old. The state wanted to charge him with sagetory rape on a minor. I had to be interviewed and interogated several times pleading to police he didn't do anything. He DID get me pregnant at 14, it was in no manner forceful.. or rape. They never ended up charging him with anything, thank god! It just sucks to see men who are in my daughters fathers situation almost go down for nothing and my uncle has fully raped 10 members of my family and didn't go to prison at all before he died 3 months ago.

By the way, my daughter is now 5 and doing awesome. And my daughters father passed away in 2008

It sucls to see men get punished for crimes they never commited, and sometimes listen to what the female has to say and not look at the factss

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So if a salesman pressures you into buying an expensive TV because you didn't have the wherewithal to say no, did he commit a crime?

I also enjoy how simple and helpless you assume women to be. Following your line of reasoning, women are obviously unable to be left alone because they are are incapable of articulating their true refusal or consent in these situations, regardless of what they may appear to be doing or saying. They're like children, so susceptible to the devious adults around them that any consent they may appear to give is invalid because they were so overburdened by the coercion being played out. Perhaps they should be accompanied by a male relative at all times so that they don't have to be threatened with handling the various external pressures that act upon functioning adults in the world around us.

An adult is expected to be able to say no when they don't want something even if they're being pressured into doing it (ever see one of those "don't cave in to peer pressure" campaigns?). Expecting anything less of women is demeaning to their faculties and is a slippery slope toward some kind of repressive system where women aren't trusted to be alone because they are incapable of functioning in the real world.

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that's because people have built up this image in their heads that rape only happens in alleyways at night, to a white woman, in a conservative dress, by a black man. rape is simply sex without consent.

if you repeatedly pester someone for sex after they've already told you no that could itself be considered sexual harassment. that's an unwanted advance. if they, after that, suddenly turn around and enthusiastically agree to have sex with you and afterward don't feel violated, then yeah, that's not rape. however, how likely is that to happen? if they begrudgingly give in it's most likely because they see it as their only potential escape from your advances. and if they feel violated during or after that makes you a rapist. why take that risk? how is that remotely worth it? don't bully, pester, or coerce people into having sex with you. simple stuff.

[–]hackinthebochs5 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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its the human prerogative to read between the lines and understand what people really mean when they say something. sometimes people give consent without saying a word, and the same can go for not giving consent. if you try to grab someone and they push your hand away that means no. you're being willfully ignorant to pretend otherwise.

in an ideal world, there would always be a loud, "clear and concise" NO from the other party, but that doesn't always happen and sometimes NO comes in other forms that are usually no less obvious, but that people choose to ignore because they want to have sex and "who cares what the other party thinks, they didnt verbally say no so i'm in the clear technically"

basically, don't be a worm, don't coerce sex out of people, pay attention to body language, if you're somehow unable to read body language or tone of voice, have a clear conversation beforehand and explain that "hey, if you don't want to do this, i'm cool with that. if you don't want to, i don't want to." why should you do this? because you're a caring, empathetic human being, right?

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What are you talking about? Who are these mythological "feminists?" This is like how liberals discuss their notions of conservatives, and vice versa. Straw arguments that no one who is a real feminist would ever actually make. It's ludicrous.

That said, I (AND feminists) agree that equal treatment and protection under the law is a right that should be granted to all. And there are some systemic ways women have historically been disempowered, and rape and requirement of sexually satisfying the sex starved male is one of them - in the same way that there is the myth of the woman who has no desire for sex at all.

Are you calling the people who believe what you say they believe feminists because you've read feminist thinkers and writers who said these things, or have you known short sighted and mean so-called "feminists" who said these things to you in these ways, or is this just your impression of "their" views, based solely on opinion and your mythological notion of feminists and what they believe - as liberals/conservatives have beliefs about what the other group thinks often without subjecting these beliefs to scrutiny and a reality check as to whether any real life intelligent members of the other group really think that?

[–]theskepticalidealist2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Maybe its difficult for you to remember becuase its so accepted as normal. Here's a great example:
http://femination.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/mystregth2.jpg

Women arent considered responsible for their own decisions if they drink. The message is pretty clear. If a womans had a few and wants sex from you, you tell her no because otherwise it would be rape. Her mind is too pathetic and weak, she's just a woman after all and we cant expect them to make those kinds of decisions, we as men have to do that for her. Other are even more forward about it, Slut Walk promotes exactly what I said they promote and you only need to read their signs, websites and interviews to see that. And feminists also claim that all rapes are just as serious as each other, including statutory rape!

