What is supposed to be "fair" about dating?

NockerJoe · 2024-08-28T02:49:08+00:00

People on here philosophize human relationships so much they forget that dating someone is supposed to be fun. Theres meant to be a back and forth that you enjoy. Having to swipe through like 500 accounts to get one woman who barely engages in conversation and expects you to pay is obviously not fun.

The problem is a lot of guys are being done badly because they're dating women who want it Both Ways. You can't have an egalitarian chill relationship where the one guy is putting in all the effort, and IME in a lot of cultures where a man is dropping a band on dinner and drinks right away theres also an understanding that he isn't waiting around for demisexual feelings to suddenly develop before you go further. Theres an expectation that you be either modern or traditional whenever it suits the other person and then never complain or have any negative feelings on it.

Obviously outside of the PPD bubble a lot of women complain equivalently about men having mismatched expectations because they're dating people who want to dispassionately extract value. But PPD really hyperfocuses on men in that situation because a lot of people don't seem to get that personal relationships aren't meant to he like a small business owner ragging on the new guy to try to impress them.

Specs400 · 2024-08-28T14:06:45+00:00

Men go on about all kinds of things regarding fairness in dating. One point that has some merit I think is that on line dating, apps, and social media in general have created a dating market that isn't free so much as it's distorted. Especially among men, these platforms create a deeper divide among successful and unsuccessful users. You're pretty impatient with men's complaints on here, OP, and I think even you've admitted that these dating methods are pretty fucked for some men who are pretty dateable. Men whose charms just don't translate well to a screen, but actually are pretty decent out in the world.

And speaking of out in the world, there's less "out in the world" than there used to be. Some of that is related to all things electronic. We stare at screens a lot, and probably to our individual and collective detriment. There are fewer third places than in the past. People's in person social skills, men's and women's, are a little slack compared to 25 years ago.

So with dating, if estimates are right and something like 40% of relationships start online and that's a tough environment for many men, those men are going to feel squeezed. The thing that doesn't work well for them has expanded while the thing that can work is less available with third spaces dwindling, so much work from home has people venturing out less, and so on. I get why those men are anxious.

And I'm not sure that especially helps women. These changes have put a premium on surface stuff in men that is eye catching but doesn't necessarily translate in person. The guy who is a little prettier on screen isn't actually more attractive in person than the guy she passes over, and maybe less so.

Women's relatively recent economic and social gains are all to the good, and to the extent that those things have shifted the dating market, well that was overdue and I have no patience for men complaining about that. The things that are more style than substance though have shifted the market in ways that seem to disadvantage at least some men and don't seem to help that many women. Those disadvantaged men might rightly feel something like cheated by changes in dating that few people especially like.

annontheseal · 2024-08-27T23:47:05+00:00

I think what a lot of people have issues with is less so that is is unfair, but how it is more rigged or almost like a lottery system. There was a guy I remember on another sub talking about how he asked out 10 women over a few months span and all of them said "no." Some responses were sympathetic, but many where like "bro only 10! There are like 4 billion women in the world! Got get em tiger!"

Now lets do a bit of math. Some studies show 75% (roughly) of women want a man to approach them. Ok, so that means you have a 1/4 chance of asking one that feels like they are being bothered. So this guy asks out 10 women over a few months and get all "no's" from them. So with those odds he basically has so far a 0%, but lets say the 11 woman he asks out says yes, he would have a 9% success rate. And thats not adding in how lucky the guy may have been to not hit on the 1/4 who finds it offensive to be approached. Still that is a SINGLE DIGIT success rate that is super hard/painful for dudes to do.

Now some guys have worse or better odds, but still, the question many men ask is "is the juice worth the squeeze?" I mean if you ask out 4 women and 1 says yes then yeah it would be worth it, but most guys dont get anywhere near that.

Just my two cents from what I have seen.

Bikerbats · 2024-08-28T15:47:45+00:00

C'mon man, this one is simple. One of the reasons I don't post or comment in this sub very much anymore is because I truly don't belong. I was always at the very least moderately successful with women, have a long lasting marriage, children, grandchildren, etc.

Anyone's evaluation of "fairness" is going to be 100% predicated where on the fairness line you fall. The guy who isn't getting any attention from women at all, is of course going to howl at the moon when "fairness" comes up. How could he not? He's the one who rightfully feels screwed by "fairness" when he looks around sees the guys who fell on the other side of that line.

