Yup | MensRights

Phone companies like sprint compress image downloads. It should be illegal. Download an image on mobile and put it back up on imgur, it is already badly compressed.

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[–]XFX_Samsung 580 points581 points582 points 11 years ago (86 children) | Copy Link

I just have to copy this text because it explains perfectly the NYC video.

If you don't see the problem in this video, it means you are part of the problem. Oh, I see the problem, but I think you don't see the problem. Those are "street people." Some of them are panhandlers. Every single last one of them is of low socioeconomic class. Look how many of them are just sitting around, on a city street, in the middle of the day. They are jobless, they are poor, they are uneducated. The one white guy they spotted is wearing a wife-beater for fuck's sake. They're all street people. Want to know why they make comments at random people walking by, particularly women? They have literally no impulse control. When they manage a thought, it comes right out of their mouth. They're low class people. Their thoughts are crass and base and juvenile. So congratulations Feminism: you have managed to identify low class, urban street people as being annoying. Thank you so much. We didn't know that before. Now what's your cunning plan to fix this problem? Please, tell me of your "final solution" for dealing with poor people. I'm all ears. Apparently, your plan is "raising awareness" which means you yell at average, ordinary guys. Because I promise you, nobody actually featured in this video has seen the video. And if you showed it to them, they wouldn't give a single fuck what you, as an upper class, privileged white girl, think about them. Of course, you wont show it to them anyway. You'd much rather spend your time chastising men who have absolutely nothing to do with it. That's why everyone is ridiculing the video. It's not that any of us think it's okay to follow a woman on a city street. It's that we recognize it's a different kind of person who does it. Look, the lower classes do not now, nor have they ever lived up to the social expectations of the upper classes. Ever seen that movie, My Fair Lady? Has it occurred to you how objectively offensive that movie is, suggesting as it does that the rich white guy is better than the poor woman because his speech and mannerisms are different? Well guess what, that's the hill that feminism has planted its flag on today. "Poor people are annoying!" Wow, okay ladies. You got me there. Come on, let's go protest! What do we want? "We want disaffected, underprivileged people to treat us with more respect! We want them to recognize us as their betters and to avert their eyes when we pass and never say 'hello' to us because they're icky!" When do we want it? "As soon as average, ordinary guys who already do treat us with respect can make it happen!" Clearly, this is a noble cause. Good luck with it. And please don't try to sell me that BS about there totally being 100+ instances of harassment, but they only showed 90 seconds. That's a lie. If there was even one more example of harassment, they would have showed it. If there was a single guy who looked like he had a job, they would have milked that shit for everything they could. No, what's in the video is it. And please don't tell me that no seriously, regular average guys actually do this all the time! Sorry, but the gig is up. Post the full ten hours of video, or I wont believe it.

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[+]Dark-Yoda 11 years ago [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

How do we get rid of poor people? God used Katrina

Also, I enjoyed your rant

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[–]helloiisclay -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

What I mean is that if I'm walking on the street in NC, even if someone doesn't look at me, it's not impolite to still say good morning or something. In NYC, it is seen as impolite or "harassment". I still think it's a stretch to call it outright harassment, but it is unwanted interaction. In NYC, it's not common to greet someone with "good morning", "how you doing", or any other greeting, unless you're in a more social or boring/idle setting (as in bus and train stops, waiting in line, etc as /u/the_philter mentioned), or you know the person.

I think that is the cause of some of the controversy around this video. Most people in my area (central North Carolina) wouldn't see much in the video wrong. The outright creepy guy following the woman is wrong anywhere, but the "good evening" one (can't remember the exact quote, but the guy said something that seemed very mundane) seems ridiculous to many people. The reason for that is the different social cultures. I say good morning to people all the time here in NC, but I wouldn't have dreamed of doing it in NYC once I acclimated to the culture there. Unless people have lived and experienced the culture of NYC as more than a tourist, it's difficult to grasp why the things in the video can be upsetting or can be seen as harassment by the woman. I do think most of it is blown out of proportion by being called harassment, but the video is right that most of these interactions were 100% due to her being a good looking woman.