Are you calling the people who believe what you say they believe feminists because you've read feminist thinkers and writers who said these things

No, its supported in the legal system, promoted in the schools and universities and lobbying groups receive government money to continue to do so. You really should pay some attention to what MR are saying because apparently you're too numb to it all to notice. Think about it, In what universe could anyone get away with saying that womans lives arent worth as much as a mans feelings? Because thats exactly what Hilary Clinton said in public, except she was talking about how mens lives in war arent worth as much as womens feelings. We live in a world where a young boy of 4 can be accused of sexual harassment or young teen boys can go to jail for sexual harassment when the girls also participated and didnt consider themselves victims. Or, when a college row team's shirt saying "check out our cox" a reference to the coxswain, can be called an endorsement of rape and violence against women and them being suspended and told to apologise. Or in France and their new sexual harrasment policy actually can put you in jail for 2-3 years for as little as looking at a women in the wrong way etc etc These are not "mythical feminists", they are the only feminists that are visible and as such any "rational" ones are simply irrelevant or dont care enough to do anything about any of this

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lying about sexual assault to a crime.

what?

I think you meant that you should replace the '=' with 'is'.

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If rape was trivialized the same way false accusations are (and I'm not talking about somebody making a rape joke, a less than 100% conviction rate for every single allegation, or any of the other ludicrous rape culture myths feminists promote, I'm talking about admitted rapists being set free because society thinks it's not worth prosecuting) then I would have no problem having rape "weaponized." As it stands though, false accusers are not only free from prosecution, people are actively working to make sure it stays that way, such as "don't prosecute false accusers because it will deter real victims from coming forward," or "it will prevent them from possibly admitting they lied in the future."

The default position for rape allegations has become guilty until proven innocent, and given the complete lack of accountability with regards to false accusers, this issue definitely deserves all the attention we can give it.

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Interested to know: how drunk is drunk? Is it the same for everyone? How am I to judge drunk if there are no signs? Obviously, I wouldn't want to sleep with someone who is wasted, so how do I tell? There are times when it's obvious, those are dead give aways. But what about someone who holds their liquor well? What if my mental functioning is impaired because I've been drinking too? I certainly wouldn't want someone taking advantage of me if I were drunk either!

So tell me, how do I know? Do I just stop drinking altogether, and refuse to talk to any woman unless she is avowedly sober? Can I trust that? Or is it best just to stay away, because some people are crazy, and will do fucked up things to me? Do I walk around with that completely irrational fear, my whole life, because it does happen?

I don't want that kind of a life.

[–]theskepticalidealist 3 points4 points5 points 13 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]bobuhbeartoe-9 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]theskepticalidealist13 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

not to bring semantics into this, but I'm pretty sure you just described rape.

No shit Sherlock! Thats the point. Of course it would be rape and the man would be responsible, and here's the kicker, even if he was drunk.

thirdly, I love how scared you are of taking responsibility. last time I checked, I thought all adults were supposed to be responsible for their actions. god forbid you actually have to pay and care for the life your brought into this world

You seem confused. Im the one arguing for people taking responsibility and not saying that women are some kind of intellectually inferior creatures that we shouldnt hold to the same standards we hold men to.

I never mentioned nor was anywhere near mentioning treating women differently, calling them intellectually inferior or incapable of being responsible, that came out of left field in Misogyny Grounds.

Of course you did, you said having sex with a women if she is drunk is rape as if she isnt responsible for her actions just because she drank alcohol. Yet, you agree that a man is fully responsible for rape even if he is drunk.

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I think we have discovered why men sometimes think she just felt bad about giving consent and changed her mind later. From this conversation, it seems clear to me that some men think it is only rape if she is physically forced. Anything else to get her to “put out” is fair game. In their opinion, men may nag, badger, harass, beg, intimidate, lie or use any non-violent means to get their way and it is not rape if she gives in. To them, “no” means she just hasn't come under enough pressure to give in, so keep after her. If she finally decides to just get it over with because it looks as if she really has little other choice to get him to leave her alone, they think they got consent. They have not. Any action brought to bear on someone to have sex against their will or better judgment is rape.

If a person does not wish to have sex with you, do not use any means what so ever to cause them to do it. If you do, you are a rapist. Don't be that man.

[–]Crimson_D82 2 points3 points4 points 13 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points 13 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Downvote, because she's making up shit. I suspect that she is talking about me here since we have been arguing about the definition of rape, in which case:

From this conversation, it seems clear to me that some men think it is only rape if she is physically forced.

