Discussion: Not all men

Arguesovereverythin · 2022-01-25T14:29:58+00:00

This is exactly why I'm in subs like this.

I'm black. So would it be OK to follow me around a store because black people have stolen things? Is Stop and Frisk OK when the only description of the criminal is that he's black?

I'm attracted to men. Should gay men not be allowed to serve in the military because straight men are afraid of unwelcome sexual advances? Is it OK to think that gay men must be pedophiles?

Is it OK to think all women with blonde hair are stupid? Would that change if you and many other men personally knew someone with blonde hair that was stupid?

If she can clearly see why the above 3 are wrong but still argues that she can discriminate against men, then it's time to leave. No amount of discussion or reason will change a bigot because bigotry is in and of itself irrational.

Lianides · 2022-01-25T11:59:43+00:00

The cake analogy suggests that 1 in 3 men are bad/rapists.

So ask them, if you have a son, dad and granddad, then by their standards one of those three is a rapist.

Does that mean they are now unwilling to trust any male family member ever again simply for being male?

Gjaukulf407 · 2022-01-25T12:08:06+00:00

The problem feminists have with "not all men" is that they think men only say it to undermine female victims and misogyny when the real reason we say it is to highlight the fact that not all men are rapists, murderers etc. They don't understand how unsure and frail it makes men feel when we're all portrayed as devilish criminals.

curtwagner1984 · 2022-01-25T11:45:34+00:00

I find it extremely amusing that the very same people who say the argument "I was previously harassed and assaulted by men, so now I'm more cautious and suspicious of men in general" is perfectly reasonable, but if you narrow it down to a specific group of men. Such as "I was harassed by Muslim men, so now I'm more cautious and suspicious of Muslim men." will say you're a crazy racist.

Being suspicious of all men is fine, but being suspicious of a subset of men is a crime against humanity. Even though it follows exactly the same logic.

To your question, the problem here is that the whole premise is fallacious. "I was harassed by a man so I'm more suspicious of men". Being male is not the primary attribute of why you have been harassed. Yet it is presented as such. There are certain attributes in some men that make them a danger or someone to be worried about. And it's true for both men and women.

If I see a man who looks like he can kick my ass and he looks at me in a strange way, I'm suspicious and cautious. It doesn't mean that I should be cautious and suspicious around all men.

As I said in the beginning this type of generalization is frowned upon if you apply it to any other group. People won't herald you as a hero of progressivism if you proudly declare that you're cautious around Mexican people because you were robbed on a trip to Mexico.

majestic_tapir · 2022-01-25T11:32:56+00:00

"if you're given 3 cakes, but 1 cake is poisonous, you wouldn't eat any

Yeah, the comeback to this is:

"If you're given access to a cake factory, and told that 0.03% of the cakes manufactured at this cake factory contain poison, would you eat any cakes?"

Because I know I would. And that's the more realistic percentage of men who are rotten, to put it bluntly.

The problem is, there are a lot of people in the world. If you asked every single 16 yr old girl if they'd been sexually assaulted, a good chunk of them will say no. If you take that same group, and ask them when they're 25, some of them will now be saying yes. Move on to them being 40, ask then, and now the amount is larger. By the time they're close to death, most women will have been sexually assaulted. That's what the maths tell us.

What isn't shown here is the flip-side of the coin. If you asked men the exact same kind of questions, and had them actually be honest about it, you'd most likely come to the same conclusion.

I can't think of many good-looking men who haven't been openly groped by women. I'm about average, and i've been groped whilst working as a waiter, serving bachelorette parties. And that's not counting the sexual assualt I received, from a woman, when I was 6 years old.

And if you'd perhaps be classed as an ugly man, you've probably been sexually assaulted or biased against for other reasons. Perhaps you've been kneed in the balls by a woman, perhaps you've been sexually mocked by a woman, perhaps a woman has stared at you for a bit too long. All of those would fall under the same sexual assault banner as the recent 97% statistic that women had. Using that exact same definition, I reckon we'd get close to 97% of men having been assaulted too.

comatose_papaya · 2022-01-25T11:31:56+00:00

You wouldn't blame the 3 good cakes for the one with poison, so the analogy is bad.

EmirikolWoker · 2022-01-25T13:14:07+00:00

"Not all men" doesn't capture the accurate situation: "hardly any men" is closer. Feminist theory characterises men by the actions of the tiny minority of violent or abusive men, rather than the positive, pro-social traits shared by the general whole.

