"Oh. That's okay then".

[–]Daggerfall 18 points19 points20 points 9 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

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[–]WigglingCaboose 198 points199 points200 points 9 years ago (140 children) | Copy Link

[+]PaulMurrayCbr points 9 years ago* [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

"but it looks better" "but it's more hygenic" - EXACTLY THE SAME arguments that cultures that practise female genital mutilation use to justify that.

[–]Griever114 52 points53 points54 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]strayclown1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]CisWhiteMealWorm 3 points4 points5 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[+]DuckHorseDuck points 9 years ago [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

Check out /r/foreskin_restoration

[–]sneakpeekbot 3 points4 points5 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]CisWhiteMealWorm 3 points4 points5 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Cerxi 61 points62 points63 points 9 years ago (28 children) | Copy Link

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[–]ARedthorn 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]TreyWalker points 9 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

Is there current research to back those numbers?

[–]Griever114 27 points28 points29 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]ScaledDown 8 points9 points10 points 9 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]C4H8N8O81 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]ScaledDown1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]C4H8N8O81 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]ScaledDown2 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[+]DuckHorseDuck points 9 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

Women do sometimes FGM themselves, actually.

[–]C4H8N8O81 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]bruneo7 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]I_Have_A_Nightmare13 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]C4H8N8O8 8 points9 points10 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]ARedthorn 21 points22 points23 points 9 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

TL/DR- you lose 40% of the nerve endings in your penis, the thing that protects another 40% from overstimulation and keratinization, suffer permanent brain damage, and increase STD transmission over a 5-yr window, all to reduce STD transmission over a 1-yr window and prevent two treatable diseases that affect basically no one.

1- it contains 40% of the pleasure sensitive nerve tissue in the penis (another 40% in the glans, 20% spread out everywhere else). Most notably, this nerve tissue is also a specific kind- like that in your lips. Lightly scratch the back of your hand, then the palm of your hand, then your lips. Feel the difference? The foreskin's nerve endings are dominated by what you felt on your palm and lips.

2- it serves to protect the glans, same as the clitoral hood protects the clitoris, as both are susceptible to overstimulation and desensitization. The constant exposure of an easily overstimulated glans means many who undergo adult circumcision report increased sensitivity... at first. Desensitization happens slowly, so many don't notice, but it does happen. The glans keratinizes. I'll leave it to you to google it, but the glans is supposed to be smooth, shiny and moist looking... not pebbled and dry.

3- circumcision of infants might cause permanent brain damage, particularly to the regions of the brain associated with empathy, communication, and emotional processing. This is primarily because the infant brain is still forming and restructuring like crazy, super-sensitive to all the things, and a major traumatic experience like having 40% of your most sensitive organ cut off is kind of a big deal developmentally. Link More Links So Many Links

4- it may actually increase, not decrease, STD transmission rates. Studies in Africa have found reliably that men who get a circumcision are at roughly half the risk of getting HIV as those who don't get one. However, all those studies have a few things in common: First, the circumcised group are given condoms and sexual safety education. Second, the reduction is from 1.2% to 0.7% (relatively trivial). Third, rates were only reduced for the men, not their partners. The same studies that suggest men are less likely to catch HIV if circumcised also clearly state that women are more likely to catch it from circumcised men than intact ones. Fourth, those rates are measured after 12 months. This is key because after a circumcision, you can't have sex for several months... and it strikes me that not being able to have sex without incredible pain for several months probably reduces HIV risk.

Other studies on the same people, checking in after 3 or 5 years found that the circumcised group had similar or higher HIV rates than the uncircumcised group. Whoops.

5- while it does prevent chronic phimosis and reduce risk of penile cancer significantly, both are incredibly rare. Phimosis affects roughly 1 out of every 50,000 men, and other treatments exist. Penile cancer affects fewer than 1 out of every 500,000 men.

For comparison, breast cancer affects 1 out of every 5 women and 500 men... yet we would (rightfully) never suggest infant mastectomies.

[–]fadeathrowaway 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]ARedthorn 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Thinkmoreaboutit 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Thinkmoreaboutit 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]smitty5245 3 points4 points5 points 9 years ago* (15 children) | Copy Link

[–]Consilio_et_Animis 5 points6 points7 points 9 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

[–]toddiehoward -1 points0 points1 point 9 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

[–]revengeofthedirty47 4 points5 points6 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]toddiehoward -1 points0 points1 point 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]revengeofthedirty47 4 points5 points6 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]toddiehoward 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Consilio_et_Animis -1 points0 points1 point 9 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

any surgery

"surgery" LOL. What is "wrong" with his foreskin that requires "surgery"?? It's just child sex abuse.

it's not rape.

Try this experiment when you've got a minute: Grab a large paper-clip and un-bend it. Then pop outside to a busy shopping centre and scope-out a little girl a few days old. Grab her from her stroller and run off to the mens' toilet and lock yourself in a stall.

Then pull her diapers down, and take the sharp, straightened paper-clip and ram it in-between her external glans clitoris and her clitoral hood (the female foreskin). Scrape and push the wire all round to ensure you totally separate the hood from the glans. Like the male foreskin, this is naturally adhered to the glans, and only separates as the child grows older.

The little girl will most likely scream her head off, so just stuff some toilet paper in her mouth to keep her quiet.

When you have finished grab your mobile phone and call the police. When they arrive, hand yourself over.

If you don't get charged with rape, report back here with your PayPal address, and I'll send you $500 USD.

Deal?

[–]toddiehoward -2 points-1 points0 points 9 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]revengeofthedirty47 5 points6 points7 points 9 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]toddiehoward 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]revengeofthedirty475 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Consilio_et_Animis3 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]toddiehoward1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Consilio_et_Animis3 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]toddiehoward1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Oklawolf 33 points34 points35 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]AnotherDAM 18 points19 points20 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]Draggonzz 14 points15 points16 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]AnotherDAM 11 points12 points13 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

All you have to say is that, even if you think it looks better, it should be up to the person whose body is being altered to decide. We shouldn't be performing cosmetic surgery on unconsenting infants.

The point is that your suggestion has been repeatedly tried and it invariably fails. Your position asks the person to consider what they are doing to another human being (their child) and experience has demonstrated that women are (by and large) immune to this type of thinking.

My suggestion follows the "Paul Elam Technique" of getting in their face and making them think about their position and what they just said. "It looks better" is, at its core, a sexualization of an infant's penis. Make them face that and maybe, just maybe, they will see the true image in the mirrror you are holding up.

[–]FreedDrugsTinyGuns 5 points6 points7 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]DuckHorseDuck6 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]acesdragon97[🍰] -4 points-3 points-2 points 9 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]WigglingCaboose 6 points7 points8 points 9 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

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[–]WigglingCaboose 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[+]TheSuperSax points 9 years ago* [recovered] (12 children) | Copy Link

I don't give a damn about how it looks. Every single one of my male ancestors going back for millennia has been circumcised.

I don't plan to have any kids but if by some twist of fate I have a son he'll have a bris too.

[–]MenDeserveRights 9 points10 points11 points 9 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

[+]TheSuperSax points 9 years ago* [recovered] (10 children) | Copy Link

If he wants to stop he can, just like I can. I've lived without a foreskin for my whole life, as we have for generations. He won't be any worse for the wear.

[–]MenDeserveRights 7 points8 points9 points 9 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[+]TheSuperSax points 9 years ago* [recovered] (5 children) | Copy Link

He can do anything he wants when he's of age.

I'm not sure I understand your analogy regarding plumbing.

