[Q4BP] - Do you support financial abortions?

DebatePony · 2018-07-09T20:27:52+00:00

Yes, however I believe that they need to be done and finalized four weeks before the window of legal abortion closes.

GasTheBlues · 2018-07-09T22:06:42+00:00

No. Financial abortion does not even the playing field between the two sexes and it's impractical to enforce. When a woman choose to have an abortion the man gets the equal (no child) benefits from it. It's the actual choice that biologically cannot be equal.

hiso_hiso · 2018-07-09T20:31:08+00:00

if there are reasonable requirements/limits (like what DebatePony said) and still a means for the child in question to receive adequate care, then sure.

SpaceWhiskey · 2018-07-09T21:10:15+00:00

Only in countries with strong social safety nets. And as I’ve seen someone else suggest in here before, ideally this agreement would be made before sex. Also, it’s situational, there is no one blanket answer to this. If a man has protected sex with a woman, doesn’t see her again for ten years, then out of nowhere is hit with a bill for child support for a kid he didn’t even know existed, I think there’s an argument to be made for him not owing the money. But with guys who refuse to use condoms or promise to be there as a father only to abandon the mother after the window for abortion has passed, yeah that guy owes child support.

I hesitate to even participate in this thread as I’ve participated in roughly ten billion arguments about this over the years and it’s exhausting. But I guess I’ll just never get over the disconnect some guys have in thinking giving birth or having an abortion is somehow on par with a man’s ability to literally walk away from the situation. It is disgustingly easy to avoid child support payments if you’re stubborn enough.

CatchPhraze · 2018-07-09T20:31:06+00:00

I'm a purpleish pill, but very blue. I say that is more then fair as long they do it within one month of learning about the pregnancy and/or birth to prevent changing their minds based on the woman's actions (Like breaking up). I'm also for purposely becoming pregnant or obscuring the fact you are from the other person as a punishable offence where the woman would need to go through a class to teach equality and the importance of respecting men's autonomy in much the same way first and light time domestic abusers often are required to go through an anger management and sexism class.

I support both genders reproductive rights and believe both genders owe honesty to their sexual partners about their actions.

killallthenarcs · 2018-07-10T02:03:38+00:00

I don't support financial abortions for the same reason i don't support infanticide or compulsory paying a woman child support before the baby is actually born. That kid has rights that a fetus doesn't, financial support should be one of them. A woman's failure to abort should not remove rights from a future living child.

I do, however, for what it is worth, feel that there should be more options for making a little more sure that child support actually benefits the child in a way normal to the class and culture of the paying parent. . It would be an administrative nightmare to do this while maintaining reasonable privacy for both parents but I think worth it. I think a paying parent who stays up to date in their payments and is making a significant amount of contribution should be able to some extent dictate that a certain proportion of money be set aside as provision for health care, a certain amount for current educational needs, a certain amount for future educational needs, a certain amount for basic foodstuffs, a certain amount to contribute to housing costs, a certain amount for cultural needs such as wedding expenses, a certain amount for other things deemed reasonable for that culture and class... for example some cultures and classes it is very normal to buy a car for a kid when they are old enough, other cultures and classes it might be normal to pay for expensive sports or regular holidays etc. This would be far more do-able now than it was when child support was first invented.

Lyanina · 2018-07-09T20:44:48+00:00

Can you explain why you only support one?

"Men and women are different." There is no reason for abortion to be "fair." "Financial abortion" is a guy signing a piece of paper to walk away from a pregnancy. Actual abortion is not. Abortion prevents the child from existing. "Financial abortion" prevents the existing child from receiving the financial support of both parents. The two situations are so different I don't see what's confusing about supporting one but not the other. Would you be very confused if someone who was pro-life because abortion is murder didn't feel exactly the same about "financial abortion"?

men can abstain, or use birth control, but these obviously also apply to women

Ignoring the fact that pregnancy takes place in her body. If men could get pregnant, they could abort.

Do you support financial abortions?

No (as in, not post-conception), but I wouldn't be opposed to something like the suggestion in sublimemongrel's post from a while back.

