Old but good: Feminist lesbian lives 18 months as a man, realizes "Men don't have it better than women"

contradomis · 2013-12-11T12:22:07+00:00

My favorite part

Norah: I really like being a woman.

Interviewer: Did you like being a woman before Ned?

Norah: I did, but I like it more now, because I think it's a privilege.

I_fight_demons · 2013-12-11T10:46:44+00:00

She's just amazing. She challenges and engages gender issues and sexuality with such grace and openness. It's so simple that you can't deny her powerful message 'Men and women have problems. Those problems are different because men and women are different.' Who can accuse this? It's perfection! I have to spend time with her book and not just interact with the secondary news from it.

I really want to hear her talk about feminism. I feel her contribution to knocking out the dross and bitter gender politics could be so valuable. Feminism desperately needs people to focus on the legitimate and widespread issues women face and do it without bias and exaggeration. People like her are so desperately needed.

I do wish she had spent some time around issues and environments that weren't traditionally macho. I wonder if she encountered the stereotypical man so strongly because she deliberately pushed to be in those places. I listen to her and I still don't get a sense that she understands what I am as a man, or how beautiful that masculinity is. And she's dead right- one of my great needs is to feel understood and acknowledged.

bookishboy · 2013-12-11T05:40:45+00:00

I would LOVE to see a long-form video interview (unedited) with her and the AVFM folks, if both were agreeable to it. Maybe even if she were a feature guest with the Honey Badger ladies.

5th_Law_of_Robotics · 2013-12-11T06:19:07+00:00

There's just so much real world evidence that agrees with this. I think it's amazing that we are able to keep up with the zeitgeist we have created without alarm bells going off in our heads.

Edit: I love that ending. Bet that raised the blood pressure of many feminists.

Addicted2Skyrim · 2013-12-11T12:50:09+00:00

Wish there were programs in schools that addressed this stuff. Instead we were taught that girls were princesses, even as they pushed kids in the mud or verbally attacked someone. Still think it's funny how these days it's acceptable to let your girl walk around in a princess dress 4 days out of the week.

Raidicus · 2013-12-11T15:42:15+00:00

When feminists say they are fighting for equality, they should understand that means fighting for much shittier treatment across the board: blatant disrespect for our lives and well being, disinterest in our emotional struggles, higher expectations of physical ability, a rejection of our interests as parents, an extremely rigid and controlled set of expectations regarding courting behavior and sexual expression, an education system that rejects your strengths and preys on your weaknesses, and on top of that a social system that by and large is convinced you've "had it easy" up until that point

edit: to clarify, I realize being a man comes with some upsides too, but so does being a woman.

DerekAcorah · 2013-12-11T06:46:34+00:00

[permanently deleted]

fglrx · 2013-12-11T08:06:27+00:00

Articles from 2006 relating to Norah Vincent and her book:

A Self-Made Man - ABCNews

Double Agent - Guardian

They tend to get reposted a lot.

OvalNinja · 2013-12-11T07:32:35+00:00

I think she did an amazing social experiment!

snyper7 · 2013-12-11T09:33:13+00:00

Men... we know how to be friends.

ithinkimtim · 2013-12-11T09:34:00+00:00

[permanently deleted]

Cthulusbaby · 2013-12-11T10:54:36+00:00

I like her. She's honest and genuine and provides some insights into manhood that I hadn't thought of before. I might pick her book up and give it a read.

Watermelon_Salesman · 2013-12-11T15:29:41+00:00

Does she say in the video that she's a feminist?

chmbrs · 2013-12-11T17:29:41+00:00

TIL: feminist think that a man's existence is to bowl, go to peelers, and chop wood.

5th_Law_of_Robotics · 2013-12-11T19:50:56+00:00

Are there any examples of men who transition to being a woman who report preferring being a man? Because I've seen now several stories like this, none in reverse.

Hardcorex · 2013-12-11T11:39:33+00:00

Wow, at the end, when she said that being a woman was a privilege is what really got me, I kinda am surprised she said that, but it's just crazy to hear a woman who thinks that in my life experience so far at 20.