ABeeBox · 2022-01-25T14:19:31+00:00

You can use the same argument back.

If one mother kills their infant infant, are all mothers bad?

If one dog bites a human, should we euthanize all dogs?

If one doctor abuses his power for malicious reasons, are all doctors bad?

That argument is so absolutely hypocritical because it can be applied to Every. Single. Instance.

Also "not all men" shouldn't even be a necessary argument. If someone really claims that "all 'x' do this" then they're generalising and promoting a stereotype. And I can guarantee you they're actively "against" generalisations and stereotypes when it comes to something they might support.

Langland88 · 2022-01-25T13:52:56+00:00

My problem that I have is that our gender is practically a scapegoat for all the bad things in the world. So it gets tiring to blamed for things I didn't have any control over. I get told that these women are just frustrated and airing their frustrations. I'm told not to take them seriously but honestly, my patience has been worn thin. At what point do these ladies finally get all of their frustrations out of their systems and move on? At this point they have yet to do that from my observation.

harleypig · 2022-01-25T15:14:49+00:00

Approximately 70% of children killed by a parent are killed by the mother. Looks like anyone who wants to be a mother should be treated with suspicioun.

ElfmanLV · 2022-01-25T14:17:15+00:00

It's just sexism, and you don't need to add anything beyond that. Think about it. One black person robs a convenient store, what kind of a lunatic would you be if you said "I can't trust black people in our store"? Use that same cake analogy, you're still an ignorant racist, and so should whomever is using that to villify men.

MutantKeyboard · 2022-01-25T11:27:30+00:00

But "Not all cakes are poisonous".

Kindly-Town · 2022-01-25T14:29:51+00:00

Just ask even black men too?

KnowerJay · 2022-01-25T14:17:02+00:00

There's a difference here between practicality and justifying shaming. I get if women want to be cautious with dating, quite frankly I'm empathetic. What I don't get is why women will use this argument to shame men and silence their voices. "A very small percentage of men do bad things, therefore you aren't allowed to have an opinion." Seems like quite the far fetched argument, doesn't it?

Edit: I thought of another counter-argument.

There are some men who aren't that strong physically, they are generally strong in other areas like their intellect or their EQ. Should they then shame other men and adopt the belief that "some men, therefore all men"? At that point they'd be shaming themselves. A lot of women don't understand that men are, at least, just as likely to be victims of violence to other men. That's not to mention physical abuse from women that gets minimized and played for laughs.

Algiz56 · 2022-01-25T11:48:17+00:00

I view a person using this argument, as someone having enough time to waste it on a stupid conversation with feminists.

There is no point in arguing with feminists. Their arguments (not their actions, though), are better to be ignored and not taken seriously (because most of them are either manipulation, lies or mental disorder).

There is a point, however, to argue with let's say, electorate, to debunk feminists ideas from their heads.

matrix2002 · 2022-01-25T15:44:19+00:00

Another counter argument is that men are victims of violence more often than women, so men are actually at MORE risk than women in general.

I think what's different from a women's perspective is that almost all men are stronger and more powerful than almost all women. So, from their thinking, it's scary because almost all men are a physical threat.

Where as from a man's perspective, we kind of think we have an idea of who is a threat to us. Both of these are not very well thought out, because if men are victims of violence more than women, we obviously aren't doing a very good job of protecting ourselves. And for women to be scared of all men, it's just dumb.

Yet another counter is that women are more likely to be assaulted by men they know personally where the men often use their relationship with the woman to get them to let their guard down, then they strike.

So, if a women only distrusts men they don't know, they are again making a mistake.

For me, in reality, it's important to stress stopping ALL violence regardless of gender.

Here is a good article that has some interesting stats in it.

In the year sampled, men were murdered 4 times more than women. I don't know how you get around that. Men are clearly at a much higher risk for being victims of violence than women.

https://time.com/2921491/hope-solo-women-violence/

Lethal_Ledgend · 2022-01-26T06:34:05+00:00

I prefer to use the term "not just men" because it reminds them that women are just as capable of what ever atrocity they are discussing.

63daddy · 2022-01-25T17:50:29+00:00

I just speak for myself. I’ve never raped or sexually assaulted anyone and I’m not responsible for the actions of others. Just because someone is the same sex as me, doesn’t make me responsible for their actions.

