Multiple American Surveys show common factors leading to divorce: Lack Of Commitment, Adultery, and Constant Arguing

LillthOfBabylon · 2022-04-26T17:26:48+00:00

Here. A group of surveys taken from different years, different states, and different sources look at the reasons multiple couples get divorced. The top 5...

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That's what I would be leaning towards as well.

We live in a unique time period where women aren't reliant on and are even exceeding men if they have the ability and drive. Outside of social tradition there's no reason for them to stay in marriages they don't deem benefit them financially or emotionally. I believe there is a bit of cognitive dissonance that is leading people to wind up alone.

Whether men will have to step up to fill additional roles to secure partnerships or women will have to adjust to their newfound tier in society remains to be seen. I don't think it's a good trend overall for society until we figure out exactly what's wrong and how it can be fixed. I don't think the answer is people growing alone with pets.

I just wouldn't want to make an absolutist claim without hard data, but that is my feeling.

[–]neetykeeno 5 points6 points7 points 4 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

I don't think it is particularly difficult for a couple to have a marriage that both feels benefits them...at least not difficult in terms of work that needs doing. Humans work as teams, always have since before we were properly human even.

What seems difficult is getting on the same page in understanding how the balance sheet works. Nobody likes someone who is a million in debt rocking up to cash a hundred dollar cheque every day then getting sulky when it gets declined. And some.of the biggest draws on the account can be the stupidest things it is so easy to avoid doing if someone will just admit they are being infuriating. I swear if I ever had to have another argument with either of my exes about why when I say "I am heading out to shop at the supermarket do you want anything" I do not mean "I want you to start an argument over why we should go together, spend an hour on the way with you running your errands, have you being impatient and hurried at the supermarket so my top priority turns out to be your feelings not what food I am buying and how.much it costs, and then when we get home have you plonk yourself on the couch while I unload the groceries and you act like you somehow made that better for.me.than me just going to the supermarket.

I mean what the fuck is it with guys that they can't understand how to help or get out the way but FFS don't be a hindrance. Just withdrawal after withdrawal from the account until I am on my last effing nerve.

I have never shared accommodation with a woman who couldn't function as a team that way. I have never known an all female household that didn't function seamlessly. But I have literally known only two men who could do it...my maternal grandfather and my sisters husband.

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I would call analyzing multiple studies on the topic pretty comprehensive

It's really not when you look at the age and exactly what those studies were researching.

It's referencing to other sources and the one with people 52 comes from the most reliable source

Yes it's referencing other sources but I'm saying those aren't even entirely conclusive and some of them have extremely outdated data. The AARP source is geared for people 50+ and it came out in 2004, those people are in their 70s now. I would think when we're discussing sex and gender issues we're talking about people of our generation(unless you're that old).

The one with 52 people is the most reliable source, but that sample size by itself isn't enough to make claims about the entire nation. It's ridiculous to claim the strongest evidence is from the article dealing with 52 people and we're claiming that's a large enough trend for the entire nation(s).

From your own most reliable source: "Few studies have directly examined retrospective reports of reasons for divorce, particularly within the past two decades and no study, to our knowledge, has examined reasons for divorce in a sample of individuals who participated in the same relationship education program."

In other words that source is meant specifically to measure people who have gone through their PREP program and see how it could be improved, not as a general statement of marriage trends. Did you even read the abstract?

[–]LillthOfBabylon[S] -4 points-3 points-2 points 4 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

It's really not when you look at the age and exactly what those studies were researching.

What's so different about marriages now that the studies from 2000 to 2013 can't apply?

The AARP source is geared for people 50+ and it came out in 2004, those people are in their 70s now.

So one source. What about the others?

The one with 52 people is the most reliable source, but that sample size by itself isn't enough

Thank goodness they also referenced a study with 1,000 people and it showed similar results to the one with 52 people.

In other words that source is meant specifically to measure people who have gone through their PREP program

Again, that's why they REFERENCED MULTIPLE STUDIES. That's why I picked the particular link. It didn't show just one link and compared-and-contrasted the results.

