"Enjoy the decline"...what decline?

Cordial_Cherry · 2016-02-14T15:09:49+00:00

I'm never sure what this is supposed to refer to, it seems like we're living in the age of advancement not decline?...

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[–]Mr_Donnerhuhn1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

No, in reality it's the government.

Government creates wage pricing issues, and corporate executives (with the opportunity of regulatory capture, and the obligation of fiduciary duty) act in ways that are of the highest potential ROI to the share-holders.

 When you create/alter/destroy a person incentives, that person alters their behavior.

[–]ee4m1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link

And for the benefit of corporations governments are allowing immigration, which drives down wages and interferes with the workers ability to organise and leverage higher wages. As opposed to Japan say, which protects its high wages with a strict immigration policy.

Allowing more immigration is less government interference than before. Immigration laws are form of protectionism and government intervention. Corporations don't want this.

act in ways that are of the highest potential ROI to the share-holders.

This has been popular since the 1980s. Its now realized that this is a foolish policy. Shareholders can enter or exit a company with relative ease. So running a corporation based on making shareholders happy in the short term incentivizes short term planning and profit making at the expense of more solid and longer term goals.

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Here's a page from an actual law firm specialising in divorce.

Let's read:

In UK divorce law divorce advice for men is about managing expectations. It is a very common scenario in divorce in England that the house is transferred into the wife's sole name, the children live with the wife and the husband pays maintenance for the children until they leave full time education while at the same time losing meaningful contact with them. All too often the man feels he has lost everything under such circumstances - wife, home and children - and that what he has spent years building up has suddenly been snatched away from him.

It has not traditionally been possible in the UK to enter into binding pre-nuptial agreements which determine what is to happen to the marital property in the event of divorce. The Courts have complete and almost absolute jurisdiction.

Young children almost always remain with the mother and so the overwhelming likelihood is that a Court would order the matrimonial home to be transferred into the sole name of the wife. This is despite the fact that the husband may have made all the financial payments.

Theoretically the law is equal for husband and wife but in practice, because the residence of young children tends to be with the mother, financial settlements of capital or transfers of property to the wife are almost always very substantial unless the marriage has been very short or there are other truly exceptional circumstances.

Typically, a wife who remains at home to look after the children will be able to obtain Legal Aid for divorce because she has no, or a very low, income and the income of her estranged spouse is not taken into account for this purpose. The husband, on the other hand, will typically not be eligible for Legal Aid because of his income. The first significant effect of this is that the husband will usually be charged very much more for the same legal advice than the wife. This is because lawyers - barristers and solicitors - almost invariably charge "private clients" considerably more than legally aided clients. It is often almost twice as much. ... This obviously puts pressure on them to settle on terms which are quite unreasonable and unfair but if they do not have the funds to continue they very often have little choice.

In effect what this means is that the wife can mortgage the house to pay for her legal costs. Interestingly enough, the husband cannot do the same. If the house is in joint names the wife obviously would not agree to such borrowing and if the house is in the husband's sole name the husband will soon find he is on the receiving end of an injunction if he attempts to do any such thing. The wife's lawyers cannot lose either way - they will be paid by the Legal Services Commission no matter what the outcome.

This is not from some MRA site, but from actual divorce lawyers.

Lesson learned: never get married.

[–]StabbyPantsPillhead10 points11 points12 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

Divorce tends to favor whomever has contributed less tangible assets and/or has less money making potential. Because this has traditionally been women, you could say divorce has a disparate impact favoring women. (FYI, there are limits to alimony, it doesn't typically last forever).

However, the laws are gender neutral. They do not discriminate. They legally couldn't discriminate (14th amendment would be violated). If the woman has contributed more tangible assets to the marital property, and it's split equally (as it most always is under the law, unless there's a prenup), it's going to favor the man in the case of divorce. Also, women continue to be worse off in divorce if the couple is impoverished, particularly if they have children.

Custody laws are also neutral (however their application has favored women, for sure). However that is even changing with joint custody being presumed in most sates.

