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[–]DubsPackage144 points145 points146 points 4 years ago (35 children) | Copy Link
In a roundabout way, what this graphic is saying is that the govt and court system considers men to be "the responsible party" in all cases, and considers women to be proto-children who have to be subsidized and taken care of every step of the way.
[–]MentleGentlemen098Purple Pillar Man34 points35 points36 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
That's correct, at least for USA. The law was written based on that line of thought
[–]YveisGrey0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Whatever that's many countries. In the strict Muslim countries women are still being treated as children.
[–]jackandjill22Red Pill misanthropic, contrarian0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
"The law is written around women's integrity & mans property all else is convention."
[–]ChadThundagaCockBorderline Personality Wrangler8 points9 points10 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Yeah. Get on that feministz
[–]jackandjill22Red Pill misanthropic, contrarian3 points4 points5 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Yep.
[+]Willow-girlProud 2 B an American farmer-20 points-19 points-18 points 4 years ago (26 children) | Copy Link
Actually, I'd say it assumes the woman will be "the responsible party" as she's the one who is generally saddled with the kid. No?
[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ8 points9 points10 points 4 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link
Well yeah, what's missing on this chart is that if the bio father wants the baby, and the woman wants to abort, she'll abort, he can't choose parenthood either.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link
He can find another woman who wants to be a parent. There's nothing to be gained from forcing someone to be a parent if they don't actually want to be one. They will do a terrible job at it and always in the back of their minds hold contempt for the child.
This applies to men or women.
[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ7 points8 points9 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
I don't really care about what's good or not in this discussion, it's an inequality.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
How? It's more just wanting different things in life if you want a kid and she doesn't. She is able to abort, you're able to find a woman who actually wants kids.
The inequality is that LPS doesn't exist in law when it should.
[–]jackandjill22Red Pill misanthropic, contrarian1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Correct answer.
[–]Jaktenba3 points4 points5 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
No one is forcing her to be a parent, outside of the most broad sense of the term. No one is going to force her to stick around, and even if the court decides she should provide child support, they won't actually force her to nor punish her for not obeying the law. And that's not even getting into the fact that it's considered okay to force a man to be a parent even if the child us conceived through rape (even when the male was underage and the female was an adult), deceit (lying about fertility or birth control), or theft (taking a used condom and inseminating herself). Or even when the male isn't the biological parent.
[–]SerpentCypher3 points4 points5 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
There's nothing to be gained from forcing someone to be a parent if they don't actually want to be one.
There's a fair amount of money in it, if you're a woman.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Not profit though. Kids cost on average over $200k each to raise to 18. No thanks.
[–]shinypants1172 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
You are exactly correct the only problem here is she has that choice while he does not
[–]Axehead88-1 points0 points1 point 4 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
You make the choice to be a parent when you choose to fuck. If you can't be responsible, keep it in your pants.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Then apply the same to women and ban abortions. After all you want equality don't ya?
[–]Axehead880 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Glad to ban abortions.
At least you're consistent.
[–]Willow-girlProud 2 B an American farmer-3 points-2 points-1 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
When he can carry the embryo within his own body or have it transferred to a surrogate, I think this problem probably will be solved.
[–]HIJKelemenoP18 points19 points20 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Nah.
[–]DubsPackage22 points23 points24 points 4 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
They could saddle the man with the baby and make the woman pay him CS, except she won't pay and no court in the country wants to haul women to prison for not paying their child support. I think society reasonably assumes 2 things :
I notice they're trying to change that and make it more egalitarian, but it's not working and regressing so they keep bending over backwards trying to bullwhip women into being whatever "alpha female" they want them to be, just like they're trying to force men to take a backseat and do more housework.
That being said, I don't consider a woman taking care of her child to be an "adult responsibility" on the same level as holding down a mortgage or dealing with money issues, I think taking care of a child for a woman is organic and natural, kind of like a child taking care of another child, she doesn't have to worry about money or landlords, just cradle her dolly and feed it, I don't think it requires an adult mentality or is "dog eat dog" like being in the job market.
In that sense I think women are, have been, and always were somewhat insulated from the harsh realities of the world where all they have to do is sit on the sofa and play with the baby.
Being a man on the other hand, is quite brutal, we don't have "affirmative action" to give us jobs and promotions, and alot of people (including the govt) are relying on you to bring in that paycheck, they don't give a fuck about excuses.
In that sense I think men have all the responsibilities, while women do what women do (ie have babies and feed them.) I mean that's their biological function, it's what their bodies are made for.
I realize this is a very male-centric view, but even looking at it very objectively, my understanding bears this out.
In before, "but taking care of children is work too!"
we don't have "affirmative action" to give us jobs and promotions
Affirmative action applies to more than just gender though. There's affirmative action based on race for example. Also for people with disabilities. And so on.
Therefore men can take advantage of it if they fit other groups.
To be clear I'm not defending the concept, I think meritocracy is best, but hey if it exists you might as well benefit from it if you can.
[–]Willow-girlProud 2 B an American farmer-3 points-2 points-1 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
I think taking care of a child for a woman is organic and natural,
Oh jeezus you have got to be kidding! In my admittedly limited experience, it's hell. You have this small being who is intent on hurting itself -- sticking knives into light sockets, dashing off into traffic -- and you have to be constantly vigilant to ensure its well-being. To top it off, your charge is incapable of intelligent conversation, so you'll be subjected to hearing it sing all of the songs from Disney movies, or recount the plot of said movies, or whine and beg for something its wants until you're ready to slap the shit out of it. And don't even get me started on the pooping and vomiting ...
I loathe children and tip my hat to anyone who manages to raise one without strangling the damned thing.
[–]SerpentCypher2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Sounds like dealing with grown women.
[–]Willow-girlProud 2 B an American farmer0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Sounds like you have poor taste in women.
[–]jayval90PUAs are Blue Pilled1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Did you read the graphic? She passed up on keeping her legs together, contraception, abortion, save haven, adoption. Plus she gets child support.
[–]Willow-girlProud 2 B an American farmer-1 points0 points1 point 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
It's still his baby too. Congrats, Dad!
[–]jayval90PUAs are Blue Pilled0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Not if you go by the custody laws. It's very much only her baby. He's just an accessory.
[–]we-are-men-with-ven-1 points0 points1 point 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Yes.
I am currently going through this at the moment with my ex
[–]Willow-girlProud 2 B an American farmer0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Keep your chin up!
[–]we-are-men-with-ven-1 points0 points1 point 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I always do :)
[–]EminemLovesGrapes 1 points 4 years ago [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link
Men just need to do what is expected of them. You want a reward for being a responsible father caretaker for someone else's child.
[–]shinypants1171 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
So i take it your pro life
[–]FreevoulousPurple Pill Man36 points37 points38 points 4 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
If: born a man, then:
[–]letter_of_resignatio14 points15 points16 points 4 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
Remeber that story's how some one in military and deployed in middle east was hit by court for paternity from females who he didn't know becouse she claimed him to be father. Apparently that wasn't only case like that.
[–]FreevoulousPurple Pill Man13 points14 points15 points 4 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
AFAIK, proof of vasectomy is in incontestable evidence against paternity, in all places except France.
[–]letter_of_resignatio8 points9 points10 points 4 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
I did not know that. What's up whit France?
[–]FreevoulousPurple Pill Man18 points19 points20 points 4 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
TLDR is that they made it so that actual biological paternity is irrelevant in all cases where the "good of the child" is on the line.
[–]letter_of_resignatio7 points8 points9 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Thats stupid.
[–]FreevoulousPurple Pill Man7 points8 points9 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Yes. Another proof of the civilization in decline.
[–]Grundleberries4 points5 points6 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Or more accurately, what's good for the state (not paying child support).
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[–][deleted] 41 points42 points43 points 4 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
It is very wrong that men have very few choices/rights when it comes to their children.
[–]bonobo-no1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
This is because of the men in power though. Men spend so much time tripping each other up in efforts to be more “dominant” and “masculine.” Feminism isn’t to blame for the current state of males, patriarchy is.
[–]MuleFool427 points8 points9 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
LOL. Feminism is very much to blame for most of the hyper-punitive enforcement of laws against men.
The feminist movement, NOW, and the women's law center fight ALL laws to do with men having freedom. They fight mandatory paternity at birth, they fight 50/50 custody negotiation, they changed the definition of rape so that only males can be perpetrators of rape, they've fought to have DV laws changed so only males are hauled of to jail during arrest, and so on. They will continue to fight against males having expanded reproductive rights. They fight laws that would allow a non-biological father to use that as a defense for not paying child support.
Where does this idea come from that the feminist movement is this benevolent, altruistic organization that believes in equality? They only believe in equality for women, not men, and they haven't been shy about that. They absolutely could care less about equality for men, unless it benefits them in some way, like trying to get more men to be SAHDs, like that's somehow a boon for men. LOL. Those men just get divorced.
[–]bonobo-no-1 points0 points1 point 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
That sounds like a misandrist group. Just like how some men’s rights groups become misogynistic, some feminism groups and circles are bound to become misandrist. That doesn’t mean the movement of feminism is based on and fights for equality of sexes. Not female supremacy. Feminists are our allies.
[–]MuleFool420 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
It's those institutions that make up the platform and ideology of feminism, so no, the movement encompasses those efforts. It is misandrist, and it is feminism. Those have been inextricably tied for 50 decades or more.
[–]jackandjill22Red Pill misanthropic, contrarian2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Are you Fucking serious. How deluded do you have to be to make a statement like this?
[–]j_arbuckle20122 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
...She's a feminist. You do the math.
[–]YveisGrey1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
No men just want "free sex" (aka sex outside confines of marriage). In a society that gives men more power in the family women are very much controlled sexually and not as sexually available unless they are literally prostitutes. Think conservative Muslim countries or other religious communities they force women to be modest and control almost all sexual contract some even legally punishing couples for premarital sex. The power men want is in direct conflict with the "freedom" of sexual revolution. Men wanted society like this, by making sex free from marriage women are the only ones who can really have any power in the family since the father's role in the family is directly tied to marriage.
[–]welcometothejlRed Pill Man14 points15 points16 points 4 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link
On top of this bring up the fact that men who have joint custody shouldn't have to pay child support and people really start to freak out.
[–]nemma8831/F/UK INFP -t. Engaged5 points6 points7 points 4 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link
Oh? In the UK joint custody is a % based maintenance cost, so if you have 50% custody, there is no child maintenance.