[–]somewhat_brave 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]helloiisclay2 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

TBH, the fair is a good comparison for some of NYC. A couple of the people is the video looked like street vendors (the "I just saw a thousand dollars" guy, and the one that yelled out of the storefront.) A lot of these people will yell at everyone, male or female, to get attention. If she were to do this video in Times Square, it would be constant people like that, but it's understood so a lot of New Yorkers avoid the hassle.

It is impolite to talk to someone who doesn't want to talk to you, and if they want to talk to you they will look at you.

In many areas of the country, it's not impolite to talk to someone that doesn't look at you. From /u/mhall812's comment:

So weird. Here in texas is you dont say hello or good morning to strangers you are considered an asshole

In my area of NC, it's similar. A "how ya doing?", "good morning", or "good evening" is never out of line or impolite. You're not an asshole for not saying it, but it's not out of line to say it either. Each area has it's own social graces.

From this video it looks like walking down the street in New York as a women is like that, except it happens all the time and there's no way they can avoid it.

It really depends on the area of New York. You're not likely to see guys sitting out in lawn chairs yelling at women in the middle of the financial district in the middle of the day. Most of these guys looked like lower or lower middle class people. It'd be the equivalent of walking through a trailer park in other areas. Would you expect the people there to be the beacons of civilization? As others have pointed out in comments, it appears to be more of a class issue than a sex issue.

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I don't know about the "poor people with no job or education" argument you are making, it seems about as presumptuous as the conclusions they are drawing in the original video. There is no data to possibly support that claim, which is the problem with the original video too... If you walk for 10 hours in NYC, you are likely to see 10,000 people or more, if 100 people say something: that's only 1%.

I mean, 1.1% of American adults have schizophrenia, 40% of which go untreated. Up to 3.5% of American adults have antisocial personality disorder, a mental illness characterized by violating the rights of others and acting aggressively. So you say "poor people with no job or education" are the issue, when the problem could just a well be (and is better explained by) the prevalence of mental illness in adults.

[–]Lcona 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

That paragraph is a good rebuttal to the video (other than the use of rhetoric, and the bit on impulse control). It isn't a good rebuttal to the argument that inspired the video (the occurrence of street harassment, and not just in low-income). And therefore the way the paragraph presents smells a lot like an argument from fallacy.

It is one thing to point out the flaws in the video (those flaws being that it was shot in a low-end neighbourhood), but it makes no logical sense to conclude that because the argument of street harassment wasn't presented well in the video, that altogether the argument must be false. The video is biased to Harlem and low-income individuals, and we can't assume these experiences are extended across an entire city and especially in different cities. However, it is naïve and dishonest to therefore conclude that it doesn't happen in other cities or in higher income individuals.

[–]Throwawayingaccount 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]ffejulator 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It's like you know everything I'm thinking in my head, and found a way to write it down much better than I ever could have. They never take things like socioeconomic status into account, they just assume all men are like that. It's blatant proof why this third-wave privileged white girl tumblrina feminism is comprised of a bunch of people who make emotional decisions and conclusions and never look at the whole picture.

Its like this ridiculously stupid "Videogames are sexist" campaign. To them, the whole reason sexy women are in video games are to disenfranchise and "take agency" away from women. Not because, I dunno, the main consumer base of this product are males who enjoy beautiful women and the producer of said game kind of, sort of wants to make an economically viable product. The latter idea is just too extreme and ridiculous for them to even consider.

Anyways, great post. Way to actually analyze the root problem instead of making emotional impulsive conclusions.

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I don't mind strangers trying to have a friendly chat with me, but I do mind someone getting my attention in an aggressive way just to tell me I look good. I don't need that validation. Most women don't see your compliments as nice or validating.

Furthemore, it's just odd that you believe you have the right to comment on a complete stranger's physical appearance. What are you trying to accomplish by doing that? Has it ever worked?