Edit: presumption of joint custody isn't as prevalent as I thought. In several states there is a presumption of joint custody, but not most.

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[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.-1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

What I mean is that they do not expressly discriminate on the basis of sex, which would violate the 14th amendment. The fact that they may have disparate impact favoring women is a result of the law's application, as well as a variety of other factors (i.e., women requesting to be the custodial parent more than men, the parties agreeing, etc.). The "best interests of the child standard" is not violative of the equal protection clause. But your "tender years doctrine would be" even wiki states that:

Tender years doctrine was also frequently used in the 20th century being gradually replaced towards the end of the century, in the legislation of most states, by the "best interests of the child" doctrine of custody.[3] Furthermore, several courts have held that the tender years doctrine violates the equal protection clause of the Fourteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.[4]

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

A woman who is nothing except bored and sees greener pastures can divorce a man, take half is earthly wealth, and get full custody of his children.

This is just misleading. This is not how the vast majority of divorces work out. Money made/property acquired in a marriage (assuming it's not an inheritance, etc) is marital property. The law considers it earned by the marriage, not just the individual. Women who are the breadwinners are treated no differently.

The rationale behind these laws is that if you are contributing equally to a marriage you shouldn't be left destitute just because your spouse was the breadwinner. You shouldn't have to suffer a much lower standard of living when you contributed equally to the marriage, but in non tangible ways. How is that unfair?

Also, it's not that easy to get full custody anymore if there's a decent parent who actually opposes it. Many states default to joint custody, and many that don't look to the best interests of the child, which many courts agree includes both parents sharing visitation of their child.

Also, your "greener pastures" comment makes me think you're referring to leaving your child's father for another man. Courts determining alimony, at least in my state (and Kentucky is not very progressive), take into account whether there was bad conduct that precipitated the divorce and also whether the person seeking maintenance has help from a new SO.

I feel like TRP (or MRA or whatever) has a twisted view of divorce law and refuses to acknowledge that it's not discriminatory and that although it does tend to favor women disproportionately, there are valid reasons behind it. This whole men becoming impoverished because of divorce is very rare. Yes there are terrible instances of this happening, but it's rare. Women generally are worse off in a divorce, even though the law disproportionately favors them.

http://www.newstatesman.com/economics/2014/09/why-do-we-still-believe-divorce-leaves-men-worse-women

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2009/jan/25/divorce-women-research

[–]throw_it_away1821 9 points9 points9 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.-1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

Marrying someone does not entitle you to a lifetime of the same standard of living as your spouse.

Most state laws have limited alimony to be anything but this. Most states do not allow permanent alimony, instead it's temporary. And many use it as a "rehabilitative" tool. In other words, it's more about helping someone become financially independent/get on their feet after a divorce than it is about their standard of living. Yes, standard of living may be a factor, but it's not the only factor and not the most important one at all. See:

http://divorce.lovetoknow.com/alimony-states

Furthermore, some states (like my state) take into account things like whether the spouse seeking maintenance is living with a new person, has substantial non-marital property, or caused the divorce (although that has a very limited application).

I'm not misapplying logic here. The whole point is to help the lesser money-making spouse be able to provide for themselves. The financial condition of both parties comes into play. So the more money-making spouse's circumstances are also evaluated, including whether that spouse can reasonably meet their own needs.

[–][deleted] 1 points1 points1 points 10 years ago | Copy Link

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Because rehabilitation for use in alimony is meant to "rehabilitate" the spouse with lesser money making potential so they can succeed financially. You can say I'm misapplying logic, but I think you're misunderstanding the law. I think we can agree that being left without appropriate means to support yourself financially is a bit more devastating than being left to learn how to cook/clean on your own - wouldn't you say? No one is going to go homeless or unable to feed themselves or maintain any sort of acceptable lifestyle because they haven't been cooking/cleaning for themselves throughout the marriage.

