If women do porn voluntarily, how is it degrading them?

sorebum405 · 2021-10-12T16:01:39+00:00

Someone in the red pill community said this once.Whatever men are attracted to is considered degrading, whatever men are not attracted to is considered empowering.So for example, sexy half naked women are being degraded, but morbidly obese half naked women are empowered.

Nueig · 2021-10-12T15:58:29+00:00

Ahh the catch 22 of this generation "it is empowering if I a woman spread my sexuality openly and freely without remorse however a man who views me in a sexual manner that I do not find attractive then it is degrading immoral and an affront on feminity everywhere"

Claptrap-94 · 2021-10-12T16:36:35+00:00

It's only degrading when men like it.

Nettykitty11 · 2021-10-12T16:45:47+00:00

"Porn is degrading to women." "Please join my onlyfans" I don't get any of it and I am a woman.

Alexander_Anqvist · 2021-10-12T18:21:26+00:00

Another thing. Porn and sex work only has a market because men are intimacy starved, but instead it is assumed we just want to fuck anything with a pulse.

anon517 · 2021-10-12T15:45:42+00:00

[permanently deleted]

wh_atsuperother10_9 · 2021-10-12T17:33:25+00:00

I can see where you're coming from, but I don't think just because someone does something voluntarily that it does not make it necessarily degrading for the person's doing it, as it is (A) theoretically and practically possible for someone to engage in self-degradation and thereby be complicit in her own degradation, even, perhaps, without her even knowing it or recognising it as such, I think; and (B), while it is contested the degree to which pornstars enter the porn industry of their own volition --- by which I mean if they happen to be above the social and cultural laws that maybe inspire movement towards a certain profession for a woman who goes into porn --- I think we can say that in some circumstances a pornstar only enters the porn industry for reasons of survival, not because it is necessarily the thing which she has long aspired to do, even though it may be for some women, since it is women of whom you're asking in your question.

Some feminists believe that no matter how sex work is performed, no matter by whom it is performed, no matter for whom or with whom it is performed, no matter how safe a form of sex work like porn is made in terms of the environment in which it is performed where consent, etc., is critical, something like porn is always going to be degrading for the woman in it, even if she voluntarily consents to doing the porn, even if she personally may consider the porn good in some way(s).

Personally, I don't like paternalism, so I don't want to tell a woman what to do or what not to do in terms of her body and her choices, as she is an adult who ought to be respected and regarded as such in an equal way to any man and vice versa for a man with any woman in an equal way, but I think some things may just be really quite harmful to women, of which porn may be one.

I do believe we need to be libertarian, not paternalistic with regard to the choices a free woman or a free man decides to make in her or his life, but I also think we need to look at the social and cultural effects that these kinds of choices may have on people more widely, as I think if something like porn is really harmful to women and or men, then maybe we ought to seek its abolition, not its further reforming, the former of which most radical feminists accept and advocate for, especially radical feminists like Andrea Dworkin and Catherine MacKinnon.

What I will say lastly is that I think what gets defined as porn is a topic of discussion that must be had, as I do think some people do take for granted the meaning of words like porn and pornography, as it is clear that some people, wrongly in my view, would consider something like a pictured bare female areola's being considered pornographic, but I would not necessarily subscribe to this. Others may think it is dependent on when genitals are being shown, but, again, I don't think the line between pornography and art (as some people don't believe porn is or can be an art form) is always as clear as sole folk would like it to be, even some folk with whom I agree on some issues regarding this sort of thing, I suppose.

shongage · 2021-10-12T18:57:37+00:00

So is Femdom degrading to men?

International_Risk82 · 2021-10-12T16:20:51+00:00

Honestly, porn degrades everyone involved. Men, women and it's consumers. The male dominance bit is flipping hilarious tho.

Daphrey · 2021-10-12T17:54:30+00:00

You can voluntarily do something degrading for many reasons.

Poverty is one of the biggest.

LondonDude123 · 2021-10-12T15:47:52+00:00

No no no you missed it. Its the womans choice, so its EMPOWERING them.

I wish I was being facetious, but thats how its justified.

It fucking baffles me as well, but here we are. Total clown world!

ThrowawayGhostGuy1 · 2021-10-12T16:51:23+00:00

If you’re Mia Khalifa, you need to play the victim so you can pretend that you’re a “good girl” and “wife material” and not “damaged goods.”

Dwaynedibley24601 · 2021-10-12T16:56:09+00:00

I dunno... I used to wash dishes in a restaurant voluntarily and it was pretty degrading... because I volunteered because I had no other options.