SkookumTree · 2018-07-09T22:32:10+00:00

Absolutely not. Pregnancy and childbirth are different from financial support. Men don't have to support another human being in their bodies and endure the risks and pain of pregnancy and childbirth. If such a thing was legal, I'd support a contract that allowed men to abdicate all paternal rights - signed before the sex act, notarized, and filed at the local courthouse. The identity of the man and the woman would be public record. IIRC in Canada they have such forms, designed for informal sperm donation. It should not be something that can be done in the heat of the moment during a one night stand. It needs to be very formal and serious.

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VoyageOfTheBeagle · 2018-07-10T00:02:09+00:00

Absolutely. Nobody should be forced to raise a child they don't want.

yasee · 2018-07-10T02:18:49+00:00

wish people wouldn't call it that. I like the idea in theory but I've never seen a satisfactory explanation of how it would work fairly in practice

Noxin__Nixon · 2018-07-10T03:13:31+00:00

Define exactly what you mean by "financial abortions" first

BillyBobNobSock · 2018-07-10T03:47:24+00:00

You're asking the wrong question. Financial abortion shouldn't be necessary. Abortion shouldn't be necessary, and should be illegal outside extenuating circumstances. Pregnancy should only be happening when both partners actually want it, which means they both need real, effective contraceptive methods.

Men have NO effective contraception. Condoms have an 18% failure rate over 1 year. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birth_control

They also spoil sex for both partners and are highly inconvenient. I've broken condoms myself, more than once. A vasectomy is permanent and has a good chance of giving you chronic pain for the rest of your life. It's not a practical option unless you've already had all the children you want to and are willing to risk chronic pain. That's it. That's the end of the list of options for males. No, I'm not even going to entertain the "don't have sex then" suggestion, because it's moronic and impractical.

Women have real choices over pregnancy (IUD/depo injection/pill/morning after etc), that are actually reliable (though most options come with side effects), they have the option to have an abortion, they could go with adoption. She has every option conceivable, and can back out at any point. Men have none of these options. None.

Currently men are forced to trust women to use some form of birth control no matter what the man does, because his options are ineffective (condoms have an 18% failure rate!). And she can just lie. Or change her mind. Without consequence. It isn't right. That the father is then held responsible, and forced into life long commitments (not limited to financial!), possibly with a woman he would never choose to have a child with, for decisions that aren't his, is disgraceful. Ever hear the phrase "Tax without representation"?

Choosing to have sex with someone is not the same as choosing to have a child with them. That's already a reality for women, but not for men, for men it's a roll of the dice.

What we need, is proper male contraception, what we need is called Vasalgel. It's reliable, one super cheap injection lasts 10 years+, it's easily reversible, it's convenient, it doesn't ruin sex and it has no side effects. Let us actually control our own reproduction, and the whole problem goes away overnight because the unwanted pregnancy will not happen in the first place. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reversible_inhibition_of_sperm_under_guidance

Men should not be forced into life long commitments against their will. You're body, you're choice? Yeah I can see the reasoning, but men need to be able to say that - and that's what Vasalgel will give us. The bonus is the pregnancy gets vetoed, instead of having to undo it with an abortion. It's the best solution.

When both partners have to make the yes decision to pregnancy (not just sex!) THEN we'll be getting somewhere.

JezebeltheQueen5656 · 2018-07-10T00:31:03+00:00

no Pill. woman.

pro-abortion. you can make abortion illegal but you will never prevent it from happening (it will be done "underground", in secret. women have been helping each other abort since time immemorial).

males should be free to walk away. if women arent pressured to keep the baby, neither should men.

hematomatoed · 2018-07-09T20:51:36+00:00

I do not support financial abortions.

While I recognize that it unfair that a woman can abrogate her responsibility and a man can not, there are simply always going to be unfair things in life.

And a child's financial security outweighs unfairness to a man who wants consequence-free sex, every time.

Eartherry · 2018-07-10T03:45:56+00:00

If financial abortion is supposed to be an equal response to the fact that women are able to choose what happens when pregnant it does a bad job. The disproportionate shifting of all responsibility to the woman isn't at all equal to just the financial responsibility a man faces.

