There's a difference between falling for a long term friend gradually, and befriending a woman you have a crush/lust after in the sole hope that your "friendship" will make her sleep with you.

sublimemongrel · 2024-07-13T00:43:22+00:00

I don’t hate Bobby from botany. I’d have never had male friends if there weren’t Bobby’s in the world. I also don’t judge a guy for wanting to be friends first to test the waters and gauge interest. Approaching is hard and many Bobby’s who shot their shot with me were fine just being friends if I wasn’t into it after they finally expressed their feelings. I don’t think it was ever malicious or creepy. Just insecure/scared young men not wanting to put themselves out there immediately with girls they have massive crushes on. Not weird at all to me and completely understandable

OtPayOkerSmay · 2024-07-12T23:39:30+00:00

"Be her friend first," which is common advice women will give clueless men, implies becoming platonic friends with a woman you want to date. If this is so wrong, then women need to accept some of the blame for their part in spreading this advice.

Freethinker312 · 2024-07-12T22:27:50+00:00

and befriending a woman you have a crush/lust after in the sole hope that your "friendship" will make her sleep with you. Lying to get into someone's pants or get resources is despicable.

It doesn't have to be just for sex though and it doesn't have to be lying either. A man may like her and see her as a potential partner, and by being friends he can get to know her better, discover whether he really enjoys her presence and whether they are compatible. Becoming friends often also isn't a deliberate decision but something that grows over time.

Ppdebatesomental · 2024-07-12T23:11:25+00:00

Meh, no harm no foul imho. It’s not creepy for a guy to have sexual interest, even Botany Bobby. If it doesn’t work out, she might have a friend who is cuter and that you do have lots in common with.

BUT..and these are big..I have two recommendations.

Don’t do this if you can’t do it without getting oneitis. It will probably just hurt you in the long run, waste your time, hurt your chances with others in the group and e even more likely to scare her off.

Also don’t do this if you can’t hide rejection well. You can kid around, flirt, maintain some plausible deniability, but if you get shot down, pass it off as a joke and ask about her hotter friend.

antarctica6 · 2024-07-12T22:42:57+00:00

I totally agree.

Now as a woman, how would you be able to tell the difference?

Because Bob "inserting" himself into Liz's life and "weaseling" into a friend group is entirely a matter of perspective. That perspective is entirely dependent on whether or not Liz is attracted to Bob in the first place.

If it worked out, Liz would say that Bob entered her life (not inserted/weaseled) and that it “just happened.” A dozen different jumps in conclusion and mindreading needs to happen for the opposite to be true.

Matty could have meticulously planned to enter Martha's life (weaseled in) because he knew that they were both into slam poetry, befriend her, and then ask her out. But Martha liked him, so this isn't creep behavior.

See the pattern here?

The approach literally doesn't matter. Being close friends vs. mutual friends vs. acquaintances etc. first doesn't matter. All that matters is that she's into you.

bluestjuice · 2024-07-12T22:16:26+00:00

I befriended a girl who I had a crush on.

Had nothing much in common with her when we started talking.

Later I got over the crush, learned she had a boyfriend quite soon (although it still seems weird the number of guys who told me the "if she is single you are competing with all the men, but if she has a bf you are just competing with one man" thingie, although it was after I had cleared my head about the crush I had)

Als turned out we had a lot in common we didnt know about.

And I no longer want to get in her pants, I even told her I used to have a crush on her in college.

So, I think Liz is getting a little too dramatic if Bob has done nothing wierd.

AcephalicDude · 2024-07-12T22:17:10+00:00

I get what you're saying and I agree in principle, but in practice it can be really hard to tell whether someone is or isn't genuinely trying to be your friend. It sounds like it would require some mind-reading unless there are some really painfully-obvious signs.

Like, have you ever watched the show Last Man On Earth? There is this very funny scene where Will Forte's character is pretending that The Shawshank Redemption is his favorite movie, immediately after the love interest reveals that it's her favorite movie, it's hilarious in that painfully awkward sort of way. I think that's the kind of thing you would need to experience to really be justified in calling this sort of thing out.

Zabadoodude · 2024-07-13T00:22:06+00:00

If he lies his way into being your best friend or calls you a bitch for not wanting to date you, that's not right.