I'm not saying you're harassing anyone or that you're a bad guy (although the yoga pants comment is pretty fucking off-putting but we can still move on from that), just that maybe you should consider what it's like for that person you're saying it to. Some people feel unsafe having strangers comment on their body, especially depending on the location and time. You might be a perfectly nice guy, but that stranger doesn't know that. They have no idea who you are or what your motives are.

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[–]Black_caped_man6 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Also - "classicists" was a pretty funny slip.

I actually used the word correcting thing since classist wasn't recognized, why is it funny? (non native English speaker here)

I don't think it's a slippery slope as long as you know what you are doing. I know the fact that there are races in the first place is heavily debated but going on visual cues alone it seems pretty damn likely. However this does not mean that there are any other differences other than visual (skin color). There are social differences though, and people will always make generalizations because that is how we observe the world. You assume that something that looks like a tree will behave like a tree. With humans and appearance it's a little bit more complex but the basis is the same.

The point of the post however was that there is a reason for heckling and that is not necessarily sexism, which is implied by the video. Also the point of the post is that perhaps it's not just heckling either, perhaps there is more to this than what it appears to be on the outside.

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[+]palindrome_is_not 11 years ago* [recovered] (6 children) | Copy Link

The top picture is from a video a woman took of walking through New York where she was catcalled and harassed by street people 100 times in 10 hours. It was used to shed light on what women go through in their daily lives but it also was controversial because some of the "harassment" was literally just people saying "good morning". There was a lot of legitimate harassment on the video but some of it was really blown out of proportion, in a lazy way, to add false weight to the argument.

The second picture is a creeper picture some woman took of a 16 year old boy who works at target and it went viral almost immediately because he was sooooo cute. I believe later on it was discovered to be a planned viral marketing campaign but I'm not 100%.

[–]missminneapolis 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

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[–]missminneapolis 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

You don't need to be an attractive woman, though. I know plenty of women who aren't considered natural beauties by today's standards and they get catcalled all the time. While I understand where you're coming from I really disagree with the idea that just because something happens frequently means that's the way it is and will always be, and I think it's a bad attitude to have, when the reverse is easy enough as saying "yeah, that sucks, maybe we should teach our kids not to catcall and call out people we see doing it." It's not an easy fix but all fixes start somewhere. As a lady who walks a few miles downtown to work and back every day, I can tell you that the part that sucks the most is being expected by everyone else to raise your threshold for what makes you uncomfortable because of the attitude that there's nothing you can do about it. It's bullshit.

[–]palindrome_is_not 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]missminneapolis 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

And I'm not trying to say that you shouldn't be able to say hi to a stranger. But there are appropriate situations and places to do that—the street is usually not one of them. If you're in line with a woman getting coffee and you can read the situation and she seems like she wouldn't mind being approached, then okay, say hi, or ask how she's doing, whatever. That's not the same thing as what happened in the video. Even when men are just saying "hi" or "you're gorgeous" to women passing on the street, it's because they have some sort of expectation, not because they just want to be nice, and that's where the problem is in my opinion. I can't say for sure but I really think if the tables were turned and men grew up their entire lives with an equivalent of another gender yelling at them on the street, telling them to smile, that they need to do this or that in order to be attractive to whoever's yelling, calling them pieces of shit who were too ugly anyway when they keep walking instead, that the attitude as a whole would be so, so different. I don't think all men are creeps, by any means. But when you are harassed your whole life for simply existing in a way that's either pleasing (or isn't) to half of the population, then even what you may consider a simple "hey beautiful" carries so much more meaning.

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[–]drascus 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

hahaha yeah so true. I think Men do tend to choose our battles pretty carefully. The thing that I hate when I do get into debates with my feminist friends is it devolves. The second I am bringing up points they don't have immediate responses to they start yelling for no reason. They start literally yelling and crying at me. It's like "really? I am just trying to have a discussion here".

