What the OKC study also said.

HarassMyAnger · 2019-12-01T02:48:56+00:00

Wait, why do the hottest men get next to no messages? That makes no sense.

-OpportunityCost · 2019-12-01T04:40:39+00:00

Is it really that hard to understand that there is an unbalance in the online dating world. Average women will get hundreds of matches/messages while the average men will not. I agree that it gets annoying hearing the same complaints over and over again, but a lot of the points are true and this seems like the place to discuss this as this is a sub all about sex, relationships, and the marketplace.

eldritchfloormop · 2019-12-01T10:41:08+00:00

D: even the most unattractive men get some messages

I'd say I'm fairly average and I have lots of average male friends and from shared experience it's perfectly common to get zero messages as a man.

Unless we're all actually super attractive and don't realize that, but somehow I doubt that.

NockerJoe · 2019-12-01T03:01:03+00:00

That's cute and all but literally anyone who's tried OLD will tell you that a woman messaging a man first is almost entirely an academic thing compared to the rate men message women.

405itsmike · 2019-12-01T02:38:19+00:00

Why did Oklahoma City do a study on that?

kgmm · 2019-12-01T06:57:35+00:00

Women are willing to date/marry men that they aren‘t sexually attracted to, yes. That‘s the whole betabux phenomenon.

Attraction matters a lot for hooking up though: https://medium.com/@worstonlinedater/tinder-experiments-ii-guys-unless-you-are-really-hot-you-are-probably-better-off-not-wasting-your-2ddf370a6e9a

Female Tinder usage data was collected and statistically analyzed to determine the inequality in the Tinder economy. It was determined that the bottom 80% of men (in terms of attractiveness) are competing for the bottom 22% of women and the top 78% of women are competing for the top 20% of men. The Gini coefficient for the Tinder economy based on “like” percentages was calculated to be 0.58. This means that the Tinder economy has more inequality than 95.1% of all the world’s national economies. In addition, it was determined that a man of average attractiveness would be “liked” by approximately 0.87% (1 in 115) of women on Tinder.

Helmet_Icicle · 2019-12-01T03:30:44+00:00

[deleted]

OatsGYOW · 2019-12-01T03:27:20+00:00

So about 60 percent of women messaged ugly men? What is that total... three messages?

CamoWoobie420 · 2019-12-01T03:58:07+00:00

Women messaging back lower value guys means nothing. We would have to know the ratio of how often those messages turn into dating/fucking. Plently of women just use dating apps to stroke their ego. They will let a low SMV guy play jester for her entertainment and nothing will ever come of it.

NalkaNalka · 2019-12-01T02:43:04+00:00

I know, we’re all SHOCKED that dudes have cherry picked information to blame women for their problems.

I know, we’re all SHOCKED that OP has cherry picked what incels say to blame men for it.

TheAbominableShowman · 2019-12-01T03:40:35+00:00

Honestly men also wouldn't find women nearly as hot if they didn't wear makeup. Most women really aren't nearly as good looking once the makeup comes off. Not judging when I say that. Just stating a fact. Having a naturally beautiful face is rare for both sexes.

Zippo-Cat · 2019-12-01T07:44:21+00:00

The message rates are in %, not absolute values, making them effectively uncomparable.

Combined with the fact that you think the data being 10 years old somehow completely invalidates it, it leads me to believe you should pick a different career - conding requires a shred of knowledge about mathematics and logical thinking.

2019-12-01T09:02:19+00:00

Oy, I’m so tired of seeing this dumb OKC study being used to add fuel to the bonfire all the incels sit around at their pity party.

Lmao are you fucking kidding me? Half the time Reddit is a constant pity party for women and women take every opportunity to make things about them.

Notice that even though men rate women at a fairly even distribution, they mostly reach out to the hottest women. See where the least attractive women get 0 messages?

God forbid women make the first move. If average or unattractive men have to do that with near constant rejection women can do the same with little risk of that. But they won't.

Now look at how the women messages. Do you see how women message all men, including the least attractive ones? See the part where the hottest men get almost no messages?!?

Hahaha women messaging men first. What a joke. Got anything else?

I know, we’re all SHOCKED that some dudes have cherry picked information to blame women for their problems.

You mean like women have done non stop? It's not even Reddit, everywhere is a constant fucking pity party for women. You're looking for a way to bitch that men have standards. You're really reaching for the stars here.

geyges · 2019-12-01T03:19:56+00:00

See the part where the hottest men get almost no messages?!?

Because the women who even bother to message are ugly girls that that know they can't get a hot man, so they go for average men.

Or in exceptional cases they're looking for beta in hopes of something longer term.

ColCrin · 2019-12-01T03:35:58+00:00

Those statistics are manipulated. Men are the biggest buyers of premium accounts on dating apps and they wouldn't publish statistics showing those men are suckers wasting their money.

