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My personal experience with depression is that it's a disease of circular thinking. You get trapped in the round room, so to speak. I'd think something like CBT, which points out the flaws in one's logic, might be helpful. I've recently heard good things about treatment with 'shrooms, ketamine, LSD and similar drugs which (I'd guess) tend to blast out the walls of the room, so to speak! I can see how that would be useful as well. (Looking back, I wonder if my own teenaged experimentation with mescaline had an impact. I've certainly never been depressed since!)

It's been said that depression is just anger without enthusiasm. I think it's a symptom of people who feel 'stuck' in untenable situations. It seems to me that the solution should be to change one's circumstances whenever possible. (Hence my motto: "Do SOMETHING even if it's wrong!") Of course, sometimes that's NOT possible -- for instance, say you're a minor child in a very dysfunctional family. You may not be able to escape! Or you're a caregiver for a handicapped child or elderly parent ... you can't simply shrug off your responsibilities. Those are tougher cases in which a 'chemical crutch' is perhaps justified.

But the way depression is currently regarded -- as a 'disease' that you come down with randomly, like catching the common cold -- is hogwash, AFAIC. It's a marketing ploy designed to get people into "treatment" (taking antidepressants) by removing the stigma that goes with mental illness or having wrecked your life via bad decisions.

[–] NarniaFox 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]NarniaFox 7 points8 points9 points 5 years ago* (144 children) | Copy Link

To whoever who wrote a comment that being a pro life isn't a red flag and deleted the comment later/got deleted.

It is a huge red flag for me. Whatever their reasons are, they want to ban/restrict the access to abortion and that means they put a life of a fetus higher than a woman's life. Not acceptable moral set for me at all. I don't want to deal with this kind of people.

And a bit of off-topic. My husband once was talking about "we can save the baby or the mother" situation, he said he'd always chose the mother. Because he loves me. If I'm alive, we can try for another baby or adopt one and he doesn't need a child without me. I doubt a prolifer would share this opinion and I wouldn't like to live with a person who would chose a baby in this situation. But I admit it is a morally hard choice and there isn't a right one.

Edit: and, well, you can see why being a pro-lifer is a red flag for me.

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I am of the opinion that a woman would willingly follow and be led by a man she respects. As has been shown here and elsewhere there are few men deserving that respect and this is the principle issue.

Although perhaps this is projection in the sense that I as a man would willingly follow and be led by a man I respect, an "alpha", then assume women would do the same to people they respect and trust.

Most male relationships whether a sports team, gang or military unit have an inherent hierarchichal nature to them

personally I am of the belief that egalitarianism or a partner can at best lead to a strong friendship there needs to be an implicit power differential to create sexual attraction and the subsequent respect that comes from that.

Ie the whole weak men are afraid of strong women argument which is true, as they have neither the inclination or ability to lead and the strong women are rightfully disgusted by the "men," that they see around them.

[–]NarniaFox 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

I think it's a personal trait that isn't necessarily hard-wired. In some sense it's about individualism vs collectivism and it might as well be a result of upbringing or exposure to different communities.

My mother gave me as much freedom as it was physically safe and always explained the reasons for any restrictions. As a result I value cooperation and ability to talk and seek compromises and don't tolerate people exercising their dominance over me. I know a few people with similar upbringing who avoid having a strict hierarchy in close personal relationships or working in places full of it.

For me a person who is more qualified in something than I am and who I trust and respect is a person who I'd like to learn from or ask for advice when I need it. Not that I'm going to follow them out of respect or be critical towards their decisions.

I'm really into egalitarianism. I value emotional connection, companionship and cooperation, so it's important for me that my partner can experience their vulnerability and share their emotions with me without worrying about "holding the frame". We're equal, so we aren't afraid of being vulnerable and I do think that these moments make us closer to each other. And we should be able to discuss our plans and goals, so they'd satisfy both of us and we'd work on them together.

Neither of these things interfere with sexual attraction and I'd say that they in fact do help to keep it. Emotional intimacy leads to sexual and it helps to avoid resentment or grudge towards your partner and to trust enough to experiment. And cooperation is just helpful in terms of saving enough time and energy for fun times.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Thanks for your thoughts.

I agree with the principle that in a healthy relationship emotional intimacy is very important.

However it seems like either TRP is a self selected populace or larping, or the majority of people subscribe to some element of traditional gender roles ie the man has to be stoic and in control all the time otherwise the woman gets disgusted and looks for a "real man" who is able to handle the responsibilities and struggles of life.

From an evopsych perspective TRP theory makes sense as you wouldnt want to tie yourself down to a loser, hypergamy makes perfect sense as it is the innate survival drive to attach yourself to a winner to maximise both your and your offsprings chance of survival.

Another factor this is often overlooked is the economic influence on relationships ie that people who grow up in poverty have that fear and drive to escape destitution hence a possible correlation between parental income and financial security during childhood and levels of hypergamy.

This could partially explain the difference in divorce rate for college educated vs those without a HS diploma.

Also the days of the 50s where people in theory held secure employment (personally I believe it is a myth and certainly the 50s werent good for minorities) have been replaced by an insecure and casual labor market with higher rates of turnover.

As such the proffesional matches the personal with similar attitutes towards relationships. Ie men are as expendable and fungible as a job and should be used for pay and benefits.

Online dating has amplified these trends with a constant and limitless supply of potential suitors.

It will be fascinating to see the influence on Gen Z whose first foray into relationships will have been a post tinder and instagram world and what the effect will be.

Perhaps the obsession with social media and online dating and its effect on male female dynamics is overstated and mainly a manosphere circle jerk but I happen to agree with the idea.

[–]NarniaFox 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I think that TRP filters successfully for women who can be easily affected by it/moldable enough to do so and who have inclinations towards traditional gender roles. Not that there is a lack of women who are into traditionalism.

Evopsych is a hard topic. There are little to no ways to check their theories, their methodology is often questionable and there are contradictory studies to some of their findings as well as meta studies showing that evopsych findings are not conclusive and have a skewed methodology.

I believe that we live is transitioning times and a lot of problems and confusion come from people having different sets of expectations and dating patterns. Most things that used to be straight-forward now have to be discussed thoroughly and can't just be assumed. Like whether you have exclusive relationships, whether you both want LTRs, kids, how you will split financial responsibility etc. And the problem isn't only in communicating all of it, but also figuring out your own preferences, expectations and their roots in order to be able either look for what you really want or address them if they're harmful.

I'm not sure about the US, but in Russia I can see that a lot of men have problems and get angry or bitter, because they aren't used to women being less interested in dating. Women always were the ones interested in relationships, marriage and kids and they had to "allure" men into having all of it and cater to his needs in order to him to stay there. Men get used to it, so now when women are losing their interest in lopsided relationships, they have hard times coming in terms with it.

From the other hand, I do admit that online dating has changed dating patterns. I also think it's made the situation worse in terms of each other's expendability and it is kind of depressing. More men and women tend to use each other or maybe it always was like that but wasn't that easy to see. If back then people tend to keep relationships long after the point where it was necessarily to break up, now some couples get splitted over issues that could have been easily solved if they both had been interested in doing so. More people think that relationships should cater them, but aren't ready to cater to their partner and actually put efforts into it.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Most important with TRP is its specific context when it started it was by middle class college educated responding to American women, nowadays it is far more diverse with a couple of Russian or at least Russian descent posters as well.

I attribute traditionalism to another form of FDS essentially be nice to him and he will do anything for you.

I believe that Russia has or at least used to have the worlds highest divorce rate, so issues discussed in an American context would have far more pertinence in Russia.

What I find amusing is that there seems to be a fetish for Eastern European and in particular for Ukranian women by some people who see them as being better marital prospects when I would associate such women, at least the ones open to dating foreigners, as being far more merciless and calculating than Western women.

For one thing all the issues like economic inequality, financial insecurity, machismo traits in men, poverty are far greater in these countries.

Whilst it may be different now for Gen Z, millenials would have grown up in the post communist depression that was far worse than the 1930s depression in America, with some countries like Moldova apparently poorer today than under communism.

but aren't ready to cater to their partner and actually put efforts into it. - Agree but that is because in the past it was seen as a duty and an obligation. Nowadays it is about ridiculous things like fun and love .

People have enough issues being miserable and stressed out at work and the last thing you want is to deal with someone when you get home.

For women in particular thanks to things like Tinder which act like a free prostituition service you can order up men like Pizza. Dont like that one you can get rid of him and have another one round in 5 minutes.

Obviously in reality it is not that easy and there are certainly hightened risks for women in being intimate with strangers but relationships are hard work, why not just choose hedonism and easy sex instead.

Many women are avoiding the whole thing and going WGTOW maybe this is what is happening in Russia as well.

When you say women in Russia have less interest in relationships I would attribute this to greater prosperity and less of a need to find a provider.

Also do you have the same trends such that more women go to university ie a 60/40 ratio and as such young unmarried women are doing better in their careers than the men, that would certainly explain a large part of the trends.

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I think any abortion done after 4 months for any reason other than reproductive coercion or rape is a crime.

So I'll preface this by saying that I am pro-choice for the entire duration of the pregnancy. Despite that, I have a lot of sympathy for the pro-life position and I understand it, having been pro-life myself for many years. I ask the following not to troll or pick a fight but because yours is an opinion I encounter a lot and I have never understood it, even when I was pro-life.

I'm really curious why you make an exception for reproductive coercion or rape victims. If you believe abortion (or in your case, abortion after 4 months) is murder, why does it make it okay for a woman to murder her child because she was raped? Surely the innocent child shouldn't have to pay for the sins of its father?

And it's even more confusing because you're not pro-life across the board, you think abortion is okay if it happens in the first 4 months. So why make an exception for rape victims? They had a four-month window and didn't abort. Why should a special exception be made for them to abort later? If anything I would think a rape victim would have fewer qualms about aborting ASAP.

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It's for the best that people with strong, conflicting views on abortion don't put themselves in situations where they could make a baby. I would never sleep with someone who was not pro-choice.

I'm 8 months pregnant, so that has impacted my perspective a bit. The first trimester you are such a wreck because you are so worried about losing the pregnancy (~1/5 pregnancies end in miscarriage). I'm very grateful I made it through. But it got me thinking - it takes two to make a pregnancy (man and woman), and then it takes two for that baby to come to term (woman and baby). Sometimes the woman wants the baby to be born, but the baby isn't up for it. Sometimes the baby is set for being born but the woman isn't up for it. Now obviously it's very different - the baby is not making a conscious choice to be non-viable, I know that. But still, I feel like this "double-opt-in" system is good for ensuring that healthy babies are born to mothers who are all in on caring and providing for that child.

[–]geyges🐇 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]relish5kWorking Tradwife (woman) 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

To me it's about the outcome. The world is better off when wanted babies are born to mothers who are ready and excited to care for them. All of the talk about where life begins, yada yada, interesting from a philosophical perspective but meaningless from an outcomes perspective.

It's not about assigning blame and responsibility (you should have done this that and this and now you need to do x,Y,Z) but about thinking what's the best outcome for the woman and the family she wants to have. Most women who have abortions go on to have children later in life when they're ready, that's good for women and their children who are born into that environment. Those women who never go on to have children because they don't want to be mothers - I would say the world is better off by letting them make that decision.

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Anyway pro-choice is a red-flag in itself, it shows complete disregard for human life. I struggle with this because I don't know if I'm anti-murder or not; but what I do know is that if potential life inside a woman doesn't matter - then nothing about humanity does either.

It shows regard for bodily autonomy. If a person can't be forced to donate blood or a kidney to an individual whose injury they caused, why should a woman be forced to donate oxygen and nutrients from her placenta to the individual who attached itself to her? One can't even take organs from a corpse without consent in many places, let alone from living people.

Viable fetuses should be removed alive, but early abortions done with medicine are not murder because the fetus is merely prevented from tapping into another person's organs without consent.

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There are accidental pregnancies, whether you want to admit it or not. Unfortunately, we don't have 100% accurate contraception methods yet and whatever you use, you still have a slight chance of getting pregnant. Yes, abstinence exists, but not that men are willing to keep it.

If you're okay with rape and medical reasons, you aren't a total pro-lifer. But I think that any restrictions lead to worsening life of rape victims, as in deeply religious countries we can see that in many cases they can't prove that it was rape., even when a victim is 12-13-14 years old. And it puts pregnant women under greater risks, when doctors don't do abortion as long as it's possible under the risk of being accused in murdering a fetus that could have survived and might have not killed a woman.

I don't consider a fetus a person. And what's hilarious is that I've met very few pro-lifers who are als against wars or just letting people die from curable diseases due to them not having money or medical insurance. It seems they worry only about the unborn.

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Similarly it’s a giant red flag for me when someone doesn’t support my right to kill my children (or anyone else) who presents an inconvenient duty of care on me.

It’s just so selfish of them to want to control my body like that.

I assert my right to total control over my body and whatever it produces. Thus, I should totally have the right to have anyone who relies on (and takes) the productivity of my body without my explicit permission killed, dismembered, and their body parts sold for scientific research - this includes my wife and children (if I divorce them), government officials, tax collectors, recipients of government social safety net aid, recipients of foreign aid, and anyone else who uses the coercive power of the government to extract productivity from me that was created by my body.