I had a discussion with a feminist friend of mine who got so pissed they were just suddenly said "fuck you, you male chauvinist piece of crap don't talk to me ever again" and then she didn't talk to me for like a month. Is that really a way to have a discussion or do any kind of discourse? I wasn't even raising my voice or saying anything all that offensive... and I am supposedly the violent one? If I am wrong tell me I am wrong and why. If I am right then just deal with it. Don't just freak out on me and try to shame me into agreeing with you.

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[–]polysyllabist2 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Whether I'm comfortable with it or not is irrelevant. The question is whether a single compliment, acknowledgement of your existence, or even someone approaching you and asking you out, is harassment.

And no it is not.

I find it obnoxious when people smoke in public. That doesn't make it harassment.

I'm uncomfortable when people ask me to sign their petitions when I walk passed them, that doesn't make a single request harassment.

And if every 30 seconds some random dude gave me a compliment while he secretly was thinking about fucking me, I might not enjoy it, but it does not make it harassment.

Someone following you is certainly creepy, and there we begin to see argument to be made. Someone who won't take no for an answer, whether continuing to proposition you, or trying to sell you something, or begging for change again and again is harassment. Because the critical component is in continuing unwanted behavior once that position is made clear. A default view of "don't ever talk to new people in public" is an absurd standard.

[–]GrimaceJoe1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I think it's more about abiding by the nonverbal cues that a person isnt receptive to social engagement that are very, very, very clearly being broadcast when they're staring straight ahead with neutral or closed off body language while never making eye contact, looking at you or generally acknowledging you in any way. It's almost always clear when a person is receptive to being engaged versus when they dont want to be bothered, this isnt advanced cold reading shit.

Let's switch the scene. You're walking, staring straight ahead, deliberately neutral expression, not looking at anyone and you pass a group of people staring at you. You dont meet their gaze because you dont want to engage them in anyway, they call out at you assertively anyway. Feel comfortable? Do you seriously think that they're unaware of that discomfort? Or do you think maybe they're aware of it and just dont give a shit?

[–]polysyllabist1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]ilphae1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

In our lives, we must deal with far worse than the slight discomfort of walking unharmed through a multiracial, multicultural environment. I am sure you can think of countless greater challenges that you have been through.

Would I feel threatened? Of course I have been threatened with far worse. I have been shot at, had stones thrown at me because of my skin color, been encircled by gang members, propositioned by pimps and whores. I don't hate them or look down on them for it.

This woman is complaining about a lack of challenge and meaning in her life. She might try volunteering. She could work in a homeless shelter and try to improve the lives of those around her. If she stepped out in to the real world, she would see a mountain of issues that are of higher priority than this.

I could break it down to more pedestrian language if that would be more approachable for you.

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[+]Toctsx 11 years ago* [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

Thank you. People around here need to start adopting this logic, not the "BAN EVERYTHING SO EVERYTHING WILL BE FAIR" mindset I keep seeing.

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I'm confused. Why should some stranger taking pictures of this boy without his permission be grounds for his dismissal?

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You can't be a feminist if your ideals go against what people generalize feminists with. Hue. Literally all it takes to be a feminist is believe in the equality of women to men. Unfortunately, that leaves a lot of room for a myriad of sub-beliefs that get used as what "all" feminists believe.

I am a stronk woman and a feminist. I do defend myself. But I'm also only 5'4" and getting whistled and/or cat called at by myself on a street still makes me a bit nervous. I'd never show it. But women are people and people are different. Some aren't as brave or calm. Women are taught to be afraid of and avoid rape from evil manpigs. So a lot of thoughts go to that. I seriously doubt it's even a small fraction of the intention with catcalls, but when rape is pushed so heavily to be feared constantly it's a bit hard.

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The only one that could be considered a hello in the whole video was probably the one in the picture.

[–]Suffercure 9 points10 points11 points 11 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[+]JigglesMcRibs 11 years ago [recovered] (6 children) | Copy Link

Intent, intonation, and necessity have a lot to do with it too.