[–]MenDeserveRights 5 points6 points7 points 9 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[+]TheSuperSax points 9 years ago* [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link

What happens if he wants to continue in the tradition of his forebears, and, because of my not following the procedures, he can't?

No, I won't be party to it.

The comparison between indoor plumbing and circumcision is completely irrelevant. We made technological progress that allowed us to live in more salubrious conditions. There hasn't been some sort of evolutionary process changing the role of the foreskin in the body in the last few centuries.

[–]MenDeserveRights 3 points4 points5 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[+]TheSuperSax points 9 years ago* [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

Pretty sure the point is moot since I don't intend to have kids anyway...¯_(ツ)_/¯

[–]MenDeserveRights1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]knowedge 4 points5 points6 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[+]TheSuperSax points 9 years ago* [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

I'm circumcised and I certainly don't feel like a victim of genital mutilation. Don't think it's anywhere near as big an issue as everyone in this movement makes it out to be; and I agree entirely with a number of other issues.

[–]WigglingCaboose 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]zfighter181 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]Thinkmoreaboutit 6 points7 points8 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Hedhunta 11 points12 points13 points 9 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[+]DuckHorseDuck points 9 years ago [recovered] (4 children) | Copy Link

It's certainly not definitive proof of anything, but America consumes nearly half the Viagra on the planet and the Israeli army provides it to its soldiers.

[–]toddiehoward 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[+]DuckHorseDuck points 9 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

Dunno. The Defense Ministry declined to comment citing "privacy issues". Apparently they've used Cialis for altitude sickness in the past, so it's possible that it's totally unrelated to ED.

[–]toddiehoward 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Odz2427 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]-redditardation- 43 points44 points45 points 9 years ago (91 children) | Copy Link

[+]geocitiesuser points 9 years ago* [recovered] (90 children) | Copy Link

Differing opinions and all.

[–]thesquataholic 8 points9 points10 points 9 years ago (20 children) | Copy Link

[+]geocitiesuser points 9 years ago* [recovered] (19 children) | Copy Link

Cool, you can have an opinion, but in this regard, you are WRONG.

okay. Have you considered HAES? They have similar reactions to people to imply there are other opinions.

[–]thesquataholic 9 points10 points11 points 9 years ago (18 children) | Copy Link

[+]geocitiesuser points 9 years ago* [recovered] (17 children) | Copy Link

No, I'm comparing the cult of the foreskin to the cult of fat pig women. Very similar tactics used when anyone implies there may be differing opinions. It's really sad, because I'm all for MRA on most topics. It's just this one you all turn into a bunch of triggered weirdos and you're too busy being triggered to realize how ridiculous your behavior is. Basically HAES.

[–]thesquataholic 10 points11 points12 points 9 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

[+]geocitiesuser points 9 years ago* [recovered] (13 children) | Copy Link

your reading comprehension is really bad if that's what you got out of it.

[–]thesquataholic 6 points7 points8 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]revengeofthedirty47 3 points4 points5 points 9 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

[–]geocitiesuser -2 points-1 points0 points 9 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

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[–]geocitiesuser1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]geocitiesuser1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]geocitiesuser1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]ScaledDown 4 points5 points6 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]-redditardation- 41 points42 points43 points 9 years ago (59 children) | Copy Link

[+]geocitiesuser points 9 years ago* [recovered] (51 children) | Copy Link

Accuses people of disregarding his opinion

Counters by disregarding theirs.

[–]-redditardation- 15 points16 points17 points 9 years ago (50 children) | Copy Link

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[–]-redditardation-7 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]MemeticParadigm2 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Its not germane to the argument. We are talking about parents making a decision to have a proven health benefit preformed on their children.

It's actually completely germane to the argument.

When you are arguing with people about this, you should keep in mind that the general benefits of circumcision are simply not germane to the debate - only the benefits of infant circumcision relative to adult circumcision matter - because most people aren't arguing against circumcision in general, they are only arguing against infant circumcision.

Since the benefits related to STD transmission and rates of genital cancer don't generally materialize until significantly later in life, you can't really cite those as benefits of infant circumcision, because you'd get the same benefits from adult circumcision.

This is in stark contrast to something like vaccinations, where there are huge health benefits as soon as the child enters the public school system, i.e. major health benefits which can only be had by vaccinating when they are still children.

[–]Hamakua1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]ScaledDown 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]coachbradb -1 points0 points1 point 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

HAHA. So sorry that I have posted the studies done by these organizations a 100 times and people like you refuse to do your own research. I have provided evidence and cited them many times.

Perhaps you should get off the conspircy sites and do a little digging. They really are not hard to find. Here let me help you.l

Open browser>go to google>type Mayo clinic circumcision into search box>hit enter>click on the site.

No one is required to provide the same links and the same citations to every single person on the planet.

But depending on the style and type of paper what I have done could in fact be considered providing evidence. By pointing the reader to the proper information I have done all that I am required.

I see you had no post the guy who said that strong evidence exist that it does not. So your bias reveals you.

have a nice night in your moms basement.

[–]ScaledDown3 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]anonymous3182 3 points4 points5 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I looked at the AAP and found they do not recommend circumcision. "The American Academy of Pediatrics found the health benefits of newborn male circumcision outweigh the risks, but the benefits are not great enough to recommend universal newborn circumcision.".

I also looked at the Mayo clinic but unfortunately it has little information, it basically amounts to a FAQ page.

I prefer hard data and I've found the Canadian Paediatrics Society position paper has the numbers listed here http://www.cps.ca/documents/position/circumcision on table 1. NNT is number needed to treat, ie the number of circumcisions needed to prevent one occurrence of the item listed.

To ensure we're reading this the same way, "It has been estimated that 111 to 125 normal infant boys ... would need to be circumcised at birth to prevent one UTI."

Prevention of phimosis: NNT = 67

Decrease in early UTI: NNT = 111 – 125

Decrease in UTI in males with risk factors (anomaly or recurrent infection): NNT = 4 – 6

Decreased acquisition of HIV: NNT = 298 (65 – 1231 depending on population)

Decreased acquisition of HSV (Herpes): NNT = 16

Decreased acquisition of HPV: NNT = 5

Decreased penile cancer risk: NNT = 900 – 322,000

Decreased cervical cancer risk in female partners: NNT = 90 – 140

And: "An estimated 0.8% to 1.6% of boys will require circumcision before puberty, most commonly to treat phimosis. The first-line medical treatment of phimosis involves applying a topical steroid twice a day to the foreskin, accompanied by gentle traction. This therapy ... allow[s] the foreskin to become retractable in 80% of treated cases, thus usually avoiding the need for circumcision."

Now for the risks:

Minor Bleeding: 1.5%

Local infection (minor): NNH 67

Severe infection: Extremely rare

Death from unrecognized bleeding: Extremely rare

Meatal Stenosis: NNH 10-50 (<1% when petroleum jelly is used)

Personally I think these are terrible numbers and they don't medically justify routine circumcision on newborns. The medical benefit is so slim it's effectively zero for the person it's being done to. Not to mention that for preventative measures the standard of evidence has to be higher, such as we have with vaccines. Circumcision does not have this.

As you say, settled with science.

[–]anonymous3182 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]anonymous3182 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]geocitiesuser points 9 years ago* [recovered] (32 children) | Copy Link

I didn't even say what my opinions were. Just that other people have different opinions. To which I triggered Men's Rights. This is the one topic on this subreddit I want nothing to do with, because you all get really really WEIRD and SJWish over it. The cult of the foreskin. I'm not saying I'm for circumscision, I'm not saying Im against it either. But the cult behavior is weird and a huge turn off. Any opposing view is lambasted. Reminds me of the HAES pigs and the way they treat differing opinions in their ranks too. Really freakin sad.

