Always with the double standards.

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[–]psycho_admin 5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago* (10 children) | Copy Link

Is that actually still considered a lot?

Are you a troll or just trying to show what a big e-penis you have? If you are being honest then I recommend you look here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States

Or if you are too lazy to read and just want the summary:

U.S. real (inflation adjusted) median household income was $51,939 in 2013 versus $51,759 in 2012, essentially unchanged.

So 100K is double the US median household income so yes 100K a year is considered a lot.

Edit to add: Your edit and replies to others make it sound as if you come from money and you are too idiotic to put yourself in the shoes of others. Just because you have the chance to make Y+X amount per year you are assuming no one else can think that Y by itself (100K in this case) is a lot of money because you will be making more then that. Yes there are people who make more then Y but doesn't mean that there aren't people who think that Y isn't a large quantity of money and would be more then happy to marry someone just because they make Y money which in this case also happens to be DOUBLE the national median household income.

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Holy shit someone needed to say this. Sometimes we get in this rut where we feel so fucking sorry for ourselves that we make ourselves out to be a victim or we just villainize others for the sake of villainizing them.

Height is the only actual double standard that was mentioned.
Penis size is massively irrelevant. Unless your penis size physically makes you incapable of performing in bed, few women cite this as anything more than a "nice to have." Most don't care, and neither should we.
Wealth is hard to say. In terms of marriage, the deck is stacked against the man, and you can be certain that this fact has been taken advantage of. But to what extent? We hear horror stories because they're newsworthy, but in terms of frequency of active gold-diggers (i.e. marry only for wealth, I'm not sure it's as prevalent as we're led to believe.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen. I remember celebrating my first job offer with a big firm, and I got some drinks at a fancy bar. A woman who was probably 2 years younger than me started chatting me up. She was a new law student. I was into her until it dawned on me that she was asking me financial status questions. She ended with "What car do you drive?" Yup. So I answered "a 1994 Toyota Tercel" and she literally quit talking to me and walked away without saying anything, spilling her drink as she looked for another dude in a suit.

I just think that it's not one of these "double standard dealbreakers" mentioned in this thread. Feel free to disagree, downvote me, and call me a feminist for disagreeing with you on one issue (it's been done here before). I simply fail to see that wealth-seeking gold diggers is an epidemic. If anything, women are attracted to wealth because it's an indicator of confidence, outgoing personality, and leading an interesting life.

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[–]theskepticalidealist 5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago* (12 children) | Copy Link

But, I'm pretty sure men think much more about penis sizes than women.

Well... sort of. I was about to reply to his post and say he is only half right about penis size... Women do shame men for having small penises, and you can't really do anything about it. But its really more of a problem for men that are embarrassingly small. But in regards to height, you can be considered "short" (unless you're in Asia and then everyone is shorter) if you're less than 5"8 and in some places even taller. I'm considered short and I'm 5"7, but its not like I'm 5"2 or less. The main difference though is almost universally women want a man that is at least taller than they are as opposed to being tall in comparison to other men, which is why I know I've at least got that box ticked if I'm hoping to attract a girl if she is a few inches shorter than I am. Otherwise I know that's going to be a mark against me, at best neutral, because it certainly isn't going to be a positive. Women however can be pretty much whatever body shape they like and you will find entire groups of men that are specifically attracted to whatever it is. Fat, skinny, big tits, tiny virtually no tits, gigantic swallow you tits, old, short, tall, etc. And they aren't settling, they genuinely prefer these traits. You can find them talking about it on porn websites, they will pay big money for sexual services like webcam performances and escorts when they could pick any other woman for the same money.

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[–]theskepticalidealist 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago* (10 children) | Copy Link

While I will agree that there is more diversity in men's attraction to different types of women, I'd say that there are some general societal trends that tend to be quite unrealistic and not very accommodating towards most female body types in the same way that there can be unrealistic expectations of men.

I'm glad you recognise the former, since it makes the latter quite ironic. Despite women being able to be found attractive pretty much no matter what, we are okay with them being convinced that they aren't rather than slapping some rhetorical sense into them. I have known what you'd consider below average attractive women that if I had had their experiences I'd think I was the biggest fucking stud on the planet. Yet they don't see it, they still believe they aren't attractive because they don't look like the magazines. Are they stupid or is society just okay with them believing they are victims despite all the evidence to the contrary? I WISH there were a demographic of women that were specifically attracted to my "flaws", but there aren't. Yet, I'm meant to feel like I have it better and easier than women do, because men are claimed to be so much more shallow than women are. The evidence if anything points to the opposite being the case.

It's men that have a much narrower path in what they must be to be considered attractive, and that the female's "unrealistic body type" isn't actually that unrealistic. The "unrealistic" body type for women is basically slim and toned. If a man looked like this he would be considered boyish, unmasculine, and child-like. To become slim and toned means cutting out the crap, or at least limiting it, with some light exercise. For men that want to get that "unrealistic body" they have to have a serious diet plan and spend a lot of time in the gym months of intensive training or years with less intensive workouts. IOW its not just losing weight and toning up a bit. Its losing weight and packing on muscle and in the right way.