I mean you have to look at what the law is meant to do. It will never be 100% exactly equal, because one spouse in that situation needs more than the other simply to be able to live without being impoverished. The whole point is so that someone who has been accustomed to having some acceptable level of income to take care of themselves doesn't have it just drop off completely in case of a divorce.

Some alimony states require proof the spouse receiving alimony is searching for an appropriate job or enrolled in some type of education so they can obtain an appropriate job. It's meant to be rehabilitative, not provide them a windfall or provide an incentive to not work to support themselves. This is the type of alimony I think is most appropriate.

[–][deleted] 1 points1 points1 points 10 years ago | Copy Link

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

I do think you bring up a good point about how non-financial contributions are seen as valuable during the marriage vs how financial support is seen as the only relevant factor in a divorce (at least when it comes to alimony). IMO this is a realism-based necessity.

I think you need to recognize where alimony laws came from. SAHMs supporting their families for decades, with no education or means of opportunity, should not be left destitute and unable to obtain appropriate employment. Women who agree to forgo a career so their husbands can achieve theirs should not just be kicked to the curb with nothing after he gets his MD and decides he wants an upgrade. These are the types of scenarios that brought alimony law into existence.

These are valid reasons for why alimony is necessary. These days, you see less and less of that. So it would make sense that alimony has been reformed, is less likely to be granted, and in general, in lower amounts if at all. I believe that to be the case in most states.

You've mentioned your state a few times and I'm glad to see that there's at least one state that seems to be on the right track but you can't use the laws of your one state and completely disregard what happens in most other states.

I'm pretty sure you have it backwards. I think my state is pretty representative of alimony laws in most states. IIRC, most states have reformed alimony statutes to include some basic, common sense, restrictions to curb abuse in an attempt to make post-divorce more equitable for all.

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Right around the era when divorced women got to choose between living with a charitable relative, alone, or in a brothel after marriage and were not permitted to rebuild a new life.

It became that way again when a few generations of men were punished for what rich people did to their ex-wives centuries prior.

There are forms of divorce that don't screw anybody over, but attorneys and the courts can be very persuasive that you shouldn't pursue that kind if anybody in the failed marriage has any money. Because, you know, the attorneys and courts want that money.

Then there's also the fact that for a clean split to happen, both people in the ending relationship have to handle the breakup like adults, without either trying to get some kind of revenge on the other. How often do you reckon that happens?

"Why did you hit him, little Sally?" ... "He took my cookie!" ... "Why did you push her, little Johnny?" ... "She took my toy!" Same shit. Same shit.

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you BPers are a joke, reading any post in there vs MRP should explain it better than I ever could.

you're looking at TRP, a sub with 140k people (regression to the mean) and a large magority of know nothing 21 year old virgins dying for some male guidance. You're going to see a lot of bullshit there. don't blame them, blame the assholes in their lives who have acted just like those in TBP, offering them all sizzle, and no steak in their lives.

That idiot posting bullshit today is going to be the man in a decade who doesn't put up with bullshit, and is generally a quality man, shaming him is only causing damage that you can then turn around and say

'wasn't my fault, I just said he was a rapist mysogynist, he should have just been himself and treated that cunt wife of his like an equal (read:supplicant)'

What person in their right mind would expect a better man to come out of that message?

and don't forget, girlwriteswhat had a great point on the misogyny sling... As soon as you suggest she doesn't shit gold, and worship the ground she walks on, because uterus, then you get labelled as a woman hater.

What an ego driven, completely self unaware statement for someone to make

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I laugh at this too.

Women laughing at lifting. The idea that you aren't inherently worth something, and actually have to work at it is so foreign to the average girl, that putting it as an important part of male development is laughable to the average woman.

The idea that you have to experience the failure of the end of a set, learning how to press through uncomfort, and experience long term gains at the expense of short term pleasure is laughable to the average woman.

The idea that being healthy, fit, and strong is something that you should have to work for or prioritize; laughable to the average woman. you cant workout Tits and ass. Can't lift to get better at makeup.