ShadyDude995 · 2013-12-11T12:15:19+00:00

Glad she was actually cool enough to admit it. Not everyone can face the music.

MuricanHawtSawce · 2013-12-11T09:28:50+00:00

this was freakin interesting, thank you for the video OP :D

2013-12-11T12:49:02+00:00

Wow, this was amazing, thank you!

danpilon · 2013-12-11T18:43:03+00:00

I'm very torn on this. I think such an experiment is extremely valuable and some of the insights that she has developed due to the experience are spot on. However, I can't get over some of the conclusions. For instance, she reinforces the stereotype that men's sexuality is entirely below the belt. I can accept it is a bit more physical than women's sexuality, but to simplify it in such a way is kind of insulting. Also, her observation that men withhold their emotions and feelings is pretty spot on, but she concludes that through years of this men are somehow now incapable of expressing themselves. I think this is plain disproved by her friend who opens up with her much more when he finds out she is a woman. He is perfectly capable, he is just forced to withhold such things in front of other men due to social conditioning.

I also thought it was hilarious when the narrator acted just shocked that there was no sense of romance at a strip club. Do women think that is why men go to strip clubs?

nihilist_nancy · 2013-12-11T17:09:51+00:00

I've said this before and I'll say it again - lesbians tend to be far more sane in their gender politics because they get it.

I personally cannot wait until FTMs make enough of a vocal population to strike back against institutionalized misandry because if shit isn't real now it certainly will be then.

Yes, they can play the "ex-woman" card but for most of them that's not satisfying.

Stephen1985 · 2013-12-11T10:40:45+00:00

Wow she said being a woman is a privilege.

Elecroam · 2013-12-11T15:34:29+00:00

This is all that needs to be said- Woman spends 18 months as a man, has to check into the hospital with depression.

Jayrate · 2013-12-11T18:11:33+00:00

It's interesting that after living the life of a man she had to be hospitalized for depression.

YouDislikeMyOpinion · 2013-12-11T18:13:47+00:00

Nora was surprised that many women had no interest in a soft, vulnerable man.

My prejudice was that the ideal man is a woman in a man's body. And I learned, no that's really not. There are a lot of women out there who really want a manly man.

11:30 mark.

SgtVeritas · 2013-12-11T14:58:20+00:00

[permanently deleted]

dontpet · 2013-12-11T08:46:22+00:00

I found the video compelling viewing. Great to see many dimensions and not just simple sound bites. I did wonder just what was missed, as it was still a woman exposing men's experience of the world.

perfectdesign · 2013-12-11T15:05:16+00:00

I forgot about this. My wife was really into the feminist propaganda for a while and got the book, to discover that it didn't really fall in line with anything they were saying. I read it too, and actually found it to be quite interesting.

I found it most interesting to see how a woman views normal interactions between men from the inside, rather than the outside. It's been about 5 years since I read it, so I don't have specific examples.. but to anyone that enjoyed the movie, I would recommend reading the book. It was pretty interesting.

2013-12-11T12:51:56+00:00

This should be part of MRM 101 as its one of the clear video's showing men's issues and that in a way that's hard to dismiss as a woman saw them and that even had medical issues (depression) after she was done with the experiment.

Saying that I wish they repeat this but this time with a straight woman tho, and that have her take part in gay men groups. As I wonder what sort of things a straight woman would pick up/notice due to her sexuality compared to a lesbian.

VoodooIdol · 2013-12-11T18:18:59+00:00

Every time I hear her speak about this or read parts of the book I'm brought to tears by how accurate she is. It makes me both elated that someone who is not a man is finally taking notice of these issues and talking about them publicly and sad that we men are socialized by our mothers, fathers, relatives, and the institutions that we are raised in to shut our feelings down like this.

MoFuckinBananas · 2013-12-11T14:02:18+00:00

Albanian women have been doing this for a long time, look up "Sworn Virgins"

lol but seriously very interesting piece, cool lady and awesome that it aired.

Saerain · 2013-12-11T14:26:37+00:00

The user "faultroy" is a real ticket in those comments.