[–]tighttritenight6 points7 points8 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
In the US (in North Carolina at least), child support is based on the number of overnights the child has with the parent plus the difference in income between the man and the woman. I have joint custody of my daughter, but I still pay my ex-wife child support because I make more money than she does.
[–]welcometothejlRed Pill Man2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Americans really start to freak out.
[–]reluctantly_red1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
Works that way in the USA too. If mom and dad split physical custody 50/50 and they make the same amount of money the support order will be zero.
[–]Fiasko212 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
You say that, and it’s supposed to be that way.
But in reality, sometimes the man still gets stuck with a huge monthly bill even after 50/50 and both making the same money.
[–]reluctantly_red3 points4 points5 points 4 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
Never seen that happen.
[–]Fiasko215 points6 points7 points 4 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
I work in private banking and seen this happen to many of my clients.
Heck it’s currently happening to one of my closest friends. He’s a chef making $77k; she’s a realtor averaging over $80k.. 50/50 custody, he still has to pay her.
[–]reluctantly_red1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Bet her official net income is way less than 80K.
[–]Fiasko211 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
She literally makes more money yearly than he does.
Reported income. She’s not a waitress making cash tips.
[–]reluctantly_red1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Realtors are independent contractors. Their reported gross income can be far higher than their net income.
[–]Fiasko211 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Yes I’m well aware she has to pay taxes off those 80+k; the same way he gets taxes taken off the 77k.
She makes more than him; there’s zero excuse why he has to pay her $800/month.
Thankfully that’s about to end and she’s gonna get $0.
[–]Willow-girlProud 2 B an American farmer65 points66 points67 points 4 years ago (112 children) | Copy Link
Given all of the above, you'd think that men would be very reluctant to bust a nut in a fertile woman (especially bareback, and especially one they barely know). And yet ... hmm.
[–]maplehobo23 points24 points25 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I'd say most men don't even give a thought to all this until it's too late
[–]Willow-girlProud 2 B an American farmer12 points13 points14 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I started having sex long before AIDS, when most people didn't bother with condoms, and I can't tell you how many times a guy asked whether I was on birth control after having sex with me!
[–]tritter211Pragmatic73 points74 points75 points 4 years ago (76 children) | Copy Link
ah yes, the classic, "abstinence only for thee, but not for meee"
[–]Willow-girlProud 2 B an American farmer5 points6 points7 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
There are a lot of things you can do short of abstinence that do not involve sticking the baby batter in the oven.
[–]mazeforgays39 points40 points41 points 4 years ago (72 children) | Copy Link
She's not calling for abstinence, she's talking about the fact that many retards will whine if a woman insist on using a condom, EVEN IF IT'S A ONE NIGHT STAND. Like y'all know this is a possible consequence of having unprotected sex and the power is all in the woman's hand when it comes to deciding what happens to the fetus (as it should be), yet many guys will only care about "unga bunga bareback pusseyh". Like okay bro, you do you, but then don't complain when a baby crazy basic ass bitch comes hounding you down to pay support for the disgusting cum dumpling you helped create. 🤷🏻♀️
[–]officerkondoRedder Shade of Purple Man8 points9 points10 points 4 years ago (36 children) | Copy Link
If she can abort it, I can abandon it.
[–]mazeforgays14 points15 points16 points 4 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
I actually agree, I hate kids and wouldn't stick around if I were a man and this happened to me. That's not the point of my post. The point is that you can drastically lower the likelihood of this situation even arising by carrying your own condoms and not insisting on bareback sex like a fucking caveman.
Just like "don't rape" won't stop rapists, "don't baby trap" won't stop crazy women. In other words, you're asking for it if you refuse using condoms. 🤷🏻♀️
[–]officerkondoRedder Shade of Purple Man3 points4 points5 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I quite agree with you that not getting knocked up and not knocking someone up are pretty easy to do in 2019. I happen to have a vasectomy but still used condoms for hookups.
[–]Ohmylordyjesus0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link
I agree but also are women asking to get raped by choosing to drink around horny men & wearing a mini skirt and a revealing shirt?
Men have to be held accountable for their safety but not women?
[–]mazeforgays7 points8 points9 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I know this is something many of you believe, so I made that argument using your own rhetoric. I see the irony was lost on you 🤦🏻♀️
[–]YveisGrey1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
That's not comparable. Rape is a form of assault while a woman getting pregnant from sex is merely cause and effect. That anyone would even think these two things are comparable just shows how little respect you have for women. A woman could be butt naked and man could choose not to rape her but neither a man nor a woman can choose whether an act of sex causes a pregnancy especially if no form of contraception is used, that's a matter of the woman's cycle and the man's sperm. I can't even believe you wrote this in all seriousness.
[–]machimusMahogany Pill8 points9 points10 points 4 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
Well, to be fair, abortion is a huge invasive medical procedure and abandoning a kid would only require you to do nothing...sooooo...
[–]MrHerbSherman🤠 howdy1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
I mean she could also abandon it if she’d rather go through with a birth
[–]lilaccomma1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Birth is the 12th worst pain a human can go through. It’s rated above being attacked by a bear.
https://www.therichest.com/rich-list/15-of-the-worst-pain-humans-can-feel/
[–]MrHerbSherman🤠 howdy0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Unsubscribe
[–]ResponsibleCharacter-1 points0 points1 point 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Nope. Not only is that anti-evolutionary but it's social suicide. An adult woman who is pregnant, that pregnancy is known to her family and friends, and she will keep the baby except in extreme cases. Get a vasectomy.
[–]officerkondoRedder Shade of Purple Man-4 points-3 points-2 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
So....what? Did you want me to make your argument for you? Is that why you trailed off mid-sentence?
[–]machimusMahogany Pill2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Here's a pencil, draw yourself a conclusion.
[–]officerkondoRedder Shade of Purple Man2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
You can use a pencil to perform an abortion if it's long enough.
[–]Jathrowaway972 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
If you’re in the US id advise you to do it the legal way otherwise you’ll get yourself in more of a mess.
[–]uniqueeleniNo Pill8 points9 points10 points 4 years ago (21 children) | Copy Link
The thing is, you can’t. And that’s because nobody cares about your sorry ass. It’s definitely against human rights to force someone to abort a baby but if she decides to have it, all the law cares about is the wellbeing of the baby.
[–]XtoDoubtMen Do It Too6 points7 points8 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
The law doesn't give a flying fuck about the wellbeing of the baby. Child support is not monitored in any way, shape, or form. The law cares about women not being on welfare.
[–]officerkondoRedder Shade of Purple Man0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (19 children) | Copy Link
The thing is, you can’t.
Of course I can. Just ask tens of millions of single mothers.
It’s definitely against human rights
There is no such thing as human rights, so you might as well tell me that something is against the word of God or the will of Santa Claus.
[–]Jathrowaway97-1 points0 points1 point 4 years ago (18 children) | Copy Link
There are and they’re protected by law in every developed country and most developing countries. It’s why you go to jail or get punished for subjecting people to inhumane behavior. Where the line of what’s considered inhumane is drawn is fairly culturally dependent.
[–]officerkondoRedder Shade of Purple Man2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link
There are
No, there aren't. What you call a "human right" is merely your preference for how you would like people to behave.
It’s why you go to jail or get punished for subjecting people to inhumane behavior.
I'm an inhumane asshole but I've never seen the inside of a cell.
[–]YveisGrey0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Oh shut up you live in a society with laws and values as a society without such does not exist anywhere. So a mere red herring to claim there are no human rights. As if you can realistically thrive anywhere without adhering to some moral system.
[–]officerkondoRedder Shade of Purple Man0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Kindly swallow a bag of cocks. Rights do not exist.
[–]Jathrowaway97-1 points0 points1 point 4 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link
Probably because you’ve never been caught.
[–]officerkondoRedder Shade of Purple Man2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link
Caught doing what? Being an asshole is legal in my country. Maybe you live in the Republic of Romper Room.
[–]tritter211Pragmatic3 points4 points5 points 4 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link
as it should be
Which is the point of contention, isn't it? If she decides what happens to her feutus, then the guy shouldn't have to pay for her choice. My body, my choice, my wallet.
[–]uniqueeleniNo Pill12 points13 points14 points 4 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
The thing is, you know beforehand that if she gets pregnant she is the one who gets to decides what happens with the fetus (and it’s only fair; it would be against human rights to force someone to have an abortion). So, in that case, just use protection even if she says she is on the pill and ideally don’t fuck women that you don’t trust.
Plus, there are cases that the guy is like “yeah if you have a baby I will support you, now let me fuck you bareback” and then chickens out. In this case shouldn’t the woman be entitled to child support because she was essentially tricked? But how could she prove that to court? She couldn’t.
Also, the baby is an innocent creature, it doesn’t matter that the father didn’t want it, the court decides what’s best for the baby. If the father didn’t want a baby, he should be more careful. Honestly, I think that RP men are very naive and think as man children when arguing about this.
[–]XtoDoubtMen Do It Too5 points6 points7 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
If it's wrong, it's wrong. Yes, every RP man will yell at you for not wrapping it up but it doesn't magically make the system right.
[–]uniqueeleniNo Pill1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Unfair because you are looking at it mostly from the perspective of the man. The man is not the important person in the situation. Read my comment again.
[–]XtoDoubtMen Do It Too1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Handing unaccountable money to single moms isn't in the best interest of the child. It's in the best interest of the state so the mom stays off welfare.
I agree with everything you said. In none of these discussion are the needs of the child a factor. These men want to be able to sleep around make babies and then idk leave them to die of starvation?
[–]mazeforgays13 points14 points15 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
That is the ideal situation, I don't think infant trapping is fair. However, the situation is different in the real world. You can avoid this situation all together by carrying your own condoms and not fucking anyone bareback, even if she says she's on birth control.
[–]diladusta3 points4 points5 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
If laws are unfair why shouldn't we complain? It ain't gonna change by doing nothing
The only unfairness in the law is that we allow children to be aborted electively. But that wouldn't absolve men from paying child support.
Men are not forced to pay for an abortion. And a man who pays child support is also not paying for a woman's choice but his choice to have sex which is what caused the pregnancy. A woman cannot otherwise have a man's baby. All of this talk completely ignores the fact that an innocent and helpless child is caught between the trash decisions of their parents.