Algoresball · 2021-10-12T19:21:00+00:00

Some women have this strange idea that all women represent them. So if they’d personally find something degrading than it’s degrading for any women to do it. It doesn’t make any sense. If I find something degrading I don’t do it. If some other guy does it than that’s his business. Feminist insist that all women conform to their view of the world

bachbozo · 2021-10-12T22:25:00+00:00

It’s very much degrading to the men as well.

Ultimately, porn itself is relatively fucked up - and its actors are just lost souls looking for a living. Not too complicated in my eyes

LoveHotelCondom · 2021-10-13T00:01:24+00:00

I've actually wondered about this myself a lot.

The first answer I was more or less given was that there are various sects of feminism which have a variety of different beliefs. But this doesn't address the cognitive dissonance where many feminists will be sex positive towards women empowering themselves through sex work, yet sex negative when it comes to men being consumers.

What it really boils down to in the end is this:

If a woman receives money for engaging in sex work, she is empowered.
If a man receives pleasure or enjoyment from a woman engaging in sex work, he is objectifying her.

This is why you'll see things like pro-sex work ideals, but disgust towards men who pay for sex. This is why you'll see feminists cite things like male gaze theory, yet not be called SWERFs by other feminists.

To put it even more simply, when men like something it's bad. That's really the gist of it.

xcheshirecatxx · 2021-10-13T01:48:45+00:00

Feminists don't think any women do sex work in a really voluntary way unless its made by the woman herself

I was a stripper, and I made money out of men needing company.

It's a job where you can definitely get abusers as clients, but that's why I chose good places to work at. The doormen were on our side

EviessVeralan · 2021-10-13T03:08:04+00:00

Because theres a tendency within the radfem and mainline communities to believe that women are grown adults capable of making their own decisions and also hapless morons who are constantly manipulated into making decisions the other person doesnt like. And neither see the blatant contradiction.

Derpalator · 2021-10-13T10:33:16+00:00

Well it starts out as "empowerment" but over the years, they enter the "me too" zone, and then becomes a crime that they were taped cum guzzling 15 guys at once

Comfortable_Ad5520 · 2021-10-13T11:17:37+00:00

Me just chillin waitin for triggered feminists in the comment section

tms79 · 2021-10-12T22:06:01+00:00

The adult industry exploits both men an women.

BluBeech · 2021-10-13T00:31:26+00:00

Porn objectifies both men and women but people only care when it's women. The point of porn is to watch people fuck which sometimes lacks the story arc or character arc outside of someone getting their cheeks clapped. They'd still complain if there was any of that. I mean I saw a feminist claim the Witcher was sexist for featuring nude women. People just think women being desired and nude is degrading unless they deem it to be empowering. It doesn't really make much sense which is why I choose not to care.

kkjdroid · 2021-10-13T02:26:55+00:00

Working in retail or foodservice is technically voluntary (if you don't consider the threat of starving to death in the streets to be coercion), but it's incredibly degrading. Porn can also be a shitty job where you get abused, and such positions are very common.

There are also people who think that all porn is by definition degrading, but they generally have complexes about sex in general and shouldn't be listened to.

Grittyneedlestabber · 2021-10-13T04:08:09+00:00

It is similar to why liberals are against blacks needing IDs to vote.

It is called soft bigotry of low expectations.

So what this tells us about women is that, they (woman) are basically children and do not have proper mental faculties regarding decisions that can be detrimental to their well being.

so, it is all men's fault.

fraktalMaus · 2021-10-12T16:33:21+00:00

If men go down in the mine willingly, does that mean people don’t view men as disposable?

godimissthePNW · 2021-10-13T01:28:07+00:00

Because it’s never their fault

BruceCampbell123 · 2021-10-12T17:42:30+00:00

Because men bad, women good.

Morrighan1129 · 2021-10-13T01:32:10+00:00

The idea that the feminists push is that women go into these positions because they don't have a choice. That all the men who view porn are basically degrading and objectifying women, by the very act of watching them have sex.

It doesn't make a lick of sense, but that's never stopped feminists before.

WalkerSunset · 2021-10-13T05:11:19+00:00

Don't bother trying to find the logic. Some of them will tell you that man on man porn is violence towards women because they are being left out.

Charming_Exit_3507 · 2021-10-12T17:25:08+00:00

Because they want to gain attention.

springy · 2021-10-12T17:31:17+00:00

The idea is that they are "forced" into it implicity, by the "evil patriarchy" preventing them from getting other high paid work.