Right-on Sister!

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The southern states who whose industries were most heavily dependent on slave labor complained that they weren’t getting “fair” representation in Congress because the count didn’t include their slave populations (who weren’t even considered citizens let alone able to vote) So they were granted the right to count their slaves as 3/5 of a person for purposes of calculating representation. This was a foreshadowing of how the southern planter class would control US politics for the next 75 years (until cotton and sugar produced in Europe and other parts of the world became cheaper and bette quality and the federal government was able to the tell southern states to go suck it). Most subsequent amendments up to and after the civil war were full of concessions to keep the southern ruling class happy (even the new deal was chock full of segregationism in its policies)

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No human being is ever fully developed until the point of depth. While you are alive as an Individual being you are in a constant state of development, picking any one at which to assign being is completely arbitrary and without scientific basis.

We don’t even know what consciousness is, and most certainly can’t define its beginning or end (scientifically), and responsiveness to surroundings is an arbitrary measure. Some respond more and differently than do others. What we do know is when individual physical life begins, and we’re getting reasonably good (but not perfect) at determining exactly when it ends. We call these two points conception and death. Everything else is just an developmental point along the spectrum of a human life - scientifically.

The only non-arbitrary way in which we can define the beginning of human life with any scientific support is at conception. That’s just the science of it.

[–]Meritamen9 3 points4 points5 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

The only non-arbitrary way in which we can define the beginning of human life with any scientific support is at conception. That’s just the science of it.

We can scientifically define when a human life begins but whether you assign any significance to that is not based in science. It seems like you have a religious value of human life and are trying to justify it secularly.

Obviously a fetus is belongs to the human species and is human in the same way a fish egg is a fish but that doesn't override bodily autonomy to me. Almost no one believes one should be forced donate their organs and blood because we understand body autonomy intuitively. Like I told you before if there is one thing you have in this life, it is your body.

Some people here are getting too caught up on personhood which is not a scientific classification (though that certainly doesn't mean it is a meaningless term). However they are right in the sense that the fetus has no subjective experience of pain until later in the pregnancy. Nociception is not pain, plants and jellyfish have nociception but no conscious experience of pain. There is strong evidence for this in medical science and it is much stronger than the evidence I have seen you give for peoples' subjective experience of life.

[–]SeemedGoodRed Pill Man 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

We can scientifically define when a human life begins but whether you assign any significance to that is not based in science.

True. Whether or not anyone assigns any significance to any human life at any stage in its development is not based in science. It is very much a moral issue. I have yet to hear a logically consistent argument as to why the assignation of significance to a human life should be arbitrary. Please present one if you can. I have seen many arguments as to why certain arbitrarily chosen human lives are less significant than others. They have typically been used historically to justify the mass killing, enslavement, or oppression of large groups of people who were economically or politically inconvenient.

Obviously a fetus is belongs to the human species and is human in the same way a fish egg is a fish

Nope, a fish egg (not a fish zygote) is not a live individual fish in a state of development and maturation, it only contains half of the requisite genetic material for that. Thus, fish egg will never become a fish. A fish zygote, however, is a live genetically individual fish in an early state of development and maturation, just as a human zygote is a live genetically individual human being in an early state of development and maturation.

Almost no one believes one should be forced donate their organs and blood because we understand body autonomy intuitively.

The human being developing inside of a pregnant mother will not take any of her organs with it when it is born. It also does not deprive the mother of the use of any of her organs as it develops. A mother who has just given birth has all of the organs (and body parts) that she had prior to becoming pregnant. The process of gestation does not require that she donate any part of her body to the child that is developing within her. Unlike with organ donation, she maintains full use and ownership of them all. Also, babies do not share their mother’s blood (that’s what the placenta is for). Actually they often have different blood types altogether.

Like I told you before if there is one thing you have in this life, it is your body.

Yes, and unlike organ donation, pregnancy does not require a woman to surrender any part of her body to another human being. It does require that she use her body to nurture another human being. But fathers are also required to do the same (see child support).

However they are right in the sense that the fetus has no subjective experience of pain until later in the pregnancy.

We actually do not know this, the science is theoreticall and abortion technicians will tell you that fetuses definitely react as though they feel pain during abortions. It’s why they take the extra step of killing them before dismembering them instead of just dismembering them immediately.

It’s also irrelevant. That fact that I can prevent someone from feeling pain by anesthesia, or maybe even that he (or more often she) simply does not have functional pain receptors does not confer on me the right to kill him (or more often her) simply because he (or more often she) imposes an inconvenient duty of care on me.

[–]Meritamen9 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I have yet to hear a logically consistent argument as to why the assignation of significance to a human life should be arbitrary

We already assign significance to human life when it comes to unplugging people in vegetative states or deciding who gets lifesaving organ donations.

Saying all human life is of equal value regardless of circumstance is a religious statement. There are atheists who use that argument against abortion and suicide/euthanasia but they co opt religious philosophy for it. Why is all human life equally valuable regardless of whether one is conscious or needs to use another's organs and body directly for it's own survival?

Nope, a fish egg (not a fish zygote) is not a live individual fish in a state of development and maturation

Most fish species start their development as eggs. If you spot fish eggs, most people would say they saw some fish eggs and not fish. Even though fish eggs are fish in their earliest stage of development.

The human being developing inside of a pregnant mother will not take any of her organs with it when it is born. It also does not deprive the mother of the use of any of her organs as it develops.

This seems to be splitting hairs. The fetus is still inside the woman's body and using her organs for it's own survival. If the fetus doesn't depend on a woman's blood supply then how do nutrients and toxins get there? Nothing is like pregnancy other than pregnancy itself but donating any part of your body for another's health is the closest you can get.

But fathers are also required to do the same (see child support).

I don't believe in child support because it denies men the product of their work. Though the most egregious violation of male bodily autonomy is not child support but drafting. To be able to draft a man basically says they don't own their body in the same way forcing a woman to be pregnant does.

We actually do not know this, the science is theoreticall and abortion technicians will tell you that fetuses definitely react as though they feel pain during abortions.

Animals like jellyfish will react as if they feel pain but don't have the central nervous system to have an experience of pain. You can glean whether something has the neural wiring to have a conscious experience of pain.

That fact that I can prevent someone from feeling pain by anesthesia

Someone under anesthesia has already gained consciousness and a will to continue experiencing life. You are right in the sense fetal pain perception/consciousness is not nearly as relevant as whether or not someone's body is their own.

[–]NarniaFox 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]SeemedGoodRed Pill Man 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

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[–] NarniaFox 1 point 2 points 3 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

You're aging, but you aren't developing all your life, otherwise we wouldn't have different stages like childhood, teen years, maturity.

IVF doesn't require, but no one is going to fertilize one egg in a time, so they fertilize a bunch of them, chose the healthiest, the ones with malformation are got rid off and the others are get frozen. They usually try to "plant" 2-3 eggs and sometimes they have to do a reduction if more than one "got roots". Not sure about the actual terms in English, sorry.

What about rape?

Medical reasons also include fetuses with malformations. I think it's better to abort a fetus who has zero chances to make it to a functioning adult than pop it out and make it suffer all the years it'll be able to last. It depends on the severity, of course, but the most important factor is whether they'll be able to live on their own or not.

[–]NarniaFox 2 points3 points4 points 5 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link

[–]SeemedGoodRed Pill Man 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

A fetus isn't a person, so I have no problems with abortions.

A fetus is not legally a person, but legal personhood is simply a legal fiction. At one point my slave ancestors were not considered persons either, nor were the Jews in Nazi Germany. And that legal fiction is always historically used to dehumanize people for the purpose of justifying their genocide.

A fetus is still just as much of an individual human being as you are.

you also should mourn any periods if you have an active sex life, you never know whether it was an early miscarriage or not.

Actually women do often (maybe usually) know. My wife and I have had two early miscarriages and we mourned both of our lost children.

Source: My wife is a midwife’s assistant (studying to be a midwife), a doula, and a childbirth educator. She’s had extensive medical education focusing on obstetrics, aided hundreds of women through pregnancy, and attended over 100 live births, in addition to having had several children of her own and almost double digit pregnancies. She has also done volunteer work with abortion victims (the mothers).

[–]SmurfESmurfersonStacy’s Post-Wall Mom 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]SeemedGoodRed Pill Man 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]SeemedGoodRed Pill Man 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

My take is that if they've never had consciousness, they aren't a person yet.

How do you know when consciousness begins? We have not even identified what consciousness actually is. And even if we had you would still be defining the state of being an individual human being by a particular state of development of an individual human being - which isn’t logically sound (because it’s circular).

Maybe if we ever have a way to raise a fetus outside of another person's body, we'll change the view on it, although I really doubt it.

So, we (all of us) ought to have the right to kill (or just abandon) any other human being that presents an inconvenient duty of care on our bodies?

The miscarriages of planned pregnancies are mourned. But unplanned happen as well and a lot of women don't even know about them.

The children we lost to miscarriage were unplanned and we mourned them still. Actually, none of our children were planned and we love them all anyway. That’s just being a good parent. Killing your unplanned children isn’t - which segues into...

I wonder what the hell you wife do with "abort victims"?

She has counseled them. Killing one’s own children often causes unexpected sadness, grief, and regret in women, far more often than abortion proponents want you to know (it’s a big business).

[–]NarniaFox 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

We know that for consciousness one needs a functioning brain. Babies with brain damage often don't have consciousness and have to "live" in a vegetative state. A fetus on the early stages just don't have necessary body parts for being aware of themselves and their surroundings. It can become a human, but it isnt a human yet. An egg isn't a chicken.

People should have this choice. If you are the reason of a car accident and the victim needs a kidney, no one would for everyone to donate yours.

Most women don't know about their early miscarriages, your wife is an exception. Once again, a fetus isn't a child yet.

They need a therapy, not a doula who is presumably a prolifer. Abortion isn't an easy choice and it surely can have a toll on one's mental state. I've read enough stories of women bring totally fine after it though. I think it depends on the reasons and person's belief system.

[–]SeemedGoodRed Pill Man 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago* (10 children) | Copy Link

We know that for consciousness one needs a functioning brain.

Actually we don’t know that because we don’t really even know of what consciousness consists.

A fetus on the early stages just don't have necessary body parts for being aware of themselves and their surroundings.

Any sonogram technician will tell you that fetuses move to avoid the sonogram waves from a very early stage of development, suggesting awareness of self and environmental. Our first child fled the sonogram waves before he even had a recognizable human form (very early in the pregnancy). When we learned that he was fleeing the sonogram we never did another one.

It can become a human, but it isnt a human yet.

Again you are defining a human being by a developmental state of a human being. That’s circular and logically inconsistent.

An egg isn't a chicken.

An egg isn’t an individual chicken because it is a zygote.

Neither is an egg (nor a sperm) an individual human because it is also a zygote. When the two meet and combine and form a cell with a unique genetic coding, however, you now have an individual human being in a specific (early) state of development. From there to you now is just a matter of cell division and specialization (which is a lifelong process BTW). You are now and have always been nothing more than a clump of cells.

If you are the reason of a car accident and the victim needs a kidney, no one would for everyone to donate yours.

The mother of a child is never forced to surrender any part of her body to her child. She maintains every single part of her body after birth which she had prior to the conception except for the egg which combined with the father’s sperm to create the new individual human being. She is, like all parents of children are, required to use her body to provide for the sustenance of her child. As a father of several children, if I don’t do that I will have my earnings garnished and can even be imprisoned. If I decide to kill my children because they impose an inconvenient burden on my body I will definitely be imprisoned, and possibly killed.

Most women don't know about their early miscarriages, your wife is an exception.

This is not true. Almost every couple we know has had an early miscarriage (it’s quite common) and they all knew/suspected.

Once again, a fetus isn't a child yet.

Techically a child is simply the offspring of its parent (in the case of asexual reproduction) or parents (in case of sexual reproduction) no matter what stage of development. So yes, a fetus is a child of it’s parents, just as at 48 years old I was the child of my 79 year old father.

not a doula who is presumably a prolifer.

Many doulas and natural childbirth advocates (on the east coast of the US) are drawn from the more feminist and progressive leaning political culture though they do tend to become advocates for life as they work with more mothers and see firsthand the damage that abortion does to women.

Abortion isn't an easy choice and it surely can have a toll on one's mental state. I've read enough stories of women bring totally fine after it though.

Some are, mostly because they concentrate on ignoring and suppressing what they have done. But for many that do, the sadness and regret comes later. Every single one of my wife’s friends who has had one has come to regret their abortions later in life, and they were all raised in ardent pro-abortion households.

[–]NarniaFox 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

we don’t know that

I'm talking about it from a medical point of view, not a philosophical one. Doctors have no problems with checking whether a person is responsive to the outside world. If they aren't for a long time and can't keep their existence without a life support apparatus, doctores usually advice to end their vegetative state of not-living.

When we learned that he was fleeing the sonogram we never did another one.