[–]Jathrowaway971 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
You chose to buss a raw nut. All parties will now have to face the consequences whether that be going through an invasive expensive(potentially traumatizing) procedure to remove the fetus or carrying the child to term and incurring costs as a result.
I agree 100%. Problem in our society is nobody wants to be sexually responsible. Women complain about men and men complain about women but we have the power to control our sex life so I don't even know what all the complaints are about.
[–]BigFatMoggyEejit0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
I just don’t believe that the majority of men are trying to fuck a random girl bareback. It sucks that those people exists but there’s plenty of girls that insist on bareback too, it shouldn’t affect their entire gender’s rights relating to reproduction either.
[–]Jathrowaway974 points5 points6 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
You’d be surprised when you remind them they try to say they were so into it they “forgot” or argue with you that it doesn’t feel as good blah blah.
[–]YveisGrey0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Well yea but the majority of men don't find themselves in the predicament of being sued for child support. Of the men that are in this predicament they need to take responsibility for their part in creating a dependent child.
[–]BigFatMoggyEejit1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Agreed, but the guy above was specifically taking issue with the “well keep it in your pants if you don’t want that risk” argument which comes off as a double standard since the same people saying that would probably balk at someone saying something similar regarding women and abortions.
Sure some women might be careless and depend too much on abortions, and some men are careless and got a girl pregnant through their own fault, but essentially slut shaming either men or women based on that minority is stupid.
At the same time, I do think men should be on the hook to support their unwanted children. At least until there’s a much more convenient alternative to abortion, in which case I’d support the ability for men to sign away all parental rights including financial obligations.
You know women can and do get pregnant on BC. It's pure entitlement that leads a man to believe that he can have sex with a woman and not get her pregnant. Sorry but that whole scenario is against biology. He expects the woman to pump her system with drugs so he can hit it bareback and quit it, then reality sets in. Sorry that society doesn't easily allow you to use women as masturbation devices. IMO unless you are in a serious relationship where having a kid wouldn't be the end of the world you shouldn't be having sex without a condom (something that you are in full control of rather than relying on the woman), ideally you wouldn't have sex at all since most common forms of contraception have failure rates. The men complaining about this don't want to face or accept reality. Your sperm + her egg = baby, I know sex feels good but that can't be an excuse to for leaving rational thought at the door. Use your common sense and learn self control/discipline.
[–]SILENTSAM69-4 points-3 points-2 points 4 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link
That is an ignorant generalization. There are also women who do not want men to use condoms, or promise they are on the pill,or who will tamper with condoms.
[–]mazeforgays6 points7 points8 points 4 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link
Pro tip: if a woman you don't know well doesn't want you to use a condom, she's trying to babytrap you. Don't be an idiot.
[–]SkylineCrash0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
ah yes so victim blaming
[–]SILENTSAM69-3 points-2 points-1 points 4 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link
Sure, but that really makes no difference here. It's about the rights of those involved. Men have no reproductive rights.
[–]mazeforgays5 points6 points7 points 4 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link
The only reproductive right that men need is the option to walk out on a woman who wishes to birth a child he doesn't want. In which case she'll become dependent on some kind of a welfare program. And the dudes who whined about having to pay child support will whine about "supporting welfare queens with their taxes". There's no winning here, it's better to discard y'all's whining altogether.
[–]YveisGrey2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Exactly what is it these men want? To have sex with no concern of the consequences. Tough. Life doesn't work that way get over yourselves already.
[–]maplehobo 1 points 4 years ago [recovered] (8 children) | Copy Link
Or just don't give welfare and let nature sort itself out
[–]YveisGrey0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
so let children die? That's the option you declare is "right"?
[–]maplehobo 1 points 4 years ago* [recovered] (6 children) | Copy Link
I don't believe in right or wrong, either something works or it doesn't. The apt survive, the rest fall behind. Worked out so far.
[–]SILENTSAM69-3 points-2 points-1 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
There is equality. We could try that. It isn't always about winning.
[–]YveisGrey-1 points0 points1 point 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Choosing to have sex and consequently having to provide support for the child caused from your choice is not a violation of any rights. The only time reproductive rights could be relevant is in cases of rape, where an act of assault could potentially cause someone to conceive a child they are in no position to care for.
[–]SILENTSAM690 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
So women can only have an abortion if they are raped is what you are saying. That is a very backward way of looking at the issue.
If a woman decided to get an abortion in the first trimester there is no reason anyone else should tell her she can not.
The actual issue is that men have no choice after conception. The woman decided for him. The woman has authority over the man's bodily autonomy. This is wrong. The man should have a shorter grace period than the woman to make his own decision. Say one or two months.
[–]rhyth71 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Men's 'orgasms for mee, not for thee'. Risk their whole life for a nut. Men should vet who they bang.
[–]MirrorThaoss12 points13 points14 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Said in a country where abortion is illegal : "Given all the bad consequences of a pregnancies and illegal abortion, you'd think that women would be very relunctant to have unprotected sex. And yet... hmmm."
I'll make you another one "Given all the risks of rape and assault, you'd think that women would avoid getting drunk in night clubs and meet strangers they just met on tinder. And yet ... hmm."
Anyway, just saying "Oh it's unfair ? Just avoid it DUH !" is stupid
[–]Willow-girlProud 2 B an American farmer8 points9 points10 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I think we can conclude that people generally don't behave rationally where sex is concerned.
[–]shinypants1175 points6 points7 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Sex is literally the most irrational thing that humans ever do
[–]LeanLoner13 points14 points15 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
It's almost as if urges are a thing and we can use them in predatory ways to exploit individuals.
[–]Willow-girlProud 2 B an American farmer6 points7 points8 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
No shit, lol. Although I'd venture that the percentage of women deliberately "exploiting" casual sex partners is probably pretty low vs. the ones who are simply equally drunk and horny.
[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ5 points6 points7 points 4 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
Give how "pregnancy is a risk" and how women are reluctant to have sex because of it, we shouldn't even consider making abortion legal, since it's useless, right? hmmm...
[–]Willow-girlProud 2 B an American farmer5 points6 points7 points 4 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Actually history suggests that most women had less casual sex before things like abortion and even reliable birth control became a thing. For instance, one study found that only 12% of women born before 1910 admitted to having had premarital sex. (That number is still high enough to drive a demand for abortions, sadly.)
[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Seems like you agree with me that your point is bad.
[–]Willow-girlProud 2 B an American farmer3 points4 points5 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
My point was that men don't behave rationally where sex is concerned.
[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
And tell me, what's the point of saying this in this discussion?
[–]Willow-girlProud 2 B an American farmer3 points4 points5 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
A simple musing on the way so many are led like lambs to slaughter.
[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Condom usage is up at least in Millennials and Gen Z so I dunno what you are getting at. Most men, at least young men, have nothing against using a condom.
[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points 4 years ago* (13 children) | Copy Link
deleted What is this?
[–]mazeforgays4 points5 points6 points 4 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link
Nice false equivalency. Having spare condoms in your wallet can save your ass from getting infant trapped no matter who you fuck.
Unfortunately, there is still no way to tell if the guy you met at the bar and were hoping to use as a living dildo for the night, is a sadistic rapist who cuts your throat in the back alley and sodomizes your corpse.
[–]Ohmylordyjesus3 points4 points5 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
How about stop riding the cock carousel and mate with a person you get to know first. If you get accidentally pregnant, you and your child won’t be in a bad spot.
Take responsibility. If you hoe around, you might win stupid prizes.
[–]mazeforgays4 points5 points6 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Lmao that's pretty hypocritical coming from the sub where like 50% of the discussion revolves around getting laid with as many people as possible. As for me, I mind my contraception (if in a relationship) and condoms (if single and fucking around). Also abortion is legal and affordable where I live, so this is not even an issue for me personally. I'll ride the cock carousel as much as I please and there's not a single thing you can do about it. 🤷🏻♀️
[–]Ohmylordyjesus2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Ride it until the carnival closes for all I care. Just don’t cry about it like you’re a “victim” who’s scared about getting “your throat cut by a serial killer in an alley” for sleeping w/ randoms every night.
Live that hoe life all u want but don’t cry when you win your stupid prize.
I’m a guy and I don’t have sex with a girl until I get to know her to make sure I lower my chances of accidentally impregnating a crazy bitch.
[–]shinypants117-2 points-1 points0 points 4 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Nice to hear your pro life
Like why do you need abortion when a morning after pill in your purse can prevent you from getting infant trapped
All these pro choice women need to just own up and take some responsibility for their decisions if they didnt want to be pregnant they should've used protection
And as for pregnancies resulting from rapes well we really need to think about whats best for the child here so we should force her to right a check to her rapist every month just like men do
And before i get downvoted to oblivion obligatory /s
[–]mazeforgays-1 points0 points1 point 4 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
...what are you even trying to say?
[–]shinypants1172 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Your blameing men for being infant Trapped because they didnt used protection saying if the don't use a condom its their own fault
But protection for women also exist so shouldn't it just be her fault if she doesn't use it and gets pregnant thus abortion shouldn't be a thing
Why does the man have to take responsibility for his decision to not use protection but the woman does not
I am pro choice by the way but im pro choice for both genders
[–]mazeforgays1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Ohh, so now we don't like it? Weird, I thought this sub was all about "if u wear cleavage u askin 4 rape!!1!". Who would've thought that reversing that "logic" would make y'all this butthurt?
But protection for women also exist so shouldn't it just be her fault if she doesn't use it and gets pregnant thus abortion shouldn't be a thingp
This is difficult to decipher, but I'll try. Yeah, protection for women exists. It has always been woman's responsibility, so no need to act like someone is suddenly forcing all the poor dudes into this super hard task of being mindful of the fact, that sex can sometimes (unfortunately) create new people. Birth control is never 100%, that's why there's abortion for those who got pregnant accidentally.
That's not the point. The point is that the woman who WANTS to infant trap you is likely NOT on birth control and will try to get pregnant ON PURPOSE. She won't get an abortion because this is her goal - she wants a kid and someone to pay for it. But you have no way of knowing this until it's too late. Therefore, if you want to avoid this situation, carry your own condoms and use them. It's not like anyone's asking you to get a vasectomy (even though that would be the best scenario). It's literally having 2-3 condoms in your wallet. If you can't be arsed to do that, you deserve every single infant trap that's coming to you.