Cunnin_Linguists · 2024-08-28T12:10:46+00:00

Why should men accept forced equality in all other areas, but in dating be forced to accept unfairness?

just_a_place · 2024-08-28T07:43:01+00:00

Who the hell is making these suppositions?

Whoever it is, it sounds like a bunch of incel BS to me. Life is not fair, and is in fact a huge biszotch, and then you die. Whoever is making the argument that getting pussy should somehow be "fair" is honestly a fucking idiot and probably basement-sheltered from the real world.

his_purple_majesty · 2024-08-28T03:12:24+00:00

because there are aspects of life that are absolutely supposed to be fair

According to whom?

Fluid-Astronomer-882 · 2024-08-28T02:58:56+00:00

It's not supposed to be fair, but it's not very nice for other people to rub it in your face. It's one thing that dating just isn't fair, it's another thing when other people purposely MAKE it unfair.

A lot of people complain about how unfair dating is because they've had a negative experience with narcissistic partner. Narcissists just go around causing huge misery for people and they ruin relationships and families, just for their own amusement. And this is how how people learn to hate the opposite gender. This is what people really complain about. Any kind of abuse people face in relationships, they're obviously going to complain. 99% of the time people are not complaining about how unfair dating is just because they can't find a partner.

bifewova234 · 2024-08-28T00:08:22+00:00

Theyre not saying that its supposed to be fair. Theyre saying that its not their fault that they dont get sex because that conclusion is ego protective.

Savings_Builder_8449 · 2024-08-28T15:12:34+00:00

Whats supposed to be fair about job hiring? Women seem to think it should be.

Maybe men feel the same way about dating

a_minty_fart · 2024-08-28T05:37:17+00:00

A common complaint is that dating isn't "fair"

A common blue pill complaint.

RP knows that dating is inherently unfair and the only way to win is to play the game better than your competition.

wtknight · 2024-08-28T17:41:36+00:00

Strict monogamy would be “fair” and average women having sex with high tier attractive men who would never give them a relationship is “not fair”. This is likely why monogamous marriage became an institution in many cultures. Societies where many men check out of being productive members because they don’t have partners probably aren’t very stable and might even be prone to violence.

LaloTwinsDa2nd · 2024-08-29T04:37:53+00:00

Nothing.

Men point to fairness to simply demonstrate women’s hypocrisy because women point to fairness while insisting that “life isn’t fair”

They’re a-ok with life being unfair

They hate it when you pick and choose unfairness.

MaterialOk6309 · 2024-08-28T09:07:41+00:00

I think it comes down to two things

1) Women not behaving as expected in decent manner that feminism imlpied or good-hearted men believed. (It is implied by RP that men are more rational, decent and benevolent; male mindset is better whereas women are solipsists and a burden) 2) Men's biological disadvantage which causes them disposability and men's situation of being success/ provision objects; men aren't valued and loved sincerely and as expected.

I think that many guys want a reasonable, the men candidly loving, capable and willing women to build life together. And the unfairness is, women don't do the same things nor show the sympath and benevolence towards the men when tables are turned or the situation is reversed, that they normally expect from men. RP's situation is a great exanple; RP is gynocentric and states that women are inherently bad creatures, they cannot be changed, you as a man need to accept their nature and use the knowledge to harness it to a degree which is stable and sustanable in traditional norms. So is this the implication. It comes down to society, biological gynocentrism and minds of women.

Women have more privileges and advantages.

kvakerok_v2 · 2024-08-28T09:02:02+00:00

Simple: Fair is when good men match with good women, hoes match with fuckboys, etc.