But talking more with someone you like is normal and how most relationships start. The mistake friendzoned guys make is that they don't know how to properly flirt and escalate the interaction to something romantic/sexual. Or they can't read the soft rejection they might receive when they do. They will engage in completely platonic conversations then go far the other way and declare their undying love for a woman they've platonicly hung out with occasionally. They aren't bad people for this, and I don't understand the hate. They're just bad at flirting.

Quiet_Firefighter_65 · 2024-07-13T04:55:32+00:00

The meme here is that the latter situation almost never happens, the guy just has to convince you that he hasn't had these feelings this entire time.

K4matayon · 2024-07-13T11:59:57+00:00

I feel like this is just another spin on the flirt vs harassment thing, if a handsome guy does it, it comes across as flirt and if it's an ugly guy he's a creep who should get out of women's sight. In a similar way, you will never know what the intentions behind a guy who befriends you are, what you are describing in your title and your post sound wildly different, in your title it's long term friendship as if there's some implied threshold of time after which it's acceptable for feelings to form and the only other option is preying on a woman by making her think she's your friend, whereas

You met Emily at a slam poetry club and you two bonded over your love for poetry and now you wanna see if she likes you too? Go ahead dude.

this can probably happen in one day. You won't know if this guy liked you at first sight or only after you started talking he developed feelings but the only thing that's going to differ from a woman's point of view is whether the feeling is mutual. If it's mutual obviously she won't mind her intentions, if it's mutual I'm sure it's gonna bother her nonetheless.

There's one more problem with this way of thinking that I want to address which is this implication that it has to be one or the other, the guy will see you once and he's either in love or not, just from looks no talking, no getting to know each other no nothing and if he approaches you he's either for sure looking to smash or for sure not. That's just not how it works and you can become attracted to people after spending time with them, it's natural, I'm sorry your friendship didn't work out but you're also not entitled to men not developing feelings for you so it is what it is, it's a shitty situation for both people.

nofaplove-it · 2024-07-13T00:08:56+00:00

Is it just me or is guy 3 really not that much different than guys 1 and 2. She just met guy 3 at school instead of some hobby lmao.

SupportRemarkable583 · 2024-07-12T22:16:49+00:00

So you're saying don't become friends with women first when about 80 percent of the women on this sub say otherwise. Hell some say go get hobbies to meet women. So which one is it?

Dry-Ad3452 · 2024-07-13T01:18:49+00:00

I don't disagree with any of this. Make your intentions known, don't obscure things.

I will give one personal reason as to why *some* men go the "friend" route when pursuing a woman: they get advice from fellow women. No, seriously. I once had a big crush on a coworker and a woman I confided with told me to "just be her friend, because it's how I met my husband!" So I proceeded to befriend her and she viewed me as...a friend. Certainly not as a romantic interest.

Now don't get me wrong, I never stopped being her friend or did anything nasty or crap like that. But it was disheartening to receive advice for something so counterintuitive to which I was longing for.

McTitty3000 · 2024-07-13T03:26:36+00:00

So many women will treat it like the same thing, and so many women will do the whole "be her friend first " thing and regurgitate that point, so they have to accept some responsibility in terms of pushing that narrative.

I will say this to all the guys though, whether you think she's hot and you want to take her out right away or if it is a platonic friendship that gradually turns into attraction, if the feeling is not reciprocated cut your losses and move on to somebody who wants you

SlashCo80 · 2024-07-13T09:15:18+00:00

So what would be the correct answer when a guy likes a woman he isn't friends with yet? Letting her know right away and asking her on a date? Many women will say that is also creepy because "he doesn't care about her as a person and obviously just wants sex" or something.

BCRE8TVE · 2024-07-14T02:23:08+00:00

You're not wrong, but this essentially boils down to telling men "you have no agency, no choice, and no control over who you get to be in a relationship with, women want to fall in love with friends naturally over the long term, but there is nothing you can do to make use of this, the odds of any one woman falling in love with you through genuine friendship is incredibly low, and you can't be friends with all of them to increase the odds, so men you just have to stop pushing, wait, and pray to God that a woman falls in love with you because otherwise you will die single."