[–]YveisGrey-1 points0 points1 point 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Yea see the only thing unfair about the law is that elective abortions are legal but that doesn't absolve a man from his responsibility to his child.
[–]Willow-girlProud 2 B an American farmer-2 points-1 points0 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Blame biology! When men can get pregnant, all of your problems will be solved. I'll bet you'll be lining up for that, won't you?
[–]ZodiacBrave98Open Hypergamy Triggers Me4 points5 points6 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
If we are playing the biology card, there's no mechanism that siphons a man's time and money in nature. That's all law.
[–]jackandjill22Red Pill misanthropic, contrarian2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Lolololololo nature has nothing to do with the law. Laws need to be changed.
The two cannot be compared. Pregnancy is a direct effect of the sex act while rape is an act that person chooses to do. We cannot absolve the choice a man makes when he chooses to rape someone no matter how careless you feel the victim was being. At the end of the day all types of women are raped heck even children get raped thus the onus must be 100% on the rapist. The fact that any person can do somethings to mitigate their risk of becoming a crime victim does not absolve the criminal of their crimes. On the other hand getting pregnant from sex and choosing not to kill your unborn child is NOT a crime in any way shape or form. If a man doesn't want a child he should abstain from sex or get a vasectomy. And if anything equal amount of men "trap" women with babies, they want women to get pregnant by them so they will feel less reluctant to leave a relationship this is an issue that can effect men and women but each must be responsible for their sexual choices regardless.
Logically sure, but most people actually go by their instincts. None of that matters though since men have no reproductive rights, only women have those rights.
[–]Iron-Giant1690 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
But condoms suck :(
[–]cast-away-ramadi060 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Honestly, not if you're using the right ones. Took me years to find the ones I like (trojan magnum ecstacy or magnum bareskin, with just 2 drops of astro glide on the inside). I honestly didn't want to be that tool that bought magnums to feed my ego. Than a gf mine said "oh no, you can't use regular size condoms". At first, I thought she was just saying that to be nice but then when I tried them, it was like a miracle for my dick.
[–]Iron-Giant1690 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
It’s a bitch because I’m allergic to latex so my choices are already limited
[–]42gauge0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Fun fact: "magnum" is normal size, "normal" is small size.
[–]ResponsibleCharacter-2 points-1 points0 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
LMAOOOO right. Poor them, how do not sperm in uterus? Why can't I have zero responsibility for baby? Cry me a fuckin river
[–]SILENTSAM696 points7 points8 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Men have no reproductive rights. These are rights only women have. Maybe what we need are equal rights.
[–]Million-SunsMarriage is obsolete15 points16 points17 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
The last line also explains why paternity fraud is never punished, actually rewarded for the perpetrators who gets child support out of it and victimizing further the victim.
That being said, I don't cry for men. Use condoms / vasectomy, or DNA test the kid before signing the damn certificate if you dread that scenario, you idiots.
[–]Female_urinary_mazeWOMEN LIKE SEX.7 points8 points9 points 4 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
This is a very real problem, though I would like to specify that the issue is men not being afforded enough opportunities for choice, not women having too many. Men should have the right to a "financial abortion," and equal footing when it comes to fighting for child custody.
[–]SILENTSAM691 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
It should be understood for what it is. Men have no reproductive rights. Those are rights only afforded to women.
[–]HumanSockPuppetEqual-Opportunity Oppressor3 points4 points5 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Men should have the right to a "financial abortion," and equal footing when it comes to fighting for child custody.
Funny how you don't see the "equal rights" activists mentioning any of this, though.
Men should not have this right, if anything elective abortion should be illegal. Why should anyone be able to do the thing that makes a baby and then abandon said babies or kill them? Reproductive rights are not rights at all they are just a fancy way of saying "I don't want to take any accountability for my sexual decisions". Of course in all this discussion the needs and rights of the child are completely overlooked even though they are the innocent and vulnerable party caught in the middle of adults who can't make rational and responsible decisions.
If a man doesn’t want to be a parent you can rescind your paternal rights and that typically comes with a cessation of child support. If she gives the child up but you want the child you can go to court and request custody or adopt your own kid.
You’re only truly sol if the woman wants to abort but you want the baby.
I believe the state can actually sue a mother for child support. Just sayin.
Also men can definitely sue mother's for child support so long as they have full custody.
[–]Coder-Cat5 points6 points7 points 4 years ago (45 children) | Copy Link
I mean, if men don’t want babies than why not just, ya know “snip snip”. It seems like such an easy solution. It’s a one time procedure. Has less side effects than hormonal birth control, getting tubes tied, abortion and pregnancy. It’s WAY cheaper than child support and so is freezing sperm for later use, if the need arises. I just don’t understand why more men don’t do it when the risk of paying child support is so high.
[–][deleted] 16 points17 points18 points 4 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link
[–]Coder-Cat12 points13 points14 points 4 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
r/badwomensanatomy r/badmensanatomy
Getting a tubal ligation is an invasive procedure, as well as harvesting eggs.
It takes 3-4 weeks of hormone injections just to ensure that enough viable eggs are able to be removed. The removal is a procedure in it of itself.
The procedure can cost up to 6000$ without insurance.
The recover time is about three weeks.
Vasectomies on the other hand...
To harvest sperm all’s it takes is a, well, ya know.
Vasectomies cost half as much.
Recovery time is half (1 to 2 weeks).
The reversal is cheaper and more successful and I didn’t even look up the risks of any of those but a “snip snip” I promise is a super cheap and fairly low risk option when compared to tubal ligation, hormonal birth control or tubal ligation.
There is no “equal” when it comes to human reproduction. It’s not a choice that getting pregnant, giving birth or preventing either is extremely hard for human women. It’s much easier physically for a man to “snip snip” or just not have p in v* intercourse than it is for a women to get her tubes tied or just not have p in v* intercourse. (Penis in vagina)
____not a full list of sources but for the love of god your only argument is “it’s not fair”!!! Fairness isn’t black and white/tit for tat. This is a complex and nuance subject and I suggest you read up on it for yourself from non biased, science and medical oriented sources.
https://www.verywellhealth.com/how-much-does-a-vasectomy-cost-906900
https://www.centerforhumanreprod.com/egg-donation/donors/faqs
https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/birth-control/sterilization/how-do-i-get-tubal-ligation-procedure
https://myhealth.alberta.ca/health/AfterCareInformation/pages/conditions.aspx?HwId=zy1248#abu5665
https://www.healthline.com/health/mens-health/vasectomy-recovery#takeaway
[–][deleted] 8 points9 points10 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I paid £500 for a vasectomy and that included two tests afterwards. Recovery in two weeks and I was back to work. Easy peasy.
Now if any woman tries to say I got her pregnant I can pull one of these.
/u/KrispyMcSockington
[–]SkylineCrash4 points5 points6 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
but i dont want to, my body my choice
[–]champangemami181 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Not to mention a lot of doctors make it difficult for women to make that choice.
These men don't want to be responsible they want to punish and control women. That's all. For any men to pretend that he cannot avoid siring children is absolutely ridiculous.
Yet we do embryo transfers between cows for a couple hundred bucks.
[–]SILENTSAM693 points4 points5 points 4 years ago (21 children) | Copy Link
Some of us want children. Some of us might want to choose the woman we have children with.
Are you just against reproductive right, or just the idea of men finally gaining reproductive rights?
[–]Coder-Cat1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (20 children) | Copy Link
You can choose the women you have children with!?!? You don’t actually have to have sex with women you don’t want children with.
[–]SILENTSAM697 points8 points9 points 4 years ago (19 children) | Copy Link
Okay, let's tell women that from now on instead of letting them have abortions. Only have sex with men you want to have children with.
If that doesn't sound good to you then maybe you found the hypocrisy.
[–]YveisGrey1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Wait so is this a discussion about whether abortion on demand should be legal? Because there are a lot of men and women who are against legal elective abortions. This isn't a "hypocrisy" that is lost on society. There are a few states restricting abortion rights and guess what? They all still have child support laws so all in all men you are not getting out of supporting your kids!
Abortions have nothing to do with this at all. Abortions are a separate topic.
This is about men being able to say that they do not want to be fathers. It is then up to the woman to decide if she wants an abortion. Also men should have a shorter window of time to decide as it may impact the womans decision, and she only has the three months to decide.
A man shouldn't be forced to be with a woman he doesn't want to be with, or pay child support because a condom broke.
[–]Coder-Cat1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link
Its not hypocrisy because abortion isn’t about “I don’t want to be a parent”, it’s “having a baby is an often risky and sometimes deadly process that we shouldn’t force women to undergo”.
These are two different arguments.
[–]SILENTSAM695 points6 points7 points 4 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link
It is still hypocrisy, and no most abortions are not about the woman's potential for death. Some abortions are for medical reasons, but most are because the woman does not feel ready to have a child yet.
The majority of abortions are optional, and about not wanting to be a parent. Sometimes it is because he birth control failed. I know condoms rip rather easily.
[–]Coder-Cat1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link
Literally the reason abortion is legal is because it’s a women’s health issue.
[–]SILENTSAM694 points5 points6 points 4 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link
It is a womans health issue mostly because it is a medical procedure for women. Not because abortions are only done for medical reasons. The majority of abortions are not performed because of health risks.
Are you saying the only justified abortions are one where the pregnancy is a significant risk to the womans health?
[–]Coder-Cat1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link
A medical procedure is done for medical reasons. Having an abortion is a medical procedure done for medical reasons. If a women just “didn’t want a child” then it would be a simple choice of giving it up for adoption. But women don’t want to be pregnant and give birth because pregnancy and child birth are themselves physically hard on a woman’s body.
This is unique to human women. No other primates nor most any other mammal have such a hard time with pregnancy or childbirth. (the hyena is one exception I can think of with a high maternal mortality rate).
Being pregnant and giving birth is a “significant risk” in it of itself. I cannot stress this enough. Pregnancy and childbirth is uniquely difficult for human women.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/ajpa.1330350605
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4305166/
[–]SILENTSAM693 points4 points5 points 4 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Sorry, but no. Medical science has dramatically reduced ed the risk to women when pregnant. Sure there are times when abortions happen for medical reasons, but the majority are not done for medical reasons. General risk is not a medical reason.
All of that is beside the point anyway. The real issue is that men deserve some form of reproductive rights. The system is too easily used to abuse men.