Can we please start telling women to stop telling us they have a hard time, when they don't? Yes, many women might not get on the cover of a magazine or a perfume ad, but that doesn't mean they will find it hard to find men that will find them attractive. Most men aren't usually trying to compete with the hottest men on the planet, they are more realistic, they just want to be attractive. Women already have that, but it isnt enough. They compare themselves constantly to the top, that is why they say they are unhappy. They need a reality check and realise how good they actually have it, and they also need to stop blaming men for something that's the opposite of what they think it is.

[–]white_crust_delivery 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

Its more than just being athletic and thin/toned. There's a pretty substantial trend towards a 'feminine figure' with a certain 'hip to waist' ratio and larger breasts. Just because a few random corners of the internet have "BBW" fetishes doesn't mean that there isn't a general societal trend towards a very specific body type.

I think you misunderstand that its not really just going for an occasional jog that allows women to stay in shape and be attractive - women build muscle less easily and our bodies are more inclined to store extra fat (not saying we defy thermodynamics, but hormonal influences can make dieting harder for instance). It also seems like while there's more diversity in male attraction to different body types, there's also a lot more emphasis on body type in women. Men can often get by with other features like being funny or intelligent as a way of compensating for less physical attractiveness in ways that women can't do as easily. men might prefer intelligence/personality, but usually physical standards come first before considering those aspects.

For what its worth, and while I have no way of proving this that I'm comforatble with, I'm not just some fat girl who is bitching about who guys don't like her - I thin and 'athletic' like you describe but I also go to the gym for an hour and half every day and can't remember the last time I had legitimate 'junk food.'

[–]theskepticalidealist 5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago* (8 children) | Copy Link

Its more than just being athletic and thin/toned. There's a pretty substantial trend towards a 'feminine figure' with a certain 'hip to waist' ratio and larger breasts.

Some men might have a top tier "perfect body" preference, but its really not accurate that they would find a woman unattractive if they didn't have that. This is however the take home message you have got from this, and its false. The body type of women the kind of men you're talking about are really attracted to only need to be slim and toned, and not flat chested. They aren't stick thin, but aren't overweight. Having some tone is important because its not just lack of fat, its a tight form. But this is very easy to achieve compared with packing on serious muscle. Frankly the most common thing is not being overweight, not even toned. But that makes it sound like there aren't huge swathes of men that find overweight women attractive.

I think you misunderstand that its not really just going for an occasional jog that allows women to stay in shape and be attractive - women build muscle less easily and our bodies are more inclined to store extra fat (not saying we defy thermodynamics, but hormonal influences can make dieting harder for instance).

This is a predictable response, but I'm saying its easy to get the "unrealistic body" for women in comparison to the "unrealistic body" for men. Its hard to run a marathon in London, but its much harder to run a marathon through a rain forest. By comparison running the marathon in London is easy. I will still see feminists sometimes still reference stick thin anorexic models as the example of the "unrealistic body" women are pushed to have (even though men don't find this attractive), though ironically this is the easiest to achieve as it doesn't demand exercise at all or even a meal plan (just barely eat, there's no accounting for health).

It also seems like while there's more diversity in male attraction to different body types, there's also a lot more emphasis on body type in women.

In regards to a individual mans particular preference, perhaps. If you ignore all the men that actually are interested in you just because the one you're interested in happen to like some other body shape, you can't very well generalise about how men are more concerned with body type, so as to imply its so hard for women if they don't look that way. I know beautiful slim tall women are highly, highly unlikely to be interested in me. I don't claim that their emphasis on my physical qualities is true of "women", but we like to pretend that this is an acceptable interpretation when we switch the genders. I think its at least just as true for men as women, they just manifest slightly differently. And we do this despite the fact that the reality is women have it absurdly easy in comparison when it comes to finding men that will be attracted to them essentially no matter what they look like. Its kind of like rich people complaining about not having enough money, and also usually blaming poor people for it.

Men can often get by with other features like being funny or intelligent as a way of compensating for less physical attractiveness in ways that women can't do as easily. men might prefer intelligence/personality, but usually physical standards come first before considering those aspects.

What might be a surprise to women is that they can do very well with features that are not their body-type as well. Its not just men that can become vastly more attractive depending on their personality. The thing is, women don't need to "get by", and they don't want to just "get by". They don't seem to be happy unless they are able to compete with the most desirable women for the most desirable men. As I said, men don't usually have such unrealistic expectations, they just want to be attractive to more women. If I got the kind of attention the typical below average women gets, I'd think I was a massive stud. If they "got by" like I would interpret "getting by" I'd expect they would end up suicidally depressed going by how bad they will usually say they feel about themselves.

For what its worth, and while I have no way of proving this that I'm comforatble with, I'm not just some fat girl who is bitching about who guys don't like her - I thin and 'athletic' like you describe but I also go to the gym for an hour and half every day and can't remember the last time I had legitimate 'junk food.'

No problem, I don't really care I'm interested in what you're saying rather than making it personal. I'm interested in ideas.