Dwaynedibley24601 · 2021-10-12T16:57:45+00:00

Porn does present unrealistic expectations of sexual interactions between people. It is the very definition of objectification (for men and women).

JayMeadows · 2021-10-12T23:07:17+00:00

This is such a convoluted question.

Mia Khalifa was an example of "Empowering Women" despite being a porn star, a dude literally told her she's hot and to do some porn for him, she said Okay... Women are so confusing as to what is right and what is wrong.

SolidMercer · 2021-10-13T02:47:07+00:00

The problem is they expect things both ways, they want right to sexualize themselves without the responsibility that comes with it. Feminist created this sex culture by demanding to normalize women being naked but now they complain about it.

shrickertt · 2021-10-12T19:57:14+00:00

women objectify themselves constantly on social media platforms, but only do it for one man or a select few. when they are called out for it they say “i dO iT fOr mYsElf”, when in reality it's to receive false validation from these men. they also use this tactic to shame other men and get social points from it- their favorite insult ironically being “incel”. just because someone is self aware of their bullshit doesn't mean they don't have sex, but hey, remember, no logic. 😉

GwaziMagnum · 2021-10-12T22:21:10+00:00

EDIT: Realized I didn't elaborate enough on the main question in the OP. To answer that, if it's consensual then it's no degrading to that individual.

But it may still be open to the wider debate if the imagine degrades most women as a whole or not. Which has layers to it. But in a nutshell it's a problem of everyone has different levels of comfort, and that can get shook when media shown happens to differ from ones individual comfort level.

--Original Post--

I'd say it depends on two factors.

The individual
The circumstance

Everyone, male or women has different thresholds and areas of comfort with sex. What one finds empowering another will find dehumanizing. That's just how people are.

Circumstance could be a lot of different things. Including upbringing, social groups etc. But the main area I feel is relevant in this case is the legality of porn, and the financial state of the person in question. It's one thing to do porn because you want to, it's another thing to do porn because you're starving and can't find another way to put food on the table. And it's yet another thing all together to do porn because someone kidnapped/intimidated/blackmailed you into it. Which will continue to be a serious problem until sex work is legalized and protected.

braucifur · 2021-10-13T00:25:30+00:00

There's a few things going on in those claiming sex work is degrading, some justified.

They try to justify it as their career arc they get stuck in. Very few make enough to live off of but it is very easy money when they are young and money that they can't make elsewhere for that level of effort.

Thing is during this time they aren't developing their skillset into any more legitimate form of work where ones compensation tends to grow over time with one's experience. In sex work the opposite is true: over time she will not be able to maintain her compensation as there is less value in older women.

Also many men will not marry and be the provider for a former sex worker. Some still will but most will not. Something about not wanting the village bicycle.

So by the time their sex working days are over, many fall on hard times because they don't have tangible skills in any conventional field, many are bad with money so didn't save adequately for retirement of their relative short "career" in sex work, and many are excluded from traditional provider men.

Also many conventional (non-sex worker) women dislike it because it provides competition for female attention.

Thing is women doing sex work aren't victims. Sure some are "trafficked" but I suspect that is largely a media contrivance. What they are are young women deciding to take the path of least resistance in life and live in the moment for a better lifestyle now and not concerned with the consequences later. No 20 year old about to do her first porn shoot ever thinks twenty years ahead of where she will be in her life as accountability is largely anathema to modern women. Instead she will live in the moment and believe that the world is her oyster and tomorrow will never come and social media will shower her with likes for her dopamine hits.

Moreso than porn "degrading" women for those porn gals it's just revealing their true inner nature: living for the moment believing tomorrow and the associated consequences will never come. Nothing is sadder than a 40+ year old former porn star who used to be hot enough to snag any decent traditional guy in her youth if not for her life choices & now she has no life partner, no/few savings, no conventional skills and faded beauty. That's one hell of a life arc going the wrong way.

Digitaldreamer7 · 2021-10-13T01:51:07+00:00

No femcel replies please, academic in nature only. We live in the real world, not clown world.
Because no one want's the village bicycle. They want to watch the bicycle get gaped, but they don't want to be responsible for the bicycle for the rest of it's life after it's been "empowered" (Humiliated), destroyed physically and emotionally, and used up.

CanniBal1320 · 2021-10-13T02:20:13+00:00

Women who always seek victimhood, please know that the first step towards empowerment or equality is sharing equal responsibilities. Own up ur shit and dont play the victim card every time. Coz playing victim is for the weak. U r strong and independent.