[–]-redditardation- 14 points15 points16 points 9 years ago (20 children) | Copy Link

[+]geocitiesuser points 9 years ago* [recovered] (15 children) | Copy Link

The irony is lost on you. Idgaf either way, but don't complain that people are unreceptive of opinions when that's how you rationalize others'.

[–]-redditardation- 3 points4 points5 points 9 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

I'm not rationalizing an opinion.

You don't understand the difference between an opinion and an action. An opinion has no physical manifestation. I can say I think you should die. It is but that. Now the action is a different story altogether.

We could probably both agree that people have a right to say I think you should die and we would probably both agree that murder isn't good.

I don't mind the people who have an opinion that is for circumcision at all. I care about the people who act on that opinion. If you wish to debate people into eternity about circumcision but never actually do it you're fine by me. The moment you do though you have violated another humans right to bodily integrity. You have now acted upon them.

If we legalize bodily harm lets do it uniformly and not just against baby boys.

[+]geocitiesuser points 9 years ago* [recovered] (8 children) | Copy Link

You don't understand the difference

The irony is lost.

[–]-redditardation-3 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]coachbradb0 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

No irony is lost.

Said the guy who the irony is lost on.

You just seem to not understand the difference between an action and an opinion.

So you are saying that this guy personally went out and performed a circumcision? NO YOU IDIOT. He stated that some people have different opinions. You do not understand the difference.

It's not really a cult.

Its real close. I would call it Fascist though. That is a better definition.

If you want to legalize bodily harm

If you want to give parents the choice of making a health decision for their baby that has proven to have health benefits....

I just see a problem when only a specific kind of person can be victimized.

I just see a problem when only a specific kind of person has the choice to help their child with proven health benefits. FTFY

[–]-redditardation-3 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]coachbradb -1 points0 points1 point 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

I'm not rationalizing an opinion.

Yes you are. This is exactly what you are doing by definition.

You don't understand the difference between an opinion and an action

No. He seems to understand it perfectly. It is you who is having problems with this.

An opinion has no physical manifestation.

The opinion is if the physical manifestation should happen, not happen or having no care if it happens either way. As a teacher you would be failing in my logic class.

We could probably both agree that people have a right to say I think you should die and we would probably both agree that murder isn't good.

Ok, here comes the strawman again.

I don't mind the people who have an opinion that is for circumcision at all.

You have proven this a lie over and over.

I care about the people who act on that opinion.

Like the Mayo clinic and the APA.

If you wish to debate people into eternity about circumcision but never actually do it you're fine by me.

Again your comments prove this a lie. You attack anyone who had a differing opinion. You dont debate them, you attack them.

The moment you do though you have violated another humans right to bodily integrity.

Sounding a lot like an anti-vaxer here. You make the same arguments. Better not get your kid vaccinated or get those tonsils out.

If we legalize bodily harm lets do it uniformly and not just against baby boys.

Wow, your arguments just get more insane.

[–]-redditardation-1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]coachbradb-1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

If vaccines are shown to do harm then they shouldn't be administered.

They are. There is always a small percentage who are harmed. The argument is that it is for the greater good. Perhaps you should pick up a science book.

The whole autism thing is based on a faulty study.

Never mentioned this once. But you should look up the stats. My son almost died from a reaction to a vaccine but I still advocate getting vaccines.

Keep trying with you straw mans.

You should probably look this up too. I will help you. Your argument is that you should not do something to someones body until they are old enough to give permission. Stating that you support vaccines goes directly to your argument and is not a strawman. Education is a wonderful thing.

Tonsils are often necessary as many children have problems with continual and regular infections

Circumcision lowers the rate of urinary infections and decreases the chances of catching life threatening and painful STDS. See Mayo Clinic and the APA.

We don't take everyone's tonsils out.

It is a decision the parents are allowed to make, it is not forced upon anyone. Just like circumcision.

Only the ones who have severe tonsillitis

This again is not true. Many kids have their tonsils out long before any problems have arrived. Guess those parents and doctors should be in jail.

[–]-redditardation-3 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]coachbradb -1 points0 points1 point 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]coachbradb -2 points-1 points0 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

You're either for mutilating babies or you're not.

This is an idiotic statement. How about I turn it around. You're either for protecting male babies from all kinds of medical problems or you're not.

Base your opinion on facts and not hyperbole and you will get a better reaction.

Sure if your opinion is that you think you have a right to mutilate a baby that is fine by me but then people should be allowed to use your logic on you.

I wish you would start using logic instead of fallacies. That would be a great day.

It isn't SJWy. It's just good ole common law.

common law?

com·mon law [ˈkämən ˈˌlô] NOUN the part of English law that is derived from custom and judicial precedent rather than statutes. Often contrasted with statutory law.

Seems common law would say you should circumcise.

[–]-redditardation- 4 points5 points6 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]coachbradb 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]-redditardation-3 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Eryemil 7 points8 points9 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

You either care about the rights, safety and well-being of men and boys or you don't. Picking and choosing based on what affects you personally doesn't make you an activist/advocate, it makes you a self-service asshole.

As a gay man the majority of the stuff that's on the MR platform doesn't affect me in any way. Unfair family court, divorce, alimony, rape panic, Duluth model etc. etc. I could easily focus on the couple of issues that affect me and leave straight men to fend for themselves. The intactivist movement is larger than the MRM and has a lot more support.

But the reason I consider myself an MRA is because I understand that the genital mutilation of American boys is intrinsically connected to male disposability and disregard for male suffering.

It's easy to say an issue is important when it affects you personally and a lot harder to care when it doesn't. Specially one like circumcision which lead circumcised men to ask themselves a lot of uncomfortable questions.

[–]coachbradb 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

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[+]geocitiesuser points 9 years ago* [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

Thank you for your sanity. Diversity of ideas is good. A good idea should be able to withstand criticism. It just irks me that the same exact thing everyone complains about in terms of feminist SJWs, they then turn around and do when it comes to this topic specifically. It's like... really? This is what triggers you? The flap of skin on my pecker? sigh....

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Ahh, the classic fallback of the pro-cutters: just accuse everyone of antisemitism.

Since circumcision has been proven to have long term health benefits these rulings are clearly targeted at Jewish peoples. Not that Europe has had any long history of trying to get rid of the Jews.

That history is probably a big part of the reason it hasn't been banned. My understanding is that in developed countries besides the US, the great majority of the population that are not members of religious minorities that practice circumcision for religious reasons oppose it and think it's barbaric. But because Europe's history has made it so easy for said religious minorities to cry "persecution!" any rulings against circumcision have been worded in a way that gives religions a loophole. In other words, it's culturally considered unacceptable, but remains legal.

Of course, the "freedom of religion argument" isn't applied to Muslims cutting up baby girls' genitals with any success, but it is applied to both Jews and Muslims cutting up baby boys' genitals. Hell, I think even some of the countries where FGM is historically practiced have banned it, but can't easily enforce the law in shithole rural villages. I'm not aware of a single country, whether or not it historically practiced MGM, actually going so far as to outlaw the practice.

[–]coachbradb 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Of course, the "freedom of religion argument"

At no point have I made this argument. I base my argument, that it should be left up to doctors and parents, on studies done by the Mayo clinic, World Health Organization and the American Pediatric Association. You know, well known medical and scientific organizations.

I at no point have advocated cutting any child. In fact my son was not cut. There is no correlation between MGM, what you idiots like to call it and the medical procedure of circumcision.

