CMV: Men greatly over-complicate dating.

purplish_possum · 2023-06-18T15:01:13+00:00

just: "find a woman that matches your personality and have fun spending time with her."

Works great, if you're attractive enough.

Still_Attorney_5175 · 2023-06-18T12:30:14+00:00

You only have to "strategize" to get something if it is not something easy to get. Women think dating is not some rocket science because they literally get dates easily without any significant effort. Its the general lack of empathy like this that drives men to the red pill.

Happy_Nuclear_End · 2023-06-18T13:09:58+00:00

This post reeks of a no idea how dating is for man.

It's like the two lovers in a boat, while the woman just look at the landscape the men is rowing like a madman while in the same breath is singing and playing a instrument and then going back to row.

For the person who makes no effort is aways easy lol.

wtknight · 2023-06-18T14:50:11+00:00

Is it really any more complicated than just: "find a woman that matches your personality and have fun spending time with her."

Do you think that there is a woman out there who wants to spend time with every given man while he is in his current, unimproved state? That is what you don't seem to be perceiving - women have high expectations when it comes to men and, if the men whom they meet don't meet them, then they'd rather stay single or have casual sex with more attractive men who won't commit to them.

Of course, women eventually do want to settle down and they will unconsciously settle for "lesser men", which is why the sexlessness rate for men decreases as they get older. This doesn't help the young men who are complaining about being single now, however.

DutifulRye696 · 2023-06-18T13:38:04+00:00

Your average woman can get male attention easily, her issue is filtering through men who will be dangerous/abusive.

That's a huge issue that I don't have to deal with, and I have empathy for many of my female friends who've dealt with predatory men.

However, we also have our own issues to deal with: namely it's extremely difficult to get female attention in the first place.

Da_Famous_Anus · 2023-06-18T12:49:34+00:00

Basically because dating is easier for women. Of course YOU don't have to think about it.

TheCultOfGrogg · 2023-06-18T12:12:36+00:00

Are Quadratics and Calculus just over-complications of mathematics?

JumboJetz · 2023-06-18T12:22:59+00:00

Romantic connection and sex are major drives for people. Unlike most women, most men do not have people who just walk up and offer those things.

It’s also a terrifying prospect to ask someone for those things. Opens one up to ridicule, shame, reputation damage, emotional (and more rarely, physical) hurt. And society is getting even more shy and introverted over time I feel.

As such - a cottage industry around this fear men need to deal with to find connection has opened up.

I think you oversimplify. There are women who match a guys personality and he has fun spending time with who do not see him as a romantic or sexual prospect. So that just isn’t true that’s all a man needs to do.

Now the issue is that this industry to “help” men get over their fears to form a connection with someone - often has an incentive to make outrageous claims. To try to differentiate its offering to be “unique”. To offer men advice that differs from the norm so he thinks he has an edge. To cater to a variety of men - most of who, are not tall, rich and white.

As such the pickup industry has become 99% scam and charlatans.

bottleblank · 2023-06-18T12:43:19+00:00

Is it really any more complicated than just: "find a woman that matches your personality and have fun spending time with her." That's really what dating is.

The fact that men here blame women and western "degeneracy" for their problems is proof of how pathalogical their struggle is and how socially inept the average man is.

Let's take a look at the viewpoint of a man who might be inclined to look this up on the internet and try to form some kind of strategy:

They may be autistic or otherwise neurodiverse
They may have experienced bullying and abuse (potentially from girls and women)
They may have experienced a lot of social and/or romantic/sexual rejection
They may have poor self-esteem and low confidence
They may have no wish to mistreat women and, in fact, have a desire to love like nobody's ever loved before

So let's take these one by one:

They may be autistic or otherwise neurodiverse

Common (but not universal) traits of autism are a) weak ability to read and express themselves via body language, b) difficulty naturally communicating without active thought and effort, c) difficulty learning unspoken social rules, d) a propensity for compensating for these things via logical deduction and/or copying the behaviour of others, and e) a lack of experience by which to have built up the necessary knowledge to overcome these deficiencies.

This alone is sufficient to cause a man to act unusually, or to be rejected before he's even begun, and even to be branded "creepy".

He hasn't been able to have those experiences and so hasn't had the opportunity to repair his incomplete understanding, he hasn't been able to refine his behaviour, but he knows he needs to. So he seeks out help, instructions, logical steps to perform those behaviours and experience those situations without messing up and hurting somebody, because he knows from the past experience he does have that messing up and being responded to as though he's behaved offensively are common and likely outcomes.

But he faces conflicting advice, a million variables, every woman disagreeing on what's OK or not OK or what she prefers compared to another. He hears feminist messaging saying that X, Y, and Z are bad and should never be done, yet nothing about what he should do instead. He hears many stories about men getting dragged over the coals for seemingly small mistakes.

He doesn't want to fuck this up, so he wants to know exactly how not to fuck it up. Because fucking it up means bad consequences. Not just rejection and embarrassment, which he already doesn't want, but potentially a reputation or even accusations against him, socially or otherwise.