There are some kinds of plant that can "hide" their leaves when they're touched. Does it mean that have self-awareness?

Also about not doing sonograms...so if a fetus had some malformations, you'd learn about it only in the end. Yeah, very sensible way of making children.

An egg isn’t an individual chicken because it is a zygote.

You know that there are fertilized eggs as well?

A fetus can become a human and there is a chance that it will never get to the stage of having self-awareness whether due to abortions, miscarriage or being malformed. It's okay to stop the cycle, as it hasn't become a human yet. It had had a chance, but it doesn't mean the carrier has to provide the opportunity to every fetus it happened to cary.

Btw, I guess you're against IVF as well?

She is, like all parents of children are, required to use her body to provide for the sustenance of her child.

I know you'll object it, but pregnancy and giving birth are dangerous and the often lead to permanent changes in your body. A father doesn't have the same side-effects, as he physically can't get stretches, incontinence, back pain, blood clots etc. due to his partner's pregnancy.

A mother does surrender some part of her health to the child even if the pregnancy was wanted and planned. It's stress for the body and it has its own toll.

every couple we know has had an early miscarriage

If they were planning pregnancy and a woman was doing pregnancy tests all the time.

a fetus is a child of it’s parents

Strictly speaking, I'd say that a fetus becomes a child only when it's born.

they do tend to become advocates for life

They become biased due to their work.

for many that do, the sadness and regret comes later

And it's okay. As I've said it isn't an easy choice, most people don't do it because they're just "inconvenienced", they have reasons for it. There are plenty of parents regretting they decided to have children as well.

I'm from Russia, abortions there were a contraceptive at some point due to lack of or total abstinence of condoms. There are still enough older women who did 3,5,9 abortions. Most of them are fine because it was never seen as a murder. They had enough children and couldn't feed more. I don't think it's okay, but the point is that our attitude to something usually comes from the society.

[–]SeemedGoodRed Pill Man 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

I'm talking about it from a medical point of view, not a philosophical one. Doctors have no problems with checking whether a person is responsive to the outside world.

So am I. Doctors literally cannot define when consciousness begins, ends, nor even what it is.

There are some kinds of plant that can "hide" their leaves when they're touched. Does it mean that have self-awareness?

Yes, obviously.

You know that there are fertilized eggs as well?

Yes, an early stage in the development of a chicken. We call it the same thing because externally it looks like an egg (zygote), but technically (biologically) it’s no longer purely an egg (zygote) - just as once a woman’s egg is fertilized with a man’s sperm it is no longer an egg (zygote). In fact we call that process conception precisely because it is the point at which a new individual human being is conceived (created).

Also about not doing sonograms...so if a fetus had some malformations, you'd learn about it only in the end. Yeah, very sensible way of making children.

Well I don’t believe that human beings who are “malformed” have less inherent value than human beings who are not. What is “malformed” anyway? It’s arbitrary. Some have said that my ancestors were “malformed” and thus not human and thus able to be kept as property of others or arbitrarily killed. The Nazis did the same thing with both Jews and Slavs (and they killed more Slavs in concentration camps than they did Jews).

A fetus can become a human and there is a chance that it will never get to the stage of having self-awareness whether due to abortions, miscarriage or being malformed.

At what stage in the development of a human being does it become a human being exactly? The question is ridiculous on its face because it’s obviously a human being at any stage of its development. Again, we call conception, conception because it is the point at which an individual human being is conceived and comes into existence. From that point on it’s just a matter of the particular state of development of a live human being until it’s death. All other assignations of humanity are purely arbitrary and unsupported scientifically.

I know you'll object it, but pregnancy and giving birth are dangerous and the often lead to permanent changes in your body. A father doesn't have the same side-effects, as he physically can't get stretches, incontinence, back pain, blood clots etc. due to his partner's pregnancy.

A mother does surrender some part of her health to the child even if the pregnancy was wanted and planned. It's stress for the body and it has its own toll.

Just as men’s bodies have been designed for approximately 175,000 years to do hard work in order to provide for their offspring, women’s bodies have been designed over the same period to bear them. And many more men’s bodies are permanently injured, damaged and killed in providing for their offspring than women’s are in bearing them.

It's okay to stop the cycle, as it hasn't become a human yet. It had had a chance, but it doesn't mean the carrier has to provide the opportunity to every fetus it happened to cary.

Not all of my children may make it to adulthood either. Just because they may not live out their full developmental lifespan does not confer on me the right to be able to have them killed, dismembered, and their body parts sold for scientific research.

Strictly speaking, I'd say that a fetus becomes a child only when it's born.

...and strictly speaking you’d be incorrect.

They become biased due to their work.

Yes, when they experience the damage, it changes their opinion. Most empathetic and sympathetic people become averse to things that they see cause damage when they are not deriving their sustenance from it.

As I've said it isn't an easy choice,

Of course not, killing another human is never an easy choice, even for soldiers.

most people don't do it because they're just "inconvenienced", they have reasons for it.

...which almost always boil down to wanting to avoid an inconvenient burden of care.

I don't think it's okay, but the point is that our attitude to something usually comes from the society.

Unfortunately yes. This is how we get slavery and genocide. It all starts with dehumanizing the victims - which is what you have been arguing this whole thread.

[–] NarniaFox 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Doctors literally cannot define when consciousness begins

They know for sure that one needs a functioning brain for having consciousness and in the beginning of its existence a fetus doesn't have a brain as well as any other body parts.

Yes, obviously.

Okay, do you really claim that a plant has self-awareness?

we call that process conception

We call this process conception because it's the moment when a zygote is formed. Not a child.

And a fertilized chicken egg isn't a chicken yet.

What is “malformed” anyway? It’s arbitrary.

It isn't arbitrary at all. If a baby can't grow into a self-aware person who can live without excessive medical care, I'd say they are malformed. As well as if they die short time after birth or live short life full of pain due to their illnesses/malformation.

At what stage in the development of a human being does it become a human being exactly?

The question isn't when it becomes a human being, but when it becomes a person.

Plus, having a human DNA doesn't mean you're a human being yet.

women’s bodies have been designed over the same period to bear them

We were "designed" pretty badly, you know. Thanks to the upright posture giving birth has become a big problem and even a century ago lots of women were dying and getting injured due to it.

Right now the risk to die is pretty slim, but you still bear all the side-effects of pregnancy and giving birth.

Not all of my children may make it to adulthood either.

I'm sorry for you.

You can't force other people consider fetuses children though and fortunately you can't take their rights to decide for themselves.

I wonder, are you a vegetarian? There are people who don't eat meat because they find it unethical. They can't force other stop eating it and it's pretty hard to convert a meat-eater into a vegetarian solely on moral basis.

...which almost always boil down to wanting to avoid an inconvenient burden of care

It isn't inconvenience and as a person having kids you are well aware of it. You have to change your whole life to accomodate a child and a woman has to bear all health-related consequences of childbirth.

you have been arguing this whole thread

We have polar views - you believe that a fetus is a person, I think the opposite. A fetus is a fetus and during the possible term for abortion it stays just a fetus. Morally it can be a child for someone who wants to keep it, but it hasn't developed into a person yet however you claim the opposite.

The difference is that pro-choice want to save the right of choice. Pro-lifers want to ban it for everyone.

[–] SeemedGood Red Pill Man 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

They know for sure that one needs a functioning brain for having consciousness and in the beginning of its existence a fetus doesn't have a brain as well as any other body parts.

They absolutely do not. As I have repeatedly stated we don’t even have a scientific understanding of what consciousness actually is and have absolutely no idea when it begins, nor when it ends actually. We do know what electrochemical reactions in the brain are, but those are not consciousness, and we don’t even know how those work all that well. We can build an electrochemical computer that would function somewhat similarly to a brain, but it would not be conscious (because we don’t yet understand what consciousness is), nor would it be alive. What we do know definitively, however, is that a human being is alive and developing from the moment of conception.

And by the way, brain and spinal cord development begin by 28 days after conception. A baby’s skin, central nervous system, heart, eyes and ears start developing even earlier (by 21 days after conception).

Okay, do you really claim that a plant has self-awareness?

If it can move itself in response to external stimuli, it must have some level of self awareness, though certainly not the same as that of you, or I, or an unborn child.

We call this process conception because it's the moment when a zygote is formed. Not a child.

We call it fertilization because it is the moment at which a fully human DNA structure is formed (the zygote). We call it conception because it is the moment at which an individual living human being is conceived and begins its own development.

Technically, it is a child of its parent the moment that it becomes an live individual human being (conception). The term child is not a scientific term, it is a relational term. It defines a relationship between a parent and that parent’s offspring. Technically your offspring is any live being whose cells contain half of your DNA and half of those of a person with whom your half merged in the fertilization process. So a zygote with half of your DNA is technically your offspring and it’s relational state to you is child to parent.

And a fertilized chicken egg isn't a chicken yet.

Actually, technically it is since (scientifically) we define both species and individuals within s species genetically. An unfertilized egg is not genetically a chicken, a fertilized one is actually genetically a chicken, it’s just a chicken in a very early stage of development.

It isn't arbitrary at all. If a baby can't grow into a self-aware person who can live without excessive medical care, I'd say they are malformed. As well as if they die short time after birth or live short life full of pain due to their illnesses/malformation.

This whole assertion is full of arbitrary designations. How do you specifically, technically, scientifically, and consistently define self-aware? How do you define “excessive” medical care? What’s a “short” time after birth - a few minutes, hours, days, or weeks? Does another person being in pain confer on you the right to have them killed, dismembered, and their body parts sold off for scientific research? You even used the phrase “I’d say” precisely because you’re dealing in arbitrary designations and others might “say” differently (because you’re dealing in arbitrary designations).

Again, what is not arbitrary and has clear and consistent scientific basis is the fact that a scientifically designated individual live being begins its course of human development at conception and ends it at death. We know this to be true because we know that the zygote is a live individual cell of the human species by it’s genetic structure.

The question isn't when it becomes a human being, but when it becomes a person.

Again, this is an arbitrary legal definition. At times my ancestors were not legally defined as persons either. Assuming you are Slavic, you wouldn’t have been a legal person in German controlled territory in 1940 either - and the government could have used your lack of personhood to legally kill you (and they did just that to roughly 10mm of your fellow Slavs). Still they were (and you would have been) human beings even though they were not (and you wouldn’t have been) persons. Oh and they also killed roughly 300,000 “deformed” human beings in concentration camps as well.

Plus, having a human DNA doesn't mean you're a human being yet.

No, but having human DNA and being alive in a state of development is exactly what scientifically defines you as an individual human being.

We were "designed" pretty badly, you know. Thanks to the upright posture giving birth has become a big problem and even a century ago lots of women were dying and getting injured due to it.

This is simply factually incorrect. Most existing life forms are designed exceedingly well for their tasks, millions of years of evolution tends to weed out inefficient and ineffective designs. Homo Sapiens Sapiens has been giving birth relatively efficiently for almost 200,000 years now with a basic physical structure that was developed to do so for well over 1,000,000 years. You should learn more about birth, it’s actually not that dangerous. Sure movie and TV writers like to make it seem that way because it’s a cheap source of creating dramatic tensi9n, but nature begs to differ.

You can't force other people consider fetuses children though

No, but that has nothing to do with the fact that they quite literally and technically are (axiomatically), whether or not their parents want to believe it.

I'm sorry for you.

Don’t be. No one is guaranteed a full life, not you, nor I. It’s all a probability distribution. I just don’t think that because we are not guaranteed a full life and development others should have the right to have us killed at their whim.

You have to change your whole life to accomodate a child and a woman has to bear all health-related consequences of childbirth.

I am well aware that I have had to change my whole life to care for children and I have suffered health consequences of it. That is, in fac, why some people find the duty of care that children impose inconvenient enough to have them killed rather than suffer it.

We have polar views - you believe that a fetus is a person,

No, I believe that a fetus is an early developmental stage of a human being because that is a scientifically established fact. Unfortunately, however, a fetus is not legally defined as a person so that some people can choose to kill other human beings at their discretion merely because they present an inconvenient burden of care.

A fetus is a fetus and during the possible term for abortion it stays just a fetus.

And a fetus is (both technically and scientifically) an early developmental stage of an individual human being.

Morally it can be a child for someone who wants to keep it, but it hasn't developed into a person yet however you claim the opposite.

I never claimed that a fetus is a person as a person is a legally defined term which is not inclusive of all human beings. At one point in some cultures, women were not considered to be persons either. Why not go back to that when women inconvenience men?

The difference is that pro-choice want to save the right of choice. Pro-lifers want to ban it for everyone.

When the choice involves the killing, dismemberment, and off selling of the body parts of other individual human beings, maybe it should be banned?

If not let’s at least be consistent about it and allow anyone to have other inconvenient human beings killed, dismembered, and their body parts sold off arbitrarily. Maybe we can start by removing the legal classification for women as persons, and instead of having to undergo a painful and burdensome divorce we could just have our wives killed when we got tired of them. I don’t think most women are particularly conscious or objective self aware anyway, and since there’s no standard for the measurement of consciousness, it should be OK.