So yeah, every idiot who laughs at lifting being important just gives another example of how different the genders are, how out of touch women are at knowing what makes a man, how unable they are to get outside of their own head, and how sabotaging they are in their 'critique'.

so yeah, lift, lift big, lift heavy, and lift often. You'll make a better man for it. As a man, you can't pay for fake tits, you don't paint your face with overpriced makeup, and you can't just stop eating for a few weeks after a breakup and look good (while young)

And if you aren't agreeing with all those mate attraction behaviors women do, then I don't know what to tell you, perhaps your dating life and quality should tell you how well that works

[–]BenGunnSilver -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

I wasn't aware that I was a woman. But I have to thank the red pill for letting me know that I don't know what makes women attracted to men. Lifting is an American obsession, and one that I see take place more often in the red pill than in any other place.

When you look like a young(well, does he even age?) Keanu reeves when you go into your ''starving artist'' period of the month and don't shave, and when you look like a young Harrison Ford when you clean up and dress proper and shave, the last thing on a woman(attractive, young women) mnd is the lack of muscles, and when you add to that the general body type these older gentlemen have despite being.. well, old, lifting means nothing at all.

Face, height and then body type. But if you are decently fit you don't need to have a body like a bodybuilder or like Brad Pitt, although I still stand by the truth that a perfect face is far more important than muscles as I've met many guys who were built but had average faces and it was easy for me to get the women they wanted despite doing absoultely no physical exercise at all.

High metabolism. Its a wonderful thing.

its true that male models are better-looking than me, but they have their height going for them. I don't know if muscles even mean much as I've seen tall, handsome skinny guys who have never seen a gym date catwalk models. Shit, even I have done it despite being short. So I'm pretty sure I fucking know what women are attracted to.

Are women more attracted to taller men? Yap. Do women care much about muscles? No. That's a red pill fantasy, and I already do enough physical exercise with my dick inside of them, despite being low smv according to the red pillers. Hell, even I thought for a long time I was low smv due to my short stature and imperfections.

Then I stopped being an ass and I abandoned the nonsense that red pill standards of beauty are and I approached my heart's desire.

It worked.

[–]stonepimpletilists 6 points7 points8 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

There is no red pill standards, it's just a toolbox.

the fact you don't even know that much should be telling. the fact your language had me thinking you had tits should give you pause. The fact that you think SMV is just about height and muscles is another one. If you're doing this specifically to get laid, then you've already fucked up. You're supposed to grow and develop, lifting is the easiest and best way to grow your long term growth at the expense of short term pleasure. It's not because muscles=pussy

Then you sit here and argue with people about something you know nothing about... What a joke. Tell you what, you read the materials on the sidebar for TRP/MRP, then come back and look at your post, tell me how stupid your statements sound, I'll be here to have a conversation when you haven't just made up a boogey man to oppose.

Idiots, watching 21 year old idiots on TRP post idiotic shit, then come here to argue over who is a bigger retard. You both win.

[–]Jet20 2 points2 points2 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]BenGunnSilver 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Dude, most of the guys I see with women are not tall, nor facially attractive. I see short guys who are overweight and balding, average facial looks and they have girlfriends. The secret is not to go after a 10 when the guy's a 5 or less. And what's remarkable is that these guys are def. below average and still they have skinny girls who are 6s and 7s as girlfriends.

They aren't beta bux.

A good personality, respect for women, and not being afraid of rejection!

Yes, women would prefer that 10/10 Ryan Gosling, but chads are very rare and most women are not going to want to become part of the harem of a chad. Women are also attracted to men who aren't physically perfect. Look, in the end the vast majority of people are frankly not even considered average by the standards of 30 years ago, and still they hook-up, they have relationships and they get married.

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[–]wordjedi11 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I hear it in MGTOW subs and forums. A lot of guys have taken a hard look at modern marriage and decided it's a losing game under current rules. Even cohabitation can leave men paying over half the household expenses if they earn more and their partner is irresponsible. I know a guy whose life was ruined by a false domestic violence accusation from his cohabitating girlfriend. It only takes one moment of crazy...