They may have experienced bullying and abuse (potentially from girls and women)

This presents potential trust issues, because their only experiences of women have been largely negative. Once again, they don't have the positive experiences to balance this out, to show them that there are good women out there. Which is only reinforced by coming to places like this and seeking advice, when uncaring, aggressive women actively fight their attempts to find help and resolution for these men's issues. It presents them with an apparent reality that women really are that hostile and suggests that they're going to need some strategy to avoid getting hurt (or ending up alone forever).

They may have experiences a lot of social and/or romantic/sexual rejection

This tells them that they're doing something wrong. They may not be actively doing something wrong and, even if they are, they may not be doing it consciously/intentionally, but whatever the cause, they feel unable to engage because people keep pushing them away. So they want to fix this, they want to understand what the correct behaviour is so that they can modify theirs to fit, so they can be part of society and do something with their innate human desires to become intimate with somebody. So, once again, they want to find help, understanding, strategy, some kind of path to "correct" behaviour.

They may have poor self-esteem and low confidence

This may be related to the previous three points in various ways, depending on the individual, but this can make them feel "lesser" or "left out", unable - again - to connect with others. It can make you feel as though you don't deserve to have friends, or a partner, and that nobody should ever want you around. This, obviously, presents a problem. So they try to figure out how to make themselves wanted. I think you can probably imagine that "red pill" fits in here, with advice to maximise looks, money, and status. It makes sense that if you have some kind of external gauge of success then you can objectively measure yourself against others and (in theory) determine that you do now deserve attention and social/romantic/sexual success, because you're "better than these other guys".

They may have no wish to mistreat women and, in fact, have a desire to love like nobody's ever loved before

Here's a big one. They feel as though they want to love and care for a woman, treat her as she wishes to be treated (or at least how it's said that she wants to be treated), they feel like a decent guy, they've never messed about with a woman, hurt a woman, abused a woman, they don't want to do those things. They hear things like "nice is a baseline", which would suggest that they're on the right track, that their want to be kind and caring and considerate, generous and protecting, all those things, that those are important, positive traits.

So when they hear a million stories of "my ex was a complete bastard" or "women are experiencing domestic abuse all the time", when they see the "bad boy" get the girl, they realise that something doesn't add up here. They grew up being told that nice is a virtue, that people appreciate niceness, that it's important to be nice, because the opposite is being bad, and being bad is harmful and hurtful. But here they are, single, lonely, confused, perhaps even bullied or abused for who they are and how they try to be, whilst many obviously, objectively harmful men are getting exactly what they want (and reproducing, creating more potentially "bad men").

It doesn't even have to be as extreme as DV, it can be as simple as comparing against feminist cries for "correct" behaviour from men. Our man may hear "do not approach", "affirmative consent", "never touch unless explicitly invited to", and so on, but see in the real world that successful men don't act this way, that they break these rules all the time. So if these men are breaking the rules, they must be bad, right? That makes them bad people, bad men, acting against the wishes of women.

That, in the eyes of a man stuck in this situation, does make those other guys "assholes". The women dating those other men might not think so, they might absolutely love it, but that's not what the guy who's struggling was told. So he's the good guy. He's doing what he's told. He doesn't want to offend or upset or cause a woman to feel violated. So why do they not like him? Why do they only like these "asshole" guys who keep breaking all of these important rules?

purplish_possum · 2023-06-18T14:58:40+00:00

Dating is just normal human interaction, I don't get why so many men here treat it like it's rocket science.

They're trying to avoid having to admit that it's all about looks.

Updawg145 · 2023-06-18T16:10:01+00:00

I mean this is just grossly out of touch with the realities of dating, especially in the West. "Normal human interaction" is such an oversimplification. Competition, rejection, changing social dynamics, female entitlement, etc are all also part of "normal human interaction". Your view on dating is as out of touch as those rich people telling people the only reason they're poor is because they buy too much avocado toast. "I just woke up one day and had money, you poors are just overcomplicating it! Just have money!" that's basically how you sound.

Shwaziland · 2023-06-18T12:39:34+00:00

You have your order swapped. Men “over-complicate” dating because they try just being themselves, get rejected consistently, look around as to why, then discover TRP.

offtable · 2023-06-18T15:04:19+00:00

Men adapt. If you think dating is overcomplicated, its because women made it so.

Safinated · 2023-06-18T15:22:41+00:00

No, there are greater obstacles for men, most notably the female libido, the male libido, and male aggressiveness

frappuccinoCoin · 2023-06-18T15:48:22+00:00

Let them eat cake

Pathosgrim · 2023-06-18T12:18:50+00:00

It takes two to tango

YetAnotherCommenter · 2023-06-18T12:59:24+00:00

I think you're overlooking the elephant in the room.

TRP is disproportionately attractive to neuroatypical men (typically 'spergs). For them, it is NOT normal, simple, natural human interaction. Neuroatypicals, by nature, socialize atypically to neurotypicals. This makes them feel "weird" to neurotypicals.

to the point where alot of men use wierd techincal terms like: cold-approach, ONS, FWB and many more.

You're essentially shaming men-who-need-to-systemize for needing to systemize.