Procast17 · 2021-10-13T11:01:56+00:00

Hugh Hefner had a good talk about this on the Dick Cavett show. https://youtu.be/5BXALFRMpCw

DanteLivra · 2021-10-12T16:54:47+00:00

Already pointed out in the comment. Women can't be responsible for their own actions so the blame usually go to the closest man, depending on the feminist its gonna be producers (who can be women but in that case just go up in the hierarchy until you find a man) or consummers.

Because obviously when a toy is defective we blame the kids who play with it right ? Or the store that buy toys in order to distribute it ? It would be absurd to blame the entity creating the toy !!!

I never understood why feminists don't shame women who do porn or porn-adjacent things. To the contrary they praise it, they encourage a mindless sharing of nudes in the name of "empowerement". But when faced with the consequences, that women who act like a piece of meat ready to be sold will be treated like a piece of meat ready to be bought, they play the victim card "oh I was abused by the patriarchy, this invisible entity forced my own free will so I did things I didn't want to do, I signed a contract explaining in details what I was gonna do because I taught I wouldn't have to do it !".

A case about a certain porn actress comes to mind, I have no sympathy for those people. If they didn't want to do that to their body, to their image, then they could have easily avoided it by choosing a different career.

FSM_Rabbi · 2021-10-12T19:23:40+00:00

Im really worrying that this sub is towing the line of a woman bashing sub and its a shame. People are watching, and when we get toxic in our discussions it makes our entire position loses validity.

So please rethink your answers to questions like this. Discussion is fine, but angry reactionary comments only serve to paint us in a bad picture

El_Psy_Congroo4477 · 2021-10-12T17:44:09+00:00

Women who say this are envious of women who are actually attractive enough to be in porn, so they feel the need to portray what they do as wrong.

casra888 · 2021-10-12T16:52:20+00:00

Because everything is simultaneously oppressing and empowering them. It just shifts sides as they want it to.

ghostslikme · 2021-10-12T16:53:46+00:00

Yea outside of the ones that were trafficked (which I think is not the norm in mainstream porn at least), they chose to do that knowing pretty well what was gonna happen. Also, I thought sex work was supposed to be positive and empowering. And if they are in poor financial circumstances where they need to go keep doing porn, we’ll at least they can do that as opposed to a man who becomes homeless or has to do what is likely an actually dangerous job.

vovodiva · 2021-10-12T17:35:02+00:00

It’s because the patriarchy doesn’t pay cashiers and hair dressers enough so they are forced into it. Or some bullshit like that.

Bisexual-Bop-It · 2021-10-12T17:57:50+00:00

Porn degrades everyone involved. You only get hired to flaunt your best features. This also effects real world expectations in dating. I'm sure there is a lot of black men out there who are getting tired of people assuming they have a huge cock, or asian women who get asked about their affinity for tentacles.

The real answer here on why porn actresses find it degrading is because they get into it thinking they are going to make a living, but end up not getting paid much. This is made worse by these porn clips being stolen and posted on the internet for free. For example, you film a porno that is just for you and your partner to view, but it gets posted on the internet without your permission. How would you feel? To have your face and every inch of your body available on the internet and you get NOTHING from it, not even a cent. A lot of illegal and shady dealings are going on in the porn industry and getting in a legal battle over some nudes can be pretty daunting.

This is why you see an influx of people doing stuff like only fans, they can control what content is put out and they actually get paid for it. Plus, they make the content themselves, so they arent being coerced into doing something they dont want to do.

deeznutsguy · 2021-10-12T19:19:32+00:00

I think a lot of girls that get into porn don’t know what they’re getting into and get taken advantage of and deal with unsafe conditions. Very similarly to construction workers who are desperate for work will tolerate unsafe and unhealthy conditions. That’s why the only fans thing is empowering because they’re taking care of business themselves and making their own decisions on what they do. It would be like that construction worker quiting his toxic job inhaling unsafe fumes at a warehouse and starting his own landscaping company. It’s not even a male vs females thing it’s more of a safety thing.

Good_Stuff11 · 2021-10-12T20:58:18+00:00

They also get paid insanely more than men ever do. Not only this guys are even more “objectified” in porn because people only care about their dicks, and actual porn shoots can be insanely hard for guys cuz they had to constantly keep it up and not nut after an entire day of it.

The hilarious part too is feminism is at this weird two way street where women will objectify themselves to look attractive or get attention and also use it as a way to say “we’re better than men” whilst at the same time getting mad at people who objectify them. They don’t know what to do.

kevintheredneck · 2021-10-12T17:43:48+00:00

I don’t know the mind of a woman. It’s like trying to understand the instructions for a 1980’s VCR. The porn industry has always been about money. Money for the producers, money for the studio owners, and none for the actresses or actors.