[–] NarniaFox 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

You keep confusing philosophical/ethical sense with medical one. There are medical ways to check the level of patients' consciousness and due to studies we know that one has to have a functioning brain to be consciousness. Fetuses don't have fully formed brain till the late stages of pregnancy when the abortion is banned.

Okay, I've read it through and I see no reason in continuing it. The question whether a fetus is a person or not doesn't have one answer and it'll stay open until we find a scientific way to answer and debate it. Right now everyone decides for themselves and fortunately in most countries women have access to abortions.

And if you do want to reduce the numbers of abortions, you should promote sex education and contraceptives, not the abortion ban. I'm from Russia, our history is rally clear about abortion ban - people don't stop aborting fetuses, they just do it illegally.

[–] SeemedGood Red Pill Man 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

You keep confusing philosophical/ethical sense with medical one. There are medical ways to check the level of patients' consciousness and due to studies we know that one has to have a functioning brain to be consciousness.

Nope. You are factually incorrect. You may actually wish to research this before expounding on it. We have no scientific idea what consciousness actually is, though there are theories. We literally cannot detect it, and we have no good idea how it is connected to brain activity. We can measure peole’s reactiveness to external stimulus, but we know that reactiveness is distinct from consciousness.

Fetuses don't have fully formed brain till the late stages of pregnancy when the abortion is banned.

And that’s not relevant because we don’t know how consciousness intersects with brain activity. But what we do know is that from relatively early in their fetal development human beings react to external stimuli.

The question whether a fetus is a person or not doesn't have one answer

This is also factually incorrect. It very much does have one answer and the answer will be found in the legal code of whatever jurisdiction in which you happen to live. The personhood status of a human being is nothing more than a legal definition as the entire idea of personhood is merely a legal fiction. Personhood is not a scientific term, it is just a legal term. In America, for example, corporations (which are most certainly not human beings) are are legally defined as persons. Human beings in the stage of fetal development are most certainly not defined as persons I the US, similar to the way in which both my and your ancestors were not legally defined as persons in certain jurisdictions at certain historical points of time.

Right now everyone decides for themselves

Nope. Your government has decided for you and will hold you accountable to whatever their definition of a person is.

[–] NarniaFox 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–] SeemedGood Red Pill Man 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Our scientific community clearly distinguishes between responsiveness and consciousness. People often become “unconscious” in terms of responsiveness but maintain their consciousness. The ideas are distinct. Surely you do not intend to argue that the state of being “unconscious” creates a state in which a human being has no right to life (think for example an unconscious woman college student at a frat party: does she then become a thing because she is unconscious?). We do know that one needs a functioning brain for responsiveness but we do not know what constitutes consciousness.

If you do intend to argue that responsiveness defines an individual human being, then any individual human being must then lose that status when he or she becomes unconscious in terms of responsiveness (which happens quite frequently).

They usually aren't forced into having an abortion and if they believe that a fetus is a person, they don't do it. Or do, as we've seen enough stories about pro-lifers doing an abortion because they do have a good reason for it.

And if a right to one’s life is dependent on personhood (a legal term), one’s right can be stripped at any point legally, as it was in German controlled territory during WWII when they killed 10,000,000 or so of your people in concentration camps. Or, if tomorrow, my government stripped legal personhood status from women, we could then treat them as property and kill them when they became too bothersome (and gave their owners “a good reason” to do so)s. You probably don’t actually want to live in a world in which an individual human being’s right to live is dependent on whether or not they are defined as a person.

I don't get what you're trying to achieve claiming that a person isn't a scientific term.

I’m simply trying to point out the truth. A person is not a scientifically defined term. It has a fluid meaning which can be arbitrarily assigned to (or removed from) any individual at any point. Thus it makes a very poor designation on which to base your own right to your own life. At times in history in some societies, women were not considered persons. It would behoove you not to base an argument to your own the right to live on something so tenuous as whether or not your society considers you as a person as that can literally change tomorrow.

[–] NarniaFox 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

There are different levels of consciousness and if there is a confirmed brain death, it's better to let the body die, as the person is already not there anymore. And people with dead brain do lose their rights, as now their relatives or other confidants bear responsibility for their bodies. Mind though that coma and brain death are different things.

I want to live in a world where your body autonomy is respected. When we'll be able to keep all fetuses alive or frozen instead of getting rid of them, we can talk about their rights. No one can use other person's body even for keeping themselves alive.

Oh, most our rights depend on legal terms and morals. Biologically we all animals and rules of animal kingdom are pretty severe. Animals have no problems with killing or abandoning their offsprings if there aren't enough resources for them. Plus, a lot of mammals have a physical ability to abort pregnancy if the conditions aren't right. Unfortunately, we lost this ability with evolution as our zygotes get rooted as deep as they can in order not to be rejected by our bodies and our bodies do try to reject as much zygotes as they can.

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[–] LittyKitsune 2 points 3 points 4 points 5 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

Lol you talk about "they" like I'm not a religious woman myself.

Like I said I've done and seen the exact opposite of what you're saying. Old Catholic family, Catholic schools all my life, made a beeline for the Catholic/Christian communities as soon as I started at a secular coed college. All but one of of the guys I've dated plus the one I'm currently seeing have been virgins. All of my friends who aren't single/considering vows of celibacy are dating equally religious virgins.

That’s how women behave all over the world, why would you expect religious women to be any different?

This is like asking why I would expect religious men to behave any differently from secular men. The ones who are serious about the faith do behave differently. This is why I'm more comfortable dating them. And for me, comfort is directly tied to desire.

[–] SeemedGood Red Pill Man 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–] LittyKitsune 2 points 3 points 4 points 5 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

Funny you should say that because Catholic girls who were raised traditionally Catholic are notorious across the US for being the most lascivious of religious women

Right because porn tells you so, and porn is always right. We know. Meanwhile in real life we don't pretend that only fourth base actually counts.

(and the priesthood has a similar reputation globally).

Yes and we all know that Protestant ministers are known globally for their squeaky clean reputations and absolute faithfulness to their wives. Definitely.

Yet the striving for such and the actual accomplishment of such remain distinct (and that’s why you need a Saviour).

Striving for such entails seeking a man who can control his desire. A woman who seeks high N men has different priorities. Can't relate to that, or worshipping in a community where this alleged fixation persists.

[–] SeemedGood Red Pill Man 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–] LittyKitsune 2 points 3 points 4 points 5 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Catholic women developed that reputation long before the widespread dissemination of porn and porn culture.

It's a misconception codified by porn/porn culture and general evangelical suspicion toward Catholicism that has existed for centuries.

"Their women are sluts."

"They worship Mary/the devil/statues/spaghetti monster."

"They pledge allegiance to Italy."

Heard it all before. None of it's true outside of porn, hysteria fantasy land, and "I know a friend of a friend of a friend whose Catholic niece is like that" land. Yes, promiscuous women exist in every walk of life. To claim it's especially prevalent among Catholics relative to other Christian groups is a myth driven by confirmation bias.

More so, it entails the introspection, objective self observation, and self critique that women routinely eschew in droves - even within religious communities.

I know Christian women who say the exact same about men, or say all the serious ones are already taken or entering the priesthood. I don't buy that noise. There are people of both sexes who are lax with their devotion to the faith, and single people of both sexes who are serious and practice what you describe.

[–] SeemedGood Red Pill Man 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

It's a misconception codified by porn/porn culture and general evangelical suspicion toward Catholicism that has existed for centuries.

A “misconception” born of people’s actual collective experience with girls from Catholic schools in largely Northeastern communities in the US during the 1960s, 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s, long before porn and the porn culture became mainstream.

There are people of both sexes who are lax with their devotion to the faith, and single people of both sexes who are serious and practice what you describe.

True, but women are far more prone to eschew introspection, objective self observation, and self critique in modern Western culture, whether religious or not. In such societies, and often particularly in religious communities, women are generally encouraged to adopt the WAWE and view themselves as victims, a state of mind that is antithetical to introspection, objective self observation, and self critique.

[–] LittyKitsune 1 point 2 points 3 points 5 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

A “misconception” born of people’s actual collective experience with girls from Catholic schools in largely Northeastern communities in the US during the 1960s, 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s, long before porn and the porn culture became mainstream.

Already covered the factors that created the misconception outside of porn. Porn reinforces/perpetuates it.

True, but women are far more prone to eschew introspection, objective self observation, and self critique in modern Western culture, whether religious or not.

Sure, I take you just as seriously as the religious women who make the exact same claim about men.

In such societies, and often particularly in religious communities, women are generally encouraged to adopt the WAWE and view themselves as victims, a state of mind that is antithetical to introspection, objective self observation, and self critique.

Considering the many communities and congregations where women are still expected to cover up, practice modesty, and remain virgins until marriage in part if not entirely for the benefit of men this is just blatantly false.

[–] SeemedGood Red Pill Man -1 points 0 points 1 point 5 years ago * (2 children) | Copy Link

Sure, I take you just as seriously as the religious women who make the exact same claim about men.

That is your prerogative, but you would serve yourself better if you didn’t presume that everyone’s points are equally valid because men and women are, in fact, fundamentally different and those fundamental differences result in significant behavioral differences.

the many communities and congregations where women are still expected to cover up, practice modesty, and remain virgins until marriage

In what percentage of US communities and congregations would you say this is true?

In the local Catholic congregation where I live (which is in a very conservative and religious part of the US), fewer than 5% of the women cover up, the teen aged girls are far and away the least modest of any in the religious community, the children are allowed to have girlfriends and boyfriends at as early as 10 years old, and the teens (both male and female) are allowed to date without chaperones.

[–] LittyKitsune 2 points 3 points 4 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

That is your prerogative, but you would serve yourself better if you didn’t presume that everyone’s points are equally valid

Nope. I know too many exceptions to each conclusion to consider either one valid.

In what percentage of US communities and congregations would you say this is true

Considering sheer number of religious communities and congregations in the U.S., no idea. They are definitely prevalent in the South/Bible Belt, where I was born and raised.

In the local Catholic congregation where I live (which is in a very conservative and religious part of the US), fewer than 5% of the women cover up, the teen aged girls are far and away the least modest of any in the religious community, the children are allowed to have girlfriends and boyfriends at as early as 10 years old, and the teens (both male and female) are allowed to date without chaperones.

If I had a nickel for every time a Protestant irl who's never stepped foot in our church has told me what the women in my community are like and how they dress and gotten it completely wrong, I'd be rich.

In any case, my family is waiting to watch Mulan. God Bless!

[–] SeemedGood Red Pill Man 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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Women who were rejected in their 20s for LTRs by high value men often don’t know the reason why they were rejected

We're talking about high value men who have knowingly settled with women who are not low n count.

Most women who are looking to settle down during their 30s do so with men who don’t have the option to be picky, hence they’re more “open” to disregarding a woman’s (extensive) sexual history.

LOL. The average age for marriage in the US: 30 for men, 28 for women.

But maybe things are different in your country, IDK.

Women here are using their husband as a marker.

Women here have friends, family, coworkers, neighbors, TONS of men they've known throughout their lives. These experiences are based not only our own experiences dating men but what we've seen.

They should look at their past.

I don't even know what this means, other than "I'll attempt to shut down the conversation by accusing women on PPD of being sluts."

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Let me repeat. It is the experience of women here who actually date and have LTRs with men (I assume you do not date men?) that men don't care about n count. As long as we're not talking about extremes as defined by normie Western culture, it's a non issue.

And no they are not desparate and they are not low value and yes they are men with options.

Every woman has here has told you that men have not been asked their n count ("n count isn't even a term anyone uses outside the Reddit nerdosphere) since we were in high school or college -- when men were more inexperienced and more insecure.

"Given all my dating experience" (love the subtle name calling) what I know to be true is that men obssessed with this issue are 1) inexperienced themselves and 2) lacking the emotional intelligence and social acumen to screen for character -- which would make sult fear a non issue. It's not about an arbitrary number, it's about character. Which most of you couldn't find with two hands and flashlight

This is why you never answered me and got defensive when I asked you the other day what your background is huh?

[–]SeemedGoodRed Pill Man 3 points4 points5 points 5 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link

Every woman has here has told you that men have not been asked their n count

Don’t mistake us not asking or saying anything with us not caring. Yes, lots of us don’t ask for n-count. I never have. Rather we simply observe your behaviors, take our cues, and make our decisions without ever saying a word about it. And in tight social groups in which you are known we talk about your reputations with each other when you aren’t around. So, we don’t need to ask you or even comment (especially if we are experienced with women), but that doesn’t mean we don’t care.

This is why you never answered me and got defensive when I asked you the other day what your background is huh?

I did actually answer you IIRC, with a question asking you to clarify what you mean by background. I’m certainly not defensive about my background (other than doxxing myself), and I have discussed it with you before. Happy to do so again if you will clarify what you mean - socioeconomic, regional, educational, philosophical, ethnic, family, work experience, sexual, religious, etc. The last time you asked the context was unclear so I asked for clarification and you never responded.

[–]poppy_blu 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

[–]SeemedGoodRed Pill Man 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago* (15 children) | Copy Link

"I ask her and she tells me what she did with past guys" was the very point that kicked off this exchange between us.