Not seeing how you're calling not comprehensive. You're nitpicking at particular flaws that other studies don't have or are irrelevant.

[–]Blackmagician🫠 8 points9 points10 points 4 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

What's so different about marriages now that the studies from 2000 to 2013 can't apply?

You don't think our society has shifted massively in the last 20 years? You don't think the things people want and accept from their partners now are massively different? Especially when we're going to the extremes of 70 year olds who have completely different societal makeup, attitudes, and economic realities?

Thank goodness they also referenced a study with 1,000 people and it showed similar results to the one with 52 people.

This one?

"A sample of 886 individual divorcing parents in Hennepin County, Minnesota, in 2008 responded to a brief survey after mandated parenting classes."

If you don't understand why a survey of people in one specific area, people who were forced to take parenting classes by the court isn't representative of the general population and is another glaring indicator that the claims of the site is faulty I truly don't know what to say...

This article wouldn't be considered reliable in any academic sense. That's why it's an article on a shitty divorce services website and not an actual comprehensive study looking at previous studies. I would even accept the validity of the AARP study if it was being put forth in an accurate study thats looking at divorce trends. The fact that it's trying to focus on 70+ year old people, a study with 52 people and a study with 886 terrible parents as an indicator of a wider trend says it all.

You seem more to want to be blindly right than actually looking at the accuracy of the data and the point trying to be conveyed, so I'll leave you to that.

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I don't know how much due diligence was done in your link though. Let me just give one example:

I wanted to see the actual studies they were referring to. So I went to this line that had links

Surveys by Insider.com, The Huffington Post, Forbes, and the NCBI found a diversity of reasons for couples to initiate the divorce process.

The first and last one point to the exact same study down to the URL (for the first one you have to click a second link within it). I don't know if they're double dipping or what, but to me it seems pretty unprofessional. They're trying to make it seem there are more sources than there are. And this was just the first thing found after 2 mins looking at it, I'm sure there's a lot more basic things wrong with it. The fact that I saw this in 2 mins makes me doubt the due diligence of your post itself tbh.

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No, because they're not offering enough areas. If we saw for example the same thing(generally) in Hennepin County, Minnesota and New York City and Chicago and Nashville, across a much wider set of people then the claim would be stronger. For something to be accepted as scientific data it has to be something that is reproducible among enough people and enough areas.

You could make a claim for instance from the data that divorce in Hennepin County is a result of the men refusing to milk the cows and an argument could be made that it's the same as men in NYC who refuse to take out the trash or something, they could be categorized under the same label, but we don't have the data. The article is making a claim with an extremely limited amount of data and that is misleading.

If this is something you're interested in and you're not in college yet I'd suggest to you to take some hard or social science classes that deal with data or statistics.

[–]LillthOfBabylon[S] 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Blackmagician🫠 5 points6 points7 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Technically, your criticism applies to all studies, even those in high regards. Everyone can bullshit their results and you wouldn't know. That's why I "stupidly" relied on quantity.

It doesn't. Because studies held in high regard are reproducible in terms of data gathered and argument made. There literally isn't enough evidence here and the stuff that is here is pretty shoddy. There are ways in which we can seek to get accuracy in studies, multiple studies can even conflict but the entire goal is to get enough reproducible data where we can point to something being arguably true.

You're not doing it "stupidly" I can tell that you're trying, but you're also doubling down and being rude instead of being willing to even accept information from people who may know more than you.

Cool, you gonna front the money for me to do the study? You realize what you're asking for requires alot of money most people aren't willing to put in, right?

Not in a position to help you, but I'd encourage you to seek ways to make it happen whether now or in the future. You are trying more than the average person who posts something on reddit going by the headline alone and not even reading the article. It's a great thing to have an inquisitive and scientific mind whether it's trained or untrained. If you want free places to start I'd suggest something like

https://www.edx.org/course/quantitative-and-qualitative-research-for-beginners

https://www.edx.org/

https://pll.harvard.edu/catalog/free

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See I think this IS whats wrong. Every girl I've dated, has thought we were some perfect match made in heaven...until we weren't.