TracyMorganFreeman · 2021-10-12T17:37:06+00:00

The women who say it's degrading don't think they'd do it voluntarily. They're projecting their own sensibilities onto other women because they're narcissists who don't consider the agency of women in their activism.

DeadlyDesai · 2021-10-12T18:38:52+00:00

Feminists be like: "Poor girls do this because of their financial hardships and (male dominant) society gave them this only choice."

I mean, what else of an excuse do you expect from them. Either women are right or victims. -_-

Starmind0 · 2021-10-12T19:03:33+00:00

Because some are just desperate to be oppressed. Meanwhile men are literally actually degraded in porn AND factually treated like pleasure objects.

ccoolslut · 2021-10-12T20:39:32+00:00

what is wrong w y’all??? it’s a question stop theorizing how you guys believe women function some of you really sound like incels in these replies i literally just read “there’s a long list of why i don’t like women” what is wrong w you guys why are you talking down to victims it’s disgusting do better i came to this sub to discuss mens rights and things i could do to help not to hear some of y’all completely talk down to victims some of you need to realize you are the oppressor

Marsupial_Defender · 2021-10-12T17:59:00+00:00

Same reason i pity a guy who is caught up selling drugs

Melohdy · 2021-10-12T19:39:59+00:00

It's only degrading when men view it. /s

DotNetDeveloperDude · 2021-10-12T19:57:47+00:00

Can’t support your OnlyFans because I don’t want to objectify you.

I wonder why this isn’t an issue for gay porn.

rinkinky · 2021-10-13T00:20:39+00:00

Where did you read or hear that women find porn degrading??

Most women I know don’t say that and if anything they support porn and things like OF, just because it’s a freedom to do what you want with your body and profit from it. Just like what you said that women themselves voluntarily do porn.

MrMacDoctor · 2021-10-13T00:58:13+00:00

It's funny to me that porn is degrading to women yet they're the ones that make the most money doing it and a majority had onlyfans

frednoname1 · 2021-10-13T04:50:50+00:00

So is a woman's right to choose, degrading as well?

Cum_rain · 2021-10-13T07:16:12+00:00

Fact: porn categories that objectify or degrade women the most (for eg. BDSM with Dom guy and Sub girl) are popular among a female majority.

rainbow_bro_bot · 2021-10-13T12:44:42+00:00

It isn't. Sex work (porn, stripping, cam work, providing sexual services etc) is a valid job despite what some feminists say.

paddyhkerry · 2021-10-12T21:23:22+00:00

All porn is prostitution,

westoast · 2021-10-12T17:30:31+00:00

It's not

McFeely_Smackup · 2021-10-12T23:40:47+00:00

it's easy to understand, you just haven't been paying attention.

If a woman chooses to do porn, it's empowering her as a woman, taking control of her sexuality, and it's beautiful, not to be disparaged. But only when talking about her specifically.

When you talk about porn as a concept, it's abusive, exploitative, and forces women to sell their bodies due to patriarchal oppression.

and when we talk about porn as a product, the men who consume it are disgusting, base, oppressors and sexual predators.

so let's recap: women who do Porn good, but porn bad, and men watching porn is very bad.

BackAlleyKittens · 2021-10-12T16:45:53+00:00

It's not. This country was founded by puritans.

okfornothing · 2021-10-12T17:26:17+00:00

And I bet a lot of them really like it. They sure are doing a great job of convincing me of that! I hear this talk of trafficking, it just seems to me they want to be in that lane.

Vidar34 · 2021-10-12T21:06:57+00:00

Women objectifying themselves is empowering.

Men enjoying the result is degrading to all women everywhere, and the man is a misogynist pig.

But they still want the money men spend on the result.

Only_one_in_ur_mom · 2021-10-12T16:30:43+00:00

Would you want your mom doing porn? Neither would your dad brothers or sisters and if it came out that she did he would leave her and you guys would be ridiculed in school for having a whore mother. A woman doing porn or being promiscuous reflects poorly on EVERYONE she interacts with on a regular basis. Men will call you a pussy behind your back kids will laugh the other mothers will snicker. Taking your whore wife to any business outing is a huge risk if anyone recognizes her your credibility as a man and business partner is at risk. People don’t like whores and never have. This movement to change people’s perfectly valid feelings is insane

hardturkeycider · 2021-10-12T18:33:42+00:00

Jealousy coupled with the stigma of 'taking the easy way out'