I'm not aware of a single country, whether or not it historically practiced MGM, actually going so far as to outlaw the practice.

You are correct. Although this argument has been made by many of your ilk to say that it should be done so in the U.S. they have claimed that it is illegal all over Europe and that is what my post was about.

You are making claims that I made arguments that I have not so I will restate my argument for you AGAIN.

Reputable medical and scientific organizations world wide have found that there is indisputable health benefits from circumcising babies. These organizations have also stated that while these health benefits exist they are not to level that circumcision be universally applied even though they recommend getting it done. That leaving it up to the doctor and the parents is the best course of action.

To this statement I agree and advocate. So do you agree or disagree with the above statement. If you are agree with it you back science. If you disagree with it and advocate making it illegal you agree with hysteria.

[+]geocitiesuser points 9 years ago* [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

I really like your rational view. It is similar to my own.

[–]coachbradb -3 points-2 points-1 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

My son was born in China, I lived there for 6 years and my wife is Chinese, and they really dont do it over there. They do have a booming business for teens and adults getting it done now though. He is 10 now and I would not have it done now. I do believe 100% though that this should be left up to the parents and doctors. The evidence is clear that there are health benefits to this procedure.

I tend to agree with the findings of the Mayo clinic and APA, I know this sounds like a broken record but when I was considering it for my son I did a lot of research. They found that there are provable health benefits but these benefits are not so great as to make this universally required. As much as they do not like to admit this it is the same findings as removing tonsils. There are health benefits in doing so but not so great as to make it universally required.

No matter which way you go on this decision there are benefits and drawbacks but neither are so serious as to require or eliminate the procedure.

Having a logical opinion based on scientific findings and societal norms seems to be a crime to these guys. But know that this is a small number of people and the mass majority believes as we do. I only wish they would put this on another forum as it is not a Men's rights issue. It is a health issue.

have a great day.

[–]FreedDrugsTinyGuns 3 points4 points5 points 9 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

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[+]Lorddaeth points 9 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

The foreskin stays attached to the glands until mid to late puberty, so 12-18 years old depending on the person.

[–]harry_1180 6 points7 points8 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Archimald 18 points19 points20 points 9 years ago* (13 children) | Copy Link

[–]MenDeserveRights 14 points15 points16 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]PowerToAnnihilate 8 points9 points10 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I'm not pro-circumcision, but this reminds me off those anti-vaxxer image macros where they frame vaccines as injections of random dangerous chemicals. You could make any surgery sound barbaric with enough of a spin and a lack of context.

except vaccinations are used to treat a disease directly and has been verified to work. It doesn't remove any parts of the person, and works along with germ theory.

Circumcision can actually cause HIV (through the rabbi sucking the boys dick) and has no benefits immediately for the child. You can say it prevents STDs, but no infant is having sex, and you don't get STDs unless you have sex with a person who already has an STD. So your chioces are

1.) wear a condom and get part of your dick cut off before you fuck people.

2.) wear a condom and do not get part of your dick cut off before you fuck people.

Name me another surgery that pre-preemptively removes tissue that is undamaged by disease and is legal.

[–]Lumenis9 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]MenDeserveRights 6 points7 points8 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]lyraseven points 9 years ago* [recovered] (7 children) | Copy Link

What the fuck is not barbaric about it? How the hell does the context not make the situation worse?!

Context:

It's the most sensitive skin on his body.
It is an extremely important part of a male's sexual mechanics.
it's being amputated for no reason.
IT IS A BABY.

[–]Archimald 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]lyraseven12 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]toddiehoward -1 points0 points1 point 9 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[+]lyraseven points 9 years ago* [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link

He also said other stuff, which needed a response. He insinuated that the practice is not barbaric, so I explained why it is.

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[+]Late_Nightsx points 9 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

These goddam feminist haha

"Another day, another conflation of FGM and male circumcision. They have no shame about comparing the worst type of FGM to a circumcised penis, once again proving they give fuck all fucks about girls/women. Ugh." https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/60tem1/oh_thats_okay_then/df9uhfr/

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[+]Not-Homunculus points 9 years ago [recovered] (11 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, I'll never understand the big deal with circumcision. It happened to me. Doesn't really matter at all. I'm actually glad it happened when I was a kid because I don't remember it. This gives me the Anti-Vaxer feel.

[–]MenDeserveRights 9 points10 points11 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[+]Not-Homunculus points 9 years ago [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

Fair enough, but I still don't see the issue with getting circumcised. Especially as a kid, like I was, I prefer it that way. It's not a terrible thing that could kill a ton of people, the only ones who die are from botched operations from bad doctors. I don't feel like I'm missing out on anything.

[–]MenDeserveRights 5 points6 points7 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]DuckHorseDuck6 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I prefer it that way.

You can't possibly say to prefer something when you don't have the faintest clue what the alternative is like.

the only ones who die are from botched operations from bad doctors.

Any number of deaths from an entirely unnecessary surgery, done without the consent of the recipient, which even if performed flawlessly is still destructive and harmful is totally unacceptable.

I don't feel like I'm missing out on anything.

You are, a great deal in fact. The most sensitive part of your penis, for starters. You're also missing the protective function of the foreskin, which keep the glans smooth, moist, and sensitive. For an intact man, walking around with an exposed glans rubbing against their underwear would be very uncomfortable, even painful for some. And yet circumcised men can deal with that friction without feeling a damn thing, as a result of years of desensitization. Circumcision also destroys the gliding motion of the foreskin, which facilitates great comfort and pleasure for masturbation and intercourse.

[–]FreedDrugsTinyGuns 10 points11 points12 points 9 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Not-Homunculus1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[+]Not-Homunculus points 9 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

Yes I do know I don't have to be circumcised. Your argument is that they feel good? Feels good without one too.

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[–]Red1220 27 points28 points29 points 9 years ago* (7 children) | Copy Link

See, the key word in your statement is 'think.' There are also some who think that not vaccinating their children is healthy. Where are the facts? There are none. There is no study out there that makes the assertion- circumcision is healthy- a fact. And some of those assertions that any researchable study come to can be extremely easily remedied without cutting off a child's foreskin.

And if we go back in history to when this practice really took off in America, a certain Dr. Kellogg believed that cutting off the foreskin or burning the clitoris with acid would prevent a child from masturbating. That is rather arbitrary. One of those things became mainstream.

Anyways, those selfsame studies bend over backwards to justify the practice, and the way they go about doing it is extremely laughable. There are similar studies done by a consortium of non American doctors that reach very different conclusions and that actually amend the American backed studies.

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[–]coachbradb -2 points-1 points0 points 9 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

WOW! Everyday on here people like you make me lose more faith in humanity.

So to you... Scientific studies have nothing to do with science. Love this statement. There is very little to almost no argument within the medical/scientific community that health benefits exist for getting circumcised. You see how I didn't use the biased, conspiracy theory, ignorant term MGM. You are no different than when people refuse to call illegal immigrants or Islamic terrorist by what they are. We are talking about the medical procedure called circumcision. If you can not say or write this word than you are not worth debating. You have already drank the cool-aid and can not be saved.

Since your education level is in doubt I will help you here.

Anti-vaxers claim that some fraudulent medical studies show that getting kids vaccinated causes autism. Anti-circ people pop up some fraudulent studies to show that there are no health benefits to circumcision. You see... Exactly the same.