I think

absolute surety that the relationship is true love, the best thing you’ve ever experienced, and you should have zero doubts about marrying them.

Is too much of an expectation. I think this is what we were sold. That marriage is fun, entertaining, magical, and fulfilling. Our grandparents would tell you it was a job. Hard work. Most people in the past were likely beaten by their parents. It was never this perfect thing.

I think we need to be more realistic and stick with what we started because 25yrs in is the payoff the same way listening to an opera or reading an epic novel is gratifying. You only hear the best riff once or the climax of the book once or twice. We aren't meant to be junkies for love. You appreciate things more when you invest and wait for them.

Tldr: just stick with someone non abusive.

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I made the mistake of assuming common sense.

That's why younger couples divorce more than older couples. Making big decision based on pure feelings is the worst idea EVER. Maturity and effort are needed.

I have an aunt and uncle that are deeply in love and said what you said. Keep in mind, they've almost divorced three times. My uncle was an alcoholic, with a DUI, totaled my aunt's car. They also implied there's been some infidelity. And they spent a whole year arguing over my cousin's disabilities and how to handle it. They're still married, and happily so, thanks to couple's therapy, rehab, communication, re-evaluating the relationship. Basically, EFFORT. It's a bit more extreme than Complex Glass was saying, but effort was still needed. They've also admitted there were times the love faded and they were bored before they found that spark again.

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Look, I had surety, and we both grew apart. Had 8 years of bliss, another 5 of stability, but shit just changed. She changed, I changed and because we didn’t share our inner most thoughts often enough, that love just faded.

Flat out, this love stuff is important, but it doesn’t just magically happen for most. Kids change things, I was the bad motherfucker when we met and I turned into the business dude with money, she was the free spirited hippy chick with dreds and loved weed who turned into the ultimate rule following protective mommy. And after we changed, I realized I wanted passion, and she wanted stability….we both wanted the same things at first, had a shared vision of the future, made that vision happen, but that next step after we built that life is where we differed, and that difference allowed that love to change into pretty much just best friends.

It happens, I’d say she didn’t put in enough effort, she’d say I expected too much, but that’s life.

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And keep your romance game tight, that means ladies blow your man, compliment him, give him a back rub every now and again…..men, help around the house, eat your wife out, take her out for dates you plan and make her feel like the most beautiful woman in the world on a semi-regular basis

I am definitely all for this but I feel like even if you do this, the other party can still lose interest. I def. feel like men are easier to keep happy, since buy and large, unmarried women are happier than married women and married men are happier than unmarried men. I feel like as a man you could and should definitely do those things (help around the house, eat your wife/gf out, take her out & make her feel special) but sometimes girls just lose interest. And that begins by her reducing the amt of sex. She will start giving all these excuses and that's when you know things are going downhill if every time you want to have sex she gives an excuse. At that point, you could definitely try improving yourself, if you're a slob that could be a reason, if you never make her feel special, but by that point it might be too little too late. You should have done that from the start.

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especially given the differential between genders initiating the divorces

That differential says a little bit about gendered expectations re admin/paperwork, but says nothing qualitative about the divorce.

In states that don't allow for joint filing, one spouse has to formally file and serve the other with divorce proceedings. That means a lot of joint divorces are classed as "woman initiated" in stats because women tend to be delegated as secretary and do the actual filing of paperwork.

E.g. my ex and I filed jointly, but I ended up doing all the paperwork. Actual reasons he gave for this: I have more legible handwriting, he doesn't know my SSN, "what does 'notarized' mean?", he's anxious he'll fill it out wrong...

Add to that, some men will pull a Michael Scott and just "declare divorce". They move out/kick her out, go about their lives, and never bother to file the paperwork unless some outside force intervenes (either his ex serves him first - making her the "initiator" of the divorce, or his new girlfriend wants to get married).