Crimes and other behaviors are committed by individuals, not by a sex.

420Riffs · 2022-01-26T04:36:21+00:00

I think saying "not all men" is a very weak and poor reply to anything. It's like putting yourself in a puppy vs lion situation.

It's like if a big bully pushes around a little kid because of his startrek lunchbox and the kid goes "stop. Startrek is cool. My mom bought that for me"

It makes sense, but psychologically won't work.

Women will just say "so you're still saying most men do"

It's better to use yourself or people she wouldn't want to insult as examples. "So you're saying I'm a rapist?" If there's a crowd around.

Or if there's no one around/people who will always side with her, "so you're saying your dad/brother/bf/son is a rapist?"

Or just turn it onto the opposite gender altogether. Something like "women do x, does that mean all women do x?" Etc

sneedchuckfuck · 2022-01-25T14:15:38+00:00

[permanently deleted]

LondonDude123 · 2022-01-25T13:15:05+00:00

if you're given 3 cakes, but 1 cake is poisonous, you wouldn't eat any".

Well off 1 in 3 is nowhere NEAR 4% so whoevers telling you that is wrong on that fact. Im gonna use the 1 chocolate in a chocolate box analogy...

What you say is this: If I HAD to eat a chocolate, then you can be sure I would do everything in my power to make sure that the chocolate was safe. I would be sniffing it, inspecting it in case it looks different, breaking it open and seeing if the inside melts, hell I might even take a sample to a lab somewhere. The point is, I would do everything to make sure that im not eating poison, BEFORE I eat poison. I shouldnt HAVE to do all that, because its a box of chocolate and there shouldnt be poison in it, but thats not the world we live in. Im gonna do as much as I can to make sure im not eating the poison, BEFORE I take a bite...

urbana1 · 2022-01-25T15:12:06+00:00

Some women choose to kill their babies before they are born. Should we collectively blame all women for foetal murder? Arguably the biggest genocide of our times. In many cases backed my the state. Maybe we should stay away from all women due to collective guilt lol. That’s how ridiculous their arguments are.

RandomEqualist · 2022-01-25T15:15:31+00:00

Why would you engage someone who starts off by saying “all men…”? I just leave at that point. I’m not obligated to convince idiots that their ideas are dumb.

auMatech · 2022-01-25T16:00:25+00:00

"Not all X" is a loaded term.. It implies "but most" while also encompassing "some", " many", "a few" and "nearly all".

It's a way of saying "all X" while providing a motte as "not all".

It's incredibly important to take back control of the argument, instead of stating something like " not all men or women do X", it's far more effective and productive to state "a small outlying group of men and women do X".

ToadGamaken · 2022-01-25T17:01:06+00:00

Just tell them only siths deal in absolutes

Responsible-Bid-8934 · 2022-01-25T19:24:00+00:00

Normally the conversation is about about rape or sexual assault, the correct response isn't 'not all men' its 'the absolute overwhelming majority of humankind'

pbj_sammichez · 2022-01-25T20:37:42+00:00

I'll do ya one better: how often do you hear women say (regarding men), "I can't tell by looking who the good ones are." They do it without realizing that's exactly what pearl-clutching white women said about black people. Don't trust one of them because they might actually be one of the bad ones. It's racism, and this argument only serves to justify prejudice. Telling this to the women at 2-x got me banned from their subreddit. I guess pointing out that feminists are so sexist they sound like racists... was not a desirable thing for the mods. Or maybe, in their eyes, it's ok to be hateful toward men because soooo many men victimize women (yeah, except most victims of crime are men because even criminals don't want to hurt women)... Totally not prejudice, dawg. It's legit because feminists said so. Totally legit.

ConductionReduction · 2022-01-25T23:39:38+00:00

I feel like sometimes this sub can be guilty of grouping women as a whole but subs like female dating strategy use this argument against guys CONSTANTLY

there is always this part of me that wants to stand up to these subs and people but I'm so powerless and alone. It hurts me in one way or another every single day

LettuceBeGrateful · 2022-01-26T01:30:02+00:00

I don't feel guilty about saying "not all men" if someone genuinely makes a generalization, and there's no wiggle room in the context of what she's saying. Men who generalize women have been called incels for a decade. There's no reasonable explanation for objecting to a form of bigotry for women, but then deriding those same objections when they surround men.

togotfury1983 · 2022-01-26T08:34:37+00:00

I would point out that their vilification of an entire group would not be acceptable with any other group. Black people are criminals, Muslims are terrorists, etc

NwbieGD · 2022-01-25T15:21:01+00:00

Make the question abstract, cake is a good idea, I like to use X and Y. Then afterwards show them that they are hypocrite by replacing the abstract parts.