[–]Suffercure 5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Suffercure0 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

We know whats creepy now. This wasn't an empty street. Suppose I was walking on this same street and saw that chick, went up to her and said "hey, you're cute. I'm Suffercure" whats my intention here? To ask her out on a date prolly. Is that creepy? Fuck... No! Out of all the sane women I've met, they all would say the same thing. Now here's whats the chick can do... She can outrightly say "not interested" and I would be out of there or she can ignore me an i should take the hint(even though she is being a little rude here, but nobody can fault her for that.)

Also >this kind of interaction is desired by no one really?? Do you think people don't ask each other out in NY? The hellos, the god bless you's etc... Are unwanted? I guess Orlando bloom will have a really hard time picking up a commoner :/ cause i guess if he says hello to someone walli king on the street, its will be deemed unwanted.

an example for you if you dot believe me!

And also it's not true that there are a lot more creepy encounters than normal ones.

Check out this social experiment carried out by a more well reputated company(by company i mean the daily telegraph) :http://m.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/when-it-comes-to-catcalling-sydneysiders-are-a-far-cry-from-the-new-gawkers/story-fni0cx12-1227110190297?nk=2914e5f9bc51880cb74b80ea9dcdfc1d

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Dude, I'm on your side—but women hate compliments from people who are infringing on their space, their day, and generally commenting on their body while they are trying to walk to work. Also, you never know when one of these guys is going to start following you. It's happened to me numerous times. One time the guy even wipped his dick out.

If they are just saying hello why don't they just say hello when I'm walking with a man, or with friends? Why do they look me up and down while they are saying it? They only do it when I'm alone and it can feel really threatening. Some of those guys weren't threatening, but some of them were. I don't have a car to get into. I only have my feet and the street. If they follow me, I can't do much.

The video wasn't talking about all men it was talking about issues with street harassment in NYC. Just because it's not all men doesn't mean it's not a problem. I feel threatened on the street on a daily basis because of pigs that happen to be men. I was even locked in a cab once while a cabbie asked for my number and wouldn't let me out of the car.

I have conversations with Random Men on the street all the time, some of them even say hello me—but they don't do it in a threatening way. I'm very happy to have conversations with people who treat me as a person, and who want to be treated like people. Equality goes both ways.

[–]pajamajoe -2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]OneGirlArmy 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Think of the people that have harassed you, do they all fit in a certain demographic?

Honestly, they don't. I have been harassed and followed by homeless men, normal people in my neighborhood of all races and genders, people with mental issues, men in business suits, and people who were seemingly "normal."

I'm not saying that women don't do shitty things on the street. Certain Women do just as much bad shit as certain men do. It's never "all women" or "all men." Creating a war against men or women is just stupid and gets no one anywhere.

I'm also not saying all men harass women—I'm saying that most people that harass me in a sexual manner are men. That doesn't mean there is a war on Women, but it's probably because 95% of males are heterosexual (assuming 10% of the population are homosexual and 1/2 of those are men) and are attracted to Women, so if a shitty man (not every man) is going to say something sexual to someone it will, statistically, probably be to a Woman. It's not like there's a war on Women or anything. I don't believe in that, or feminism.

I'm just telling my own experience, and I just happen to be a Women that has experienced sexual assault and sexual harassment—yet I have nothing against men or the Men's Rights movement. If anything I find myself defending men against women very often.

I never said disgusting people were solely male. I'm not sure where you saw that, sorry.

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I don't like that you're being downvoted, since you're openly discussing ideas and both receiving and presenting information well.

I'd agree that there isn't some pandemic thing where all men who give compliments are suddenly creepazoids. The whole topic of men engaging in extraneous interactions (such as compliments, small talk on the subway, etc) with female strangers is pretty tense lately, even though the vast majority of such interactions go just dandy without issue on either side. I think trying to stop someone on the street who is clearly headed somewhere just to compliment them is weird in general, since it requires a ton of effort, but complimenting someone on the bus who you were sitting near is pretty normal and generally well-received.