I have never made any such assertion as that which you quoted. Rather, I have consistently asserted that men (generally) care about n-count and prefer lower n-count in potential LTR/marriage partners.

No you haven't.

I have. We specifically discussed my career background when you contested an assertion that I made about Wall Street in response to some other naive poster talking out the side of her neck. We specifically discussed where I lived when I worked on Wall Street when you took issue with my portrayal of SAHMs in my community. And finally, we specifically discussed my travel in Africa when you tried to assert that West Africa was no more polygynous than Mormon areas of the US and I called you out on that BS. Apparently, you have a memory like that of Joe Biden (and having nursed a father through dementia I know I probably shouldn’t joke about that but the mass denial is too much).

And it's not a complicated question.

I gave you all the potential vectors such a question could take and I have no idea which ones have drawn your inquiry. To address them all would be laborious overkill. If you’re so curious, just tell me specifically what you want to know and I’ll gladly share anything that won’t dox me.

Edit: And interestingly enough, when you claimed to have spent a lot of time in Africa (not seeing polygyny) and I asked you where you had been, you got defensive and told me it was none of my business. Perhaps you are projecting your own reluctance here?

[–] poppy_blu 1 point 2 points 3 points 5 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

[–] SeemedGood Red Pill Man 1 point 2 points 3 points 5 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

We discussed polygamy in Africa because you asserted that Africa had no more of a tradition of polygamy than parts of Mormon America, in response to my assertion that polygamy is common in large parts of West Africa. You did assert that is was restricted to the upper class and I replied that I have been a guest in the homes of polygamous families that would not be considered wealthy by any western standard, and very much middle class by West African standards, both urban and rural. In that discussion I told you that I have traveled extensively in sub-Saharan West Africa. Again, you declined to discuss where in Africa you travelled.

I neither slut shamed you (that’s something women do, and note that you yourself referred to your own dating experience as being the source of your authority to comment) nor did I misrepresent anything which you asserted.

Am am not African, I am a black American.

Is that the “background” about which you were curious?

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So what you’re saying is women who haven’t ridden many different cocks don’t have social skills, and that riding many cocks is a prerequisite for developing social skills. Do you actually believe that?? Lmfao

To your other point: A woman can be physically attractive without being sexy, but a woman can’t be sexy without being physically attractive.

Ugly and average chicks (without makeup) can’t be sexy. You’re trying to tell me, a man, what we should find sexy.

Even if an average woman could take steps to be sexy, racking up a high cock count isn’t one of those steps.

I honestly can’t believe my eyes. You’re trying to tell me that racking up cocks makes a woman sexier. LMFAO.

If women really believed that, they wouldn’t lie about their n-counts.

(Lying about n-count includes the lies women tell themselves: that one last week didn’t count because xyz teehee)

[–]TheJim66Red God-Emperor of Slut Country 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

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True that it’s an exercise in theory because no two humans are the same and all else is never equal.

But again, those of us with significant experience with women understand well that the lower n-count women will likely make better long term partners (which is statistically supported), and they are no less sexy. In fact, they are often sexier - because they are less cynical and tend to be more vibrantly feminine. They are also likely better decision-makers, likely emotionally attach more strongly to sex partners, and they tend to revere sex more (which is a good thing).

Women have a very strong innate and subconscious tendency towards mate-choice copying, men do not. Women value men simply because they are valued by other women. We experience that there is no better aphrodisiac than being seen with other attractive women and being desired by them. Women are highly competitive in their mate choices, the fact that many other women valued a man enough to be sexually intimate with him simply signals value to them.

The opposite is true for women. It’s very easy for women to find partners for sexual intimacy (all the have to do is be a woman who says yes) and higher numbers of such partners signal a lack of self worth, a lack of reverence for sexual intimacy, and a lack of good decision-making.

It’s much harder to earn a million dollars than it is to give away a million dollars. Show me a man who has earned $5 million in a free market and I’ll show you a man who can clearly create value. Show me a man who handed out $5 million that he was given by his parents to 5000 random people on the street, and I’ll show you a man that can clearly disperse value. The first is more rare, anyone can do the second.

[–]flamingoinghomeIs three lizards in trench coat 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

In fact, they are often sexier - because they are less cynical and tend to be more vibrantly feminine. They are also likely better decision-makers, likely emotionally attach more strongly to sex partners

IME, PPD men are very much overstating how many men like feminine personalities. Most men, from everything I've seen, prefer masculine personalities in femme-presenting women. And honestly? i've yet to see a guy who LIKES it if a woman gets clingier after sex.

Women have a very strong innate and subconscious tendency towards mate-choice copying, men do not.

Wrong. You do not date men, so you don't see it. Men ABSOLUTELY have a preference for a woman other guys want.

That said, in both circumstances, the desire is the relevant factor. How the object of said desire reacts to it is largely irrelevant.

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One day your mum won't be among us anymore and those comments will hit you like an arrow.

Lol true but she could just as easily leave comments on my Facebook which I have almost specifically to keep in touch with family and friends from back home, but she won't get on Facebook because she thinks it's a republican conspiracy or something.

Either way, she's fucking up my attempt to see if I can get laid on instagram.

If you can not transform mum comments on social media about something to brah about to girls, it means you are not that good at the game either way.

Yes I can not transform some of her comments into funny things, they're just retarded. My mom is like 65 and mostly babbles and i am borderline autistic in the first place. Just let me post a damn picture of myself flying an airplane without bringing up how I used to jump off the picnic table trying to fly as a little kid.

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Because it feels good?

Sex feels good yes, putting your dick in anything feels good.

You need to convince yourself to bang a woman?

There's a difference between what you could do and what you want.

You could. It's just costly and unsanitary

Actually its worth the cost, because the girls that fuck for free aren't professionals making dude wear a rubber and getting STD checked. Trust me, I've gotten lucky a lot of times not fucking em to find out they were infected. Paying for the medical bills is a lot more expensive than hanging out for 5 minutes before sticking your dick in lol

If there were free clean prostitutes around, men would use them 24/7

There are no shortage of them. Tinder is a whorehouse if you know what you're doing. I just have this weird fetish of getting off with someone I know vs a stranger. I don't even watch porn just have the nudes I've been sent. My kink is weird bro lol

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But why does it turn them on?

I think both men and women are attracted to violence and turned on by it. Men are educated to keep this in check: violence is bad in general but sexual violence against women of your tribe (which nowadays is the whole world) is a serious sin. If a man watches pervert porn, if some hacker could manage for real to get a video of him masturbating to it, he could end his social life. Men internalize the idea that violence isn't for pleasure (only enjoyable to a degree in regulated sports). Also, men live in violence while women live in a cotton candy world where the only physical contacts are kisses and booby hugs. Their relation to violence is entirely mediated by men, so any attraction they can have to violence will manifest as sexual. (If you're a sweet guy who's uncomfortable slapping your gf's butt and wondering what's wrong with her, try to remember this: you're the violence of her life).

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What do you mean?

Many bosses are WAY less capable than their subordinates, and many times these capable subordinates need to spend a enormous amount of their resources to fix the shit that these incapable bosses are doing wrong.

This happens because these subordinates can't say to their bosses faces that they are morons and should be more responsible with their actions as the ones with the most power in the relationship. Thus, making these bosses these irresponsible/incompetent people how they are.

I feel as if it is something similar. None wants to say 'you are a uncompromising, irresponsible and stupid cunt' to a woman or their bosses, because they would lose sex and salary respectively.

A proof of this concept is that when women age and lose all capability of being fuckable, these women 'suddenly' show up as 'Karens'. Which in truth are just normal women who lost their attractiveness, thus unable to avoid being criticized by their terrible behavior.

Karens don't just show up fully formed at 35-55... that is normal woman behavior. The difference is that they used to be hot. They aren't crazy, they are just women.

[–]NarniaFox 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]Workaholiconew 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link

Power structures and Instinct basically. We need to fuck and we are compelled to do stupid shit like this because of our nature and let it live. We can't use of violence and even if we try to fix things. We are the villains and the problem... so we don't even try. And live away from it...

The inability/hardship to fix a broken system in general (be it this thing with the incompetent in the top or the many other problems) is what leads so many men to abandon society at large and go to a farm away somewhere, or just go to Tanriel or some shit. It is just easier to avoid the problems than actually fixing it. So they do just that.

Maybe... just maybe... the karen meme is and always were the concept of a obnoxious, rude and down right violent woman who abuses her priviledge of avoiding responsibility in this society. So these karens push it to its fucking limit.

You dont need to be sweet or accomodating to ve a karen. You need to push your priviledge to the limit. Sure some stretch it thin... but the meaning never changed. Obnouxious woman who stretches people patience thin.

[–]NarniaFox 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

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I don't doubt you do not empathize with it. Just as much I do not empathize with liking dicks. But believe me there is a instinct compelling all men towards sex and make a man lose a lot if the man does not comply... Call it as you will. Drive, need, desire. Whatever. But it exist. And lucky are the ones without it. I damn wished I was one of those.

Do you have any statistics about men avoiding society?

I mean. Wasnt it you who talked about how men are becoming reclusive, prefering games than deal with others, to have no connection in real life, not even wanting to work for more than just the bare minimum for them to live and whatnot? Why do I need to prove it to you? You keep criticizing men for doing just that all the time.

how the hell people can hold to two ideas that contradict to each other.

Because they don't contradict each other. Not everyone who is better is at the top in this society. By that metric we wouldn't have Boris, Trump or Bolsonaro in power. Power is what giver power. Not merit. You can use merit to gain power. But it is just easier and more reasonable to not bother and just get enough power to not bother dealing with the world at large. Only a power hungry person will bother do more than that. And power you see. To most men is a means to an end. Usually between some woman's legs. We don't need it that much of it.

Some people are quite bad at using insults in the right context.

It does not make it any less real.

[–]NarniaFox 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Once again, I've met and read enough stories from guys who are okay with not having sex or having less than they'd want.

If your words are true, this alone means that men aren't superior to women. Being led by your sexual urges isn't what I'd call superior at all.

I really don't think that I was talking about guys getting the bare minimum to live. My point was quite the opposite, I don't know a guy who is okay with a bare minimum and yours was the opposite.

We aren't talking just about being better, I was talking about "superior". And in terms of people thinking like this it also usually means that they are better not just morally, but practically as well. So they are better at leading, solving problems, getting things done, winning etc. And they still can't make things right due to evil women.

You haven't met a person using an "incel" for a guy who just annoyed them?

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This is a never ending debate because (young) women have all the power here. Because dating, hookups and short term relationships are all a buyer's market for women. They set the terms and conditions.

Ideally, there should never be a controversy with the 50:50 price sharing because that's literally calling for equality. But since women have disproportionate influence, they deliberately pick and choose what kind of equality they want. In other words, women today are abusing their dominant position to swindle money out of men's wallets under the threats of shaming.

Back in those days, women didn't have equal rights. So to compensate for that, some men started to act "gentle" so to speak to differentiate between the unequal status quo men of the past. Women today believe they are entitled to that same archaic "gentleman" behavior even though we are technically equal under the rule of law.

Every women I meet or interact with go to work or have all the freedom to pursue whatever the fuck they want with no one to tell them what to do (Except online spaces of course, but who cares about the people on the internet right?)

There is absolutely no need to act "gentle" towards women today. They all got what they wanted and wear the big boy pants now. Acting gentle towards women in 2020 is just simp behavior. It comes across as desperate, in vain and just an invitation for women to pussy whip the guy.

This is why no guys should ever agree to dates when you meet for the first time. Remember, attraction is NOT a choice. If she likes you, she's going to make exceptions to the rule anyway for you.

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She was organising a physical protest that could result in thousands of people breaking lockdown, the r value going up, and the lockdown and the effect on people's freedom being extended for weeks or even months longer. She is the risk to freedom there. What she was doing was illegal and she got treated many times more gently than we treat people every damn day of the week who deal pot or resell stolen goods. Just a set of firm but polite cops tàking her in and taking the evidence in so they can shut it down fully. She can have her routine ultrasound some other day. Today she will be having cops ask her questions, go through her online interactions in great detail to shut down any other places she has been calling for people to break the rules of the state of emergency, to trace anyone who has been calling on her to break laws, and make a decision what to charge her with and whether ask the judge to put in place a special set of rules just for her for the duration of the state of emergency.

[–]geyges🐇 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]ontherailstoday 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

> idk what people were doing in Australia,

Of course you don't.

Our covid death toll for a country of 25 million people is currently 663. And we're battling it all down the east coast with varying degrees of lockdown. Victoria has the worst of it right now. That's what we've been doing.

> Again, not sure about Australia, but in America, the right to peacefully assemble and to protest the government are foundational.

Even in America I'm sure these things can change temporarily during a state of emergency. There sure as fuck were a bunch of restrictions on people's civil liberties after Hurricane Katrina, I seem to recall people not being allowed to move freely around New Orleans to assemble and/or protest at will.

Victoria has a state of emergency declared that will likely be extended until transmission numbers are in the single digits per day. Yes we do regard this "100s of thousands" of potential deaths as an emergency. Letting it rip is not an option.