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I've long said that I think men are more loyal to their resources than to their families. They don't divorce because why should they? To them, marriage and family are an investment more than a relationship.

this is such ridiculous and logically contradictory statement. you basically said "they dont care about the family BECAUSE they try to keep it together ". are you on drugs or something?

As for dead bedrooms.... people need to understand that monogamy is a two way behavior: no sex with other people and actually having sex with your spouse. If you're a healthy person who is merely choosing to reject your spouse sexually, you're breaking the monogamy promise. This should be seen as seriously as cheating.

So if the women is entitled to the man sexually, that goes both ways. It means fucking on command as often as the man wants, right?

[–]That__ESTPurple Pill Woman 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

this is such ridiculous and logically contradictory statement. you basically said "they dont care about the family BECAUSE they try to keep it together ". are you on drugs or something?

No I'm saying they don't care about their family as much as not decimating their paychecks every month. Start seeing women become breadwinners across the board and you'll see fewer women filing for divorce. Not sure why this is controversial.

So if the women is entitled to the man sexually, that goes both ways. It means fucking on command as often as the man wants, right?

Actually yes. Again. Sex is for marriage and it's frowned upon to outsource that activity. Not sure why this is controversial.

Although I definitely give you a gold medal for assuming that I mean that men should be having sex on women's command since 9/10 it seems like it's a woman causing the dead bedroom.

[–]Shredddz -1 points0 points1 point 4 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

No I'm saying they don't care about their family as much as not decimating their paychecks every month. Start seeing women become breadwinners across the board and you'll see fewer women filing for divorce. Not sure why this is controversial.

because its nonsensical. If men care more about the paycheck, they wouldn’t spend it. If they do, they care. since return on investment for men means happy family, caring for their money in this sense is synonymously with caring about the family. them caring actually proves that the money is just a tool to have that working. men are not getting anything other than the family, so it has to be what he cares about. If not, he wouldn’t pay for it.

Actually yes. Again. Sex is for marriage and it's frowned upon to outsource that activity. Not sure why this is controversial. Although I definitely give you a gold medal for assuming that I mean that men should be having sex on women's command since 9/10 it seems like it's a woman causing the dead bedroom.

again, you are contradicting yourself logically. of course women are causing the dead bed room. why bring up being entitled to sex then as a women when this benefits men most of the time?

[–]That__ESTPurple Pill Woman 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

How many men feel like there was a bait and switch? How many men sign up for a family only to watch things not turn out how they thought it would? And then if they choose to divorce it doesn't matter if they did everything perfectly, they split with their paycheck. I think men can handle a whole lot more imperfection in a relationship than women can. Therefore they choose to keep the highly imperfect relationship and their paycheck. Give men a marriage where they lose nothing upon divorce and youll see a whole lot more men divorcing over the bad behavior of their wives.

again, you are contradicting yourself logically. of course women are causing the dead bed room. why bring up being entitled to sex then as a women when this benefits men most of the time?

I'm not contradicting myself at all. I know that women are more often than not the ones who cause a dead bedroom. And the women in my life know that they have no sympathy from me if their husbands cheat on them or leave them if they're healthy people purposefully rejecting their spouses sexually. I'm shocked that I'm getting attacked from this point because I purposefully kept it gender neutral to avoid the hashtag NotAllWomen. And why bring up sex in marriage when it more often than not effects men negatively? Because imagine this, I care about people of both genders being treated fairly and getting what they signed up for. I'm not going to be on a woman's side when she's not holding up her end of the arrangement and screwing over a man.

I eagerly await your reply 😁

[–]Shredddz 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

I think men can handle a whole lot more imperfection in a relationship than women can. Therefore they choose to keep the highly imperfect relationship and their paycheck.

and how exactly is this not noble and morally superior?

Give men a marriage where they lose nothing upon divorce and youll see a whole lot more men divorcing over the bad behavior of their wives.

Wouldnt change much because they still have payed massive amounts of money and time to make it happen, even if there was no marriage, they would still put up with more because they are responsible and want it to work out.