Is it really any more complicated than just: "find a woman that matches your personality and have fun spending time with her." That's really what dating is.

You're presumably both a woman and neurotypical. You have no idea how things are for men, let alone neuroatypical men. To borrow SJW terms, check your privilege.

Every red-piller or approaching "expert" I've seen thus far is an obvious socially-deprived person.

You always frame it as socially "deprived" or socially "maladaptive" or "wrong" or "diseased" in some way. Its not wrong, its just atypical like red hair is. You are essentially trying to STOP socially atypical people from learning how to fit in.

They need less time watching Red-pill videos from their basement and more time talking to women.

This isn't easy to do in a world where 'spergy/atypical men are at genuine risk of being accused of being creepy for merely trying to strike up a conversation.

Carbon8348 · 2023-06-18T13:52:37+00:00

Men dont overcomplicate it, it's just much simpler for women.

Plenty of studies have shown that women date men are their level: money, looks, height, status and personality wise.

Links?

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caobozo · 2023-06-18T13:10:38+00:00

it's not men, it's a very certain subset of men

1softboy4mommy · 2023-06-18T19:06:34+00:00

Yeah, there's no secret key because everone is different. But women don't have to initiate anything because men do that themselves. So women at least don't have to worry about saying some weird shit that inexperienced man can say and embarrasing themselves. Dating is at least less stressful for women

DerayRevan · 2023-06-18T13:23:45+00:00

Basically because men are much hornier

Therefore makes women more selective

Therefore creates competition

Therefore makes it so much hard getting a girl no matter your age,race,socioeconomic lvl,country or whatever

It's not rocket science but it has created the illusion that it is thanks to social media,birth control,women becoming more educated

Also you don't need to find a woman who matches your personality, you just made it more complicated

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Anxious-Tailor-7182 · 2023-06-18T12:45:53+00:00

Absolutely, can confirm as a man who did stupid overcomplicated shit in the past.

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Gilmoregirlin · 2023-06-18T13:33:49+00:00

The reality is because many don’t know how to have normal human interaction outside of dating. And when you encourage them to do so, like volunteer your time, get yourself offline and out of the house then don’t see how that is the issue. I think of that recent post by a CEO saying if you are single you should not be spending a night siting in your house.

johnmaguire1994 · 2023-06-18T18:26:24+00:00

im sorry but its not just "human interaction". your a girl so therefore you will never understand how seduction is for a guy. we are the ones to have to initiate, escalate, and close. from your perspective its human interaction, but from the guys view these are all skills we have to learn. this is exactly why nobody takes dating advice from women, you have no idea the work a guy has to do to get laid....

Omegeddon · 2023-06-18T19:11:37+00:00

Horrifically native take but props on having the balls to post it i guess

jpla86 · 2023-06-18T22:17:07+00:00

It may seem like men over-complicate dating but that's because dating for men is complicated as a WHOLE. We have to do the approach and put our self-esteem on the line. We have to initiate conversations and keep it interesting or else she'll immediately lose interest. It doesn't take much for a woman to lose interest in a man.

Cethlinnstooth · 2023-06-19T09:01:05+00:00

A lot of guys aren't good at ordinary human interaction but like to think they are. Dating is the first and only wakeup call for many of them and they like to blame anything at all rather than themselves.

RedBullfrog · 2023-06-19T12:46:36+00:00

There is this strange belief that succesfully dating comes by itself in some magic way. "Just be yourself", "just find a woman who matches your personality" is all rubbish. Sure, some might be lucky and find a woman, but there won't be many choices and far between them.
The same goes for the opposite. Men who believe they will never find a woman and just give up. In my eyes these guys are lazy and spoiled.

Succesful dating takes practice. It takes skills. I'm not talking about PUA skills but social skills, confidence, charisma. To dare being masculine in a natural way. One way to begin building that, is using strategies. They are guidelines to get men going. Get them out of the basement and online forums. At some point they hopefully have developed enough to not need strategies and can stand on their own feet. What is wrong with that?

I suspect you spend a lot of time online and not so much out on the dating market since you say all RP men are socially-deprieved. Go to any club, bar social gathering. Every guy you see who is comfortable around women, who gets approached, you gets attention, is RP in greater or lesser degreee. They didn't just wake up one day and get attention from women. They have worked on it, and that is basically what the RP is all about.

LibertaliaInTheNorth · 2023-06-19T15:15:43+00:00

Sounds like someone who doesn’t have to make any effort 🤨

DicamVeritatem · 2023-06-20T22:27:34+00:00

The OP has described a dating strategy that is quite workable for both women and the top 10% of men.

For the vast majority of men, dating is work. Just being yourself, letting things just magically happen all by themselves, is a recipe for inceldom.

Title	CMV: Men greatly over-complicate dating.
Author	Eternal-Arguement
Upvotes	0
Comments	424
Date	June 18, 2023 11:10 AM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/14chtrl/cmv_men_greatly_overcomplicate_dating/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/cmv-men-greatly-over-complicate-dating.1222637 https://theredarchive.com/post/1222637

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