If we beat back outbreaks where they occur by applying the hammer, then we do the dance of other control measures until the hammer is needed again we can indeed keep this up indefinitely. But it won't take forever, there's many different aspects of the situation in which improvement is coming... vaccines, better treatment protocols, better ways to shield the vulnerable, changes to aged care procedures etc. Yes the economy is gonna suck but I doubt anywhere is being spared that no matter what path they take... right now a bunch of major Indian call centres are down, that's screwing everyone over no matter what they decided to do with their own lockdowns.

[–]SkookumTreeThe Hock provideth. 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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This is what Australia's curve looks like right now. Wrestling a tiger to the ground... again. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/australia/

Also somewhat of concern is the fact we're engaged in a bit of posturing and trade conflict with China right now and they are notorious for their investment in waging e-conflict of various sorts. If someone is deliberately sabotaging the pandemic efforts, we need to take at least a cursory look at who it is and who has been talking them into it. Y'know... in case it is local idiots and we can shut them down... or in case it is organised attack from outside and we gotta warn the world.

For people who own so many nukes in order to feel a bit safer, the USA sure is casual about the potential of outside forces to natter in the ears of the stupidest of their number until suddenly covid control measures become impossible.

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Great then he can go chasing around 20-year-olds for the next 20 years. If he wants children and a family with a decent woman and not a psycho he is going to have to equally invest. People get older. Women have to think about the future because we don’t have as many childbearing years. You act like it’s a bad thing that women are looking out for utility that a man provides but this girl seems to actually love this guy for who he is. I don’t see how she isn’t. She also wants to set both of them up to be in a good position to start a family. If that’s not what he wants anytime soon then it’s not a fit and he should let her go. And he should not just keep fucking her casually because that is the absolute worst thing that he can do. He needs to drop her completely.

SMFH that you men can’t seem to grasp that women absolutely do love you and want to invest in you and that it’s a fucking bad thing that they want you to father their children and that they consider you are a responsible human being. It’s like you’re all stuck at age 16 when the bad boy jock drug dealer fuck the chick that you were simping for.

These are the things I really dislike about RP. Use it to develop a mission, build yourself physically, get lots of success with women, but at some point understand that AWALT and stop shitting on us for having a drive to propagate the human race

[–] SeemedGood Red Pill Man 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

If that’s not what he wants anytime soon then it’s not a fit and he should let her go. And he should not just keep fucking her casually because that is the absolute worst thing that he can do. He needs to drop her completely.

Which is exactly what a senior EC said. Still her decision to keep fucking or not is hers.

you men can’t seem to grasp that women absolutely do love you and want to invest in you

One never actually loves the objects in which one invests. Rather, one simply really appreciates the expected utility from the object - thus the “investment” in it.

I invest in assets and businesses. My wife is neither. I am with her because I appreciate who she is as a human being so much so that I wanted to merge with her (both physically and metaphysically). As an object in which to “invest,” she wasn’t a great deal, nor is any woman. You are far more trouble than you’re really worth on a net utility basis.

stop shitting on us for having a drive to propagate the human race

Trust me, we really appreciate that drive. What we don’t appreciate is your dualistic strategic approach to fulfilling that drive. But it is what it is and we just have to adapt to that dualistic (and dichotomous) strategy, thus RP philosophy.

[–] [deleted] 1 point 2 points 3 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–] SeemedGood Red Pill Man 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

This is so beyond solipsistic.

How so?

How does this girl not feel the same about the guy as you do about your wife?

At no point did I (or have I) ever felt the need or desire to “invest” in my wife in order to extract a return. Thus, I never had a need to “know where our relationship was going.” At one point, when I felt as though I was becoming too emotionally attached to her for a healthy casual relationship, I told her as much and sought to end the relationship.

She likes him so much that she’s willing to forgo an official title.

That she is a patient investor does not mean that she isn’t investing. Rather it just means that she is doing so patiently. The fact that she wants to know “where things are going” signals her state of being an investor who is seeking a return. This is essentially an attempt to get a better handle on her expected return and re-evaluate whether or not she should keep investing in expectation of a return of utility. All of which, of course, implies that she is not in the relationship for its own sake, but rather for the express purpose of achieving some other goal.

For LTRs, we want women who want to merge themsleves with us for the sake of doing so regardless of what the future may hold (marriage or no, kids or no, etc), not because they are looking to satisfy some generic set of their own desires and we are the best available tool for the fulfillment of that purpose.

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Hypergamy is the drive to mate with someone one considers better than one’s self.

The sidebar says: "The instinctual urge for women to seek out the best alpha available. This is marked by maximizing rejection (therefore women are the selective gender). A woman will vet her alpha through various shit tests to ensure his "health" on the alpha scale. She is conditioned to recognize a declining alpha, as hypergamy also tends to continue seeking out higher status males even while with an alpha male. Shit tests allow her to prepare herself for eventually leaving when a new higher status male is found. If the male fails shit tests to a great enough degree, it will effect her feelings for him. He will effectively lower his sexual market value in her eyes. This will enable her to jump to the next male with ease and little remorse.

Says nothing about "better than her."

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Dude.

If you're uncertain about her this early on, do the right thing and move on. The broad is 30. If you're not planning on knocking her up, pass her along to someone who is willing to do the job.

What you don't want to do, if you like her at all as a person, is run the clock down on her fertility, and THEN decide that your gut was right all along, and then dump her at 33, which will then traumatize her for about a year or two.

You're 30, make six figures, and are dating as young as 19. Keep dating then, if you are uncertain about her, until you meet a woman who you DO feel some certainty towards.

So, this was the response from an EC. I think it's completely fucking fair.

Your words:

Not that they suddenly have the magic upper hand

Stable men who want families absolutely have the upper hand.

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At the time, Gibson Island was not the wealthiest zip code in the US. Don’t know if it is now.

But that does not mean that women as a group got together and voted for that price point, which is how you’re making it seem.

...because that’s exactly how it is. In free markets (which this pretty much is) each individual consumer of a good or service quite literally votes on the price and quality of the services which the market provides by choosing to purchase them or not. The result of the collective votes creates the market price and quality. It literally couldn’t be more democratic.

In actuality, when you’re done with $250 highlights and $150 lowlights, plus another $30 or $40 for toning, an extra $100 for a cut seems a lot more reasonable than if you had just walked into a salon off the street.

All of which is voluntarily chosen by individuals providing the services and the women consuming them.

No sexism to be found anywhere.

[–] SmurfESmurferson Stacy’s Post-Wall Mom 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

You severely underestimate things like marketing and reputation. Even with that aside, in a free market, good work is associated with a higher price point. Great work even higher

Some people are fine with mediocre work, and pay cheaper prices. If that works for them, good for them. Other people want higher quality, and pay more

The issue - which is really not an issue, so I’m not sure why you insist on starting a fight over something that I just thought was interesting to note - is that it takes more investment on the part of the stylist to cut men’s hair, yet (in many cases) they actually lose money over it. Which is why a lot of women’s salons refuse to take male clients (even little boys)

On every level - from women being charged more the men having less choice, to the providers having to decide if they can lose more money by turning away men vs accepting them - there are very clear structural sexism issues

TL;DR - prices and availability of services should be based education and experience. However, that’s not how the real world works, like any other area of life

It is what it is, it’s not worth getting your panties in a twist, dude. Just interesting to note

[–] SeemedGood Red Pill Man 2 points 3 points 4 points 5 years ago * (10 children) | Copy Link

You severely underestimate things like marketing and reputation.

Neither of which are coercive and both of which reflect individuals’ independent orders of preference which in turn affect their willingness to pay for a given product or service voluntarily.

On every level - from women being charged more the men having less choice, to the providers having to decide if they can lose more money by turning away men vs accepting them - there are very clear structural sexism issues

This is why I take issue. The idea of “structural sexism” in a free market in which both men and women are making their own free choices about which products and services to consume is a clown show.

Edit: There is nothing preventing you from building a business which charges women much less and/or offers more services to men if there is actually some mysterious “structural sexism” corrupting the market. Show me a good legitimate business plan which seeks to disrupt this “structural sexism” (and thereby earn fantastic profits) and I’ll raise the capital you need to make it happen.

[–] [deleted] 2 points 3 points 4 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

A woman can go to a barber shop and get her hair cut for about the same rate. i used to go to one for simple cuts because I have straight fine hair that doesn't do well w layers so its a 10 minute trim. As smurf mentioned, its the color services, and there is a huge difference in professional quality vs what you get at the drugstore. And the cost to the stylist or salon reflects that. Stylists also make their big money doing hairstyles for major events like weddings, photoshoots etc...that takes some serious skill and time.

And there ARE businesses which charge less, ever heard of Supercuts or Visible Changes? I'm glad your wife has great hair, but usually bad hair quality doesn't have to do with putting shit in it. Its genetic, and long, thick lustrous but not out of control hair is just not naturally attainable for some of us, another thing men don't realize.

[–] SeemedGood Red Pill Man 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–] SmurfESmurferson Stacy’s Post-Wall Mom 1 point 2 points 3 points 5 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

The idea of “structural sexism” in a free market

Hold up a second. You really, truly don’t believe that the socialization and expectations of the different genders plays into things? Like at all, whatsoever?

You really believe that men refuse to wear skirts because they just don’t want to? Or that women love to dump insane amounts of cash on their hair just because?

Of course there are structural issues, but I think you have me confused - I was recognizing and acknowledging its existence, not complaining.

FFS, man, I make my living selling high end products to high end salons and spas in one of the richest, most well known counties in this country (retail and professional products). Bring on all of the structural sexism, I make bank off it

I’ve been in the corporate beauty industry since 2001 (yes, I’m Olde). I’ve made my peace with the fact that I’m oppressing my own gender for personal gain, lol

[–] SeemedGood Red Pill Man 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

You really, truly don’t believe that the socialization and expectations of the different genders plays into things? Like at all, whatsoever?

Of course it does. But those are their free choices. If women don’t want to pay your vig, they don’t have to do so. My wife doesn’t, never has, and she has ridiculously good looking hair (in part because she didn’t put a bunch of crap in it for most of her life).

If anything is sexist in this whole abortion of a line of thinking it’s that women aren’t somehow entirely responsible for this market condition because they are (apparently) unable to make informed free choices about how much they want to spend on their hair care.

It reminds me of the argument that we black people are somehow less capable of obtaining official state IDs than white people and therefore requiring such at the polls amounts to “structural racism.” It’s inane.

[–] SmurfESmurferson Stacy’s Post-Wall Mom 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Again, it’s “charge what the market will bear.”

I can ask for a free haircut, but I’m not getting it. And because I have certain standards in my industry, I can’t get away with it (this industry is unique in that our appearance is part of our job, so things like requiring makeup and certain hair styles is legal)

So, no, I disagree that it’s a free choice the way you’re describing. Certain expectations and personal standards are in play

This is all one big hypothetical conversation anyhow. I like to know the big picture, so i can better work the system. In my case, a client who I trust comes to my house and does my hair - cut, color, blowout, the whole shebang - for $100 in cash, off the books. I tip her well on top of that, to make it worth her while

Outside of work, I haven’t stepped foot in a salon since about 2010

[–] SeemedGood Red Pill Man 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–] SmurfESmurferson Stacy’s Post-Wall Mom 2 points 3 points 4 points 5 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

OK, now I know you’re full of crap

I was married to a hedge funder for more than a decade. A well known fund, not some fly by night Utah thing, and he certainly wasn’t back office

No, the women in the office are not held to the same standard that I, as someone in the actual corporate beauty industry, am held to. Her employer is not legally allowed to require her to wear makeup, for example. And i-banks are nowhere near as cut throat as hedge funds

I live in Trophy Wifesville, and no SAHM is getting a $40 haircut (assuming they aren’t taking a cheat, the way I do). IPL, Botox, injections, The Mommy Job - $500 once every 8 weeks for hair is nothing compared to that upkeep. Hell, it’s less expensive than an Equinox membership

Hell, I’m a marathon runner who has her hair done in her own house, and I have a reputation for being fairly low maintenance

Free choice isn’t BS, but it’s not the story you’re trying to sell here

[–] SeemedGood Red Pill Man 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago * (2 children) | Copy Link

A well known fund, not some fly by night Utah thing, and he certainly wasn’t back office

If he was fairly senior and traded fixed-income or fixed income derivatives, I probably know him.

No, the women in the office are not held to the same standard that I, as someone in the actual corporate beauty industry, am held to. Her employer is not legally allowed to require her to wear makeup, for example. And i-banks are nowhere near as cut throat as hedge funds

Then you know well that the hedge fund culture is quite different from the I-banking culture, because the hedge fund culture comes from the trading floor, which happens to be my background, and was always the significantly less patrician, more egalitarian, “bootstraps” oriented, and a far less formal envioronment, than the towers.

It is because of hedge funds that we got to stop having to wear suits and ties on the trading floors back in the early 2000s. Heck some of my biggest hedge fund clients regularly wore jeans, t-shirts, and flip-flops into the office, and I loved it. Not so much in investment banking. Totally different culture. And maybe you’re not really aware of that distinction? I left my last I-banking job in 2009 because it was too stifling for a guy who had spent his career on a trading floor and we were still fully suited up every day in the office .