I'm not contradicting myself at all. I know that women are more often than not the ones who cause a dead bedroom. And the women in my life know that they have no sympathy from me if their husbands cheat on them or leave them if they're healthy people purposefully rejecting their spouses sexually. I'm shocked that I'm getting attacked from this point because I purposefully kept it gender neutral to avoid the hashtag NotAllWomen.

you seem to want to paint men in a bad light, and mentioned entitlement of sex, that implies that you view this as a mans shortcoming, when its typically not. I just dont get why you brought it up against men though.

And why bring up sex in marriage when it more often than not effects men negatively? Because imagine this, I care about people of both genders being treated fairly and getting what they signed up for.

really? because fair and signing up for marriage today and fair doesnt fit in the same sentence. If you were about fairness and it working out, you would have a better grasp about what equates and the disparity in risk in modern marriage.

I'm not going to be on a woman's side when she's not holding up her end of the arrangement and screwing over a man.

than why are you claiming men care about money more than family while they do everything to save and women dont according to your own statement in this comment? by your own words, men care more about their family than the women.

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Let me elaborate on my thought then. Because that statement is only partly true in my mind:

Men on here love to talk about how men are more loyal to their marriages than women are because women file at a larger rate. My thought is that men are more loyal to their money than their marriages. Woman nearly always have less to lose than men when they leave. They leave, often remain the primary parent, and then get paid for the privilege to do so. Sure, most child support is only around $400 a month, but how many women would still be leaving if they were the ones having to pay that amount each month? The day women are having to pay out each month instead of men, or men and women are able to leave a marriage without missing out on much financially (if at all) we will see whether people are more invested in family or their money.

My hypothesis is that if women missed out financially, they wouldn't leave as much. And once men stop missing out financially, marriage will go kaput because men will be leaving in droves at the same rate of women. Men aren't innately more loyal to marriage, wives, or children. They probably think that if they're going to have to pay for it anyway, why kick it to the curb?

[–]Shredddz1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Most of what you say makes sense, however there is a huge logical contradiction. And that is the duality of money and being loyal to the family, which I tried to explain to you in every comment in made.

It doesnt make sense to seperate the money from being loyal, because the man literally only gets the family for his money at most. how can his money be more important? if it was, he wouldn’t pay these massive amount to finance family. so if the man does it, he already cares more about it than the money hes gonna loose, because if he didnt, he wouldn’t want a family, and just keep the money.

dont you see that this is contradictory? If he has a family he wanted, he necessarily puts family above the money, because otherwise he would not want one.

You dont seem to get that men do not have financial incentives like women to have a family. for them its all payment, so the reward literally can only be the family itself, and therefore needs to be valued more to motivate him to spend it.

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[–]343_peaches_and_teaNo PillPill 3 points4 points5 points 4 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

If you're a healthy person who is merely choosing to reject your spouse sexually, you're breaking the monogamy promise. This should be seen as seriously as cheating.

I wouldn't go quite that far. I don't think people should feel they have to have sex with their spouse. There are plenty of reasons why someone might not want to even in a marriage.

But I do think that marriage or a relationship is dependent upon it. "You don't owe me sex. I don't owe you a marriage"

I've long said that I think men are more loyal to their resources than to their families. They don't divorce because why should they? To them, marriage and family are an investment more than a relationship.

I think honestly, there's an element of laziness or unwillingness to change their lives. I think men get quite content with the status quo. Even if things aren't perfect. Men put up with a lot of discomfort before fixing things.

Maybe you're right and men just like the value of "having a household and family" even when he doesn't like his spouse very much.

I don't know. I know I've fallen into the "not breaking up even when I probably should" trap. Largely it was fear of the unknown as well as I guess, lowish self esteem. I was worried about being alone and that loneliness. I don't think women have to worry about that so much.

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What you consider "fine" isn't relivant to people living in these situations. What's "fine" for you may be hell for someone else. Your personal comfort isn't the standard for human relationships.