I gave plenty of examples of rape that doesn't involve physical force.

Anything else to get her to “put out” is fair game.

I did not say that. I clearly said pressuring a woman is sexual harassment, just that it's not rape.

In their opinion, men may nag, badger, harass, beg, intimidate, lie or use any non-violent means to get their way and it is not rape if she gives in.

Nag, badger, beg - not rape. Harass could be rape, depending on the circumstance, but if that's just repeatedly nagging or begging, then no, it's not rape. There's already a term for that. It's called sexual harassment. Intimidating someone to have sex with you can be rape, and lying can be too though it depends on the circumstance and that could possibly be covered under other charges as well.

To them, “no” means she just hasn't come under enough pressure to give in, so keep after her.

Not fucking true. When did I ever say I personally employ this tactic to get sex? I clearly said it's harassment and wrong, but it isn't rape.

If she finally decides to just get it over with because it looks as if she really has little other choice to get him to leave her alone, they think they got consent. They have not. Any action brought to bear on someone to have sex against their will or better judgment is rape.

She would always have options. She can block his phone number, stop visiting him, delete him from facebook, if it's happening at work she can tell HR, if he's visiting her house she can call the police and get a restraining order. Under no circumstances would repeatedly asking for sex force a woman to engage in it. If she chooses to have sex to shut him up, then that is a (stupid) choice she made instead of the other options, so she willingly engaged in sex, so it is not fucking rape.

Let me just be clear for the last time: nagging someone to have sex is harassment, not rape. Rape is a much more severe charge.

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[–]viriconium_nights0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]cabin5 5 points6 points7 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Wow, that is deeply, deeply disturbing if you actually think that. But I do have to say thanks because this is a great insight into the deranged thoughts of the Western female's mindset- if this is typical, it certainly explains a lot.

It's going to be impossible for there to ever be any intelligent dialogue between the sexes if women in this culture simply do not understand the basic dynamics between men and women. I mean, sometimes I wonder if this culture of ours has just rendered you retarded, because for practical purposes, what you've said here indicates you might as well be.

As a man, if you're waiting for a woman to make the first move, you might as well go home and masturbate and give up on women, because you'll never have sex with a woman. The whole game is about using whatever you have at your disposal to try to convince a female you're good enough to have sex with- and then if she's on the fence, yes, sometimes it comes down to, "hey, c'mon! I really like you and I'll satisfy you."

That's called sales. If you want to call that 'force' then we need to apply your same whacked out world view to the rest of the world of sales- if a car salesman uses persuasion to sell me a car, then after I agree, then he just stole from me. That's how insane your logic is.

Of course none of this would even be this way if women were actually honest up front about their intentions to have sex or not and turning it all into some kind of mentally ill guessing game. It's easy for someone to sit back and pass judgement that never has to even try at something. In the world of sex, you don't have to do anything- you've never known what it's like to have to actually go out on a limb and risk your self esteem and possibly run into even more trouble just to have sex with another human being. And that's the way it is throughout any relationship for a man- it's all a one way street- he does all the work, and you do nothing, except maybe buy a Hallmark card, because you actually need someone else to write the words to even express your feelings. god, that's pathetic.

Assuming you're a straight heterosexual across the board, you've never had to experience the extreme stress and confusion of having to deal with women in an intimate way. I'm actually a tall, attractive man with an athletic build, outgoing and charming with a career, and it's still incredibly difficult to get laid to the point that after all that work, in the end it really wasn't even worth it.

OCCASIONALLY a female will walk to you and proposition you - but it's really rare- that is if she's sober- but yes, nowadays women binge drink and they will just walk up to you, grab your crotch and make out with you- if a man did that, it would be sexual assault. Even if you attempted to call the police they wouldn't believe you.

For men, the whole set up is a nightmare. It's impossible to tell what women are even thinking because they're so bizarre- I've had women talk dirty to me and then when I made a move, pushed me off. And then vice versa, women who were cold as hell and talked to me like a dog when we met, giving a clear signal there certainly wasn't going to be any sex, then later spread rumors about me being gay because I didn't try to fuck her. Sorry, but despite everything our culture tells us, Western women typically have all the social skills of a turd.

[–]unexpecteditem -3 points-2 points-1 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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Title	Don't be THAT girl - 2
Author	katzemann
Upvotes	1988
Comments	495
Date	December 29, 2012 8:38 PM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/15n01c/dont_be_that_girl_2/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/dont-be-that-girl-2.1005506 https://theredarchive.com/post/1005506

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