MikepGrey · 2019-12-01T03:37:53+00:00

Right.... men mostly want good looking women as it means they have good genes.

Women on the other hand are used to dealing with wounded warriors who had to prove them selves in battle, so for a man to be "attractive" he should be in shape, scares are a +, and able to support/protect the women in question.

If you can bring this here panties will be soaked (I speak from experience and no I am not "hot")

kapitaali_com · 2019-12-01T08:08:05+00:00

https://www.gwern.net/docs/psychology/okcupid/yourlooksandyourinbox.html

Workaholiconew · 2019-12-01T11:58:03+00:00

Notice that even though men rate women at a fairly even distribution, they mostly reach out to the hottest women.

correction, they mostly send messages for hotter women. Men are supposed to send the messages so they try continue sending messages for hotter women, no news here. Also, do you ever consider hotter women are harder to get and thus do not use other message systems that easily?

See where the least attractive women get 0 messages?

because there are almost zero completely unatractive women. It is nominal number of messages not messages per persom

Do you see how women message all men, including the least attractive ones? See the part where the hottest men get almost no messages?!?

same thing. There is almost zero men considered the max degree of attractiveness. (80/20, remember?) thus, of course they message all men, including unatractive ones, there is almost no man they consider attractive.

I know, we’re all SHOCKED that some dudes have cherry picked information to blame women for their problems.

We are shocked at your misunderstanding of basic statistics but... we understand, it is hard to be logical with ideologies in the head.

Jaktenba · 2019-12-02T00:42:14+00:00

That sure is an interesting screen shot. Funny how the men's messaging never goes to 0%, yet you say

See where the least attractive women get 0 messages?

It's hard to see because it literally never happens.

As to the other side with female messaging, as others have pointed out, the male attractiveness rating does actual reach 0% (or at least gets much closer than the male messaging that you claimed is 0), so it is simply impossible for women to message these men, because they don't exist. Another factor could be that they are simply so rare, that most women never even encounter them. I have to admit I've never seen this study in full so I don't know if this is looking at the same women for both parts, or using a sample group for the ratings and then actual data for messaging. This information would have serious consequences on what conclusions can be drawn. As well, since I haven't seen the data in full, I have no way of knowing that this "messaging" is first messages, or includes replies. If replies are included, then it makes sense that the more populace males would get more replies due to sheer numbers, the fact that they already have a foot in the door by making contact, and the possibility of women being willing to use these men for a free meal/entertainment. Then if we consider that men typically message first (don't bring up Bumble, because it's irrelevant to a discussion on OKC) it makes sense that they are less likely to send messages to women they find unattractive. We also don't know who is doing the messaging. Is it weird for the ladies considered unattractive to message men that are considered unattractive?

DubsPackage · 2019-12-01T10:21:07+00:00

Incels cherrypick "sTuDiEs" to confirm their lazyness.

When you don't want to do anything, it's easier just to say "I'm 5/10 it's over."

Then you can feel good about being a do-nothing-bitch, sitting on your punk ass wondering why life is passing you by.

And you wahmen, don't think I'm letting you off the hook, because femcels/fds are the same garbage.

Just sit on your stank ass and wait for somebody to buy you din din, pathetic even by women's low standards.

Yeah I already know your "business plan" is to sell your body, what else would you be doing?

Bill Clinton coined a phrase, "The soft bigotry of low expectations."

Psych0_W0lf · 2019-12-01T12:19:40+00:00

I'm not sure what are you trying to prove by massaging data.

You are missing the point here. Women are willing to date men who they are not attracted towards specially at the time of reaching the wall. It's the AF/BB thing AGAIN.

BurdensomeCount · 2019-12-01T12:25:57+00:00

https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/12/12/beware-the-man-of-one-study/

LillthOfBabylon · 2019-12-01T14:00:20+00:00

Or, since women view the majority of men as unattractive (going by that study) then her messaging an "average" guy is actually a objectively above average guy.

Whiteliesmatter1 · 2019-12-01T16:41:22+00:00

If you interpret the graphs a bit deeper, you will see that women reach just as much as they settle, and so do men. Yes, women are more likely than men to message a perceived “1” or “2” than men, and less likely to message the “10s” than men are, but if you look at the areas between the lines before and after the intersection, you will be able to estimate the likelihood of each gender to either “reach” or “settle” in the messages they send. The areas where the messaging lines are below the attractiveness lines, is the amount they “settle” the area between the two lines after the have intersected is where the genders are “reaching”. You will see that although the distribution of the curves is different for men and women, women do reach just as much as they settle, and so do men.