By example, if you get beaten up/abused by "X" then you can't trust any/most "X's".

So do they agree with,
if you get beaten up/abused by a man then you can't trust most men.
If they agree then ask about the following,
If you get beaten up/abused by a woman then you can't trust most women.
Or
If you get beaten up/abused by a black person then you can't trust most black people.

Etc, etc, etc

If they agree with 1 or with abstract statement they need to agree with all of them or they are simply hypocrite and inconsistent (or lack of logic).

Of course everyone will say this is dumb and is of course a fallacy, often called a hasty generalisation or over-generalisation:
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Overgeneralization
https://owl.excelsior.edu/argument-and-critical-thinking/logical-fallacies/logical-fallacies-hasty-generalization/
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faulty_generalization
https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/Hasty-Generalization

Lastly answer, well in that case aren't all women emotionally abusive/manipulative and gold-diggers? You don't have to mean it, it's meant to proof that such faulty generalisations are dumb as fuck, it isn't all nor a majority, neither for men, nor women, or any race.

Furthermore don't say not all men, say that it's done by a minority, or that the majority isn't at fault thus not to blame.

SilentLurker666 · 2022-01-25T15:33:22+00:00

The problem of the left is that, in other for their theory to work (men vs women, rich vs poor, left vs right) they all have to hard divide people by their idenities, and there can't be overlaps in their idenities (poor male can't be victims)... so when "not all men" comes out... ask them how we can't use "all muslims", or "all communist" or even "all feminist".

Ozhubdownunder · 2022-01-25T21:20:19+00:00

Rather than say not all men, respond using the same tactic. “Why do women think it is okay to stereotype but it’s not okay for women to be stereotyped? Why are women so hypocritical?” It is a loaded question that overgeneralises women to make highlight the original author’s hypocrisy . Or a shorter version. “ I would also ask Women, stop your childish, sexist stereotyping.”

ralphswanson · 2022-01-25T18:05:59+00:00

'Not all men' is another campaign feminists use to shame people from calling out their misandry and bigotry. Feminists love to generalize men as criminals, rapists, bad parents, and violent, as well as powerful, and rich. Clear sexism. Feminists are shaming people from pointing this out. Critics should know that feminist do not mean 'all men'. Some men is enough. Please to not apply this logic to blacks, jews, or other groups. That would make you a bigot.

This highlights hypocrisy in feminism. Feminist claim to fight sexism but actually are the worst sexism themselves.

Fast_Box_8509 · 2022-01-25T16:56:41+00:00

Find a new way of saying it.

People have literally been trained, whether by the prevailing cultural narrative, or the left-leaning media outlets that parrot it, to instinctually shut down those three words.

It's a meme in and of itself, it's become so widely abused.

Am I suggesting something as simple as a semantic shift? Yes.

Try something like: "I'm not responsible for how someone else I've never met behaves," if you're getting flak from some woman about a hypothetical harassment or instance of violence.

Also "Citation missing" is a nice one.

And, as others have pointed out, it's nice to bring the hysterical feminist or feminist-ally down to earth when they start spouting ridiculous, exaggerated statistics.

Be specific, rip apart their argument. Stop using catch-phrases as an aegis against actually doing the work to prove someone wrong.

And, it goes without saying, but pick your battles! Heh.

turbulance4 · 2022-01-25T19:01:45+00:00

The thing is it's not "not all men". It's "not most men" or "not the vast majority of men"

Rock1589 · 2022-01-25T21:37:30+00:00

I know not all black people steal, but enough black people steal that i have to be cautious of all black people.

Feminists use the exact same "arguments" that racists use.

imgurRefugee85 · 2022-01-25T16:40:23+00:00

I think the mockery of the "not all men" argument comes from the same mentality as the mockery of the "pick me" girls.

"If you don't conform, you are the enemy." ~tyrants

Neppy_sama · 2022-01-25T13:31:26+00:00

If an illegal organization of assassins trains only woman and run by women gets to government lights and media. I would probably say they would only get bailed out after a decade for maximum or before.