Then they claim that it is all about the kids. We have to save the kids when in fact they are just exercising some mental problems they are having themselves. In your case maybe it is molestation or some other kind of physical abuse. You see there is a plethora of medical and scientfic evidence of the health benefits of circumcision but what is even worse is you and your inane ilk attack people who have no real dog in the fight. When people agree with the scientific evidence that health benefits exist but not so great as to make circumcision universal you call them butchers and mutilators. You are pathetic.

Instead of letting doctors and parents make this decision you think YOU are qualified to make this decision for EVERY single person on the planet. YOU and your medical degree and all those scientific studies that YOU conducted. Mayo clinic, WHO, APA all agree with the science but you in your moms basement know more then them.

Get over yourself and let parents and doctors do their jobs.

After all this you will find that my main argument is that this shouldnt be in Mens rights but in a health forum.

You are a hypocrite and anti-science all because you hate your parents.

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[–]POSVT 7 points8 points9 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Ok, let's get started.

So to you... Scientific studies have nothing to do with science. Love this statement.

Please quote where I said this, or kindly admit you made it up.

There is very little to almost no argument within the medical/scientific community that health benefits exist for getting circumcised.

There are some health benefits, absolutely. There are also concrete risks. There are also inescapable side effects of the procedure. Some or all of these are often exaggerated and overblown, even within scientific literature.

You see how I didn't use the biased, conspiracy theory, ignorant term MGM.

MGM is a factual description. It's also used interchangably with male circumcision, in a similar fashion to female circumcision & FGM. I personally get tired of typing out circumcision, and find MGM to be faster to type while conveying the same information. I could use circ, but that honestly just looks dumb to me.

You are no different than when people refuse to call illegal immigrants or Islamic terrorist by what they are.

More assumptions/making things up.

We are talking about the medical procedure called circumcision. If you can not say or write this word than you are not worth debating. You have already drank the cool-aid and can not be saved.

The reverse of your position is equally as true...

Since your education level is in doubt I will help you here.

Really digging the condescension, super helpful to have in a discussion. As for my education level, I'm a 3rd year medical student (~15 months from my MD), meaning I've had all the basic science training a physician gets (anatomy, physiology, biochem, ect. ect.) & passed the first part of the US medical licensing exams, as well as completing ~half of the core clinical sciences: Internal medicine, Psychiatry, Ob/Gyn, Surgery, and Pediatrics. I'm by no means an expert, and I'm not going to pretend to be - most doctors who aren't urologists/pedi urologists aren't either, but I'm not a lay person either.

Anti-vaxers claim that some fraudulent medical studies show that getting kids vaccinated causes autism.

Ok, I've seen some of the studies I think you're referring to (e.g. the lancet piece that started this b/s) and yep, they're crap.

Anti-circ people pop up some fraudulent studies to show that there are no health benefits to circumcision.

However you're gonna have to support that assertion. The vast majority of the studies I've read about the long term complications/side effects of circumcision were adequately powered and methodologically sound. I haven't seen them all, so please - enlighten me here.

You see... Exactly the same.

Sure, except for the part where they're vastly different.

Then they claim that it is all about the kids. We have to save the kids when in fact they are just exercising some mental problems they are having themselves.

Again, citation needed. Especially for that last bit, since I don't think you're qualified to make that assertion. Might just be some projection, but I can't be sure.

In your case maybe it is molestation or some other kind of physical abuse.

So I'm gonna call this a toss up between assumptions, putting words in my mouth, and more projection. Further study needed.

You see there is a plethora of medical and scientfic evidence of the health benefits of circumcision

Ok....and?

but what is even worse is you and your inane ilk attack people who have no real dog in the fight.

Please provide quotes, or admit you're making things up again. I'm seeing a pattern.

When people agree with the scientific evidence that health benefits exist but not so great as to make circumcision universal

And when people point out the very real ethical considerations, the risks and drawbacks (which are also supported by a plethora of evidence), there being no medical indication for prophylactic MGM of newborns, the made up benefits (hygeine, for example) used to justify the procedure, you dismiss them as abused/molested anti science idiots. That's pretty hypocritical.

you call them butchers and mutilators.

provide quotes or admit you're making things up again.

You are pathetic.

For someone with 'no dog in the fight' you're getting pretty emotional. Please feel free to get some of that anger off your chest in your next reply, it might make you feel better.

Instead of letting doctors and parents make this decision you think YOU are qualified to make this decision for EVERY single person on the planet.

Interesting...now we're seeing some transference. Or maybe you're just making things up again....either way, what I absolutely am qualified to do is look at the totality of the evidence and conclude that there is no medical indication for routine infant MGM. There are some health benefits to an adult, but only one for the neonate/child, and it's extremely mild (UTIs). Contrasted with the rate of severe complications and long term consequences (sensitivity, ED & other erectile issues, ect.), the evidence does not support the benefits outweighing the risks. It's also worth noting that parent's don't really have a leg to stand on here in terms of genital autonomy - outside of specific articulable pathology, unwarranted cosmetic surgery with even a low risk of serious complications is not something we should ethically allow parents to opt their children into.

YOU and your medical degree and all those scientific studies that YOU conducted.

Is there an argument here, or just more displaced anger? Not having personally conducted studies doesn't prevent doctors from looking at them.

Mayo clinic, WHO, APA all agree with the science but you in your moms basement know more then them.

WHO's support is largely based on HIV factors & strong input from the US. APA has been backpedaling for years, and their position is outright contradicted by equivalent groups in other nations (Denmark, for example). Same for Mayo. As for the basement thing, I'm going to assume that's just more transference, or just you making stuff up again (definitely a pattern).

Get over yourself and let parents and doctors do their jobs.

Parent's don't (or shouldn't) have much of a place here, any more than they do in FGM. As for letting doctors do their job - that's exactly what's going on. Doctors are not perfect, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with disagreeing with their stance, especially when backed by evidence. I think the APA are wrong on this issue, and there's nothing wrong with that.

After all this you will find that my main argument is that this shouldnt be in Mens rights but in a health forum.

Lack of genital integrity, especially in the context of the discrimination between baby boys and girls, is very clearly an issue relating to the rights of men and boys.

You are a hypocrite and anti-science all because you hate your parents.

As established above, the only hypocrite here is you. You have completely failed to demonstrate your claim of anti-science anything. And finally - I don't hate my parents, but hopefully you'll feel better after typing out your rage-rant here.

Not sure if I'll be around much tonight, just finished call and I've got to be in early tomorrow but if you feel like replying I'll get back to you sometime tomorrow. If not, I hope you feel better, and you might want to consider talking to someone about your anger.

[–]Red1220 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

I have posted this link twice already in this thread and I can only assume that you refuse to look at it. You keep harping on APA/WHO/Mayo clinic studies which are largely American backed. The WHO only cares about the AIDS part of the study.

Here is a study, done by European doctors- all their names are listed at the top, as they have all signed the document as a statement against the American pro-circumcision cultural bias. That is the only real way you can define American and maybe even your own views on this subject. Almost 40 non American doctors signed this document.

Here is the link. I hope that since it basically goes against everything you keep touting as fact, you don't ignore it or get bent out of shape over it. I also honestly want to see your counter argument against a doctor in training- who refuted every single one of your points wonderfully.

I really have no dog in this fight as I am uncut. It just seriously baffles my mind the way that people think it's alright to cut up someone's genitals, not even to speak of the inherent double standard that comes with the issue.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2013/03/12/peds.2012-2896

[+]DuckHorseDuck points 9 years ago* [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

The benefits are so minuscule they're essentially meaningless, and hardly any of them apply to children. There is no justification for cutting a healthy child, and it is utterly preposterous to suggest parents should have the right to decide. It's not their penis. What other normal, healthy, functional body parts are parents allowed to have cut off of their children? It's totally unnecessary, and if the boy grows up to believe a fraction of a percent here and there in benefit is worth loosing the most sensitive part of his penis over, he's welcome to get it done himself.