[–]YveisGrey1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
MMM no. If that was the case then women should be warned not to have sex. Just like they are warned not to smoke so they don't get cancer. Theres all these laws regulating cigarettes & alcohol due to risk yet basically non regulating sex?? Also killing an unborn child is not the only way to avoid a pregnancy and most women who have abortions go on to have kids later or already have kids so what? the risk was worth it for one baby and not the other? Come on now let's not be willfully ignorant the same sentiment driving men to be dead beat dads is the same one driving women to electively abort babies and support pro choice movement. Everyone wants to indulge but no one wants to be responsible. Also consider that due to medical advancement not only is pregnancy safer but so is abortion in fact before modern medicine an abortion was riskier to a woman's health than carrying to term and delivering her baby seeing as doctors can't see inside and would probably puncture her uterus or give her a major infection.
having a baby is an often risky and sometimes deadly process that we shouldn’t force women to undergo
Where are these forced pregnancies you speak of?
[–]YveisGrey-2 points-1 points0 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Abortion is totally about avoiding the responsibility of taking care of a kid after choosing to engage in the act known to create them. If a woman wants to avoid the risks of pregnancy she could also choose not to have sex. Fact is our society is filled with people who want to indulge but take no responsibility for their actions. The fact that all these men are here complaining about having to support their own child says as much. I consider a woman who has a purely elective abortion to be on the same level as a man who refuses to pay child support. Y'all are both deadbeats, selfish, and irresponsible.
[–]Coder-Cat0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Getting pregnant and having children is not a punishment for having sex, nor should it ever be treated as one.
I agree the natural consequence of your actions is not a punishment it's just that the natural consequence. Getting drunk is not a punishment for drinking, but that doesn't mean we allow drunk people to drive. Personal responsibility is considering how your actions may affect the future and others. If you want to drive don't get drunk and if you don't want a baby don't have sex. Killing a baby for being conceived from your choice to have sex makes no sense. It's not the babies fault that they are in their predicament it's yours so why should they have to be killed because you don't like the consequence of actions you chose knowing full well what the possibility was??
[–]lelease4 points5 points6 points 4 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
I don't because of /r/postvasectomypain
[–]Coder-Cat7 points8 points9 points 4 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link
And it’s 176 members? 3x plus more women die a year from pregnancy related causes.
Edit: in the US alone.
[–]lelease0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
3x plus more women die a year from pregnancy related causes.
r u dum? Compare the %
[–]Coder-Cat10 points11 points12 points 4 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Oh, I’m sorry, you’re right. When I compare risk of vasectomy complications to risk of pregnancy I see that 1%-2% of all patient suffer serious complications.
Let’s see, hmm, let’s look at the complications from child birth... 31%.
You have a wealth of knowledge at your fingertips. Use it to gain some empathy.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complications_of_pregnancy
https://www.auanet.org/guidelines/vasectomy-guideline
[–]lelease3 points4 points5 points 4 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link
Let's see, hmm, let's look at reading your own link properly instead of picking the highest number you see.
Severe complications of pregnancy, childbirth, and the puerperium are present in 1.6% of mothers in the US
[–]Coder-Cat2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Your right, I did read it wrong.
1-2% of men suffer long term side effects after vasectomy.
31% of women suffer long term side effects after pregnancy and delivery.
[–]lelease0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
None of that matters because you are actually retarded lol. Dumbass doesn't compare male birth-control to female birth-control, but compares it to actual fucking birth instead.
[–]Coder-Cat1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Thanks for your opinion!
[–]URETHRAL_DIARRHEANo Pill3 points4 points5 points 4 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
r/postvasectomypain is a thing and it's much more common than urologists will lead you to believe. Not a simple procedure at all. Don't really want to risk lifelong chronic genital pain just so I can bareback without worry.
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Chronic pain caused by a vasectomy is extremely rare. It is for the most part a simple procedure. Just make sure you go to a competent doctor who specialises in that area. You can easily check reviews for various clinics that carry out vasectomies. When handling the crown jewels you want the best anyway.
[–]URETHRAL_DIARRHEANo Pill2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
It's not extremely rare, read the sticked post in that sub. The lowest estimate is 1%.
1% is rare. And the fact that sub has so few subscribers should tell you all you need to know.
[–]URETHRAL_DIARRHEANo Pill3 points4 points5 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
The World Health Organization considers a side effect that occurs 1-10% of the time to be "common". Rare is 0.01% to 0.1%. I mainly just disagree with the parent commenter's implication that men who don't want kids and don't get a vasectomy are being careless/ignorant when it's not that simple.
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
1-10% is a pretty broad range. I can definitely agree 10% would be common. But 10% is not the rate for this and 1% being common is a mere technicality at best.
[–]YveisGrey-2 points-1 points0 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Could always choose abstinence. Oh wait but then you can't indulge without being responsible. HOW SAD :(
This applies to men as well as women.
[–]LS12090401 1 points 4 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link
There is no double standard. In almost every case that the woman can choose, the man can choose as well.
Let's a woman is pregnant, and after discussing with the father, she decides she wants nothing to do with the baby. After delivery, she immediately hands off to dad. Well guess what? Dad can still force her to pay child support, can drop the baby off at a safe haven, can forfeit the baby to the state, and can force the woman to subsidize the cost of the child.
The ONLY circumstance where there is a difference is in the woman's right to abort. So yeah, the woman has the right to choose not have the baby in the first place. But no, it is NOT unfair. Because while she has that choose, she's also the one who is putting herself at risk of diseases like gestational diabetes or preeclampsia, anatomical complications such as episiotomy or rectovaginal fistula, death, and countless other complications. She could go into spontaneous heart failure or throw a blood clot or have an infected placenta or lose a substantial portion of her blood volume. So yeah, she's the one who gets to decide if she wants to carry the pregnancy to term or not. If a man thinks he should be allowed to dictate that choice, let's have him pick out one of those complications from a hat. Maybe he'll be more sympathetic if he realizes that there's a substantial chance someone will use scissors to cut open his urethra and then sew it back up.
Let's say a woman is pregnant, and after discussing with the father, she decides she wants nothing to do with the baby. After delivery, she immediately hands off to dad. Well guess what? Dad can still force her to pay child support, can drop the baby off at a safe haven, can forfeit the baby to the state, and can force the woman to subsidize the cost of the child.
Which is exactly why a woman who doesn't want a baby will get an abortion, even against the father's wishes. On the flip side, a man who doesn't want a baby can't force the mother to undergo an abortion against her wishes.
[–]kragshotDon't mind me...I'm just studying all of you talking monkeys....0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I'm just going leave this here....
https://youtu.be/ycmfIex4f0I
[–]meomeowmeowwfurries > TRP-4 points-3 points-2 points 4 years ago (18 children) | Copy Link
why did the man put his penis in the baby maker?
[–]Kos_-_Omak36 points37 points38 points 4 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
A better question is why did he tell her his real name or where he lives
[–]jax006Wants to bang ~20% of PPD chicks13 points14 points15 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
I like to step it up a notch and give her the info of a friend from highschool
[–]maplehobo4 points5 points6 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Man, with friends like you who needs enemies?
[–]TheJim66Red God-Emperor of Slut Country0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I always give the schools retard name.....I'm nice like that
[–]09f911029d7Purple Pill2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
If fake names ever catch on expect a national DNA database like we do with fingerprints
[–]Iron-Giant1692 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
This guy gets it
[–]ThisIsJustATr1buteHas what plants crave4 points5 points6 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I hear the condam no feel good
[–]WhiteningMcClean1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
It feels like you’re fucking the Michelin man
[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ4 points5 points6 points 4 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
Why did the woman put a man's penis in her baby maker?
[–]meomeowmeowwfurries > TRP0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Hes a man. Of he csnt overpower her and stop her he must be a woman.
[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Ah so the logic is all sex is rape therefore men are responsible for babies?
But if men should overpower women, then there's no reason men pay for anything for women, we're so evil, why would we?
[–]meomeowmeowwfurries > TRP0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
what did you just bake in your french brain?
[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
This is exactly what I'm asking you, wtf did you bake in your upside down brain? What's this ill logic?
[–]meomeowmeowwfurries > TRP-1 points0 points1 point 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
you used your bad english to misinterpret something yet again
Why do women deserve reproductive rights if men are not allowed to have any?
[–]cxj75% Redpill Core Ideas3 points4 points5 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Why didn’t he punch the bitch in the stomach when she turned up asking for her Abercrombie hoodie back errrrr I mean ruining his life with crotchspawn ATM cards
[–]meomeowmeowwfurries > TRP7 points8 points9 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
men are complete pussies these days
[–]a-n-g-e-l-a0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Without protection?
[–]P00kl3s-1 points0 points1 point 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Wish I could abort this thread
[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Vasectomy.
[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 4 years ago (73 children) | Copy Link
If the guy chooses more babies will starve because the taxpayers won't want to pick up the bill
Then what
[–]Kos_-_Omak36 points37 points38 points 4 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Feed half of the unwanted babies to the other half. Bam problem solved no more starving babies.
[–]cxj75% Redpill Core Ideas7 points8 points9 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
👌🏻
A man of taste I see
[–]praisethesun799Not actually a fag 😉1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
👍🏻
[–]HIJKelemenoP0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Too much protein.
[–]angels-fanCrooning over hellscapes19 points20 points21 points 4 years ago (35 children) | Copy Link
If you can't afford the kid, then abort! Don't saddle the man or society! Problem solved!
[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 4 years ago (32 children) | Copy Link
What if she doesn't abort lol. It happens of course. Women who can't afford kids choose not to abort errydat
[–]angels-fanCrooning over hellscapes23 points24 points25 points 4 years ago (30 children) | Copy Link
Then she's responsible for the kid.
Unilateral decision, unilateral responsibility.
Easy.
If she can't afford the kid, let it starve!
[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points 4 years ago (25 children) | Copy Link
let it starve!
Society won't pick that door. How could they be convinced that that's the way to go? Like, it was once like that...that's how child support came to be in be first place...
[–]angels-fanCrooning over hellscapes6 points7 points8 points 4 years ago (24 children) | Copy Link
Yeah, I know.
Men are disposable and society don't give a fuck if you ruin a man's life. As long as the woman and child are set, that's all that matters.
But keep on with that "equality", feminists!