I don't think OPs photo is really a compliment though, but is rather secret oogling similar to what paparazzi do to celebrities with the whole "Oh you're pretty, lets take pictures of you and post them online for thousands to oogle at." It's just got creepy vibes to it. Creepshotting for these reasons just isn't a fantastic thing, and both sexes are victims of it. One might argue that it's more "okay" to do it to men, but I don't really have any evidence on that either way.

[–]GoldenWulwa2 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

We see it more common in women, private parties or huge media outlets (shitty tabloid magazines). It's not okay for any one, but when an issue seems to be suffered by mostly women it suddenly becomes a woman's issue. Once it becomes a woman's issue, it becomes harder and harder for men to come forward when they are victim to it because they don't want to be shamed or called out.

It's like rape. Rape happens to all genders from all genders. Unfortunately, it's seen as mostly a female issue because all females are victims and men are the perpetrators. As it stands, more cases of male on female raped are reported or even male on male rape since it's more socially obvious men are the abusers. It makes me sad this off puts a lot of male from female victims from reporting it. A lot of people would see them as weak and not enjoying sex, which perpetuates the idea men are just sex hungry.

I completely stand by females, but I really wish we could help stamp out the idea men can't be raped/abuse/molested/harassed by women. It paints women as all victims and men as all harassers and that's just not true. Both sides have the ability to be abusers and more often than not women get away with crimes because there's this idea women are innocents. Men are seen as weak for being victim to a crime from a woman, when abuse is abuse.

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I suppose the reason I believe not every one of those "Have a nice day"s was a 100% un-sexually fuelled is based on my social interactions and relationship with different types of media. I suppose because it's to do with other people it's inherently social.

I'm not saying it's right or wrong that men shout at ladies (or gents) on the street sometimes because they think they're pretty but at the same time I don't think that if a woman felt uncomfortable with it it would necessarily be from a biased, unhealthy or irrational fear of rape & abuse fuelled by social conditioning.

I think the subtleties of the situation of what makes us comfortable and uncomfortable with social interactions with (what I believe have) sexual aspects (not that that makes it automatically a bad thing) is a huge topic that's has many many different aspects to look at and couldn't ever be summed up by anything shorter than a book.

One way of looking at it could be that these people who are talking to women on the street aren't getting the positive response they would like all the time is because peoples reactions are always different and require subtlety to maneuver. Even if you are 100% trying to do something nice you can still end up insulting someone or be faced with rejection. My point is that women disliking these kind of comments might not be a reflection of their belief that these men have bad intentions but that these men choosing to say hi to strangers are not understanding the nuances of social interaction which includes understanding that people have biases irrationalities and may not like to be approached on the street.

Saying that I do feel very sorry for any woman that sees men as a threat because that could be really bad for your relationship with the world around them and I really really hope this isn't happening because that would be devastating and be really really worthy of attention. If you do think that I hope you find a way to have a more positive media in America cuz that would be amazing.

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This post is pointing out the hypocrisy of feminist

So, this is a post bashing all feminists, when currently right underneath this post in the Hot section of /r/MensRights is a post criticizing feminists for grouping all men. I don't understand how we can criticize the NAFALT argument when we defend the "not all men."

though some were genuine catcallers and out right creepy, but most feminists even have a problem with the hellos!

The funny thing is that those men just saying hello, might not say hello to other men.

are completely okay with a adult women taking a creep shot of a teenage boy and talking about wanting to have sex with him.

I haven't really read a feminist response on the AlexFromTarget meme, but from what I understand is that a teenage girl took the photo. I think the feminist position of creepshots is that they are against it [see /r/creepshots], but I'll wait to see what they say when males are being creepshot.