63daddy · 2021-10-12T21:29:24+00:00

Feminists believe they know better than the individual women in question. It’s a very pompous and belittling attitude on their part.

danpilon · 2021-10-12T21:42:58+00:00

Every person ever with a job is objectified by that job. They are there to provide a utility, whether it be from their body, or mind, or whatever. While they should be treated humanely at their job, their humanity is somewhat irrelevant. This is fine. People being objectified in various situations doesn't mean their identity as a person is reduced to that object. If someone treats someone else entirely as an object then they are an asshole, and really that is what people should be against. So no there is nothing wrong with porn in my mind. It's only if a pornstar is treated as subhuman and nothing more than a sex object that it becomes an issue (clearly things like sex trafficking also fall under this category).

Nihi1986 · 2021-10-12T23:44:19+00:00

Porn is degrading for women cause they are giving for 'free' (only for some money) what most men wanted from them (sex, or to at least see her doing hot dirty stuff).

It's degrading because they get into a terribly abusive industry which even uses drugs to create addicts they can manipulate and predates on young naive stupid hot girls.

It's degrading because there's nothing noble, artistic, creative, meaningful or inspired in an ass gaping video.

Porn is degrading cause it's usually sex where the man dominates and everyone can watch it.

And more importantly, porn is degrading cause those women could do something much better with their lives, like studying a fascinanting career, achieving their fulk potential, having children in a good family and a good environment if she wants to be a mum.

They also objectify themselves and allow all men to objectify them, and they will never be taken seriously out of the industry no matter what her new career is about. They devalue themselves, they give so much for free and in front of millions...

jxg6487 · 2021-10-13T00:06:35+00:00

But there is dominatrixes and humiliation. Women also watch porn. I believe at this point it’s the workings of a few speaking for the rest of women

rabel111 · 2021-10-13T01:47:33+00:00

Actually, women doing porn is sexual exploitation of men. But that wouldn't fit the "victim" narrative.

Jaden_McCown · 2021-10-13T04:18:36+00:00

If a woman is doing it as her own choice it's fine.

But it still can damage the brain to watch porn.

draxenato · 2021-10-13T04:24:21+00:00

I used to work in the adult entertainment industry and it isn't degrading for the people who want to be involved in it, and I'll tell you now that this is an industry driven by women. To be blunt, they're the talent, they draw in the viewers, they cut the deals and they make the money. If the porn industry was the NFL then the women are the quarterbacks and the guys are the cheerleaders.

DanteLivra · 2021-10-12T16:39:54+00:00

[permanently deleted]

Sun-Kizzed · 2021-10-12T17:27:25+00:00

When women are doing porn / onlyfans to make a living and are making money off of it, women think that’s great. When women are in an office and being objectified for their skirt and sexually harassed because of it ( by women and men, not just men ), we will take offense to that. Otherwise, you go girl for making porn and getting that bank.

AdamChap · 2021-10-12T20:00:52+00:00

Pornstars are degraded like every other working class person who works their ass off for minimum wage. In fact for poor men and women who don't sell their body for sex it is very hard to find compassion for people who make your monthly salary in two hours.

The argument that porn degrades women is also ignorant to forms of pornography without a man and a women, lesbian and gay porn for instance. Gay porn can't demonstrate men's dominance over... men... can it?

The people who consider porn to be degrading are, I'd have a bet, either extreme cultural conservatives or extreme socialist types.

In the case of feminists claiming porn is derogatory it's obviously the socialist types, who will see a poor person making money as being exploited by the class above - of course they'll just switch out the rich for men in general. Even though the reality in sex work if we look toward the modern technological advance of sites like OnlyFans - you have men paying women a lot of money for not much. Men and women who aren't sex working couldn't dream of making thousands in a week. They make a thousand a month working full time. Who is being exploited here, the women making far more than your average person per hour of labour or the lonely men paying women for attention of some kind?

I do think there is some validity to the argument however, but I wont agree with a single person who holds that perspective unless they also see something like the military as exploiting men in a similar way.

FlamingZebraFace · 2021-10-12T23:22:45+00:00

This is why I only consume femdom porn

REDDITthehumanoid · 2021-10-13T00:31:40+00:00

Because it just is, OK?

shzoom1 · 2021-10-13T02:36:43+00:00

Plus i think porn should be banned too. Fat thin black white...no one should be objectified and used like porn does..and I mean it for both men and women

oafsalot · 2021-10-12T18:22:40+00:00

It's not degrading to the individual so long as they're not under duress, but unfortunately a lot of people who do porn are at least under financial duress, they have to do it or they can't eat.