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
How else can it be in the end
[–]angels-fanCrooning over hellscapes9 points10 points11 points 4 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
I mean, if equality is the true goal, LPS is the fair way to do it. If the woman has to go on Gov assistance, so be it, but men should get to choose parenthood every bit as much as women.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Taxes go up. People complain about taxes as it is lol even when it would provide them things they themselves need
[–]angels-fanCrooning over hellscapes12 points13 points14 points 4 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Don't care.
Taxes go up for planned Parenthood too, but nobody seems to care about that.
If women are getting welfare then men are still paying for the kids so what is the difference? Like you would rather pay for a bunch of children of dead beat dads than to force those dads to pay for the kids? WHY??? It's a lot more just and fair that we go after the actual parents to support the child.
[–]Willow-girlProud 2 B an American farmer1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link
Think about who made these laws, which existed long before women even won the right to vote. That's right, rich men set up this system -- so they wouldn't be stuck providing charity to a bunch of little bastards.
You have your own kind to thank for your "oppression."
[–]angels-fanCrooning over hellscapes6 points7 points8 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Ok? So?
[–]Willow-girlProud 2 B an American farmer1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Men tend to blame women, when really the culprit -- the ones who set up and maintain this system -- are other men.
[–]XtoDoubtMen Do It Too1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link
We've said this for a long time. It's always been high status men>women>low status men. Except back then at least the thought was men didn't just have responsibility, they had authority. Now they have all the responsibility and zero authority.
Pretty sure married men who supported their whole families on their paycheck had a lot more responsibility than the men today complaining about child support so of course they earned the authority they had in their home.
[–]XtoDoubtMen Do It Too0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
A married man right now who does the exact same thing has zero authority.
[–]Willow-girlProud 2 B an American farmer-3 points-2 points-1 points 4 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
Yes, the consolation of at least being able to beat your wife has been removed. So sorry. Not!
[–]XtoDoubtMen Do It Too3 points4 points5 points 4 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
Women wanted 100% authority and zero responsibility. You got it. Enjoy the mental health meds.
But you are advocating for ruining children's lives many of whom are BOYS. WTH kind of argument is this?? The only true injustice is that we allow women to electively abort children. Everyone should have to be responsible for their children it's disgusting that you would argue otherwise.
[–]angels-fanCrooning over hellscapes0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I agree.
Women should be held to the same standards as men. If you didn't want a kid, should have kept your legs closed!
I say we ban abortion and make everyone responsible. It's the only fair way to do it.
And IDGAF about your bodily autonomy. You lost that right when you fucked.
[–]ZodiacBrave98Open Hypergamy Triggers Me1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Robot ninja test subjects aren't going to volunteer themselves. Enter Child Services and a few faked death certificates, we got ourselves a child army.
[–]LittleBigCheeks0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
What if birth control fails (pill, condom or both being used) but she can't afford an abortion so a a much more expensive birth/child she can't afford is inevitable?
[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
State funded abortions. This is already how it works in most of the developed Western world outside the US.
[–]LittleBigCheeks0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I think that's a great idea. But we don't have anything close to that in the US yet.
[–]that_other_person1Red Violet Pill Woman-1 points0 points1 point 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
It isn't that simple. Many women get depressed after an abortion because of the emotional cost. Abortion clinics are also few and far between, at least in the US. I would have to drive 45 minutes to get one, and that is really close, I can only imagine how far people may have to drive in rural America (I'm happily married mind you, so I will never have to abort).
And then many people are still religious and therefore don't believe in abortions because it's God's plan or because they believe in souls, and therefore aborting even a young fetus is almost akin to killing a full living creature.
All this said and I was in a different universe and got pregnant out of wedlock (it would be a pretty different universe), I am not sure if I could abort due to the emotional reason; but if I'm having sex enough with random guys to need an abortion, than it is a pretty different universe, so maybe I would be fine.
[–]smuthound13 points4 points5 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Many women get depressed after an abortion because of the emotional cost.
You have to be joking. First off, I'm pretty sure that the idea that women get depressed after an abortion has been debunked. Also, there's tons of left-leaning shows that treat abortion as no big deal and even joke about it.
[–]Atlas_B_Shruggin✡️🐈✡️ the purring jew26 points27 points28 points 4 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link
This argument always fascinates me, why will babies "starve" now that women are emancipated and can work?
[–]LotBuilder14 points15 points16 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Because they can only be equal when it’s hypothetical. When they actually have to be equal with objective measurements they try to move the goal posts.
Um because they can't afford to watch a baby and provide for him/her. Heck most men can't support their whole family and need women working along side them. But regardless you can't just leave a child home alone for 10 hrs a day to work and full time child care is super expensive. Lastly, men and women should both be contributing to the support of their child regardless what a woman can afford on her own.
[–]Atlas_B_Shruggin✡️🐈✡️ the purring jew0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
If you cant afford To have a baby without letting it starve why are you having a baby. Don't have the baby get an abortion give it up for adoption you can't afford it. Why does everyone else in the world have to pay for it? This makes no sense to me at all there is no justification for this
[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 4 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link
If the woman tries and fails to get a job that earns as much money as is needed to support the kid, then the shortfall falls to the taxpayer.
I will say I don't see how that justifies child support scaling up infinitely with the payor's income, though, especially if the parents were unmarried.
[–]angels-fanCrooning over hellscapes15 points16 points17 points 4 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
What if the man tries and fails to find a job that earns him enough to pay child support? Will the government step in and subsidize him?
Nope. Of to prison!!
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Well yeah, because if there wasn't a credible threat of jail, fewer men would pay, and then the burden would fall on the taxpayer. The kink in all this is how do you convince society that "let babies starve" is the appropriate conclusion when child support came about in the first place out of a desire to avoid that.
[–]shinypants1173 points4 points5 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
We have over 900 military bases around the world we give hundreds of billions in subsidies to some of the most profitable companies in the world we spend billions upon billions to maintain the war on drugs we can afford to feed some babies without raising taxes if we just stop doing stupid shit
No other developed Western nation except for the USA throws men in prison for missing child support payments and yet most men pay it in those other countries.
Babies would never starve. This is hysterical.
Are men barred from applying for government assistance or something? I'm confused.
For the most part, yes.
[–]Atlas_B_Shruggin✡️🐈✡️ the purring jew10 points11 points12 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
yeh id get rid of that whole "taxpayers" thing
[–]TheJim66Red God-Emperor of Slut Country3 points4 points5 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
If she can't pay she should go to jail.That will put some sense in the women and have them abort if they can't pay for it.
[–]skystar86-2 points-1 points0 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
So in other words the current right wing is pro abortion?
[–]TheJim66Red God-Emperor of Slut Country1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I am.As long as there is the option for the manto financially abort too.
It's not about that. It's about holding men accountable for their children, why would any man complain about providing for their own flesh? Also children do not survive on money alone. A woman who is raising your child is doing most of the emotional labor, most of the comforting, the teaching the nurturing etc.. I am convinced that the men complaining here simply do not have kids. My parents divorced and my dad always paid child support and visited me all the time (my parents even remarried only to divorce again lol). I am only so fortunate that my dad didn't see his supporting of me and my sister as some chore, even now as an adult my dad is still willing to help me financially (not that I need it) because he LOVES me as his child. Do y'all literally hate your children? Are you not ashamed of your despicable attitude towards them?
[–]AI_WAIFUtake the weebpill5 points6 points7 points 4 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Good.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Now that will never be a majority opinion is where the rub is
[–]crackrocksteady7buying gf2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
it's going to be a bigger minority opinion as more men detach from society entirely. if everyone else has convinced you the world is out to get you why does some stupid kid matter
theres some biiiig problems with leaving a large portion of your working age men thinking like this
[–]AI_WAIFUtake the weebpill1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Yup, that's why things are the way they are now. Children always come first.
[–]rhyth7-3 points-2 points-1 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Men cum first, then children. No cum, no kid. It's simple. Penis plug.
[–]The_Madmans_Reign18M8 points9 points10 points 4 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
Make a special tax just for feminists.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Lol how would they be identified
[–]Teflon081916 points7 points8 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
The rainbow armpit hair is usually a dead giveaway.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Ew is that a real thing some folks need Jesus
[–]Teflon081914 points5 points6 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Or an exorcist.
[–]The_Madmans_Reign18M2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Hold a controversial public referendum regarding a key feminist issue, and let it be known that it’s tied to a new tax. Which way you voted would be recorded, but private between the state and you. Voting no would cost nothing, and a “no” result would mean the feminist issue in question would be handled in an anti-feminist way by the government.
[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
What if the guy literally dies? The baby starves?
[–]Iron-Giant1691 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Fuck them kids
[–]oneprettycoolcat2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
What's wrong with babies starving if the mother can't support them?
[–]rhyth7-2 points-1 points0 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Men can choose when to shoot a load.
And where. It amazes me that despite all the porn you kids watch, you seem unaware that there are other ways to give and receive pleasure that don't involve PIV resulting in ejaculation!
I'm beginning to think I need to write a children's book to school the younger generation. Gonna call it "Mr. Magic Fingers Gets a Blowjob."
[–]ladyluck25x-4 points-3 points-2 points 4 years ago (63 children) | Copy Link
This should teach men not to stick their dicks in crazy. If you don't mess with this kind of woman to begin with you won't be in this situation.
[–]diladusta6 points7 points8 points 4 years ago (62 children) | Copy Link
Why are you blaming the victim? In any other context this would be far from okay.
[–]ladyluck25x0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link
How are they a victim of they can control their outcome? This shit has been going on for decades. You don't poke a bear with a stick.
[–]diladusta1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
Why are you wearing revealing clothes if you don't want to get raped? /s
[–]ladyluck25x1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
Rape is not something the victim does willing. Men willing sleep with women without protection.
[–]diladusta1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
False equivalence. You are mixing up consequence and cause Causes: Wearing revealing clothes Sleeping with women unprotected Consequences: Rape Money raped
Both causes are willingly Both consequences are unwillingly. Typical gaslighting🙄
[–]YveisGrey2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
UM no. A pregnancy is a direct effect of the sex act while rape is an act someone chooses to perpetrate. It's not like men can't not rape someone if they are wearing revealing clothing also many people are raped in all types of scenarios and it has nothing to do with what they were wearing.
[–]diladusta0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Someone also choices to lie about birth control.
So no it is not neccesarily a direct consequences UNLESS someone ELSE choices to lie about it.