Circumcision, when not treating an actual problem, is not a medical procedure, it's a cultural ritual performed by doctors. This doesn't make circumcision a medical procedure any more than it does clitoral hood removals in hospitals in Southeast Asia. A mastectomy is a medical procedure, but giving one to an unconsenting girl with no medical indication to do so is not.

Far less destructive things done to girls are classified as genital mutilation and banned. If we really wanted to, we could probably come up with some inconsequential benefits for FGM, too. Get your daughter circumcised, she can't get clitoral phimosis and it decreases the risk of cancer! Fortunately for the girls in this country, we don't- girls have a right to genital autonomy in the first world, boys don't. This is perhaps the greatest disparity in legal rights between the sexes in the first world, and you seriously don't think it's a men's rights issue?

[–]coachbradb 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

The benefits are so minuscule they're essentially meaningless, and hardly any of them apply to children

Top world medical scientist disagree.

and it is utterly preposterous to suggest parents should have the right to decide. It's not their penis.

Its not their tonsils.

It's totally unnecessary

Neither is removing tonsils.

and if the boy grows up to believe a fraction of a percent here and there in benefit is worth losing the most sensitive part of his penis over,

Seems everything is about sex with you guys. Perhaps you should check your priorities.

Circumcision, when not treating an actual problem, is not a medical procedure

It is a medical procedure.

Noun 1. medical procedure - a procedure employed by medical or dental practitionersmedical procedure - a procedure employed by medical or dental practitioners

it's a cultural ritual performed by doctors.

Please see above definition.

A mastectomy is a medical procedure

According to your definition it is only a medical procedure if the woman has cancer. The 1000s of women who have mastectomies with no signs of cancer because breast cancer runs in the family would not be in your mind. This is preventative and to you no preventative procedure done by a doctor is actually a medical procedure. You just keep going back and forth on this stuff. Perhaps you need to evaluate what you really believe.

we don't- girls have a right to genital autonomy in the first world, boys don't. This is perhaps the greatest disparity in legal rights between the sexes in the first world, and you seriously don't think it's a men's rights issue?

This reveals you are a complete idiot.

Sorry to destroy every single one of your inane arguments but perhaps you being shown how stupid your argument are will help you out. Not sure what awful thing your parents did to make you hate them, I hope it was not sexual abuse but with how you talk I am thinking it was.

Get some help.

[–]Red1220 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Once again, you seem to enjoy touting the- top world doctors say it's ok- line but completely ignoring my link in which almost 40 European doctors put their names on, publicly, and have decried the practice and so called studies as proof of an American pro circumcision cultural bias. You keep ignoring them. Maybe European doctors are not real doctors to you? I'll post even more links than the one I've been posting. And their all by doctors and are all just as valid, if not more so, than anything the WHO/APA/AAP/Mayo clinic put out.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2013/03/12/peds.2012-2896

https://www.academia.edu/23431341/Statement_by_Statement_Analysis_of_the_2012_Report_from_the_American_Academy_of_Pediatrics_Task_Force_on_Circumcision_When_National_Organizations_are_Guided_by_Personal_Agendas_II

http://www.circumcision.org/aap.htm

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4364150/

I kind of expect this to be ignored by you, but hope it won't be.

[–]GentleHammer -5 points-4 points-3 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[+]FlinkeRose points 9 years ago [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

No disrespect but I laughed.

[–]GentleHammer 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]toddiehoward 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]nevejtn -13 points-12 points-11 points 9 years ago (43 children) | Copy Link

So as a medical professional, I can tell you that the circumcision isn't a purely aesthetic one. Uncircumcised men run a much higher risk of cancer when it comes to the skin on the penis and testicular cancer. They also are not as hygienic which leads to greater infections, which includes what it causes to the female populations and Gay populations. The resource I saw listed about children dying due to botched surgeries had a response that is very accurate, which is that anytime you have a surgery there is risk of something going wrong. That hasn't changed from the time of the first surgery and won't change until there is a way to make a robot that is 100% precise, 100% of the time. But I also agree that it shouldn't be done all the time, with everybody, which is why we talk to the parents of the child beforehand. You don't usually wait until the child gets older because the risk increases the later in life that they have the procedure done. Edit: grammar

[–]MenDeserveRights 14 points15 points16 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]WigglingCaboose 7 points8 points9 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points10 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]FreedDrugsTinyGuns 14 points15 points16 points 9 years ago (39 children) | Copy Link

Uncircumcised men run a much higher risk of cancer when it comes to the skin on the penis

Penile cancer is already an extremely rare cancer already. Do you see men in Europe or Asia dying in the streets with dick cancer?

You could prevent a lot more cancer by cutting the breast buds off of infant girls than you would cutting the foreskin off boys.

They also are not as hygienic which leads to greater infections

Washing an uncircumcised penis isn't rocket science, you pull the foreskin back and rinse it with water. Its no less hygienic or harder to wash than a woman's vulva.

which is that anytime you have a surgery there is risk of something going wrong.

Exactly, so why risk an unnecessary surgery on your baby?

But I also agree that it shouldn't be done all the time

It shouldn't be done to anyone other than consenting adult men.

You sound like an ignorant American doctor that doesn't know anything about the foreskin other than how to cut it off. They don't teach American doctors how important the foreskin is or what it does, they just teach them how to remove it.

[–]nevejtn 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

You're right it is rare, but if you look at the instances of penal cancer you see an increase in instances among those that are uncircumcised. So the statement that it increases the risk is still accurate, so you didn't disprove anything. And cutting the breasts off girls going into puberty would be good until you want to breast feed newborns and pass immunity and increase the infants chance of survival.

You are also correct that pulling the skin back to wash the inside isn't hard, but people don't do it reliably. Working in the hospital and seeing the number of men who fail to wash and end up with UTI and infections has SHOWN me that it must be harder than we think it is or it wouldn't be as common.

I'm guessing you are also an anti-vaccination advocate, since you are so dead set against something that would protect the person from issues, makes cleaning easier, and would be done when it would be least detrimental to the person. The little additional benefit by providing additional redundancy to immunologic defense would be the only argument that would be a good. But even that would be for children that were immune deficient, and not for the majority of the population.

Did you get a medical education, or are you just another person that looks things up on google and think you know best?

[–]FreedDrugsTinyGuns 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

but if you look at the instances of penal cancer you see an increase in instances among those that are uncircumcised

Yet Europe, Asia, Central America, and South America seems to be doing just fine. Men aren't dying in the streets of penile cancer in London, or Tokyo, or Rio.

And cutting the breasts off girls going into puberty would be good until you want to breast feed newborns and pass immunity and increase the infants chance of survival.

Many children get by just fine without being breast feed. Wouldn't it be more worth it to lessen women's risks of dying of breast cancer?

Working in the hospital and seeing the number of men who fail to wash and end up with UTI and infections has SHOWN me that it must be harder than we think it is or it wouldn't be as common.

You work at a hospital. Of course you're only going to see men with foreskin problems, because men without foreskin problems don't come to see you. Just like dentists are going to see a lot of people with cavities, that doesn't mean we should pull everyone's teeth out, does it?