Current hoe epidemic results in good men matching largely with hoes and desensitized by them, mistaking good women for hoes to their own detriment, eventually turning into fuckboys due to hoe abundance. Hence the passport bro exodus.

eli_ashe · 2024-08-28T22:10:25+00:00

i think OP is using a specific notion of 'fair' that isn't really specified, but that is where the consternation is stemming from.

i think folks believe that relationships ought be 'fair' in the sense of mutually reasonable and loving interactions.

in sex its 69 not 68 and i owe you one.

same is true for amount effort put into a relationship, and for such things as who is initiating things, who is directing the actions in a relationship, who has say over how a relationship ought be, and so on and so forth.

fairness in relationships, love and sex seem like reasonable and normal sorts of things to expect. to not have that basic mutually enacted bit of 'fairness' in a relationship is typically and usually not wrongly a harm that one party is doing to another.

it is a bit odd in that we are also oft talking bout broad social phenomena, and not like, specific relationships, as in 'women don't approach men nearly as much as men approach women, and this creates a general 'unfairness' in the overall system'. such isn't individually an 'abuse' happening, but on a social level it leads to quite atrocious sorts of results.

Ziogatto · 2024-08-28T06:36:11+00:00

Hoe math explains it well enough, there's a ton of videos about it.

This one is the best: https://youtu.be/CN_BDrVjWvU?si=3uIktAQVPX2eRfKo&t=145

Maffioze · 2024-08-28T09:44:21+00:00

And I don't mean this in a "hurr durr life isn't fair" way, because there are aspects of life that are absolutely supposed to be fair, so much so that we've actually made laws to try and ensure fairness. But dating, sex, and relationships are not and should not be "fair."

I don't even disagree, but this is a pretty arbitrary and subjective position to hold. I don't think you would have a good answer to "why" one aspect should be fair and another shouldn't that has nothing to do with your own personal moral values.

Also, one thing I see constantly be glossed over is that these aspects of life are not separate and connected to each other in reality. So wanting one aspect to be fair, but not caring about another aspect being fair is going to create serious challenges to keeping those things you want to be fair actually fair. Dating creates power dynamics that can seep through to other aspects of life, whether you like it or not. For some reason many people can't accept this.

AidsVictim · 2024-08-28T15:19:55+00:00

You can criticize a market as being unfair without also thinking sexual slavery is good. In fact it's fairly normal for people to complain about the outcomes and state of the dating market for a variety of reasons.

ArtifactFan65 · 2024-08-28T08:17:47+00:00

This makes no sense. No life isn't fair. You aren't entitled to a girlfriend. You also aren't entitled to food shelter or water.

You should be grateful you receive any of these things because you aren't entitled to any of them. Saying some parts of life are supposed to be fair and others aren't is just magical thinking.

DelDivision · 2024-08-28T16:02:08+00:00

Idc if dating is fair or not, but that people lie and say it is. Everyone struggling is a bad person and deserves it. No more trying to spare feelings, by saying stupid platitudes like there's someone for everyone when that is not true

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0kayz00mer · 2024-08-28T18:25:21+00:00

There was a study that found men were just as selective as women… when women did the approaching.

I think a lot of problems with modern dating come from self-fulfilling asymmetry. Men enter a dating world where attention is scarce, so they constantly seek it. Women enter a dating world where attention is plentiful, so they desire it and seek deeper connection. Men have low initial selectivity because attention is rare and scarce. Women have insane initial selectivity because attention is plentiful.

Everything would get better if we equalized the point of equilibrium. However, women have most of the power there. It’s hard for those who get less attention to stop seeking it and risk getting even less attention. It’s easier for those who get a lot of attention to change up who they select and filter. Women have the most power to change and improve dating.

However, women refuse to acknowledge their privilege in dating and impose their own perspective while demonizing men. Everything is always men’s fault. The idea that a woman could possibly have unrealistic standards is blasphemy and if she can’t find anyone it’s because all men that aren’t good enough.

Dertross · 2024-08-28T22:11:59+00:00

But dating, sex, and relationships are not and should not be "fair."

Why not?

Asking someone to give you their mind, body, and soul is incredibly intimate and vulnerable and they absolutely have the right to refuse for any reason.

There are plenty of conventions, mores, and laws that are concerned with what people do that don't affect anyone else or only take place between consenting parties. Personal autonomy is not enough of a justification.

justsomelizard30 · 2024-08-28T18:35:57+00:00

This complaint is not gendered at all lmao.

Title	What is supposed to be "fair" about dating?
Author	Solondthewookiee
Upvotes	20
Comments	263
Date	August 27, 2024 3:39 PM UTC (1 year ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1f2k6nk/what_is_supposed_to_be_fair_about_dating/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/what-is-supposed-to-be-fair-about-dating.1528598 https://theredarchive.com/post/1528598

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