Why bust your ass to be a six figure earner/rat racer if you're just going to end up cucked, divorced, broke, and paying alimony? After living alone for a while, men discover from firsthand experience how cheaply a single man can live. It's an easy comfortable life. Because of our progressive tax code, if you keep your income at basic subsistence level you pay very low or zero taxes.

The media is overflowing with stories about women triumphantly crowing that they are earning more BAs than men. If you care to look, you will also see they still mostly major in liberal arts and education. Maybe nursing. Salaries are low and career participation is spotty, but single women are starting to buy up the big houses single men don't want so they can live their credit-maxed Barbie Dream Life...solo.

tl;dr The game is rigged, so more and more men are checking out. Women have not really stepped up to fill the void.

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[–]daveofmarsFor Martian Independence5 points6 points7 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

I'm willing to bet you're under thirty. I'm also willing to bet you're only looking at advancement in terms of technology.

There are a lot of things that go into society, not just technology.

Birthrates are declining. The average IQ of high school graduates is... declining. The worth of a college degree is declining. The gap between rich and poor is increasing. The national debt is increasing. Unfunded liabilities is increasing. The crime rate is increasing, again. College debt as a proportion of the economy is increasing. The number of young people being able to afford housing is declining. The social trust between rich and poor, white and black is decreasing. The number of violent mass shootings is increasing. Gentrification is increasing.

But the new iphone is going to come out this year. So we're advancing, right?

[–]wazzup987Blue pill, you can beat me black & blue for it later2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

good thing over all

The average IQ of high school graduates is... declining.

not it not its actually risen over hte past 30 years

The worth of a college degree is declining.

flooded market

The gap between rich and poor is increasing.

agreed

The national debt is increasing.

It way to board to say its good or bad. it really depends on what the debt is, how much it cost to service that debt, will people still buy out bond, and the rate of inflation over the course of the debt.

Unfunded liabilities is increasing.

Banker scum that should be shot for treason and economic terrorism for what they did leading up to '08

The crime rate is increasing, again.

no it not its been falling for almost 30 years

College debt as a proportion of the economy is increasing.

It an issues, i think both the libertarian or socialist approach would work to varing degrees, but not both at the same time

The number of young people being able to afford housing is declining.

true but a lot young people don't want houses either and that is largely caused by banker scum which should be shot.

The social trust between rich and poor,

was their ever any?

white and black is decreasing

I blame sjws for their jim crow tactics

The number of violent mass shootings is increasing.

media lies. if you look at it over time the amount of mass shooting remains stagnant. the real issue is gang violence. you know the mass shootings the media doesn't cover.

Gentrification is increasing.

agreed

But the new iphone is going to come out this year. So we're advancing, right?

bread an circusses

[–]daveofmarsFor Martian Independence2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Average IQ is decreasing:

http://uhaweb.hartford.edu/BRBAKER/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2730791/Are-STUPID-Britons-people-IQ-decline.html

http://rinf.com/alt-news/editorials/scientists-suggests-iq-scores-falling/

The reason why many people think it's increasing is that living standards and education have raised the lowest percentile to the average. However what they don't see is the average intelligence falling over the past 50 years.

And as for the crime rate increasing, here is something to consider. Murder rates have gone down or generally stayed the same over the past 60 years. But what is missed from this calculation is that if someone goes to the hospital and survives, then the statistic is no longer homicide but instead attempted murder/assault. The increase in medial quality over those last 60 years has saved more people that would have died and thus contributed to the homicide rate.

So think about that for a second. If medical care gets better, causing fewer people to die and thus become homicides, yet the homicide rate stays generally the same, then we are not actually seeing a decrease.

Another thing to consider about the murder rates is that if we were to ignore high-crime cities like Washington D.C., Chicago, Detroit, and LA (basically only considering American rural and suburban areas), then the crime rate of the US matches Scandinavian countries, which are considered the "best" places to live in the world. Most of the US's crimes are committed in a select few areas consisting of urban poor. Have those areas improved in the last 60 years, or have they gotten worse?