Whereas if it's on the flip side, well each assassins (say men here) would be named as serial killers and would have served life imprisonment or tragically death sentence.

Even if they done the same number of kill rate. Men are more or less considered evil stereotype. And gets rejected by leniency on court judgements even if they're the breadwinner of their family.

ratione_materiae · 2022-01-25T15:16:56+00:00

I came across a supposedly counter argument to this which goes along the lines of "if you're given 3 cakes, but 1 cake is poisonous, you wouldn't eat any".

I would suggest that it's unwise to contest the statistical veracity of this analogy because that's missing the forest for the trees. The fact of the matter is that men are more dangerous than women. I'm an able-bodied man, but if I were walking home at night I would much rather walk past a group of women than a group of men. That's just simple pattern recognition and grounded in basic biology.

Instead contest the central assumption of collective responsibility – it's common sense that it would be unreasonable to hold the imam at the local mosque responsible for 9/11 just because Osama Bin Laden was also a muslim.

Keeks42069 · 2022-01-26T01:51:48+00:00

This argument used to bother me a lot literally seeing women bashing men on every form of media but then I realize these women live there life in fear of what any man could possibly do which is pretty sad when you think about it now I just feel bad that’s their mentality. All I can do I just keep being a better man

patxiku93 · 2022-01-25T14:12:37+00:00

Like with most things, if you need to specify Not all men before you say anything it is all men. Just like I'm not racist but

2wicky · 2022-01-26T00:37:31+00:00

If you can't tell which cakes are poisened, then you probably should leave the cakes to someone else who can tell the difference and simply stick to vegetables instead.

But that may come across as a personal attack and so for the sake of civility, I would make it about me:

I'm personally not concerned with the odds of poisened cakes. Wether it's just one in a thousand women that are rotten, or three out four, I will always check their expiry date first. /s

Fragrant-Resist4230 · 2025-03-16T13:16:43+00:00

not all men but always men

DanteLivra · 2022-01-25T16:04:27+00:00

If you want to live in fear, don't blame men for your lack of opportunities in life.

Eat any of the cake, bring a friend if you suspect poison and in any case, you can call an ambulance, we live in 2022 not 1066.

North Korea is a tyranny, should I avoid visiting any country just in case I end up in a tyranny ?

1% of the population is a psychopath, 1% of that 1% will commit murder, should I avoid all humans ?

There's 0.0001% that I develop a sudden allergy reaction whenever I eat something, I can always call for help with my phone, should I just stop eating all together ?

The argument of #enough men is stupid and advocate for women living in fear and being compliant just like feminists say that they SHOULD NOT be.

Emet22 · 2022-01-25T14:44:02+00:00

Not all men? It's not even mostly men, it's a very tiny sliver of men. And the ones that are bad, a woman can easily spot which ones are bad.

Really. Most of these women who get in involved with these "bad men" are often self loathing, self destructive, or ignorant and naive.

An intelligent woman knows how to spot a decent man.

RicardoSins_69420 · 2022-01-25T15:38:57+00:00

To the cake thing: they also say that not all Feminists are like that. I can say that I would avoid all feminists but I think that im not better than them in any way by doing this. I know that there are feminists you can talk to and try to convince them and I know that there are the others where you just can say: you're right and I can get my rest

bluehorserunning · 2022-01-25T16:31:50+00:00

If 1 in 4 cakes is poisonous, and you really like cake, then you develop tests to figure out which cakes are poisonous.

throwawayincelacc · 2022-01-25T16:34:43+00:00

about 4% of humans are sociopaths, should i avoid everyone then?

Rationale like this probably won't make much impact on a feminist. Remember, they're intentionally being idiots with examples like this.

Either

1) They truly believe 1/3 men are rapists, which ignores all statistics.

2) They're pushing an agenda to limit rights of men.

And in either of these cases, the likelihood that they've faced serious impact from a sociopath is quite low. So in they're mind they'll just tell themselves "well I've never seen anything happen with a sociopath in my life so I can ignore it but my friend on twitter made a #MeToo so clearly rapes are more common"

Some things to point out:

1) The poisonous cake example is a fallacious argument in two aspects. One is that it ignores facts, and two is that it's a false equivalence. A cake that will immediately kill you upon eating it vs being asked out by a man is not the same thing. Flip it around and say "if you had 10000 cakes and one of them would give you a stomach ache, would you eat one?"