This could easily be resolved if there were some socially acceptable method of dating and courting like there was in the past, with some kind of socially acceptable script or role to play where men can shoot their shot in an acceptable way, and women can respond with an acceptable script or role to say yes or no without brutally rejecting the guy, and then people move on if it doesn't work.

The other solution to help this situation would be if women asked men out half as often as men ask women out, because as it stands if a guy is not in the top 5% of most attractive men and doesn't ask women out, he will die single. This is the single simplest most straightforward solution women could easily adopt en masse that would significantly reduce all the dating issues between men and women, but for some reason it's the one thing that the vast majority of women refuse to do. They want equality in all the ways that benefit them, but still want traditional dating roles where the man approaches, the man asks, the man takes all the risks, the man faces rejection over and over again, and the woman reaps the benefits.

Maybe we should stop blaming men for doing the best they can to play the game by the rules women force on them, and start recognizing that the rules of dating women force on men are shit and are causing all these issues.

DarayRaven · 2024-07-12T22:07:53+00:00

Like you bonded with Martha aka Matty over Dungeons & Dragons, and find her really cute? Normal. Not creepy at all.

You met Emily at a slam poetry club and you two bonded over your love for poetry and now you wanna see if she likes you too? Go ahead dude.

But you are Bobby from Botany, having a crush on Liz from Statistics, dont have the guts to ask her out, but have weaseled your way into her friend group?

So what Bobby a creep is he doesn't have a common hobbie with the woman he likes ?

Wyerie · 2024-07-13T00:13:15+00:00

I'm not sure men become friends as a strategy, lying to get into someone's pants. More likely, they become friends because they like someone, and the way men's minds work, liking someone becomes wanting to have a sexual relationship with them. Liking someone and sex are very closely related for men, whereas women seem to be able to draw clear boundaries keeping the two things distinct.

shadowrangerfs · 2024-07-14T10:44:23+00:00

How do you know the difference between the first guy and the third guy?

alebruto · 2024-07-12T23:54:52+00:00

The hatred and contempt of this sub is for all of them.

Basically, the term "friendzone" is simplified by bluepill women, always with the interpretation that attributes the most vile motivation possible to the man:

"a man who dehumanizes women and pretended to be friends with a woman to get sex";
"a man who wanted to trade kindness in exchange for a blowjob, but then got angry when the blowjob was denied";

What all these men have in common is that they are not physically attractive enough, hence the interpretation that their motivations are bad. It is ironic that when some of these men increase their income and gain some muscles, then they are not so bad, then they are not the maniacs they were considered before, but rather become "husband material".

The truth is that it was never about the man or how he behaves, but rather about how the woman wants to see him, judging the man's personality and character based on how attractive he is.

bluestjuice · 2024-07-12T22:27:48+00:00

Mostly I agree with you, with the caveat that sometimes those boundaries are a little fuzzier than would be convenient. And sometimes people do move on from crushes and go on to become real friends, which is always nice too.

At the end of the day I just advocate for being as honest as possible and as compassionate as possible, and building relationships with people you get along well with and admire.

DBEternal · 2024-07-13T05:01:36+00:00

women will approach you and try to get in your space(s) if they find you sexable. they will tell you they find you sexable, they will treat you like a guy is normally expected to "court" a woman

little known fact

it's not wrong. all these guys crying about being lonely. if they were sexable, a woman would be telling you so.

Ok_Landscape_592 · 2024-07-13T05:31:47+00:00

Does it matter? Either way the woman is disgusted even if one is clearly more disgusting.

Flightlessbirbz · 2024-07-13T12:33:31+00:00

I mean if Bobby would just realize there’s no guarantee Liz will be interested and not call her a bitch if she’s not, I don’t think it’s so awful to try to get into her friend group and expand his social circle. Because who knows, maybe she’ll be interested, if she’s not, maybe her friend is, or maybe he meets his best friend in that group. The key is not to be too attached to an outcome, don’t become her close friend before making a move, and don’t act like she owes you more than niceness in return for your niceness.