As for women as a group, so long as some women are prudes they don't want men seeing other women's bodies, or what they have is diminished in value.

DestructionDestroyer · 2021-10-12T19:31:06+00:00

Because the same feminists who argue that women should chart their own path in life and that there are no "wrong" choices believe that no woman would voluntarily choose to perform in degrading form. <shrugs>

Brokepapa321 · 2021-10-12T19:37:08+00:00

The discussions I've heard on the matter generally run under the assumption that a woman would not willingly choose to work in the sex industry. The premise being that if a woman does chose porn as a profession, then a man manipulated her into that course of action. Please note the individuals i've heard making this argument aren't exactly M.E.N.S.A. members...so take it with a grain of salt.

To me assuming that porn is degrading in any way is a left over bit of taboo enforced by archaic puritanical belief systems. That being said...under NO circumstances should ANYONE be manipulated/strong armed into anything they would not choose for themselves.

ExMuzzy · 2021-10-12T20:12:13+00:00

Consensual? Supposedly all pornstars are trafficking victims lol.

sstokes2746 · 2021-10-12T20:34:35+00:00

I've read/ watched a lot of interviews with adult stars that have said they sought out getting into the business. Granted, these are the major stars and I'm sure it does happen where men and women are coerced into sex scenes. But for every adult star that says that says they regret doing films, there are many that walk away voluntarily and go on to have successful careers.

But I also have to agree that the adult industry does objectify both men and women. On the woman side, they are viewed as willing to take it in any hole in multiple positions with the finish all over their face and loving it. On the man side of it, every man is supposed to be this 6'3" shredded Adonis looking specimen with a 10-12" penis that can have jackhammer sex for over an hour.

Unfortunately, this fantasy/ image has bled into mainstream society and people can no longer separate the two. Now, I'm in no way shaming or degrading those who enter the adult industry on their own free will. If a person is of legal age and competent, they've made their choice and have to live with it.

TryThisDickdotCom · 2021-10-12T21:36:33+00:00

If prostitution where legal, I'd work harder.

alclarkey · 2021-10-12T22:56:09+00:00

I'm not exactly sure this is a hill worth fighting on.

nixon_talks · 2021-10-12T23:37:47+00:00

Reminds me of an interview Hefner did in the 70s along side feminists who claimed they (women) were being objectified and Hef said something like "they are choosing to do this so they're not being forced into anything".

Like someone says in the comments Lana Rhodes wants to erase her porn history - real life isn't your browsing history.

brutay · 2021-10-13T00:55:36+00:00

Because it has nothing to do with whether it's "voluntary" or not. Wage slavery is degrading, too, and yet technically "voluntary".

I guess it depends on what you mean by "voluntary". Are they doing it because they need the money? (Then it's degrading.) Or is it something they would do for free? (Not degrading, but problematic in other ways.)

Distorted_Passion · 2021-10-13T04:49:03+00:00

I usually only hear this from religious women and men. I don't think it is personally.

benethorpl · 2021-10-13T18:24:04+00:00

I’ve been told a lot that porn is degrading to women because it objectifies them highlights male dominance.

it's because feminists believe porn is only watched by men below the 95th percentile, aka men that aren't considered human, aka incels. It's exactly like with any interactions with modern women. If you're in the absolute top in Looks, Money, and Social Status, you can do whatever the fuck you please, but if you aren't top 5% in any of these aspects, you're automatically a subhuman and a rapist if you even think about doing what "high value men" do in the same context, or using the same words they use.

From an evolutionary perspective, women enjoy being degraded, dominated, and treated as a sex object, but only if it's by a man they consider "high value". As shown by FDS, TwoX, tiktok and twitch thots, and so on.

imextremelymoderate · 2021-10-13T19:02:01+00:00

Notice how feminists never say porn is degrading for men? That ties into the narrative that men are oppressors and women are victims

imextremelymoderate · 2021-10-13T19:02:36+00:00

End the porn wage gap now! /s

tylerden · 2021-10-12T17:45:23+00:00

Women in general. A women that doesn't do porn is looked at differently because a guy has seen a women that did porn.i get it.

SatiricalDystopia · 2021-10-13T00:08:21+00:00

If people do drugs voluntarily, how is it degrading them?

sleepyJoeBidet · 2021-10-12T18:43:33+00:00

Because it objectifies them. One can degrade oneself. It happens all the time.

Now wether it is empowering or degrading depends on the femanist. Personally I find it degrading to all involved.