I live in Trophy Wifesville, and no SAHM is getting a $40 haircut (assuming they aren’t taking a cheat, the way I do). IPL, Botox, injections, The Mommy Job - $500 once every 8 weeks for hair is nothing compared to that upkeep. Hell, it’s less expensive than an Equinox membership

For “new” hedge fund money on the North Shore (but not Locust Valley) and in Riverside, Cos Cob, and parts of Westport, yes I agree.

But we would never have lived on the North Shore or the Upper Upper East Side (Greenwich), or, God forbid, NJ.

not some fly by night Utah thing,

And BTW, there is nothing better than having your own office somewhere where you can hit your untouched pow stashes in the afternoon! It’s way better than driving home from Stamford to wherever the boring fuck at the end of the day. My kids skied 65 days last year and I did 25 (with the early Covid-19 shutdown while still recovering from a bad tib-fib fracture from the prior season). Even better, my partner (and home office) is in Zürich. The skiing around there is pretty good too.

[–] SmurfESmurferson Stacy’s Post-Wall Mom 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I probably know him

You might, who knows

maybe you’re aware of that distinction?

Yes, I am very aware of it

It doesn’t change the fact that the i-bank side needs the hedge funds, and has to sell to them. People pander to hedge founders (I mean, call me when Tesla just stops by unannounced with a few cars for your employees to test drive/buy on the spot)

Ultimately, these guys get used to being pandered to. They’re hiring people they feel comfortable around, which are smart men and hot women. You’re right that i-banks are more formal, which is why the informality of hedge funds bled into their hiring practices. I’m not sure why you think claiming that investment banks are conservative is going to help your argument that women are somehow not hired for hotness reasons in hedge funds

Various geographical stuff

Ok, and?

[–] SeemedGood Red Pill Man 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It doesn’t change the fact that the i-bank side needs the hedge funds, and has to sell to them.

Not really. To the ones who have some PE-like functions attached, yes, kind of. But even in-house there are stark divisions. Traders are just really different than I-bankers. I did both, much of my friend group from high school on (and their families) were either in one business or another, and even my home was a house divided between those cultures.

Fortress was one of my clients at a pretty senior level and yeah we banked them from both the floor (me) and the tower, but the cultures were pretty distinct and I had to deal with that at the very political level internally to the banks for which I worked - and the I-bankers were dicks. I once had a banker straight-up steal $9mm in fees from my team on a deal he had fuck all to do with after he tried to take $20mm for his group, but I had to suck it up - it cost me $1.2mm personally. Fuckers.

Any way, I’m about a bottle and a half in and rambling about the old days, but I never said that hedge funds didn’t hire for hotness, they definitely did, and so did we.

I just said that the standard is really different than that for a woman I-banker (like my wife) who was trying to get taken seriously because the cultures are really different. A woman I-banker is expected to look perfectly coiffed and made up in bespoke couture (as are the men). Women at hedge funds just have to young and hot and it really doesn’t matter how their hair looks or what clothes they wear as long as they’re suggestive. My tailor was never happier than the years in which I was on the I-banking side (which I have told my children were the worst of my working life).

[–] [deleted] 1 point 2 points 3 points 5 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

r/wgtow is only for priviliged women.

With a precovid rental cost of $3700 a month or $44000 a year in the bay area https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2019/03/05/median-1-bedroom-rent-sf-3690-month-zumper/

That means a woman would realistically need to earn at least 88k to be independent in the bay area. That puts her in the 83rd percentile salary wise. https://dqydj.com/average-median-top-individual-income-percentiles/

Any effective women's liberation movement would need to focus on buying up land https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Womyn%27s_land or on having women's communes to allow low income members to join in.

I would therfore contest that women's liberation and feminism in general is directly contingent on underlying economic conditions

As such despite the rise in Pinkpill/Blackpillfeminism conciousness, Gen Z will see less overt feminism than millenials simply because people cant afford to be independent not because of any lack of desire.

[–] relish5k Working Tradwife (woman) 1 point 2 points 3 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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My principle point is that independence requires financial independence, which is harder now than it would have been pre 2008 ie Millienials and Gen X.

If you look at other metrics like college debt and healthcare costs which have greatly outpaced salaries, but the most important one is rental costs.

Their is some irony that the most feminist most progressive cities ie NYC, DC, Bay Area, actually make it the hardest to be a feminist due to economic conditions.

It would be far easier to be a feminist in a red state like Oklahoma or Nebraska as salaries to property prices are much more in line.

"need to make a lot of money, and they will, by getting college degrees and best jobs they can." As I have shown only the top 17% of earners can be independent in a place like SF, and many high earners will be men in silicon valley.

" value of their vaginas and know how to build social capital because they spend most of their time on social media. " - Disagree strongly with this.

The number of marriageable men is at a record low for one reason or another not least the economic demise of modern men.

As for other methods like onlyfans, well that only works if you are Bella Thorne, most women are not making P's let alone getting the bag.

In any case neither of these methods are empowering or independent.

[–] geyges 🐇 1 point 2 points 3 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–] [deleted] 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

No, judging by pinkpill/blackpillfeminism it seems that women are becoming more radical, although to what extent they represent the views of an average college educated women I do not know.

I meant more that a more moderate WGTOW feminism would be harder to achieve.

In addition amongst normie women there would be a greater desire to get a husband (ATM) due to economic circumstances so TRP which advocates sleeping around may need to be more careful.

If you mean full on seperatists or radical lesbians https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radical_lesbianism then yes they were a minority.

However I read somewhere https://nypost.com/2019/04/05/new-yorkers-apparently-are-not-marriage-material-study/

that apparently 19% of women over the age of 65 have never married in manhattan, I would count them as separatists.

I therfore argue that whilst more than 19% of gen Z's may want to be like these women, they will be unable due to economic circusmstances

ie feminism is a economic privilige.

[–] selective-autism 1 point 2 points 3 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–] [deleted] 1 point 2 points 3 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Unless they are going to inherit the property, and even then they would still be responsible for paying bills and property taxes, they would need to become financially independent at some point.

Living with families only delays the neccessity to become independent. If however you mean an extended family like in eastern regions where you could live with cousins etc, then you could follow that life path indefinitely.

I still contest that that is a question of privilige as most Americans are expected to be "independent," slaving away at a job to give over 40k to a landlord rather than forming group based solutions to economic conditions.

I imagine the number of women who could follow the extended family model to be limited, meaning most will have to seek shared living arrangemnts with other women.

I have never really heard of neet women as a concept, almost all hikkos and chan board types are men.

I guess you could include stay at a home partner or sugar relationship as NEET, but that it neither independent nor empowering.

I have to dispute your concept of MGTOW/incel as manchildren.

Incel just means you cant get laid and MGTOW as understood by most is a refusal to enter into long term cohabitating relationships, neither of which means you are a failure in other regards.

This of course is unless you mean the tradcon definition of failure which is not having a wife and siring children indpendent of any other factors.

I will however contest that there is some overlap between NEET's and incel culture.

However MGTOW is predominately divorced guys.

The r/mgtow sub seems to be mostly about complaining about women and for really stupid reasons, there is relatively little about living an independent life.

r/MGTOW2 far better represents the goals and aspirations of MGTOW.

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Oh, you're the same dude who told me that.

As I've said, we aren't sure about kids. We're both from big (extended) families, so we've experienced a fair share of baby sitting and living with newborns.

Anyway, we're working now on changing our career fields, so we'd have higher income and an opportunity to work from home if needed. We'll have kids only if/when we have good savings. Ideally one would take a paternity/maternity leave and another would transfer to working from home probably with less working hours as well, so both would have enough time to spend with the child. A year or two shouldn't be a problem, after that or even earlier we both would be able to work part time/from home. I have nothing against good kindergartens as well.

Plus, we're from the minority and getting help from grandparents is widespread and accepted. Most my cousins had their mothers living with them for a first month-years and it made everything far easier.

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Super off topic, but any thoughts here about the Kyle Rittenhouse situation? As soon as I saw his interview with McGinnis prior to the shootings and he claimed to be an EMT I realized I know this kid; not personally, of course, but this kid is found at every small town firehouse and emergency squad in America: the kinda pudgy, kinda soft, super earnest white boy who sat in a firetruck or a police cruiser at a parade once when he was 4 and became one of those rare people who actually know who they want to be when they grow up.

IME this kind of kid is not a virulent anti-BLM racist the way I have seen him painted elsewhere on this site, even tho the two dudes he killed were also white and apparent scumbags.

Joseph Rosenbaum in particular had two priors for sexual misconduct with a minor and was caught on video prior to the shooting instigating and making physical contact with counter-protestors (also taunting them by literally saying 'shoot me ni**a') and Huber, the other guy, had an extensive record as well (but nothing pedo-esque).

Either way Rittenhouse has now caught about 5 charges himself, including two for first degree murder, will be interesting to see how it plays out. I do find it odd that this guy Rosenbaum and Jacob Blake both got caught up with law enforcement due to child sex abuse. Either there's something fucky with the water supply in Wisconsin or pedos are one of those things that are way more common than you would think just living a normal life. I've never met any (that I know of) or ever really hear about them at all except in these national news stories where it always seems to be lurking as a pervasive undercurrent to all the unrest and societal disorder.

[–] idiotincharge 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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I think his mom who dropped him off in a chaotic protest area with a rifle should be charged with child endangerment.

As for Kyle, I tend to agree. I see libtard FB friends sharing things about how "he showed up with the intent to kill protesters" I think that is obviously false.

I also think that, once again, these outrage fanatics have ruined their case by charging him with 1st degree murder. That will never fucking stick. For crying out loud there is clear video of him getting attacked in the street with a skateboard before shooting the 2nd guy.

Overall just a retarded situation. People who attack others at protests don't have my respect, and neither do gung ho 17 year olds who think they're badass civil protectors for coming to a highly charged up protest with a rifle. Good riddance to all these fuck heads. They should've been working or something else productive.

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Their prior criminal records are relevant because they provide context for their violent actions, as well as speaking to the sort of people emboldened by the unrest--people with past negative encounters with law enforcement.

That Rittenhouse didn't know about their records is irrelevant, since that isn't why he shot them.

Also, the incident is not being touted as some kind of extra-judicial execution, but defended as an instance of self-defence. By watching the various videos, it's apparent that Rittenhouse did not fire his weapon first, that he was charged and physically assaulted by the two men he killed and also charged by the third man he shot, who was likewise armed with an illegal gun. Not to mention that rioters were caught on video trying to push a flaming dumpster into the establishment Rittenhouse was posted at.

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Watch this video

There is clear footage of rioters setting a dumpster on fire and attempting to push it into the car dealership that Rittenhouse was posting up at, before it gets put out by someone running up with fire extinguisher. There is also clear video of Rittenhouse with a fire-extinguisher earlier in the time line, although it's not known for certain yet that Kyle was the one to definitively put it out. Still, its a reasonable assumption that Rittenhouse was acting defensively of the business against blatantly violent and escalating 'protests'

Obviously I agree that open carrying an assault rifle into public, particularly into a racially charged protest, is pretty dumb. That being said more and more info (and, more importantly, video) is coming out that's giving us a clearer idea of what transpired.

The two men who died charged Rittenhouse, and sealed their fate as much as Rittenhouse did by bringing a weapon into an unstable situation. But to call him a psycho is just disingenuous; misguided and naive, sure. Those men weren't killed in cold blood, but self defense.

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My best friend is having an oopsies COVID baby. This gf is first generation American, with her family from a country that I’ve seen mentioned by plenty of guys on PPD. Always in the context of going there to search for a traditional forever gf

Her family sounds like a nightmare, by American standards. They expect a shotgun wedding (I’m half expecting the dad to greet my friend at the door with a gun, that’s how hard they’re pressuring them). They expect part of his paycheck, to live with them, etc.

Guys, the dream of a traditional forever gf from some third world shithole? It’s laughably false - you’re just swapping one cultural headache for a different one

EDIT - And I adore the gf. She’s the smartest chick he’s ever dated, she has a wickedly funny sense of humor, she’s gorgeous, and she’s professionally successful. I mean, hell, I’d probably be tempted to date her if she asked

But her family’s culture is still problematic as hell

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I met my ex-husband at 19, and (due to living states away from each other) we stayed platonic but I had a crush. Multiple of my ex-bfs were jealous of him, without ever meeting him

Flash forward 10 years, and we got married. We were happy for quite a few years, then his alcohol use got out of hand/various situations associated with that. Everything changed, including the way I saw him and respected him (in other words, I lost all admiration and respect, and developed hostility)

We divorced (well, thanks to COVID, it’s in the running for Longest Divorce Ever - the courts aren’t open, and they’re only doing Zoom hearings for cases with contested child custody/domestic violence/etc). Things have calmed down on both of our ends, and we’re friendly and amicable at this point, there aren’t really hard feelings - just some sadness, which is to be expected

We both want the divorce finalized ASAP. We’ll probably always stay friends on some level, but any idea of us romantically has been thoroughly and utterly squashed. I will never be able to see him like that again

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Before organised religion, cultures thrived on conquest through warfare and so females were limited in numbers. If there was a need for increasing numbers of male newborns, female newborns were killed.