It is meant to apply to both, and typically men can take way more discomfort and are not as emotionally fragile.

Lol sure. Lesbian relationships are mirror reflections of hetero relationship dynamics.

they still make it evident that women do most of the abuse and cheating

Women are really failing in their numbers of dead husband corpses. They have a significant amount of familicide to perform in order to catch up to men.

no, the number of men and children screwed over by women is infinitely higher than some rate crimes. this is such disengenuous bullshit. Men are not responsible for what some criminals who are not representative of the population do.

women file 80 percent of divorces, and are responsible for being single mothers. technically, all the people today who have mental issues are caused by women breaking off the family. women have done and keep doing infinitely more damage than the 0,000000001 percent of men who kill their wifes or children. Women in general are actually responsible for all issues in the western world

Women are so violent, but they're lacking the bodies statistically to back up your world view.

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Thats idiotic and you don't know what you're talking about.

Women are the first to suggest therapy, men don't wanna go. Women will literally tell men exactly what they want, which Is usually just a date night and help around the house, nd men will literally act clueless.

Also, men cheat more in relationships lol. So men uo around more. And rape? Men rape more.

And at the expense of kids? Married and single men do less child care. Even women who work full time do more in child care. So shut up, you don't care about kids.

And men have kids to neglect them and then wanna show up when they kids are grown with a sob story.

Men abandon their families all the time and refuse to provide their exes with a divorce, even though they've got a new woman and are playing step dad to another man's kids.

[–]Shredddz -1 points0 points1 point 4 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Women are the first to suggest therapy, men don't wanna go.

doesnt mean its the solution to the problem

Women will literally tell men exactly what they want, which Is usually just a date night and help around the house, nd men will literally act clueless.

because its unreasonable

Also, men cheat more in relationships lol. So men uo around more.

how can they cheat more when they have less options and are not hypergamous? women cheat far more, most men dont have the ability to cheat, and any male attention is cheating including social media and male friends

And rape? Men rape more.

That’s irrelevant because its an infinitely small number.

And at the expense of kids? Married and single men do less child care. Even women who work full time do more in child care. So shut up, you don't care about kids.

you seem to forget who is paying for most if not all of it.

And men have kids to neglect them and then wanna show up when they kids are grown with a sob story.

and why would they do that? if that was the case they wouldn’t have them.

Men abandon their families all the time

women file 80 percent of divorces

and refuse to provide their exes with a divorce, even though they've got a new woman and are playing step dad to another man's kids.

because he doesn’t want to pay any more than he already wasted on that women, and she doesn’t deserve getting any. It takes alot for men to abandon what they invested in, and if they do, the woman has to basically be a breathing dragon

[–]heartheartdoki96 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

Therapy is a solution and if your partner suggests therapy it means there are issues that need fixed.

It's not unreasonable to ask for a date night and a clean house. Dumb AF if you think so. Prove women have unreasonable expectations. Like you literally said the expectation of a Date night and helping with cleaning is unreasonable..what kind of slop hole do you live in??

Men cheat more. You asking how is stupid. It's been statically proven, google it. Men cheat more. Like you're just denying reality. Grow up incel.

It's not an infinitely small number of men who rape. At all. So shut up you rape denier.

Whoever is the primary caretaker pays for kids more. So if a woman is the primary caretaker, she's paying more. More custody cases are decided outside of court with men mutually agreeing.

It doesn't matter who files for divorce lol. Lots of women file for divorce after the man abandons them . Again your arguments suck.

You're pathetic If you believe what you believe and that's why you're single and lonely. Women aren't the problem. You are. You make up shit to demonize women and deny blatant reality.

You literalky argued "women ruin things by filing for divorce" and then argued "men who abandon their kids are victims who don't wanna pay more". Most women work full time jobs. Single moms are the most likely to be in poverty. "If a man walks away the woman must have been awful." Boy pipe down.