I'm guessing you are also an anti-vaccination advocate

Vaccines and circumcision aren't even remotely comparable. Vaccine are established medical science that is practiced routinely the world over. While routine circumcision is only practiced in the US, the Middle East, parts of Africa, South Korea, and the Philippines. Seventy percent of men worldwide, are not circumcised.

since you are so dead set against something that would protect the person from issues, makes cleaning easier, and would be done when it would be least detrimental to the person

I'm not dead set against circumcision, I'm dead set it being performed on someone who can't consent. It's a cosmetic surgery that has questionable health benefits and possible negative sexual side effects. I consider it genital mutilation.

or are you just another person that looks things up on google and think you know best?

Are you just another American doctor that was taught nothing in medical school besides "foreskin bad, cut off!"? Did they teach you in medical school that the inner foreskin, frenulum, and ridged band are the most sensitive parts of the penis?

[–]nevejtn 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

I didn't say if you fail to get circumcised you will contract penile cancer, but it increases the chances. You notice the instances are higher in places with low circumcision rates, not pandemic, but higher.
There are children who would die if they were only given formula. Since I have to spell it out for you, I'm not saying all or even most children, but some. So that's not a good comparison, no matter how hard you try to force it to make sense. I'm not sure how many times you have been to the dentist but if you notice they never suggest going out healthy teeth is a good option, nor is it a good idea to just pull out all the teeth. But when a patient comes in for multiple issues, and one of the issues that arises often among uncircumcised people is UTI, it's hard to not see a pattern. I have had two UTI in circumcised men in the last 6 months and 7 in uncircumcised men in the same time. But that is just an odd coincidence right? Not at all a sign of any issues...? I made the parallel between the anti-vaccination movement and yours because there is valid evidence for both, but both have come under fire by people that want to ignore solid evidence because it sounds good. The likelihood of issues increases when you do it later, the likely hood of the parents failing to maintain the child health, and the fact that anyone in diapers (old or young) is likely to get fecal matter in the folds (and here's the twist) increasing the likely hood of infection. No, I've never been taught "foreskin bad...", but they have given me the facts on both sides of the issue and allowed me to make my own choices and decisions about what I think. I understand all of that, along with the fact that it provides more immune defense. But the sensitivity "lost" from the removal of the foreskin and (occasionally) the frenulum aren't to the magnitude you seem to think they are. The banned rings are exposed by the removal so it would make it more accessible to be stimulated.

[–]FreedDrugsTinyGuns 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago* (9 children) | Copy Link

I didn't say if you fail to get circumcised you will contract penile cancer, but it increases the chances.

Penile cancer is extremely rare anyway and usually only happens in older men. I would gladly take my foreskin back if it meant that I got penile cancer at 60 years old.

60 years of 100% natural and intact sex/masturbation > having sex in my current state for the rest of my life

I have had two UTI in circumcised men in the last 6 months and 7 in uncircumcised men in the same time.

Women get way more UTIs and infections than an intact man can ever dream of getting in his life time, but I don't see anyone suggesting we should slice their junk up. And not to mention, Europe and Asia aren't having huge UTI epidemics, so I guess this is just an American problem; I guess American men just don't know how to clean their intact penises.

And we have antibiotics and medicine now, we don't need to slice body parts off when they get infected, like a bunch of savages.

because there is valid evidence for both,

Ask a European, Asian, or Australian doctor, they will suggest against circumcision newborns nine times out of ten. I guess this evidence is only valid in America.

and the fact that anyone in diapers (old or young) is likely to get fecal matter in the folds

Are you sure you wen't to medical school? Because if you did, you would know that the foreskin is literally fused to the glans until around 4-5 years of age. There isn't any "folds" for it to get under.

You really want to talk about folds for feces and urine to get under? And do you really think that an open circumcision wound is less likely to get infected than a normal intact penis?

But the sensitivity "lost" from the removal of the foreskin and (occasionally) the frenulum aren't to the magnitude you seem to think they are.

It doesn't matter what "magnitude" they are, the fact is that circumcision reduces sensitivity. Even if circumcision only reduced sensitivity by 0.000000001%, I would still be pretty angry about being circumcised.

The banned rings are exposed by the removal so it would make it more accessible to be stimulated.

I don't know what medical school you learned at, but you should get your money back. The ridged band is at the very tip of the foreskin. There is literally no way to circumcised a baby without completely removing the ridged band.

[–]nevejtn 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

You can have reconstruction of it really bugs you that back that bad, but I'll agree that it isn't the same. But you will get to see that is is useless and get most of the downsides you don't thing are that bad anyway. Cutting a woman's anatomy would only make it worse since the problem they have is that the distance the infectious agent has to travel is less. Once again your comparison falls on its face for lack of knowledge. As for the access to medicine: yes we have the access, but the more times you take an antibiotic the less effective it is. The less effective it is, the more meds we have to develop to combat the same bug that's mutated to combat the mess we have. Not to mention the more meds you take, the harder you liver and kidneys have to work to filter, making it more likely to fail earlier. The eastern medicine is more focused on holistic, non-medicinal approaches of doing things. (Just to be clear, non medicinal isn't the same as non-medical). So the way they practice medicine starts from a different place, which leads to a different place. Ones preventative, the others reactionary. The foreskin is a moveable "sheath" of sorts and must be cleaned by sliding out of the way to reach the area between the shaft and the internal portions. which is painful for some people which leads to a lack of hygiene. So depending on what you mean by "fused", you might want to look at your own sources again. What do you think is a longer term issue? A cut that is healed in a week or so, or a portion of the body that holds urine and defecate until to make a point of cleaning it out? You are right to say it's a major western issue, but unless you have a plan to also drop the rate we have now, what you want will only make the rate go up. So you would take an increased rate of infection to gain what you already have, and the most minor of increased sensations?
To be honest, I wanted to see if you were looking this stuff up and being knowledgeable, or just saying stupid stuff to keep the convo going. Sadly you really do think this stuff, and are trying to say that you think that because you don't like a higher safety and advice from a system that you disagree with, you want everyone else to be screwed over too.
I was going to just say "we clearly won't agree, so we are both wasting our time here." But you wanted to call into question my knowledge on something you were wrong about. (The fusion part since I have to spell this out for you obviously.)

[–]FreedDrugsTinyGuns 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

But you will get to see that is is useless and get most of the downsides you don't thing are that bad anyway.

No I won't, because a restored foreskin will never feel, look, or act the same as a normal foreskin. The normal foreskin has tens of thousands of specialized nerve endings, a restored foreskin doesn't. Not to mention that restored foreskins are looser and aren't as elastic as a normal one because it doesn't have the dartos muscle or the frenulum.

The foreskin is a moveable "sheath" of sorts and must be cleaned by sliding out of the way to reach the area between the shaft and the internal portions. which is painful for some people which leads to a lack of hygiene. So depending on what you mean by "fused"

Sure, it's movable for adults, but not for newborns. Newborns foreskins are fused to their glans when they are born and don't usually detach until around 4-5 years old, but there have been accounts of it not detected until adulthood.

There is literally nowhere for feces or urine to go unless ignorant parents or uneducated American doctors pull the foreskin back prematurely.

That's usually what the cause of all of these infections are in uncircumcised boys, because if you look at statistics, European newborns don't get anywhere near the amount of UTIs and infections as American newborns do.

or a portion of the body that holds urine and defecate until to make a point of cleaning it out?

What are labia? What are clitoral hoods?

you want everyone else to be screwed over too.

You're the selfish one. You want a thousands of boys to be mutilated just so one doesn't have to have a UTI that can be cured with antibiotics just like we do with baby girls.

Why should I be screwed out of my foreskin just for that? I'm the the one that got screwed over.