SaberSnakeStream · 2021-10-12T19:06:00+00:00

Look at it like this; If men put #KillAllMen on Twitter, how is it degrading them?

Porn is fucked bro. Do not make excuses for that shit simply because the opposition doesn't like it either.

Only_Act6157 · 2021-10-12T20:42:49+00:00

Most do not don't voluntarily and put in positions where consent is not freely given. The porn industry isn't as consensual as they make it out to be. Most of these women are abused, harmed and hurt.

red_constellations · 2021-10-12T19:02:20+00:00

I think this is a nuanced issue (like pretty much almost anything). A woman (or anyone, but for the sake of the question we'll stick to women) doing porn because she enjoys it and likes feeling sexy is of course not degrading. However, I feel like it's a similar argument to "if you don't like your shit job, just get another one". Some women don't do porn out of passion, they do it because they need the low skill, low time consumption job, despite it treating them poorly. Obviously, treating fast food workers as walking burger grills is wrong, but treating porn stars as walking holes seems to be the norm. I do understand that a porn star does have to play a role, but I feel that our treatment vastly differs between male and female porn stars. I don't want pornhub comments to all be "Samantha, I hope you have had a lovely week. I quite enjoyed your performance, and am looking forward to the next one. Stay safe, love goes out to the husband, xoxo PussyDestroyer69", but they could well fall somewhere in between.

The_Observer_Effect · 2021-10-12T23:40:03+00:00

If I point a gun at you and say "give me your money, or I will shoot you". How is that not your choice to pay me or not?

BecuzMDsaid · 2021-10-12T19:23:52+00:00

Because you misunderstand who and what porn targets and how these industries work. There is a lot of research, articles personal stories and even court cases that show how predatory these industries are to marginalized communities (poor, LGBTQ+, undocumented immigrants, persecuted minorities, sexually abused and traumatized people, young, etc.). In fact the sexual abuse thing is so common in the sex industry, it's in tagline is so many jokes.

Then there are the psychological and physical effects of long-term pornographic use, the glamorization of abuse, etc. Not say every single porn production is like this but a vast, VAST majority of them are.

shzoom1 · 2021-10-13T02:33:46+00:00

They don't do it voluntarily..... coz I don't think anyone will sell their body for money voluntarily

BlueBlus · 2021-10-12T19:05:39+00:00

People who do it out of desperation it’s definitely bad. If it’s out of choice then yeah it’s fine. Most of the time desperation porn goes to very sketchy places

AccomplishedTwo7047 · 2021-10-12T19:29:21+00:00

Porn actresses consenting to being degraded does not mean that it isn’t degrading.

If the content is degrading women, it doesn’t matter to the person watching it that the woman consented. The people who star in rape porn (hopefully) consent to the sex being had, but the point is it’s marketed as “rape” to appeal to those who want to watch a woman get raped. Same with any porn that degrades women: even though the women consented behind the scenes, the story being told in the porn is of a woman being degraded without consent.

Update:

Me: explains how, in my experience as a woman, porn can still be degrading regardless of the fact pornstars consent to degradation

Other people: okay but how

RandyRenegade · 2021-10-13T01:39:10+00:00

So the reason women have negative feelings towards porn is because, less so today, but in the past one of the only things that a woman was valued for was sex, beauty, and chastity. There are two relevant implications for this: 1. If a woman is too sexually open she is worthless, and 2. Women will be sexualized against their will and often dehumanized for the sake of sexualizing them. Because of the existence of these 2 standards for women, feminists responded, often simultaneously, with arguments that also seemed contradictory: 1. Women should be able to be ad sexual as they want without judgement 2. Women shouldn't be sexualized by society.

Big however though, because of a century of feminism, we live in a society where the resolution of these standards is within sight. What I mean is that there is a widespread understanding now that shaming women and sexualizing them beyond their consent is a bad thing to do. This is to the extent that assuming that porn will be consumed in a bad way is no longer appropriate. In other words, potentially the actor, producer, and consumer may not he taking part in the degradation of women because of just a change in attitude. That means that porn itself isn't inherently harmful.

For the record, I support men's rights and i often criticize feminism, but i do think it should be judged fairly, so I just wanted to give an accurate view of their arguments.

Title	If women do porn voluntarily, how is it degrading them?
Author	AlphaGoldfish_05
Upvotes	1138
Comments	396
Date	October 12, 2021 3:37 PM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/q6owhj/if_women_do_porn_voluntarily_how_is_it_degrading/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/if-women-do-porn-voluntarily-how-is-it-degrading.1079923 https://theredarchive.com/post/1079923

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