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The thing I don't like about trying to look into the reasons behind someone initiating divorce is that even if we could trust in the reasons that people admit to have, we are just as able to dismiss them in the same way we dismissed who is the one initiating the divorce.

In the same way we can say "It doesn't matter who initiated the divorce, what matters is why they are initiating it" we could say "It doesn't matter who cheated/showed lack of commitment/brought irreconciliable differences/Had financial issues/had alcohol adiction/substance abuse... what matters is why they are in the situation on the first place"

At the end of the day we can only say one party is the one that decide that they were no longer going to try to make the marriage work, the party that initiated divorce. The other party may have decided that they were no longer going to try to make the marriage work, but we don't get to assume nor say that, we don't have proof that they did. We do have proof that the one initiating divorce did. They initiated the divorce. That is enough.

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Well, I went on a genealogy binge a while back and found my paternal grandparent’s divorce paperwork and great grandparents (it’s amazing what you can dig up when you know a genealogist).

This was before “no fault divorce,” so the reason given was “abandonment.” My great-grandfather walked out on his wife and children (sounds like both my great-grandfather and my great-grandmother were garbage to each other), married a woman a decade younger than his wife and had a kid with her. Despite the reason given being “abandonment,” my great-grandfather didn’t completely walk out on his kids (but he absolutely shelved them to focus on his new daughter). My great-aunt said she and my grandfather had a positive relationship (he was 16 when she was 2).

Then my grandfather walked out on my dad and aunt (he and my grandmother beat my dad and aunt regularly and got into fist fights - like, clearly there was a problem here) when they were little. Many years later he remarried and claimed his step-kids. Reason given on the paperwork for divorcing my grandmother? “Abandonment.” But he did reconnect with my dad eventually, and even let him move in after the Navy and helped my dad get into an apprenticeship as an electrician in my grandfather’s Union. But my dad has a lot of mental health issues and shoes sociopathic/narcissistic traits, so after he didn’t need my grandfather, he moved my mom and sister closer to his mom. (She verbally abused him and coddled him - I only had winter coats and clothes because she covered for him.) I only met my grandfather once because, on the drive back home from visiting us, he and his wife were in an auto accident that left him too disabled to travel much. My dad decided we just wouldn’t see him anymore. Which is sad, because - while my grandfather sounds like he was a terrible and violent person, father and husband in his youth - according to my mom, he loved me and my sister and was always good to us (I’m including myself because my one memory is positive; but he was good to older sister, too).

So, while the divorce reason given was “abandonment,” the reality was more complicated. Especially since physical abuse was an issue - in fact, the fact that they went with abandonment instead of “domestic abuse” on both accounts is odd to me.

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I don't know how much the "no father figure" means no actual father. Presumably it's okay to have your mother but still have regular access to men with good social status who you have positive interactions with?

Also I don't know if all men want to be with their kids. It seems quite hit or miss. I'm in the "don't you dare take the kids away from me" camp. But some other men seem to not worry at all.

You bring up interesting points though. I sometimes look at society and how more women seem to be opting to live alone and wonder if things are changing more away from family units. I could conceive of women living together more now that they have more financial independence and men moving into the role of "lovers" who don't cohabit with the mother(s) of their children.

I don't know if this is good or not. It would further increase the disparity between the haves and have nots among men. "Soft harems" would be the norm.

The thing I like about nuclear families is that they're neat. There's no additional complexity to worry about.

The issues appear to be that they ask a lot of both sides as I guess you're alluding to. Both need to be good lovers, good parents, good housemates.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Well, nuclear families work because it's the easiest way to have both maternal and paternal influence on a kid, and the most seamless way to create a solid unit. Once you split that up...what does it look like? Do the parents still have a romantic involvement, just a non-monogamous one? Usually that doesn't end up too well because we're still human and have jealousy and all that. Do the parents live apart and get the kids equally? That means only one parent has influence at a time, which can lead to all sorts of disparities (dad feeds the kids junk food while mom cooks healthy food; mom lets the kids watch TV all the time while dad takes them to the park and plays with them) as well as the issue of needing to maintain two equal, separate households nearby to allow for 50-50 custody. This also gobbles up time (dropoff/pickup) and resources (now you need two separate living places with at least 2 bedrooms each).