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[–]theskepticalidealist1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

SOME feminists have been critical and mostly they were upset that it didn't show white men, because its awkward to use it in the context of blaming men especially white men when the video doesn't show any. Its much safer to blame all men when you show white men do it, but when you show only black and latino men doing it they feel its a bit racist. (eg. The Hanna Rosin who wrote The End of Men, who prefers a video where women just point at a map and say "yea like I totes was harassed there", until the map is covered in pins)

I haven't seen any denounce the video as totally dishonest and manipulative, most of them seem to be saying that it didn't go far enough. They don't talk about how most of the comments are nice and complimentary, or show the Australian version where she didnt get any comments, or the muscly guy walking through NYC for 3 hours that got comments and cat calls from men AND women. etc. etc.

[–]Suffercure -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

No it's saying that when the feminist who believe that men saying hello is harassment and say that "look how men are evil catcallers" they're being hypocritical. I don't know if pointing out hypocrisy and double standards is wrong in your book, but it isnt in mine. I mean look in the media, FUCKING LOOK ANYWHERE YOU WANT APART FROM THIS SUB you'll find that the alexfromtarget shit would be deemed alright, but the holla back thing would be not(not saying that what some people did in those videos was alright... What im saying is that those same news channels/people are okay with alexfromtarget)

the funny thing is that those men saying hello, might not say hello to other men.

Woah... So asking people out or telling them they're pretty is now catcalling?? I guess my mother married an asshole.

Edit: P.s. I was scared for a bit thinking that i actually said that all feminists are hypocrites so i checked up on my comment and realized that I didn't say that I said that

hypocrisy of feminists who believe that men in the catcalling video were horrible people for saying hello.

So yeah... Not talking about all feminist, but about the people who outlasted in 2x(and also you, but you outlashed here) saying stuff such as there intentions make it catcalling even though only said hello. :/

teenage girl took a picture.

Yeah... Thats my mistake. What i meant to write was adult women posting the photo and writing articles about it... You get the point.

but I'll wait to see what they say about men being creepshot.

They won't say anything because they are alright with it... Hence the hypocrisy.

The main pout of this post is to show the double standards against men that a lot of feminist in 2x/media/people in general have and not bashing feminism. Does pointing out hypocrisy and double standards against men sounds like a bad idea to you?

Fin.

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No fucking shit. While we're at it. 1.5 girls go to college for every boy. Fuck off about how girls are underrepresented in higher ed.

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[+]fireisveryfun 11 years ago* [recovered] (18 children) | Copy Link

Alright, let's put this into perspective only a person with your IQ would understand: Someone holds the door for you at a store or someplace. That right there is being polite, nice, acting like a human being. Now lets change the scenario a tad bit: Same person holds the door for you at the same place but this time they follow you and even if you ask them to stop they continue that's harassment; the difference? Its simple really: you asked them to stop and they did not. Now from what I've seen in this video is that said woman walks down the streets of new York, and says nothing to the people doing the catcalling, at that moment its not harassment, but if she were to ask them to stop and they failed then it is.

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I'm sorry and I know this has been done to death, but what gives anyone the right to dictate what others can and cannot say to them when in a public place? I would consider someone actively policing my freedom to speak as something closer to (but still not) harassment.

I think it becomes harassment when it becomes excessive or continual. Even if someone yells something vulgar (which didn't really happen in that video), when did that stop being some guy yelling bs and start being harassment? Why are people trying to water down every serious and deplorable activity to cover everything?

If I say hi to someone, I'm harassing them, at their discretion, if they don't feel like talking at that particular time. The same dilution exists among a wide range of terms. Sexual assault seems to now be any physical contact without a written contract. I do consider harassment and assault serious issues, which is why I think trying to blanket them everywhere to make anything you disagree with sound worse is an incredibly insensitive thing to do.

[–]slideforlife 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

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[–]zazhx 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

That's a good point, perhaps "harassment" is not the right word, as taking (and even sharing) a photo shouldn't be seen as inherently wrong.