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[–]white_crust_delivery -5 points-4 points-3 points 11 years ago* (9 children) | Copy Link

Dear god, what are you doing browsing downvoted comments on month old threads?

Anyways, if you had bothered to actually read the comment that you purged from the depths of this thread, you would realize that I openly admitted to a height preference in my comment. My point was that in spite of my height preference, I also have preferences that are very much within a person's control like physical fitness and intelligence (which I see as something that can be developed with effort in intellectual pursuits). So, its not like guys who are a 5 ft 5 are forever doomed to be alone forever. And guys also have preferences that are outside of a woman's control - things like hip to waist ratio, skin complexion, breast size, etc. can be improved with effort but are still very much determined by genetics. I'm not really about to judge men for having those preferences, but lets not pretend that everything men find attractive are traits that a woman has completely control over meanwhile women only care about genetically determined traits like height.

On penis size: from my (admittedly very limited) experience, its not nearly as important as most guys think it is. I won't say that I don't care at all, but generally I've found that a penis can very definitely be too big to a point of being uncomfortable or even painful (i'm a pretty petite person). Despite what porn would lead you to believe, you don't need to be 6 ft 4 with an 12 inch cock in order to satisfy women. In fact, sometimes I think men are more preoccupied with how big their penises are than women are.

Edit: I couldn't help but to browse your comment history - it seems like your a guy who is self conscious about his height and how well endowed he is. You literally have pages of comments bitching about how shallow all women are. Some free advice (that you'll probably ignore): rather than getting pissy/misogynistic/calling women cunts, why don't you actually try to improve yourself and make yourself more attractive (exercise, develop your own personality/interests, etc.). You might find that your lack of success with women isn't actually because of your height, but rather because you're misogynistic whiny asshole. If you spent half as much time improving yourself and actually talking to women as you did bitching about how all women hate short men, you might actually have some success with women.

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Cruise is relatively short for Hollywood. Pitt really isn't which is why you don't find his height being made fun of like Cruise. As you said and as I said the few short men that are found really attactive either hide their height (eg. Prince, or Cruise and in different ways), or they are widely superstar famous with other highly desirable masculine qualities. Tall is still masculine but short is unmascluline. It's also worth understanding that there's being short in relation to other men, and being short in relation to an individual woman. You might be short on average, but the woman you're interested in might be still shorter than you so it's much less of a negative and you're okay. So for example, as I am 5"7 I can attract women far easier when they are shorter than I am and I see a noticeable increase in attraction with women towards me when they are about 5"5 and shorter. For women taller than me, its so awkwardly difficult its not worth bothering as you're starting out with a handicap. Even being the same height is pushing it, many women say they want a man that is at least as tall as they are, when she is wearing heels. So in the case of being the same height, its likely considered neutral or still a negative trait.

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It's also worth noting that the attractiveness values they are using are an average, which can mask some interesting trends.

For instance, I don't recall where I read it, but I believe that there is more variance in the attractiveness that different women will assign to a particular man than the other way around - e.g. a woman with an average rating of 7/10 from a sample of guys is likely getting mostly 6s, 7s, and 8s, with a few outlying 4s, 5s, 9s, and 10s, while a man with an average rating of 7/10 is more likely to be getting a wider spread from 4-10 that averages to 7.

The tentative explanation for this is that physical feminine beauty standards are more strictly determined by culture, so there is more agreement between guys on what is generally attractive, whereas women are more attracted to their favored archetypes (rugged, clean-cut, hipster, etc.), so a man's attractiveness is more a function of whether he fits a particular woman's taste than whether he is "classically" good-looking.

Anyways, the way this might be influencing those charts is that many of the men who have an average of 2 are actually being rated a 1 by the 75% of women who aren't into their particular look and a 5 by the 25% whose taste they match (that's a somewhat extreme case, I'm just using it as an example and because it makes the math easy).

That would also explain the forward shift in messaging, as each woman is messaging the men she finds attractive, but the lower ratings from women who don't message those men drag their average down.

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The funny thing is that as this girl gets older, she's going to realize she made a terrible mistake. I know many women (and men, don't get me wrong) who decided that they were only going to date "10s", the kind of perfect physique, well dressed and self-important oaf that looks good at 10:30 at night. The problem is that they invariably cheat or fall apart. People whose sole focus is on themselves, either their career, their looks or their money have no time for anyone else.

She's going to turn 32, be single and see all of her friends getting married. Girl's night will consist of bitching about snoring and gushing about their new little family. She'll sit there and pound wine, smiling but secretly wishing she had the same 'issues.'

This is when they will marry the first guy who'll marry her. And he'll be a disaster. Either abuse or ambivalent, but it'll end in divorce. Last married but first divorced. This is how the story goes. Every group of friends has that person, and that snarkly little face makes me believe she's the girl who'll fall into that trap.

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Always with the double standards.

Comments

/s /s /s

Note: this is before I knew he was joking.

Title	Always with the double standards.
Author	GallowBoob
Upvotes	1293
Comments	429
Date	December 17, 2014 8:15 PM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/2plxcs/always_with_the_double_standards/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/always-with-the-double-standards.992007 https://theredarchive.com/post/992007