A woman could get pregnant even on birth control. Also the cause of a pregnancy is the sex act that the man in this case willingly engaged in a woman could lie about being on BC but unless you have sex with her she won't have your baby.
[–]ladyluck25x0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
So are 6 year olds dressed too revealing you sick fuck?
[–]diladusta0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
You are putting words in my mouth fucking retard. I never said i agreed with any of those 2 statements just wanted to point out victim blaming is not okay
[–]nemma8831/F/UK INFP -t. Engaged-5 points-4 points-3 points 4 years ago (52 children) | Copy Link
There is no victim.
[–]SILENTSAM692 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (48 children) | Copy Link
The men with no reproductive rights?
[–]nemma8831/F/UK INFP -t. Engaged1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (47 children) | Copy Link
Equal full reproductive, pregnancy, and all related rights for both genders sounds great in theory, but it is completely impractical until a time when biology between men and women in this area is nullified (AKA until artificial wombs are viable). Until that time we could encourage the state to take the male financial burden, push for advances on the male BC methods, the state to decriminalize abortions (where not already) and for all medical costs to be absorbed by the state (for both abortions AND births), and for advances in the medical area of abortion complications. I'm not opposed to any of those things.
It's a area that can be advanced, but Victim aspect here is really a victim of biological differences that are difficult to find ways to overcome.
A separate thing to say, baby trapping or false paternity where a individual has acted in bad faith and caused victims.
[–]SILENTSAM693 points4 points5 points 4 years ago (44 children) | Copy Link
No, biology makes no difference here. Who gets pregnant may matter to the one getting pregnant, and may deserve some special consideration, but in reality does not matter.
Men should have the right to choose if they want to be fathers. Maybe with a smaller window of time as it may impact the womans decision. He should have the choice though.
Women are equals, and they can work. If they decide to leave a man and take the child they should have made the decision to leave his financial support behind as well. In joint custody the costs for the child are covered when the child stays with you.
[–]Willow-girlProud 2 B an American farmer1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (41 children) | Copy Link
Men should have the right to choose if they want to be fathers.
They already have this choice. It occurs when they decide whether or not to ejaculate into a vagina.
[–]SILENTSAM690 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (40 children) | Copy Link
Ah, so women have no right to an abortion unless the pregnancy will kill them is what you are saying.
[–]Willow-girlProud 2 B an American farmer1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (39 children) | Copy Link
Why would it follow that a woman would have no right to an abortion? It's a relatively simple procedure.
She gets a little longer time period in which to make her decision. Is that "fair"? Perhaps not, but she also gets the physical discomfort that goes with pregnancy (if she chooses to carry to term) or the discomfort that comes with abortion (if she goes down that road). I don't see any men suggesting that in order to be fair, they should have to strap a watermelon to their abdomen for a few months, or have their innards reamed out with a sharp object.
TL;DR: Biology isn't "fair" to either gender. Best to get over it?
[–]SILENTSAM690 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (38 children) | Copy Link
If you just talk biology then why do women want equality then?
It perfectly follows that if you decide to be a parent when you have sex then women have no right to an abortion since they decided to have sex.
The real issue is that when a woman becomes pregnant she gets to decide what happens with her body, and his. She makes his life decisions for him. He has no say in his future. That is wrong, and should not be acceptable.
The woman has 3 months to decide, the man should have some time to decide. Especially since often it has nothing to do with decision, and everything to do with birth control/condoms failing.
[–]nemma8831/F/UK INFP -t. Engaged-2 points-1 points0 points 4 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link
Biology makes all the difference. The problem with Equality in male financial abortion is it is not an equivalent in scenario or outcome and would never be. An equivalent scenario is a man removing a fetus from his womb. The equivalent outcome includes the point there is never a child. There is a limited time window when an abortion can be done with the maximum safety, and that is not a large window that would allow time for legal documentation and everything to be in place, and even then there is risk to the carrier. Even to the point of bringing a wanted child by both parties to term it is not a equal process for both and again, can never be.
Women are equals, and they can work. If they decide to leave a man and take the child they should have made the decision to leave his financial support behind as well.
The woman is not financially supported by the man. It's a contribution to the upkeep of a child, but either way they are not going to do this because it would just push the burden into foster care or other state services instead. The men and women who are having these children we are debating are neither rich nor responsible people. 18 years of Child support doesn't stop irresponsible men from going in without a condom and the lack of means has never stopped irresponsible women from having children. It's cheaper to have that maintenance at the source than everything at mop up.
That choice currently lies at intercourse. For men who never want to be fathers can have a vasectomy and use condoms to lower the risk. These are not super choices but they do exist, there are things men can do to control their own destiny in the case of becoming a father. Abortion isn't something that is risk or cost free, it's simply a choice only one sex gets, and the only one that can be used after conception. Again I would not be opposed to any of the previous things I mentioned but this isn't a easy thing to pick apart and build back up - It will eventually get there sometime but it is a mine field.
[–]SILENTSAM693 points4 points5 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Its seems the time for legal documents matters more than biology in your scenario. Which is why it should just be a right,and the legalities can easily be made a short one day issue. It isn't purely a financial decision for the man though,and shouldn't be taken as such.
Yes men should have a shorter window to make the decision as it may impact the womans decision, and she only has until 3 months to decide.
The women are financially supported by the men. Not simply the children. That said who ever has the children's supporting them while therein their care. I say the man can only see them on weekends then he should only financially support them on the weekends. Maybe primary care should be largely determined by who is more financially secure.
If men can only decide at intercourse,then why not women? Is equality too much to ask for?
Reproductive rights are not a thing. Sex makes babies it's biology. The world owes no one a "right" to sex minus the babies. This is simply something people want to be a reality in the face of biological reality. Humans have been struggling with this conundrum for millenia but only in recent times are they so dense to actually think that such is something they "deserve". Presenting such as a right is akin to declaring it a right to eat 5,000 calories a day, never exercise and somehow never gain weight. Hey if you can eat that much and stay fit more power to you but it certainly isn't something the world owes you. Because of this mentality many children are caught in the middle of abusive situations and the rate of family dissolution is at an all time high. Men and women just need to own the fact that human sexuality serves a higher purpose than mere indulgence and self gratification and act responsibility it really is not that hard to avoid having a baby until you are ready, and one should take the act of sex more seriously considering how serious the consequences can be.
I'm not opposed to any of those things.
I am. I've been careful not to breed any little bastards. I don't want to pay for other people's. I say put the financial burden where it belongs -- on the parents of the child. And don't breed 'em if you can't (or don't want to) feed 'em!
[–]diladusta3 points4 points5 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
The men that were screwed over in paying 20% of their income?
>Stick dick in girl bareback
>Surprise Pikachu face when she gets pregnant
>Wah I am the victim!
[–]diladusta3 points4 points5 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
let men come into them surprise pickachu face when she gets pregnant doesn't feel she is ready to be mom but can't abort wah i am the victim!
let men come into them
surprise pickachu face when she gets pregnant
doesn't feel she is ready to be mom but can't abort
wah i am the victim!
Men who think this way are whiny fucking bitches. Cry harder, you don't even have to be pregnant or go through labor. Wrap up your worthless dick (or get snipped) or stfu, seriously.
[–]GiveMeABreak25Blue Pill Woman-5 points-4 points-3 points 4 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link
Awww. Boo hoo.
[–]SILENTSAM692 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link
I guess we should take away all reproductive rights from women then. Since women want equality, and men do not have those rights.
[–]GiveMeABreak25Blue Pill Woman-3 points-2 points-1 points 4 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link
Y’all are working hard to make that a reality though so?
[–]SILENTSAM692 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link
You men men getting equal rights? Not an MRA myself, so I do not fight for it. I do at least advocate for it. Men should also have reproductive rights.
[–]GiveMeABreak25Blue Pill Woman0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
No. I’m taking reproductive rights from women. Shutting down clinics all over the country. Sorry we want control of our own bodies and lives.
If you want to force women to bear your children hire a surrogate.
[–]SILENTSAM693 points4 points5 points 4 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
Are you intentionally missing the point?
Women have reproductive rights. Men have no reproductive rights. There is massive hypocrisy on this subject as most men are fed the same lines women were before they could have abortions.
[–]GiveMeABreak25Blue Pill Woman-1 points0 points1 point 4 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
No. Their/our rights are being stripped in this country daily. So if the religious right continues to have their way you won’t have to worry.
[–]SILENTSAM694 points5 points6 points 4 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
So you have completely missed the point. Let me spell it out for you then.
The religious right are a problem. Yes they try to strip away women's reproductive rights. Yes reproductive rights are important.
No here is the issue. Men have no reproductive rights. No the reproductive rights of men and women shouldn't be exactly equal as we have different biological roles. Men should have some reproductive rights though.
[–]GiveMeABreak25Blue Pill Woman0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
When men carry children and ultimately are their default care givers- sure.
I’m not missing the point at all. I’m a grown woman who knows plenty of other grown women. I’m in a middle class socioeconomic group. And what I see as the majority is men not taking responsibility for anything unless a court forces them to and majority absent fathers in general.
So when men have the biological upper hand and the responsible upper hand then we can talk.
P. S. That’s never happened and never will.
[–]SILENTSAM692 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Ah, default care giver status, the other privilege women get, and did fight to get.
I am a married man, also in a middle class socioeconomic group. What I see is women not allowing men to get their court ordered visitation/partial custody, and the courts not even trying to defend the rights of the fathers to see their children. Men fight for the right to see the children that are fed lies by the mother claiming the father does not want to see them.
Hell, I have even known mother who take off and leave the men to raise the children alone, with no financial support, even when the woman makes a lot more than the now single father.
PS. You have no idea what happens.
[–]skystar86-4 points-3 points-2 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I don't plan to have an abortion. However you plan to nut bareback in women then cry and scream about how it's soooo unfair you have to pay lmao.
[–]SILENTSAM694 points5 points6 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
The woman also plans for the man to nut in her when she decides to have sex without protection.
Also, condoms break quite often. Birth control fails sometimes. Shit happens.
Are you saying women shouldn't have reproductive rights?
[–]XtoDoubtMen Do It Too1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Telling men you want them to express their feelings is a lie.
[–]GiveMeABreak25Blue Pill Woman-2 points-1 points0 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
The one thing on earth you can’t control. How hard it must be for you.