2) If this fails and they truly believe 1/3 men are evil, they will almost definitely have more than 3 men in their lives. Further, they're generalizing an entire group off a minority that even they recognize is still a minority in all their delusions. "So your husband, father, grandfather, uncle, friends are all rapists?"

3) Flip the script. "So I can say all women are gold diggers?" "Women use sex to advance in business which means they're less qualified than men who succeed on skill and results." If they can generalize all men from a minority of men, why can't we?

Remember that your goal is not to attack women, it's to highlight the fallacies that they're using in a way that they can understand.

sneedchuckfuck · 2022-01-25T17:50:47+00:00

I believe it is a good argument if elaborated properly.

It IS a good argument even if it's not elaborated properly. It's not my fault that they've got it all wrong. Feminists have absolutely controlled the narrative on this issue and have made out the people defending men from unjust accusations to be the bad guys. Saying something over and over again doesn't make it true. And that's what has happened. Feminist narratives about men have simply been repeated ad nauseum in popular culture, and people just accept it because "well the google search results say that it's a justified response, so that makes it okay". You are not the bad guy for not catering to their paranoia. We live in an upside down world, and this is one of the things we just have to deal with. Don't guilt yourself into thinking that they have a point when they don't, and they only "have a point" because they've brute forced their way into the public conversation with their ideological garbage.

thefujirose · 2022-01-25T18:18:05+00:00

We know that there are 7 billion people on the planet and about half is men. To assert that over 3 billion of our population behaves a certain way or is a risk is absurd.

RandomEqualist · 2022-01-25T16:33:41+00:00

i think its fair for women to feel this way, not everyone has to trust you or want you and i think the best way to solve isnt saying "yeah but im a nice guy, i would never do that! im one of the good ones!" and rather trying to find the route of why women are fearing men and not wanting to bring them into their lives, if we find the reason then we can work to stopping the issue

randomdragen · 2022-01-25T15:03:37+00:00

sunlight_gaps · 2022-01-26T05:08:24+00:00

How about not using analogies at all. If women know that certain portion of all men could be a rapist for example, then why wouldnt we be cautious? All we know is that there is a chance and that we have no idea what the odds are with a specific person

Also why do you become so defensive when something negative about men is brought up? Many men dont find an issue in it as it doesnt apply to them. Im white and if a black person was to talk about their frustration/anger with white people my reaction would never be “but its not all white people!!”

Independent-Cat-5427 · 2022-01-27T02:15:33+00:00

as a female i do understand that it’s not all men but as a victim i have to look out for men. it’s not that i’m scared of men i have to keep a eye out because both men and women can mess up and hurt you. the saying “all men” isn’t truly saying all men assault someone but if you sit and talk to a group of females a large amount has either been assaulted or harassed. it’s harsh on each side and people we aren’t here to tear down men the right ones just want to educate so we can start protecting others!

dat_annoying_bitch · 2022-01-25T15:34:04+00:00

Oh god what a coincidence. Today i watched this video and it has changed my views a bit about all the not all men reply. Not all men but a lot of men or enough men. And i came to this sub to discuss exactly this topic.

EnvironmentalWar4627 · 2022-01-25T11:51:59+00:00

People don't seem to have issues with generalizing women

Is it only wrong when women do it?

taoofmojo · 2022-01-25T15:22:40+00:00

Its a argument of Equivocation go buy a book on logical fallacy. Because you are so beautiful

the_girl_Ross · 2022-01-26T13:41:54+00:00

It's a poor phase.

"Not all men" is usually use against "all women" but why?

"All women" isn't about men, it's about women. It's not about all men commit crime against women nor all men do anything. It's about women being the victim of crimes.

And instead of showing those victims the support that they need or confronting the criminal, you make it about yourself.

A woman say "this happened to me, someone did it". Instead of saying "I'm sorry it happened to you, that person is not a good human being". By saying "not all men", you basically say "I didn't do it, my friends don't do it"

But that woman never say you do it? Why do you make it about yourself?

It's the same as BLM and ALM. Saying BLM doesn't mean other lives don't matter, it simply means we are talking about black people but instead of showing them support, you just go "you mean other lives don't matter?" That's never the conversation.

Edit: grammar.

Lasttoflinch · 2022-01-25T11:49:43+00:00

Not all women or not all anything are just as applicable, in just about any context. It's a pretty meaningless phrase.