LongDongOfMojave776 · 2024-07-14T11:20:38+00:00

The main difference between the two is whether or not the dude succeeds in getting with the girl in question or not. Literally the only difference. If he succeeds it's a cute love story. If he doesn't he's a creep. And that mostly boils down to looks and the ability to escalate, his self esteem and how he handles rejection

Individual_Speech_10 · 2024-07-16T17:54:26+00:00

There is a layer to this that you are missing. The people that say this kind of stuff can't fathom the first scenario you described happening. These people are incapable of developing feelings for someone over time and must want to bang someone immediately upon meeting them and if they don't they will never like them. And they assume that everyone else is also like this.

No-Rough-7390 · 2024-07-12T22:42:02+00:00

Since most men find most women attractive, does this mean they should only befriend uggos?

berichorbeburied · 2024-07-12T23:28:34+00:00

Well let me preface.

At first before I got to know my bestfriend as a person I actually hated her. Because of how cold and distant and like stuck up/superiority complex she was etc.

I literally talked to her on accident and was actually clicked with her friend. Who had a boyfriend but we grew a bond.

It wasn’t until she started joining us that I realized all three of us were the same. And that I actually got along with her.

She actually liked my personality from the get go. She thought I was funny and charismatic and different and I always stood out and created a war like atmosphere of drama in my wake.

ATP of my life I can honestly say I was demisexual.

I was always super sexual but the women that I actually tried to fuck or fucked we’re only women that I was emotionally connected/bonded to. Or that I loved etc.

That only stopped recently like this year.

But at that time. Once I got emotionally connected to her and started loving and caring about her. That’s when a switch flipped and I was sexually attracted to her.

I told her this years ago. And she kind of freaked out/was confused.

But idk she stayed in contact with me.

Then she tried to friendzone me. But like I had to fight the friendzone.

I even was going to take the l and lose the friendship. I told her we didn’t have to be friends. Like I respect it if she has no feelings towards me.

She was like oh so because I don’t want to have sex with you that means we can’t be friends.

So I had to explain myself.

I told her I’ll be friends it’s just I’m going to act different. But you might not like that.

Anyway I over explained myself.

But actually before she tried to friendzone mean we already crossed the friendship barrier by having consensual sexuality happen between us.

So maybe that was her form of a shit test idk.

Anyway I fought the friendzone and won. And many sexuality related things happened after that.

But that preface was to explain how my path lines up with what you deem is “acceptable”

So it’s not going to make sense.

But I’m going to defend the opposite direction even though I’ve never done it just off of principle.

If someone is sexually attracted to someone but they want to get to know them first or be their friend first theirs nothing wrong with that.

Somebody might have a plan to first check off her checklist of friendship or getting to know her first.

Some people aren’t ready but want to keep the woman they are attracted to in orbit.

Theirs nothing inherently wrong with these strategies.

Their millions of ways to skin a cat.

And if she’s not interested. She’s not interested.

Me personally it doesn’t apply to me.

Being her bestfriend actually made being sexual and flirting almost impossible.

Luckily I made it through that fire.

But still that strategy wouldn’t be ideal with All that went through.

That’s genuinely my bestfriend. For better or worse.

Same personality. Same “language”. We cheer each other up. Understand eachother.

To the point I’ve even told her. If she doesn’t like me or doesn’t want to have sex lmk. I’ll still be here bestfriend. I just need to know so I can start actively trying to fuck other women.

She just never answers me.

But I can’t replace her love/personality/connection.

And she knows that to my detriment.

I said all that.

And I’m still going to defend men whose only goal is to have sex with a woman and then try to befriend her in furtherance of that goal.

There is nothing inherently wrong with that strategy.

It’s no different than a man getting rich solely to attract or try to fuck women.

It’s just a strategy.

There are men who don’t give af about money but will chase it just to gain access to women.

Is that inherently wrong?

No it’s just a strategy.

Wodanaz-Frisii · 2024-07-13T06:29:08+00:00

I lost a lot of male friends this way. I genuinely thought they wanted to be friends with me because we shared the same interests, but no they only did so to get inside my pants. I hate it when men do that, when they betray a friendship like that.

SaBahRub · 2024-07-12T22:00:06+00:00

Yes, but in the end dick > friend, regardless of the path

Guess which one is rarer and more valued by women?

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nofaplove-it · 2024-07-12T23:35:57+00:00

[permanently deleted]

There's a difference between falling for a long term friend gradually, and befriending a woman you have a crush/lust after in the sole hope that your "friendship" will make her sleep with you.

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