However, all the graphs in the world won’t tell you as much about the gender difference of OLD as setting up your own two OKC accounts, a man and a woman of average attractiveness, and then see what it is like. The difference is nothing short of profound. OLD is incredibly easier for most women.

meeselbon573 · 2019-12-01T20:11:44+00:00

Always the excuse making. Women have to settle for “unattractive” men, because they deem almost all men unattractive.

ThorLives · 2019-12-01T23:02:10+00:00

Now look at how the women messages. Do you see how women message all men, including the least attractive ones? See the part where the hottest men get almost no messages?!?

I think you're reading the charts incorrectly. The "messages" section is the total number of messages sent to all men at that level, not the number of messages sent to each man at that level. It's clear on that chart that there are maybe 1% of men at the very highest level. It's hard to tell how many messages they get (because the chart is too small). Maybe they received 3% of all messages sent. Compare the 1% number to the 3% number, and you can tell that "hot men" are getting around 3x as many messages as the average man.

The other problem with this chart is that it only show percentages, not absolute numbers of messages sent. It's well-known that men send more messages than women. So, maybe ugly men receives 4% of all messages sent by women. But, ugly women receive 2% of all messages sent by men. Sounds like ugly men have it easier than ugly women, right? Not necessarily. If men send 3x as many messages as women do, then her 2% should be multiplied by 3x, and you'd see that ugly women get 1.5x as many messages as ugly men. She's actually in a better position than he is.

If you want to look at a chart with some absolute numbers, here's one - this data was gathered by a guy who setup a bunch of fake profiles of men and women in various cities all over the US. It becomes extremely clear that women are getting the vast number of messages sent. You'll note that - first of all - the top 40% of fake women absolutely destroyed everyone in terms of messages received. You'll also notice that 80% of the women received more messages than any of the guys - including the hottest guys. The bottom 60% of men did absolutely abysmally at getting messages. After 4 months, they each received between 0 and 2 messages. That's got to be incredibly demoralizing.

The reason that absolute numbers mean something is that percentages can give you a wrong understanding of what's going on. You could make statements like "hot women get 10x as many messages as ugly women, but hot men get only 5x as many messages a ugly men" and think that "Ugly men are over-complaining. Ugly men have it easier than women!". But, if women are receiving 10x the number of messages as men, then ugly women will be receiving a lot more attention than ugly men.

When men complain about not getting any interest or attention, that's what they're complaining about.

LucieRuby · 2019-12-02T22:51:21+00:00

100% this. Men are shallow and hypergamous.

sadomasochrist · 2019-12-01T05:35:50+00:00

So what substantive view of the SMP have you come up with and what is your supporting evidence and or methodology?

Are you here because you have an actual view or are you just here to try and "poke holes" because it offends you because you have outrageous standards to accept contradictory data?

TwentyX4 · 2019-12-01T03:53:03+00:00

I'd like a source on this one OP. The most likely situation here is that men swipe right on women they aren't interested in, and women are picky about who they swipe on so once matched they are less picky. Plus if a guy is 400 pounds, he's probably not on tinder cause why bother?

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stonedkyuby · 2019-12-01T16:18:01+00:00

Yeah I figured that there were flaws in using a singular decade old study from one dating site that hasn't been reproduced and is completely divorced of context as undeniable proof that all women are hive minded whores that only want to date giga chads but this just proves it. Thanks

teramelosiscool · 2019-12-01T22:42:35+00:00

See the part where the hottest men get almost no messages?!?

so that's why i do so bad at online dating!!

2019-12-01T22:44:23+00:00

As lots of blue/purple/red pill women on here have said - often the men they date are the sort of men they would not swipe on tinder. This seems congruent with my own experience.

6penisdickcock9 · 2019-12-02T06:41:22+00:00

Women want 20% of men while men want around 50%(if not more) for biological reasons that i dont think i need to explain. Can we leave this topic behind.

Eastuss · 2019-12-02T10:56:52+00:00

See where the least attractive women get 0 messages?

The study suggested the least attractive women still got more messages than the least attractive men. Maybe you missed this graph which shows it's fairly similar for both unattractive women and unnattractive men. And then realize that there are only 5% of women that are unattractive while 25% for men...........

Do you see how women message all men, including the least attractive ones? See the part where the hottest men get almost no messages?!?

They don't get a lot of message because they simply do not exist.

Your first problem in reading this is you do not realize that this is put into perspective with the distrubution. 7% of women are 10/10, 0% of men are 10/10.

If you look closely, you realize that on both men and women the ones who receive the most messages are the 80th percentile. The issue you have is you do not realize that men's 80th percentile is a 4/10 in women's ratings.

Your second problem is you seem unaware of the idea that when men message, they're already seduced, while when women message, they're still not seduced. So the amount of message don't really mean anything.

Conclusion: you're the one who cherry picks data...

80_20 · 2019-12-02T18:52:30+00:00

First off, it wasn't a study. Okcupid's founder Christian Rudder published the data with a blog post in 2009. The data was updated and clarified in the 2014 book Dataclysm.