RicardoSins_69420 · 2022-01-25T15:39:16+00:00

To say something about this: they also say that not all Feminists are like that. I can say that I would avoid all feminists but I think that im not better than them in any way by doing this. I know that there are feminists you can talk to and try to convince them and I know that there are the others where you just can say: you're right and I can get my rest

Rad_Knight · 2022-01-25T17:58:23+00:00

It is such a half truth, that it is worse than a lie. It's very few men.

Crazy_Psychopath · 2022-01-25T18:08:56+00:00

It depends on what argument the other side is making really.

If they're talking about all men collectively being horrible and how all men should change or be punidhed then "not all men" is valid

If the discussion itself isn't talking about all men and just mentions singular personal experiences or just a subgroup then there's no logic to using "not all men"

NewAccount294939499 · 2022-01-25T19:05:49+00:00

Instead of saying “not all men” it’s better to say “not 99.5% of men” that’s puts it into perspective better

xcheshirecatxx · 2022-01-25T19:10:51+00:00

The thing is that the whole world is made of cakes with poisonous cakes amongst them Women included

Antanarau · 2022-01-25T19:27:19+00:00

The "not all men" is just as bad as "not all black people" (or "not all muslims" or whatever). Its all you need to say.

Aurelius-chfn09a · 2022-01-25T20:24:13+00:00

We all draw general conclusions from particular cases; it's called inductive logic. I would say that when it comes to social situations, the degree to which we should let this kind of reasoning determine our response depends on two things: the amount of supporting evidence you have, and the amount of risk you're taking if you happen to be mistaken.

eldred2 · 2022-01-25T20:50:06+00:00

Not eating a cake does no one harm. Blaming/punishing an innocent person for the crimes committed by others does harm to that person.

johdavis02 · 2022-01-25T21:17:55+00:00

Okay but I also see many stories from men on here who have been falsely accused, and later have trouble trusting women. That is also valid, even thought not ALL women have falsely accused them.

Even though most women haven’t falsely accused a man, it is completely fair for a man who has gone through that to not trust most women. It’s simply a psychological response to the trauma. Even if you were not the one falsely accused, if something like that happens to someone you know, that would also impact how you feel around women. You could logically know that not all women are like that, but you would still be cautious bc of what happened to you or someone you know.

In the same way, it makes sense for a women who has been assaulted/harassed by a man to not trust most men. It’s also, simply a psychological response to the trauma. Also, consider the fact that most women know someone who has been assaulted. It makes sense that they would have trouble trusting men if something like that happened to them or someone they know. This isn’t even their fault, like I said it’s a trauma response.

Prestigious_Olive467 · 2022-01-25T22:16:53+00:00

You dont need the not all men argument, they know its not all men. It wont change their view either because their opinions are often based on experiences

Flashy_Glove6208 · 2022-01-25T22:39:35+00:00

You cannot reason with indoctrinated feminists who don't accept data and logic.

Don't waste your time, just walk away and live your best life.

ApprehensiveMail8 · 2022-01-25T22:40:00+00:00

How exactly is the way that people are treating men (or whatever group) at all like eating cake (skittles)?

Would it make sense to bring all three cakes into a room and lecture them about how they shouldn't be poison? As though this would make them safer to eat?

Would it make sense to assume that cookies are never poison? If we come across a cookie and cake sitting next to each other, and "that cake is poison" is written in frosting on the cookie and "that cookie is poison" is written on the cake should we just believe the cookie, because statistically most poisoned pastries are cakes?

Should we not eat anything, ever, because it might be poison?

The only way this analogy makes any sense at all is if we accept the presumption that the victim of the poisoning has taken some voluntary action which directly enabled the poisoning and that they could have prevented by being more prejudiced.

Isn't that victim blaming, at the very least?

Iceman_Hottie · 2022-01-25T22:50:23+00:00

There are ways to mitigate the risks, the problems with that are: 1. It requires accepting responsibility for doing the things that mitigate the risks. Basically - become an adult. 2.In doing so you will gain the habits and knowledge nesessary to solve your own problems, thus having no need for outsourcing that responsibility. This makes you harder to control and scam, which is the bread and butter of all of the groups that seek to propagate the men=bad narrative. That also means that if you think for yourself they can't embesel/racket money from the charity's and organisations. 3. By taking things into your own hands you start learning - which doesn't make you a lot of "friends", as you start to see the gaps in logic, same logical constructs. Example how most people don't know where the word terrorism comes from, or why all left-wing based movements invariably lead to horrible outcomes (for example concentration camps, effectively slave labour) .