On a biological level, the only equivalent is if he had his own way to prevent himself from getting anyone pregnant. Since the technology doesn't exist yet all he can do to protect himself from supporting children he doesn't want is to abstain from sex altogether. It's his only option.

nemma88 · 2018-07-09T22:11:50+00:00

I would if;

Couples signed plans for abortion beforehand is more ideal.
ONS get up to something like 16 weeks. In areas where abortion costs, they would be liable for half the bill ofc.
Social welfare would take over those cases.

Naturally it has it's own problems. There is no way you can fit a legal battle which the shittiest persons are going to do into an abortion window.

I don't think it'll have a significant affect, it will protect innocent parties. Someone here mentioned it's all a bit Orwellian, and yes, protection will always come by maintaining less privacy. It's not ideal, it's the only way anything will change though.

TyphosBoethian · 2018-07-10T01:14:47+00:00

Yes I support it. Men should have a say in whether they want to have a kid and raise it.

mgtow_1 · 2018-07-10T07:18:37+00:00

I think the standard should be no parental liability unless agreed to before sex. Let everyone make their decisions before sex happens and everyone knows what is legally at stake. If the stakes are too high then don't have sex.

SlimLovin · 2018-07-10T14:02:05+00:00

Freethetreees · 2018-07-10T16:22:25+00:00

I'd be ok with it, but only if the contract is signed BEFORE sex. This way women don't have to fuck would-be deadbeat dad's. Plus this might change men's minds about the whole thing, because they prioritize their dick feels over everything else. So the men who are insistent upon financial abortion (aka selfish misogynists) won't be getting laid, which is a good thing.

sloppypoppy · 2018-07-11T14:43:38+00:00

Aren't we talking about parental abandonment here? "Financial Abortion" seems like a misnomer.

ElbowStrike · 2018-07-09T21:48:27+00:00

Yes. It will be a great disincentive for ill-intentioned girls and women to have happy little "accidents" where they "forget" to take their birth control.

wtknight · 2018-07-09T22:08:21+00:00

Do you support financial abortions?

No, I don't support financial abortions.

If you don't, but do support abortions, can you explain why you only support one?

Because, I find the idea of telling women what to do with their own bodies distasteful. On the other hand, I don't mind telling a father that he is partially financially responsible for a child once that child is alive in the world, because the alternatives are either starving children, taking away a child from its biological parent, or taxpayers who played no part in the conception of a child footing the bill for supporting children.

Katinka-pie · 2018-07-10T06:54:29+00:00

If the dude didn't wear a condom and came inside her he doesn't get a way out. If he took measures to prevent a pregnancy, but accidents happen he can opt out in the first month of the pregnancy.

azngirl7689 · 2018-07-10T04:02:36+00:00

No. If some idiot nuts in a woman condom free and she keeps it, tough shit. Maybe should’ve used some protection. I don’t feel sorry for irresponsible people.

Yonderlander · 2018-07-10T13:03:27+00:00

Because they are completely and utterly different things. I'm pro-choice but I don't think I could go through the trauma of abortion, therefore the whole argument is invalid for me. Financial support would in no way influence whether I decided to have an abortion or not.

If it were to become a reality, at the bare minimum the woman's stance on abortion, ie whether they would be willing to have one, would have to be legally confirmed before sex took place.

It would also be even harder to use birth control, if only one partner had pressure to use it. Accidental pregnancies would soar.

It's just a man-baby have your cake and eat it fantasy.

DitaVonCleese · 2018-07-10T18:08:06+00:00

no. when consenting to sex you also consent to it's consequences. like, sorry, but sex is literally there for us to procreate so you can't be mad if (even with necessary precautions) life found a way and suddenly there is a baby.

sex is not a "need" for anyone - if you don't trust your partner or your contraceptive methods, and you don't wand to end up with a baby then don't have it.

when having sex my boyfriend consents to the possibility of financial support. I consent to either pregnancy (including possible complications) or abortion (again, including possible complications) and having to bring up the baby by myself (if he didnt want it but i did) and also financial support. I think women have it way worse.

Title	[Q4BP] - Do you support financial abortions?
Author	GasTheBlues
Upvotes	10
Comments	415
Date	July 9, 2018 8:18 PM UTC (8 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/8xfqso/q4bp_do_you_support_financial_abortions/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/q4bp-do-you-support-financial-abortions.261596 https://theredarchive.com/post/261596

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