[–]nevejtn 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]FreedDrugsTinyGuns 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]nevejtn1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]FreedDrugsTinyGuns1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]nevejtn1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I'm just tired of opening an app I use in my spare time and having massages that take forever to read and respond to. You are mad that parents who are concerned for their kids, are doing something that has shown health benefits, because you as an adult dont like... I don't even know what, but are mad about it. You aren't willing to do anything real about it, so you argue with people online about it where it won't change anything. Then you accuse people of being ignorant when they are trying to just be done with it because they see that you aren't going to change your mind and are therefore just wasting their time talking to you. You don't see why a person would just get tired of dealing with you? You aren't going to change your mind, I feel I am right with my belief and haven't seen anything that will change my stance, so we are at an impasse. What point is there to continue?

[–]FreedDrugsTinyGuns1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You are mad that parents

Not really so much as "mad" as just disappointed and little bitter. I'm still on good terms with my parents and talk to them regularly. But I won't lie that I get kind of angry when things about my birth are brought up, because it reminds me of what was done to me only days later.

You aren't willing to do anything real about it

Like what? What can I do at this point? There's foreskin restoration but that won't bring back 100% of what was taken from me. The only thing that will bring it back 100% is regenerative medicine and that is at least another ten to twenty years out.

Then you accuse people of being ignorant when they are trying to just be done with it

No, I accused you of being ignorant because you seem to not know anything about how the foreskin works including the fact that you can't pull an infant's foreskin back.

I feel I am right with my belief

And you accuse me of not being able to change my mind.

What point is there to continue?

Honestly you're probably right. It's pretty frustrating for me too because you only reply every other week and by that time, I've already forgotten what was said previously and what we are arguing about.

[–]nevejtn2 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Parents in general not just yours, but (all hostility aside) have you sat down and had a calm discussion with them about your point of view? It won't change what happened, but it might help you to start to heal the emotion behind it some so you can start to get closure. Real world actions would be partitioning the government to get new bill introduced, writing to officials to have your laws changed, starting a fund or charity to make your platform better know or taught in schools. I get that this can be cathartic to get out, but it doesn't further your point, or gain traction.
I don't work in labor and delivery, and it's been a while since I went over the information, so I'll admit I had to go back and reread notes, but I did throw in the curve ball about the band to see the depth of your knowledge. So I will apologize for that if I haven't already. I do feel right in my belief, same as you do. But I also said that I didn't see any evidence that chances my stance on the subject, meaning that if someone gave me evidence that showed me that the risk was greater then the payout I would be willing to change my stance. You didn't provide that, and that's okay. It's not a failure of your part. Ive been busy lately with work, getting back to school, family life, and trying to get a vacation planned. I can't get on often, but I'm glad we can agree that our time is better used elsewhere.
Like I've said before, I wish you the best of luck in life, and hope things go your way. Take care, and please honestly consider the conversation with your folks and the activism for your cause.

[+]Jaloss points 9 years ago [recovered] (25 children) | Copy Link

You sound like an ignorant American doctor that doesn't know anything about the foreskin other than how to cut it off. They don't teach American doctors how important the foreskin is or what it does, they just teach them how to remove it.

Do you not have any respect for how much work goes into becoming a doctor? That "ignorant American doctor" probably knows more than you in any subject on the human body. Its easy to sit on the outside and talk about what someone is, and what someone isnt. But when it comes down to it, show some respect to the actual intellectuals and move your internet website educated ass to the sidelines.

[–]FreedDrugsTinyGuns 7 points8 points9 points 9 years ago (24 children) | Copy Link

[+]Jaloss points 9 years ago [recovered] (23 children) | Copy Link

And you can say this because?

[–]FreedDrugsTinyGuns 6 points7 points8 points 9 years ago (22 children) | Copy Link

[+]Jaloss points 9 years ago [recovered] (21 children) | Copy Link

The fact that I have read accounts of doctors who say just as much.

Your amazing source

[–]FreedDrugsTinyGuns 5 points6 points7 points 9 years ago (19 children) | Copy Link

[+]Jaloss points 9 years ago [recovered] (18 children) | Copy Link

I prefer actual sources than your anecdotal evidence

[–]FreedDrugsTinyGuns 3 points4 points5 points 9 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link

[–]DuckHorseDuck2 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[+]michaelscottspenis points 9 years ago [recovered] (16 children) | Copy Link

I'm actually glad I was circumcised as an infant. I have a rather large wang, not bragging. I likely would have had a medical need for it to be removed. There's condition where the foreskin can become too tight and painful due to a girthy member. I don't see why there is such an outrage over male circumcision. If I ever have kids, a boy, he will be circumcised. I don't understand intactivists.

[–]Daemonicus 13 points14 points15 points 9 years ago* (7 children) | Copy Link

[+]michaelscottspenis points 9 years ago [recovered] (6 children) | Copy Link

So my foreskin aids in balance and hearing?

[–]Daemonicus 6 points7 points8 points 9 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[+]michaelscottspenis points 9 years ago [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

Do yourself a favor and read up on this. Don't tell me you're an antivaxxer too.

http://www.circinfo.net/summary.html

Men have real issues, this is not one of them. Let's not be like a certain group and reach for injustices that aren't really there when there are plenty of real ones.

[–]Daemonicus 7 points8 points9 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]DuckHorseDuck2 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[+]michaelscottspenis points 9 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

That's a straw man. It has nothing to do with the actual argument at hand. Your questions are irrelevant to the discussion at hand. How about asking me questions related to circumcision. What function does the foreskin serve so well that you need it so bad? The condition I was talking about is called phimosis.

[–]Daemonicus 8 points9 points10 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Start reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreskin#Functions

And how is it not relevant? People claim that it's okay to remove foreskin because it serves no purpose. Fine, if that's the logic you want to use... Then it should be okay to remove other body parts because they serve no purpose. Like male nipples, and Auricles.

And to be fair... You never actually stated an actual argument. You simply said you don't see why there's outrage. I provided context that you could understand it. And your response has been infantile.

The condition I was talking about is called phimosis.

In young children, it is normal to not be able to pull back the foreskin. In more than 90% of cases, this inability resolves by the age of seven, and in 99% of cases by age 16.[4][5] Occasionally, phimosis may be caused by an underlying condition such as scarring due to balanitis or balanitis xerotica obliterans. This can typically be diagnosed by seeing scarring of the opening of the foreskin.[5]

You don't know what Phimosis is.

[–]MenDeserveRights 7 points8 points9 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]toddiehoward 4 points5 points6 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]vein_cane -3 points-2 points-1 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]PowerToAnnihilate 7 points8 points9 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]dirk_diggler17 -4 points-3 points-2 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]chaun2 7 points8 points9 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]MenDeserveRights 3 points4 points5 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]PowerToAnnihilate 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]Jethr0Paladin -25 points-24 points-23 points 9 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

[–]Odz2427 9 points10 points11 points 9 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

[–]WigglingCaboose 10 points11 points12 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Odz2427 4 points5 points6 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]Jethr0Paladin -8 points-7 points-6 points 9 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]Odz2427 9 points10 points11 points 9 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[+]Jethr0Paladin -9 points-8 points-7 points 9 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]toddiehoward 7 points8 points9 points 9 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]Odz2427 8 points9 points10 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Jethr0Paladin -2 points-1 points0 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]toddiehoward 3 points4 points5 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Odz2427 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points10 points 9 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Title	"Oh. That's okay then".
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	1317
Comments	394
Date	March 22, 2017 8:21 AM UTC (9 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/60tem1/oh_thats_okay_then/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/oh-thats-okay-then.928305 https://theredarchive.com/post/928305

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