[–]wazzup987Blue pill, you can beat me black & blue for it later0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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When you give SMP control entirely to women who pick who has the sexiest 6 pack, the population gets dumber. Say what you want about the most educated generation, those philosophy degrees are worthless paper. The people coming out of engineering and medical schools are immigrants and immigrants' kids. White american culture is circling around the bowl on its way down.

When you coddle and remove people from all responsibility, they get complacent and weak. This is extremely visible, and the popularity of Bernie Sanders' gibmes with people under 30 shows you how bad this is getting. "b-b-b-but muh rape culture!" This is what real problems look like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHNvsD8mgPU

When you remove all incentives for marriage and having kids, you get the current state of marriage rates, divorce rates, and birth rates among anyone with enough brains to know what a rubber is. "b-b-but the overpopulation!" When the population starts getting crazy old like Japan's it'll all make sense.

[–]sardonis70 13 points14 points15 points 10 years ago (39 children) | Copy Link

When you give SMP control entirely to women who pick who has the sexiest 6 pack, the population gets dumber.

I was chatting with my wife last week about this, but from the other perspective. My oldest (22) says she's never having kids, and she's with a man that agrees. They have decent jobs and WILL make more as they advance, which means they'll have plenty of disposable income to live how they please. Having children would eat all of that income, as well as any time to enjoy it.

In other words, smart, young, educated people are NOT having children because they are smart and young. They know children are a HUGE investment in time and money, and they are choosing to instead enjoy the other things life has to offer. I don't blame them, but realize that what this ALSO means is the people having more children? They are the poor, under-educated "masses" that already have limited opportunity to improve economically, which means they are literally breeding a larger poor class. The "poor" are growing faster than even the middle class, while the MC is being squeezed out of existence.

This is not a "smart" vs "dumb" debate. It is an economic class issue. The "poor" are making more poor than the country is making money. That IS an issue, no matter how you slice it.

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Welfare itself is unconstitutional lol.

Except it isn't. What part of the constitution do you think it violates?

I agree conservatives are retarded like you say tho. The winning move is free abortions or even paying certain ppl to get them like drug addicts. Also free bc.

Free birth control and better access for sure.

Mandatory vasal gel for all boys entering high school.

Unconstitutional.

Over the counter bc.

Agree in theory, but many many birth controls are harmful. Sometimes a doctor's advice is necessary to pick the right one. I could see how OTC BC plus some sort of medical advice from a trained expert would work. Couldn't just force private doctors to do that for free though.

And mandatory abortions to receive welfare.

Unconstitutional and unrealistic. How would you even enforce this?

You can fuck up and become a single mother ONCE and get bailed out. #operationnomorepoor

Please explain. Also, read this. I've posted it here before, I think it's very insightful on this issue specifically.

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[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

The article also said experts estimated only 260 out of nearly 6 million would qualify for the highest amount (higher if you include assistance for education). For what two kids? So potentially, if you qualify for everything (which clearly most people cannot- only approx 260 out of a population of 5.7M) you're looking at $35-41k tops, for two kids. You really think it's such an epidemic? I agree things need reform. But there will always be people who abuse the system. That, ipso facto is not a reason to demolish the whole system, particularly if the amuse is minimal (as the study suggests).

Also, many, many people do not believe in a solely originalist construct of the constitution. It is, and is often interpreted as "a living document." The constitution expressly gives congress the power to legislate for the "general welfare" of the public. Again, show me where in the constitution government assistance is violative.

Procreation, although not expressly provided for in the constitution would be considered a fundamental right, much like marriage or the right to privacy.

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Ironically the OG progressives kicked off sterilization programs.

OG progressives?

I don't see how paying taxes to support other people's reckless and irrational life choices is a "fair trade" either.