[–]ponlm2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
💪🏻
[–]42gauge1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
This was actually pretty savage ngl
[+]anitapkcsarlbmed ggse-7 points-6 points-5 points 4 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link
When women are given the upper hand, they make children with unwilling men.
When men are given the upper hand they rape and pillage.
So..
[–]SILENTSAM693 points4 points5 points 4 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link
Ha, no.
How about men just get equal rights? Reproductive rights should not only be for women.
[–]anitapkcsarlbmed ggse-2 points-1 points0 points 4 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link
It's impractical, if men's side wins it will not benefit families in my opinion
[–]SILENTSAM693 points4 points5 points 4 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link
This is not about winning, or losing. It is about equal rights.
If it hurts families for men to have this right then it hurts families for women to have this right.
If men do not deserve reproductive rights then neither do women.
[–]anitapkcsarlbmed ggse-3 points-2 points-1 points 4 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link
Sexual mating strategies are dualistic and different.
Allow men to get away with getting a woman pregnant and telling her to screw off and you'll start seeing all sorts of people doing it. Had an agreement to have a child but changed your mind since your lover became pregnant and no longer caters to your every whim? Financial abortion!
It's not fair but it's the less worse of the two options.
So the reason men shouldn't have reproductive rights are the same reasons people didn't want women to have reproductive rights in the first place? That is okay though because we are applying it to men now?
Guilty until proven innocent is a horrible model to follow. Do not just assume no men would want to raise their children. As it is many men are fighting for the right to even see the children they work to support. It is a major cause of the men's suicide epidemic no one cares about.
[–]anitapkcsarlbmed ggse0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link
I didn't say it's ok or that it's fair. I said it's the lesser evil.
I didn't say all men don't want to. I said that they can easily abandon women they got pregnant even after agreeing to it.
What would be fair would be to decide based on each singular case, but that would end benefitting those that have the highest paying lawyers.
[–]SILENTSAM692 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link
It is actually easier for a woman to abandon her family than a man as the law cares much less about enforcing responsibilities on women than they do men. Men are looked for and made to pay. Women just leave with no consequences.
What would be best is for there to be some reproductive rights afforded to men. Maybe allowing the man to decide if he wants to be a father, or not, within the first month, or two, of pregnancy. Obviously the man's window to choose should be smaller as it likely affects the womans choice.
At the same time the system should be made to enforce parental responsibility in an equal way as well. I have a friend who's mother took off and made a lot of money while the father was left to raise his son on a lower income, with no help. The system does not care.
[–]anitapkcsarlbmed ggse0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link
I agree we should correct the system, I never said it's right or fair.
I said that giving men the same rights women have without giving them the burden of pregnancy and being the weaker sex, because it's impossible, will make things worse in the other direction.
[–]SILENTSAM692 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
Yes, not the same rights, but men need some form of reproductive rights.
That said there are many rights issues where women fought for rights despite a biological difference between men and women. As you say, women are the weaker sex. Yet women want equal access to jobs that require strength. That is fine if the women and men both have the same expectations, but wrong when women are given the job without having to have the same physical requirements.
hm.
[–]ProteinPNo Pill-2 points-1 points0 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I kinda agree but it’s missing the part before you make the conscious decision to inseminate a girl without any form of protection. In the rare case that protection fails then yes it becomes an unfair spiral
[–]LillthOfBabylon-5 points-4 points-3 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I love the propaganda! Lol
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[–]09f911029d7Purple Pill2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Iron-Giant1692 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]ThisIsJustATr1buteHas what plants crave4 points5 points6 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]WhiteningMcClean1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ4 points5 points6 points (5 children) | Copy Link
[–]meomeowmeowwfurries > TRP0 points1 point2 points (4 children) | Copy Link
[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ1 point2 points3 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]meomeowmeowwfurries > TRP0 points1 point2 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ1 point2 points3 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]meomeowmeowwfurries > TRP-1 points0 points1 point (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]SILENTSAM691 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]cxj75% Redpill Core Ideas3 points4 points5 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]meomeowmeowwfurries > TRP7 points8 points9 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]a-n-g-e-l-a0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]P00kl3s-1 points0 points1 point (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points (73 children) | Copy Link
[–]Kos_-_Omak36 points37 points38 points (4 children) | Copy Link
[–]cxj75% Redpill Core Ideas7 points8 points9 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]praisethesun799Not actually a fag 😉1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]HIJKelemenoP0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]angels-fanCrooning over hellscapes19 points20 points21 points (35 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point (32 children) | Copy Link
[–]angels-fanCrooning over hellscapes23 points24 points25 points (30 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points (25 children) | Copy Link
[–]angels-fanCrooning over hellscapes6 points7 points8 points (24 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points (7 children) | Copy Link
[–]angels-fanCrooning over hellscapes9 points10 points11 points (6 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points (4 children) | Copy Link
[–]angels-fanCrooning over hellscapes12 points13 points14 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]YveisGrey0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Willow-girlProud 2 B an American farmer1 point2 points3 points (13 children) | Copy Link
[–]angels-fanCrooning over hellscapes6 points7 points8 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]Willow-girlProud 2 B an American farmer1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]XtoDoubtMen Do It Too1 point2 points3 points (10 children) | Copy Link
[–]YveisGrey0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]XtoDoubtMen Do It Too0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Willow-girlProud 2 B an American farmer-3 points-2 points-1 points (7 children) | Copy Link
[–]XtoDoubtMen Do It Too3 points4 points5 points (6 children) | Copy Link
[–]YveisGrey0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]angels-fanCrooning over hellscapes0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]ZodiacBrave98Open Hypergamy Triggers Me1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]LittleBigCheeks0 points1 point2 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]LittleBigCheeks0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]that_other_person1Red Violet Pill Woman-1 points0 points1 point (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]smuthound13 points4 points5 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Atlas_B_Shruggin✡️🐈✡️ the purring jew26 points27 points28 points (17 children) | Copy Link
[–]LotBuilder14 points15 points16 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]YveisGrey0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]Atlas_B_Shruggin✡️🐈✡️ the purring jew0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point (12 children) | Copy Link
[–]angels-fanCrooning over hellscapes15 points16 points17 points (6 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]shinypants1173 points4 points5 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]XtoDoubtMen Do It Too1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]YveisGrey0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]angels-fanCrooning over hellscapes0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Atlas_B_Shruggin✡️🐈✡️ the purring jew10 points11 points12 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]TheJim66Red God-Emperor of Slut Country3 points4 points5 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]skystar86-2 points-1 points0 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]TheJim66Red God-Emperor of Slut Country1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]YveisGrey0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]AI_WAIFUtake the weebpill5 points6 points7 points (4 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]crackrocksteady7buying gf2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
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[–]The_Madmans_Reign18M8 points9 points10 points (5 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points (4 children) | Copy Link
[–]Teflon081916 points7 points8 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]Teflon081914 points5 points6 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]The_Madmans_Reign18M2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Iron-Giant1691 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]oneprettycoolcat2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]rhyth7-2 points-1 points0 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]Willow-girlProud 2 B an American farmer3 points4 points5 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]ladyluck25x-4 points-3 points-2 points (63 children) | Copy Link
[–]diladusta6 points7 points8 points (62 children) | Copy Link
[–]ladyluck25x0 points1 point2 points (8 children) | Copy Link
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[–]ladyluck25x1 point2 points3 points (6 children) | Copy Link
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[–]ladyluck25x0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
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[–]nemma8831/F/UK INFP -t. Engaged-5 points-4 points-3 points (52 children) | Copy Link
[–]SILENTSAM692 points3 points4 points (48 children) | Copy Link
[–]nemma8831/F/UK INFP -t. Engaged1 point2 points3 points (47 children) | Copy Link
[–]SILENTSAM693 points4 points5 points (44 children) | Copy Link
[–]Willow-girlProud 2 B an American farmer1 point2 points3 points (41 children) | Copy Link
[–]SILENTSAM690 points1 point2 points (40 children) | Copy Link
[–]Willow-girlProud 2 B an American farmer1 point2 points3 points (39 children) | Copy Link
[–]SILENTSAM690 points1 point2 points (38 children) | Copy Link
[–]nemma8831/F/UK INFP -t. Engaged-2 points-1 points0 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]SILENTSAM693 points4 points5 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]YveisGrey1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Willow-girlProud 2 B an American farmer0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]diladusta3 points4 points5 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]skystar86-2 points-1 points0 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]diladusta3 points4 points5 points (0 children) | Copy Link
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[–]GiveMeABreak25Blue Pill Woman-5 points-4 points-3 points (17 children) | Copy Link
[–]SILENTSAM692 points3 points4 points (12 children) | Copy Link
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[–]SILENTSAM692 points3 points4 points (8 children) | Copy Link
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[–]SILENTSAM693 points4 points5 points (6 children) | Copy Link
[–]GiveMeABreak25Blue Pill Woman-1 points0 points1 point (5 children) | Copy Link
[–]SILENTSAM694 points5 points6 points (4 children) | Copy Link
[–]GiveMeABreak25Blue Pill Woman0 points1 point2 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]SILENTSAM692 points3 points4 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]skystar86-4 points-3 points-2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]SILENTSAM694 points5 points6 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]XtoDoubtMen Do It Too1 point2 points3 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]GiveMeABreak25Blue Pill Woman-2 points-1 points0 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]ponlm2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
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[+]anitapkcsarlbmed ggse-7 points-6 points-5 points (17 children) | Copy Link
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[–]anitapkcsarlbmed ggse-2 points-1 points0 points (15 children) | Copy Link
[–]SILENTSAM693 points4 points5 points (14 children) | Copy Link
[–]anitapkcsarlbmed ggse-3 points-2 points-1 points (13 children) | Copy Link
[–]SILENTSAM692 points3 points4 points (12 children) | Copy Link
[–]anitapkcsarlbmed ggse0 points1 point2 points (11 children) | Copy Link
[–]SILENTSAM692 points3 points4 points (10 children) | Copy Link
[–]anitapkcsarlbmed ggse0 points1 point2 points (9 children) | Copy Link
[–]SILENTSAM692 points3 points4 points (7 children) | Copy Link
[–]jackandjill22Red Pill misanthropic, contrarian0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]ProteinPNo Pill-2 points-1 points0 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]LillthOfBabylon-5 points-4 points-3 points (0 children) | Copy Link