Back when we lived in tribes, there were a bunch of men and women around to share and contribute to childrearing. Now? You're on your own.

It's kind of messy with regard to which guys are fathering which kids, like you said. And who's paying for it all. Like 1 guy will be paying for 30 kids he fathered? But I think it is hard to reconcile long-term romantic passion with parenthood. Some people can. I think TRP gets AF/BB wrong just because women have always chosen providers to father their kids. Look at how many couples in the past had separate beds or bedrooms. Both sets of my great-grandparents did. The idea of romantic passion being a core element of one's marriage is pretty recent, I think, even if some couples in the past got lucky and had it.

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https://www.encyclopedia.com/humanities/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/love-and-marriage

https://thriveglobal.com/stories/the-history-of-marriage-why-marrying-for-love-is-a-newer-idea-than-the-printing-press/amp/

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/love-marriage-history_n_4774740/amp

https://www.livescience.com/37777-history-of-marriage.html

https://medium.com/@stevenmoretti/the-strange-history-of-marrying-for-love-28e48d5b4ae7

https://www.womenshistory.org/articles/history-romance

https://www.ctpublic.org/arts-and-culture/2020-02-14/why-love-and-marriage-didnt-always-go-hand-in-hand

https://theweek.com/articles/475141/how-marriage-changed-over-centuries?amp

https://www.brides.com/history-of-marriage-2300616

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/articles/200505/marriage-history

https://people.howstuffworks.com/marriage-timeline.htm

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Read this again.

“…you’re assuming a position that I have not taken.”

In response to you claiming a position I don’t hold. I have no strong feelings on marriage. If you like it I love it. Just don’t be surprised when ~50% give or take don’t last. Again claiming that they “work” would require us to agree on a definition of “work.”

If airplanes had a 65% landing rate as opposed to crashing would we agree that well yes for the most part airplanes do intact work a majority of the time. Would you then turn around and take a flight to go see your family for the holidays? Because again we agreed you have a 65% chance to survive the trip there. (Might want to drive back home though.)

Again I don’t really bother myself with what makes other people happy. If you like it I love it for you. You assumed that my position is that no one is happy and everyone is miserable, which is dishonest on your part. You have no idea what my position is but you take it upon yourself to make up a narrative for me and to then dismiss me.

Which is your prerogative, I respect it. Let’s just call it what it is. Also in regards to my airplane example I was simply trying to illustrate that agreeing on a definition is important when context matters. Wasn’t trying to claim that airplanes crashing and divorces are the same thing.

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[–]LillthOfBabylon[S] 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]meteorness123 3 points4 points5 points 4 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Vtridolla 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Shredddz 3 points4 points5 points 4 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]Vtridolla 2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]Shredddz -1 points0 points1 point 4 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]Vtridolla -1 points0 points1 point 4 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]Shredddz -2 points-1 points0 points 4 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]Vtridolla 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Shredddz 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Vtridolla 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]confusionofterms12 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]LateralThinker13Red Pill Man 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]ThisBoringLifeLife is a mix of pills 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]LillthOfBabylon[S] 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]LateralThinker13Red Pill Man 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]LillthOfBabylon[S] 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]A_Solo_Tripper_ 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]SabrineYasmine 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]soundslikebliss 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Ambitious-Koala- 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]AutoModerator[M] 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]DivineWakaloon 2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]leothelion634 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]majani 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Silly_researcher35 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]David_The_Lion1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Title	Multiple American Surveys show common factors leading to divorce: Lack Of Commitment, Adultery, and Constant Arguing
Author	LillthOfBabylon
Upvotes	127
Comments	301
Date	April 26, 2022 5:26 PM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/uchumh/multiple_american_surveys_show_common_factors/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/multiple-american-surveys-show-common-factors.1210072 https://theredarchive.com/post/1210072

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