Men constituted the majority of a tribal population and therefore, only a minority of them would get a wife and become fathers. Women had an obligation to bear children but if they refused to get married (necessary for having children) they would be pressured by leaders to reconsider up until they reached the age of 30 years. At this age, it was believed that virginal women had developed superpowers, so they posed a danger to the culture. They were suspected of renegade behaviour. The women rejected their culture by refusing to marry so they lacked respectability. Combined with their superpowers, it was feared they would curse out of spite so they were sent into exile and in the event of tribal misfortune, would be persecuted and killed.

Christianity was adopted and tribal killing became unlawful. Virgin women unwilling to get married were then expected to join a sisterhood and use their spiritual power for deity worship and healing the sick and needy in hospitals as nurses.

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If rape was actually punished, that would be a good argument. It is not.

It's punished when proven that a rape did happen, so I don't know what you're talking about.

Now, I understand why it’s hard to punish it, but that basically means you’re on your own to protect yourself, ergo, suspicion and paranoia

Not really? There are physical signs that someone was raped, unless they were drugged or something, which doesn't happen all that commonly either. Suspicion and paranoia of every man walking down the street isn't exactly reasonable.

Additionally, victim blaming is a thing, not just for rape

I don't think people can be called "victims" if they do something with known consequences and it happens. There's really not a lot of variables to expect with having sex. You either become pregnant or you don't.

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I used to think like that too, until I have been touched without consent in full daylight and no one did anything.

Right. I'm sure all men think that women being out to get them happens less until it happens to them and then suddenly every woman is a sneaky witch looking to knife them in the back and run off with their money when they have their back turned, too. It functions the same way and people who believe things like that are paranoid. Suddenly every sparse news story of it happening is "PROOF THAT IT'S TRUE AND I'M NOT CRAZY!!!!"

Until a girl next to me, in the bus, was being gropped and I was the only one saying anything...the man only stopped after I raised my voice asking what was he doing. People looked at me as if I was mad.

Well yeah, they probably didn't know, didn't care, or both. I'm betting that it was probably the first, and then the second because unless people can see someone doing something, a claim like that is basically like saying there's a ghost on the bus. Doling out punishment based on the claim without evidence is why #BelieveAllWomen is not good advice because then it turns into "The Boy Who Cried Wolf" and women start using it to rally a mob to attack whoever they want.

Anyway, paranoia no es bueno.

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And aren't those more or less corelated? Rape doesn't happen where there is no violence.

Rape happens if she didn't get a text the next day. Sometimes it only seems to happen unless a monetary transaction takes place. Sometimes it's just a straight up lie.

Women accept non-consensual sex because of all that fear of violence. Apparently violence is worse than unwanted sex. They are sometimes correlated, but in this day and age in the west, the narrative is rapists pop out of the bushes and attack a stranger. That's far less than how it really happens and who it's with. It's the same narrative so that parents won't admit they're the majority of pedophiles and can blame a creepy guy in a van with candy.

Do you somehow get off from being redundantly dramatic or exaggerating?

Just want to balance the scales, so some female privilege doesn't creep in like it always does. Wouldn't want things to not be equal and fulfill the feminist dream.

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You would have to define what you mean by a good amount of money.

In the UK, you could have a well paid job, but if you live in London then your standard of living won't necessarily be very good.

I've got a nice little house in a beautiful part of the country, and I've got way more savings than most people, all of which is almost impossible to achieve in London. But I'm not wealthy, and certainly there would be many people in London in particular who earn and have earned more than me. But their standard of living isn't necessarily particularly good.

In Britain, everything comes down to whether or not you've got a house. If you don't have a house then you'll be a second-class citizen, at best. One of the women who used to clean my flat when I lived in Cheshire, her grandmother gave her a house. I'm not really entirely sure why. But she would never have been able to afford this in a million years; she had a part-time cleaning job and a part-time bar job. Her house must have been worth at least £400K. Maybe more, I don't know how big it was.

Anyway, if I have a good amount of money, in answer to your questions...

I'm lucky that I enjoy my work, and I get to work from home, so that makes life a lot easier. However, I always make time every day for some leisure activities, and I begin every day by taking my dog for a walk in the hills.

I'm not married. I suppose I have a sort of business; I'm not employed anyway. This doesn't affect my free time at all, I ensure that I have plenty of free time, and I think that having a job is a much greater drain on your time than working for yourself.

I know that I'm fortunate to be in the position I'm in and doing what I do, and I do work hard, but I make it a priority to enjoy every day, and you can't enjoy every day if all you ever do is work. Life passes you by. Then you die.

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Projection vs. Displacement

AutoModerator · 2020-08-30T18:07:02+00:00

This weekly thread is designed to be a place for all the funny discussions on PPD. Feel free to post off-topic questions, information, points-of-view, etc......

Many times in conversations I see people saying someone is "projecting" or "displacing" something when it comes to demonstrating why various genders act like fools. At the very least use them correctly. In a concession to women, since I'm constantly accused of misogyny, I do notice this more often in men than women just in observations of debates. Probably because men are more into logical debates and women are more geared toward emotional debates when it comes to how they're structured.

Sometimes they're used correctly, and sometimes not. You also find it all over feminism, but it consumed less monitor ink to just say they hate men and lie all the time, which is less expensive but surprisingly accurate.

Projection and displacement are ways human beings relieve psychological stress. Psychological stress and pain, not just flipping genders or whatever.

Projection is when you push a bad event onto a weaker person because you cannot safely react to the original cause. You project the issues of one party onto another party.

Displacement is when you shift anger onto someone else to protect yourself psychologically as you can't do it to the real cause.

Projection is when the subject changes.
Displacement is when the object changes.

As an example, my post makes you mad because you're a man hating feminist, so you go home and beat your husband.

That's displacement.

You can't hurt me, so you displace your anger, and hurt someone else that is in a weaker position since you're unable to hurt me and it causes you psychological stress that you can't, the object of your anger changes to someone or something else.

The object of your anger is the one you enact revenge on since I'm untouchable.

If an #AllMenAreTrash man made a post that got a thousand downvotes, he'd go home and tell the wife, "DangZagnut got a thousand downvotes what a loser that deeply closeted homosexual is".

That's Projection.

You're changing the subject to psychologically defend yourself and project it on to other people. You took something where you were bad, and projected it on to some other actor. You might claim a position or action a woman did via gaslighting to relieve stress, or pick on me, since I'm easy to pick on. There's overt and subtle ways to do it.

The subject of your stress is who you accuse.

“Because I'm the hero PPD deserves, but not the one it needs right now. So you'll hurt me. Because I can take it. Because I'm not your hero. I'm just a MGTOW to blame."

So blame away. You projecting assholes.

They're both psychological defense mechanisms. No different than a child blaming why the lamp is broken on the dog rather than admitting they were horsing around and broke it.

That's why children blame things on the dog. Why isn't your homework done? Dog ate it. Why is the lamp broke? "The dog did it. While throwing a soccer ball around in the living room, mom" Projection and displacement are used all the time in discussions, and it is best to use them in the right context. Projection is used all the time in discussions, but not used correctly. Many times people say it but mean displacement, or they associate it with with non-negative psychological things. It doesn't mean "She has money so she only values those with money". That's not precisely the same thing.

It's a defense mechanism to relieve psychological stress. Not really just some word play.

As another example to show so I can keep pretending I'm not a misogynist, when the woman shows up to work and has a black eye, she claims she "fell down the stairs", she's projecting the psychologically painful thing not on the husband beating her, but on the stairs as being the cause of the event as to not blame the husband. Projection doesn't have to be just something that you did, it can be something someone else did, all to relieve psychological stress.

"He got laid off and is under a lot of stress so I got slapped, it's not his fault, times are tough". Projection to relieve psychological stress by blaming the layoff and not the husband, as employment and handling stress is less psychologically painful than admitting your husband is a wife beater. Meanwhile, the husband is displacing his anger by taking it out on her because he is too pussy to go shoot up the company that fired him so he chooses a softer target.

Reminder: Men, do not beat your wives unless you are wearing an official undershirt to do it properly.

Please remember #AllMenAreRapistsAndAbusers and post that hashtag regularly. Displace your anger. Let the hate flow through you. It saves men's lives when you stay away from them out of fear and propaganda.

source: shallow and pedantic dumb shit that wasted time and money on a psych degree.

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Like, I don't care? Maybe you're right.

Atleast you are honest. We ARE right.

Its just that nobody will be there to tell you, "I told you so" when you regret about the state of things in future.

Maybe I would be happy and living in ignorant bliss but do you actually think that makes it worth it?

Yep. That's what most older women in happy marriages or relationships say. Sure, they went through turbulent times for months or years at a time, but in the end they do claim its all worth it.

You think I value happiness more than pride?

Maybe not in the present moment. But happiness is something of a universal value we all want.

I don't get why you are pitting different values with each other here.

I value happiness AND pride too. why can't you do the same? Why is it an either or for you?

Is it because you have enough self awareness to realize how much truthful TRP is and yet you can't get yourself to agree with us?

In other words, its more of a you problem than anything.

I'd far rather end up alone or with someone I'm not attracted to, than a man I'm attracted to that "games" me

Please don't do that and ruin another man. We don't need women using other men as props for their life. Attraction is not a choice.

All you are doing is in your need to not deal with someone who plays game on you, you end up playing games to secure commitment with someone who you are not attracted with.

[–] Mimoxs 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It's not about turbulence, every marriage or relationship will have it's good times and bad times. You stick with the person out of love and end up stronger. That's true of normal marriages too. It's not the idea here.

I value happiness AND pride too. why can't you do the same? Why is it an either or for you?

It's inherently sacrificing pride to be dependent. It would be the same as me moving back in with my parents and mooching off of them.

Pride is tied to dignity and self respect. Of which there is none in trad wife lifestyle. Pride is recognizing your self worth, and what you deserve, it is tied to recognizing your own quality namely through your skills and accomplishments and other good qualities including personality.

I am proud of myself bc of what I do, what I'm capable of, what I am. There is nothing to take pride in that has any significant value in trad wife/RPW lifestyle. Your qualities in that lifestyle are.... being pretty, raising good kids, making food, being a maid, having sex well and allowing yourself to be treated as having the IQ of an animal. Congrats. The bare minimum of what a human being can do. That is what you have to be proud of. That would be like being proud of sitting on a couch all day playing video games.

Is it because you have enough self awareness to realize how much truthful TRP is and yet you can't get yourself to agree with us?

I acknowledge that psychological manipulation works on just about any human being? Why would I not? I hope you realize shit like "dread" or apathy works on literally anyone, even in platonic relationships. It's not gendered.

All you are doing is in your need to not deal with someone who plays game on you, you end up playing games to secure commitment with someone who you are not attracted with.

Which is worse than what trp does to women because....?

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For the tradcon lifestyle, I imagine it makes women happy. It's a blissful sort of happiness because it's a very childish lifestyle and is filled with the same carefree ignorant bliss children live with - minimal responsibility, no huge worries, all the important stuff it taken care of by someone else, you're fully dependent. I imagine it is blissfully happy. But I have too much self respect to allow that, in the same way that I have too much pride to just quit adult life and go back to living with my parents. I'm sure sitting in my parents house playing games all day being dependent on them is happy too. But it's pathetic, much like being a trad housewife.

The red pill stuff keeps women "excited", but likewise submitting to that is basically accepting having a husband who sees you as having the IQ of a dog.

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This is the distinction between contentment and happiness and the duality of the two and how they can oppose.

Happiness is chemical. Contentment is more psychological.

This lifestyle, if submitted to, allows you to live in ignorant bliss and never having to do a lot of hard work.

Do I enjoy customer service? Do I enjoy studying all day? Of course not. It's not fun. Would being a housewife and just cleaning a bit here and there and nothing else be way more enjoyable? Yeah. I'd be happy. Just like I'd be happy living with my parents.

When I'm at work, I'm miserable bc tbh I hate it. But. Even though I'm miserable, I'm content knowing that I'm supporting myself and working to full independence. I'd be much happier in my parents house playing video games. But I'd live with knowing how pathetic it is.

Does trp married lifestyle make women happy? Sure. It keeps them excited and gives regular dopamine boosts with validation. But those women, no matter how happy they are, have to live with knowing that they're submitting.

You can be miserable, and be content. You can be in pain even, and be content.

Even if I'm miserable, even if I'm unhappy, I have pride, and that's all that matters.

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Weekly Community Chat Megathread (30 August 2020)

Comments

2 clippers. Dead easy.

Projection vs. Displacement

Title	Weekly Community Chat Megathread (30 August 2020)
Author	AutoModerator
Upvotes	4
Comments	1243
Date	August 30, 2020 6:07 PM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/ijhaxp/weekly_community_chat_megathread_30_august_2020/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/weekly-community-chat-megathread-30-august-2020.172046 https://theredarchive.com/post/172046