I mean I see your point but that justification could also be used to dismantle programs like Medicaid/Medicare, social security, and basically all of the criminal justice system. While it may be "unfair" in the strictest sense of the word, it's necessary, IMO. Ultimately we pay taxes so congress/the states can provide for the general welfare of the people, be it maintaining and building streets, funding public education, helping out the less advantaged, maintaining jails, etc. Thats why there's check and balances and why the legislature is elected, so that the justification you've just mentioned is balanced with actual need. I agree it's not a perfect system and it never will be, but it's better than no such system at all.

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When you give SMP control entirely to women who pick who has the sexiest 6 pack, the population gets dumber.

Not necessarily. The idea that athletes and fitness junkies are stupid is more of a trope from TV shows and movies targeted at preteens than a reflection of reality IMO. In fact, one could argue that athletes and the like are more intelligent than the average joe due to the quick thinking, strategic thinking and spatial reasoning skills sports has caused them to develop. Athletes can certainly be book smart too. Mathematician and NFL player John Urschel comes to mind.

The people coming out of engineering and medical schools are immigrants and immigrants' kids.

So? America (assuming this post is US-centric) is a nation of immigrants. Besides, we're already coming up on a huge shortage of doctors and nurses.

White american culture is circling around the bowl on its way down.

Again, so? Why is this a bad thing?

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You mean filmmakers like the Guillermo Del Toro and artists like Frida Kahlo? Diplomats and political leaders like Indira Gandhi, Kublai Khan, and Ban Ki-moon? Mathematicians like Srinivasa Ramanujan and Shakuntala Devi? physicists like Hideki Yukawa and Abdus Salam? Human rights activists like Tawakkol Karman, Malala Yousafzai, Nelson Mandela, and Aung San Suu Kyi? Chemists like Tu Youyou? Biologists like Aziz Sancar? Agronomists like Gebisa Ejeta? Authors like Chinua Achebe? Religious leaders and peace workers like Desmond Tutu, Pope Francis and HH The Dalai Lama? Not to mention the hundreds of Muslim scientists and mathematicians that have contributed to the advancement of the human race since the dawn of writing, the lesser known but awe inspiring classical kingdoms of Africa that aren't Egypt, the rich writing, poetry and history that came from Indian kingdoms throughout recorded history, the Middle East being home to literally the cradle of human civilization, technologically advanced Central and South American civilizations such as the Aztecs, Maya, and Inca, the hundreds of thousands of inventions including paper, printing, gunpowder and the compass that owe their creation to the Chinese, and the philosophy and art that flourished in Japan.

Pretty sure that all of this is pretty goddamn significant.

[–]Lonny_zone4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (25 children) | Copy Link

Nobody has heard of the people you listed and lol at human rights activists and religious leaders as if they had a part in inventing planes, trains, automobiles, spaceships, and computers.

I have heard of maybe eight of them and they are all either artists or activists or religious leaders. Lol if you think that art, activism, and religion are as important as science, industry, and Western Culture.

The reality is that Western culture is the first world. Even first world countries like Japan have adopted western culture. Practically any country that hasn't adopted western culture is straining under poverty as Western Culture rules the world.

Valiant effort, I find it cute, but every time a bloop encounters my position here they feel the need to list the best and brightest of other countries and cultures that when compared to western culture (which started in Rome and spread west) the accomplishments of those other cultural icons is never cracking the top 100, which is all people from western culture.

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When you have no other information - yes, it's a good method. I can infer that William Shakespeare has contributed more than his neighbor Peter the Peasant simply by knowing that one is remembered and the other forgotten. If we don't have any other information about them, then that's a fair enough evaluation.

But you do have plenty of other information about them, very conveniently provided in the links. You can no longer hide behind your ignorance when you have knowledge just in reach; the fair thing to do would be to evaluate these individuals on their actual merit and not just whether you heard about them or not.

If you think that's too much work then fair enough, but your argument is pretty weak because it can be neutralized by one person (perhaps someone from Asia) saying "I know most of these people very well, but I have no idea who John Gutenberg was, lol".

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And why do you think these mums are single? Psst... chances are the dad's being a childish dick.