Tinder disproves the women message ugly guys anyway reteroic.

full source: After a 2014 interview with Tinder CEO Sean Rad, the New York Times reported that men swiped right, or "liked", 46 percent of the time while women did so to 14 percent of profiles. Because men make up roughly 60 percent of Tinder's 50 million users, there are a lot less "likes" shared between the larger group of users.

So according to Tinder data, it is actually worse than the okcupid data.

Women can't message men on tinder they don't swipe right on. So women aren't messaging men they find ugly.

faq:

claim: But okcupid used to inform people who rated more than 4 stars, so it skewed the results.

A. Neither Tinder nor match.com had this feature and they have the same data as okcupid. So all dating sites are for ltr and str or none of them are.

claim: okcupid has uglier users.

A. okcupid founder, Dataclysm author, Harvard mathmatics graduate, Christian Rudder used photos of a social media website and got the same results. okcupid users are no different than "regular people" (same goes for the selfie claim)

claim: okcupid said men were worse!

A. okcupid gave women a huge head start. then declared men reach out further than women. A 50 percentile man reaching out to a 50 percentile woman is "reaching out". A 50 percentile woman contacting an 80 percentile man was seen as equal because of the way okcupid skewed the data with the way the sexes rate each other. They didn't do it by percentiles, they did it by "attractiveness groups". This graph is from the okcupid book. See how it doesn't match?

claim: We don't have the sample size

A. Yes, we do, it was estimated by the author at half the single people in the United States. Far larger than any study ever done based on real people.

All this is well and good, do you have another other sources?

published study (sample size ~15000):

Again, patterns of sent messages appeared to fall between the aim-highest and the more tempered models in Figure 1. This difference is greatest for the least desirable [women]senders, whereby fewer than 10% send messages to men at similar desirability levels and more than half sent messages to alters in the medium-high and highest level quintiles. [In english: The lowest of the low women only sent messages to Chad, in the study this was the greatest difference between attractiveness groups]

We also include two summary measures of online dating activity. Outgoing Messages captures the total number of messages sent by the online daters in the sixth-month observation window. The average male sent about 2.5 times as many messages than the average woman, and the male distribution of sent messages was much more highly skewed. In addition, twice as many women as men sent no messages to other daters. Incoming Messages showed the opposite pattern, with the average male receiving 4.5 times fewer messages than the average woman, and 10 times more men compared to women receiving no messages. Nearly all women (98%) received at least one message from a man, and about 18% of men received no messages from women. [In english: Men sent messages to more varied women. 98 percent of women got messages. 18 percent of men got no messages.]

analt223 · 2019-12-02T19:55:31+00:00

ANOTHER one of these "everyone is getting the OK cupid study wrong!" posts. No. The hoops you are going through. The facts are this: its easier to be an attractive woman in the eyes of men than an attractive man in the eyes of women. This causes patriarchy, and also why men think feminism is fucking stupid.

ayeemmaperson · 2019-12-03T14:47:17+00:00

That's the same thing they did the the study that showed men prefer women in their 20's no matter how old they get. They forgot to mention 75% of the data came from men under 30, that it only rated the top 10% hottest, that the rest got the same ratings they did when they were young, and that the older men only ever messaged women their own ages.

But they cherry pick it to make women believe they get whacked with the old and ugly stick instantly at midnight on their 25th birthday.

LillthOfBabylon · 2019-12-01T18:28:34+00:00

I love how guys here are moving the goal post and just yelling "WELL! WOMEN DONT MESSAGE, ANYWAYS!" It's hilarious!

Oreoman1820 · 2019-12-01T04:43:59+00:00

Women find all men to be ugly...unless a particular man is rich.

2019-12-01T06:46:22+00:00

[removed]

Crunch528 · 2019-12-01T16:17:48+00:00

I think the shit is hilarious, and if it’s true I hope it’s 99/1. Let them bitch. And then when they realize most women don’t do old and try to cold approach one irl bitching about “high value, low tier” maths, they can realize just how unfuckable they really are.

Most men are unfuckable, and that’s before they even let the verbal diarrhea flow. Fact. If I had been born a repulsive, unfuckable moid, I’d take it up with my parents for knowing the rules of the world and still bringing my short, ugly, little dick, no social or dancing skills-having ass into it (or whatever your shortcomings may be) Why would you do that to a person? And why would an attractive woman want to doom their future children to the same by fucking you? Lmao I hope it’s 99/1

Title	What the OKC study also said.
Author	Coder-Cat
Upvotes	88
Comments	326
Date	December 1, 2019 2:35 AM UTC (6 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/e48ksp/what_the_okc_study_also_said/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/what-the-okc-study-also-said.297306 https://theredarchive.com/post/297306

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