SoulSonick · 2013-12-11T18:06:00+00:00

Great post OP. So question; when this first came out what was the general reaction by people ? Did women sympathize with the results or was it just seen as horseshit "guy stuff" that held no weight ?

da_chicken · 2013-12-11T18:40:13+00:00

I've read her book. She gets a lot of things pretty right, but I'm not so sure she does as good a job as I'd like explaining things. Maybe because so much of what she talks about is as obvious as the sky is blue to me, so sometimes she rambles on about really basic things.

She also has very different experiences than I've had. She experiences sex by going to a strip club, for example, but I myself don't ever go to those and don't enjoy them at all. I think she was mostly shocked by the difference men see between sex and intimacy.

She experiences work camaraderie by going to a door to door hard sales company, and that's not anything I'd do. The people she meets there are just asshole type A guys. I would not have liked Ned the salesman. The bowling team and the monastery were the best chapters, IMO.

MrKocha · 2013-12-11T13:54:53+00:00

I hadn't seen this before and I really appreciate her perspective.

It's interesting how society listens to women so much more about men's issues.

Thank you to all women who have stepped forward and dared to speak on our behalf, or consider walking a mile in our shoes.

pwnedkiller · 2013-12-11T21:04:52+00:00

I don't see how just changing her physical appearance by make up and somewhat her life style justifies her knowing and living the lives men live. This to me just seems silly and proves nothing.

KillJoy575 · 2013-12-11T18:02:22+00:00

Wow.

BrilliantDynamitesNe · 2013-12-11T21:36:40+00:00

Wow. I've never seen this before.

2013-12-11T23:10:32+00:00

It's hilarious how often feminists claim to know trans individuals, and that those trans individuals totally agree with them about gender rolls... none of them really know trans individuals.

icanhazchocmilk · 2013-12-12T06:10:06+00:00

Not surprised. This generation of women are honestly out of their fucking mind with entitlement. I have no problem fucking these women but I cannot tolerate dating them

Spooge_Tits · 2013-12-12T07:08:43+00:00

The narrator sucks. I hate this Chris Hansen style over-pronounced narration, it sounds forced and like I am watching a news story.

7Vega · 2013-12-11T20:58:59+00:00

All feminist women should have to live 18 months as a man.

Stetty92 · 2013-12-11T17:34:42+00:00

I recently realized this while watching Mad Men. Women had it pretty nice; I would be happy not having to worry about bringing in an income and having someone else provide for me. The main role for women was to keep the home clean and the children taken care of. The men had to work hard, long hours to provide. I understand that some women began to feel oppressed: making less and having less rights. But today men have far less rights when it comes to marriage and children. I think we needed the feminist movement but no longer need it, at least we do no need what it has become. I think, today, that the word feminist alone denotes inequality.

Your_Bacon_Counselor · 2013-12-11T19:30:26+00:00

It would be really interesting to spend the day with her. I bet as time has gone on she has connected many more dots and gained some different insights.

Viking83 · 2013-12-11T16:37:56+00:00

You wrote 'feminist' twice in your headline.

jokoon · 2013-12-11T20:46:34+00:00

sad thing is that she's going to be discredited because she's a lesbian

apathos_destroys · 2013-12-11T14:12:03+00:00

[permanently deleted]

2013-12-11T09:11:00+00:00

oh shit I've read that as kid I don't remember most of it but was cool, i thought it was fiction guess its not.

vendedor_de_tacos · 2013-12-11T21:58:27+00:00

It's interesting how she doesn't discuss her privilege of whiteness at all. Oppression isn't equal. This is not to say that men do not face oppression like women and that the systems of patriarchy are solely meant for the subjection of women, but that difference is much more nuanced than a simple discussion of male/female and oppressed/dominant binaries.

nihilist_nancy · 2013-12-11T12:45:59+00:00

[permanently deleted]

Title	Old but good: Feminist lesbian lives 18 months as a man, realizes "Men don't have it better than women"
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	1098
Comments	301
Date	December 11, 2013 4:31 AM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1slzpe/old_but_good_feminist_lesbian_lives_18_months_as/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/old-but-good-feminist-lesbian-lives-18-months-as-a.1156461 https://theredarchive.com/post/1156461

Comments