It's more a matter of potential for harassment. While I suppose whoever took the photo couldn't have known at the time he/she shared it, by becoming as popular as it did, it certainly opened up the potential for inappropriate actions against the subject of the photo. I'm sort of conflicted on this matter, as while I do believe you ought to be able to take photos of people in public, I still think my gender-reversed scenario would play out as I had described. I suppose that if "Alex" is not offended or upset by the results of the publicity, then it's not really harassment at all. However, the question becomes a matter of if "Alex" should be offended by the subsequent attention as a girl in this scenario might be.

[–]slideforlife2 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]zazhx1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

personally, i don't really care whether people take offense at my personal expressions or not. i look at it like that's their problem not mine.

I think we agree up until this point. In my opinion, a personal expression is one thing, while a public expression is another. While the ensuing popularity probably couldn't have been predicted by the person who took and uploaded the picture, it certainly opens up the possibility of harassment and abuse.

Hypothetically, if the picture was of an underage girl and hundreds of thousands of people (mostly men) were discussing how much they wanted to have sex with her (and perhaps even messaging her directly or trying to find out more of her personal information/doxxing), people would be (I think rightly) outraged. I'm not so opposed to the person who made the initial upload (though I think it was in poor taste, again, with the genders reversed, many people would likely be upset), but the ensuing reaction was, in my opinion, inappropriate because of the rampant and unchecked sexualization of a minor (that I do not think would occur if the subject were a girl, or at least such activities would be met with outrage, not encouragement). If I were in his shoes, I would be at least a little upset (this is probably a lie, I'd probably be proud/happy, but perhaps that's part of the problem). In essence, I feel as though people should have at least a little control over their identity and that some of the ensuing chaos in this situation was defamatory and insulting.

More to the point, I think people should make more of an effort to care for others and take their wellbeing into consideration, rather than simply doing whatever brings the most immediate satisfaction. We shouldn't necessarily censor ourselves, just be more careful and considerate.

[–]slideforlife1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]zazhx1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

There's a saying that "sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me" but I'm not so sure it stands up to reality.

Insulting words, name calling, harassment, do not, of course, cause broken bones, but emotional pain and psychological harm is very real. It is really a Western idea that even though words are used as weapons by antagonists, the antagonist and people around them blame the victim for experiencing pain by believing that it is the victim's fault for being too sensitive rather than recognizing the antagonist is responsible for causing the pain. This notion is not so prevalent in other cultures, and is unfortunate because it can marginalize victims of real psychological trauma (which does manifest in physically apparent symptoms) and encourage bullying and assault.

Moreover, reputation can have very real, very physical effects on a person's life. It can affect a person's ability to participate in certain activities or obtain employment or housing among other things. It's the very reason we have notions of slander and libel as crimes. In any case, when we turn a boy into a sexualized meme, we not only risk negatively impacting the course of his life, but we also work in a fashion essentially opposed to the men's rights movement - that men ought to have control over their sexuality and, just like women, ought not to be treated as sexual objects.

[–]slideforlife1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

a fist ripping through flesh and bone has a measurable and observable effect.

a name-calling episode resulting in someone crying has no physical mechanism. in fact, one person's insult is another person's praise.

Regardless of a person's very real emotional manifestations, there is a choice involved here. You can't choose not to bleed/contuse when punched, but you can chose not to care or to laugh at the idiocy of being name-called. That's what I meant when I said that all these types of offenses require the consent of the victim to be offensive.

If rumors, innuendos and insults are taken into account when trying to obtain employment or housing, anti-discrimination proceedings should be available for the aggrieved -if the injured party really would want to engage with the type of people who are small enough to do this in the first place.

So I'm not too big on the libel and slander thing nor am I very big on the finding fault if someone "objectifies" someone. In fact, I don't think it's even possible.

[–]slideforlife1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]qqquartersss 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]slideforlife 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]slideforlife 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]qqquartersss 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]martypete 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]anonymous_troll-1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[+][deleted] 11 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]AustNerevar 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]zleek-12 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Title	Yup
Author	JDMRexTI
Upvotes	3136
Comments	379
Date	November 6, 2014 2:39 AM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/2lfnod/yup/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/yup.993814 https://theredarchive.com/post/993814

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