If you live in fear you will never do the things that make life worth living, that however doesn't mean you should do stupid things.

KingJamerson · 2022-01-25T23:02:18+00:00

No. I wouldn't eat any of the cake. But every cake slice in every cake in the world isn't poinous. A group of men might have a rapist. But not every group of men have a rapist.

I remember telling a woman that this logic is the same that racists use. She denied it and said "No. Because men are a gender not a race" I never implied that she was being racist. Nor did I imply that men are a race. She took the word "race" out of my statement and ran with it.

She couldn't even see the problem in this logic. But if it were "all women kill their babies" I'm pretty sure everyone would call sexism and wouldn't allow any man to justify that generalization by using the "three slices, one poisonous" or "basket of berries, some poisonous" analogy.

Makes me wanna fucking off myself as a guy because of the stupid outrageous double standards people create. I'm taking a break from the fucking internet, I need to clean my mind and focus on other shit before my pink tissue explodes.

HUZNAIN · 2022-01-26T02:06:26+00:00

i know it's an appeal to hypocrisy, therefore should not be taken seriously;

feminists: "we know not all Men but we don't know which Men."

also feminists: "they're just pseudofeminists, they're not real feminists, don't generalise feminists."

ValuableWeb0 · 2022-01-26T03:03:47+00:00

All I know is that among the feminist community the "not all men" phrase is a real headache because they already know it's not all men, but it's still so many men doing these things that women have to be afraid to go out at night. To them, "not all men" is a spit in the face because certain men are using it to wave away what their saying by saying that "not all men are like that."

For that reason, I try to use drastically different wording. I don't make my whole point that it's not all men, because that point is redundant. Instead I just try to.. you know... have an honest conversation with them. One where both of us are listening to each other earnestly and both our opinions can be changed when we hear each others POV's.

TFME1 · 2022-01-26T03:11:16+00:00

The "3 cakes" mentality is purely the realm of the "Risk Intolerant" cowards who will likely become housebound sweatpant wearing shut-ins before too long. Life is filled with risk, from beginning to end. Some people think risk can be "eradicated".

Hint: It can't be eradicated and the risk intolerant cowards will continue to attempt to "eradicate" all risk, but fail miserably. They'll grow completely confused by their failure, but keep trying... And the rest of society will suffer for their lunacy, stupidity and cowardice.

If you don't accept ANY risk in your life, you'll die broke and alone, more often than not.

MLK has a number of quotes about not being free unless one sheds their fear of their own death. He got it. He understood this concept. How quickly that seems to have been forgotten by all the "Social Justice Warrior" cowards who claim to worship him.

xxxjwxxx · 2022-01-26T04:06:30+00:00

Before I even read your sociopaths comment, I was going to say that 2-3% of men are sociopaths and they are responsible for 50% of all crime and 90% of all violent crime.

iainmf · 2022-01-26T06:40:37+00:00

"if you're given 3 cakes, but 1 cake is poisonous, you wouldn't eat any".

Actually, we deal with this in real life with food. For example, with rhubarb we cut of the poisonous leaves and keep the edible stalks. Similar thing for some food that is potentially spoiled. We identify which ones are spoiled and keep the good ones.

DannyLovesDachshunds · 2022-01-26T08:24:38+00:00

I want to laugh when someone says “Not all men have penises.”

Huffers1010 · 2022-01-26T19:06:34+00:00

The statistics underlying this stuff are slightly complicated.

One example is that the oft-quoted statistic about men being on average more violent than women is true, but people who don't know about terms like "median" and "mean" and "standard deviation" won't fully understand what this means. The reality is that it's more accurate to say "the majority of the most violent people in society will be men," but all of this is a bit too complicated for a Twitter post, which is one reason social media is a cancer on society.

Nuance matters, and we live in a world of little nuance.

qalle2 · 2023-04-01T20:14:56+00:00

The 1930s German book "The Poisonous Mushroom" compares the difficulty of determining a person's race to the difficulty of telling poisonous mushrooms apart from non-poisonous ones.

Title	Discussion: Not all men
Author	comatose_papaya
Upvotes	370
Comments	266
Date	January 25, 2022 11:19 AM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/scbga4/discussion_not_all_men/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/discussion-not-all-men.1097649 https://theredarchive.com/post/1097649

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