Let's see, I got two single mums in my family. One? Husband was abusive. Two? Husband was a cheat. Let's be clear on this. While women do cheat on men, men do some fucking stupid things.

Now you may think people should forgive disloyalty and give a chance to these men, my answer is this. Loyalty and unity is impossible after someone cheats. Trust is easy to earn the first time, it is impossible the second.

A large chunk of absentee fathers did stupid things and are paying the price. The phenomenon of single parents isn't a problem, it's how we are raising young men in ideas where they don't take responsibility for their actions or never learn to adjust.

Fun fact, you guys are part of the problem. You don't treat or regard women as equals or well and a huge chunk of women do leave you guys because they eventually realise that they aren't dating nice people.

And the issue is good father figures.

Tell me, is lifting weights and disrespecting women a good thing to teach?

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Shrinking middle class under a deep debt burden. Industry closing down and restarting in Asia with nothing but shit retail employment left for the displaced employees. If they are lucky.

Half the voters locked into Fox/Trump horseshit, believe they found WMDs. Now, a similar denial of reality is taking over the left, with idiotic feminist memes that were discredited in the early 70s coming back into style. Belief among young people that a patriarchy exists. That the ultra-low rate of rape in colleges constitutes an "epidemic" because a garbage "study" with a self-selected sample is treated as a valid source. No more valid than how conservative radio hosts have call-in polls and they use the self-selected sample to say that 90% of the population will vote Republican. How fucking beneath contempt is that shit.

When an absolute majority of a country are committed to believing things that are demonstrably untrue, things are going poorly.

At least in the 1970s there was some kind of basic mental health care provision. Now after Reagan there's a massive army of desperately ill people living on the streets. Looking at tumblr you see just how many people there are with extreme clinical psychiatric illness in our society, and all they'll ever get is slightly-effective pharma, not therapy and real life training.

The morbid obesity. The crumbling international empire.

You don't need to be on either wing to see how it adds up to a decline.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I agree with most of that. The employment situation is still shitty even though the recession is meant to be over, many of the manual labour jobs that didn't require degrees have now moved to China, people believe a lot of bullshit (although I would argue this is nothing new, it simply changes shape), mental healthcare definitely needs more attention, and morbid obesity is not only on the rise but becoming the norm.

Although, imo, I think the only part of that which constitutes a decline in society as a whole is the lack of blue collar work compared with the past. Employment is very important and a lot of the older generations who already have enough experience to easily get work don't seem to give a shit that it's so difficult for even a graduate to get anything better than a retail job if they're lucky.

The rest of it, certainly they're issues which must be addressed, but I would not call them symptoms or causes of a societal decline personally speaking.

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[–]Hawanja1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

That's not exactly true. This idea of politics being hyperpartisan is somewhat new to the American political experience. It has been the case that in the past, people will switch sides if the politician they're voting for has expressed views that match up with their own. Usually, when people don't like the candidate their adopted party has selected, they simply won't vote at all. It's only in the last 40 years or so, since Reagan removed the Fairness Doctrine that right wing media has taken control and told these people that everyone with a "D" in front of their name is the literal incarnation of Satan. Hillary Clinton is "fiscally responsible" and has positions on trade deals and entitlement programs that nearly line up with the conservatives. Bernie Sanders has a record on gun rights that anyone who cares about 2nd amendment rights would love. But no Republican will vote for these people, not because of their record, but because Sean Hannity and Bill O'Reilly told them to. Then the person who they do support is so fucking ridiculous, he's like a parody of a real politician. That makes them stupid in my book.

But what I mean, is not necessarily Republicans going and voting democrat. They could have voted libertarian, or for a less crazy Republican who actually had practical ideas that could really be implemented. But they didn't do that, they support Donald Fucking Trump.

It's because they're morons. No other explanation for it.

[–]Sunjammer0037 -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (20 children) | Copy Link

Then what do you think would be the solution? It's very obvious that increasingly many middle-class educated women just don't want to be pregnant anymore. And why would they? Childcare is expensive. Pregnancy is often hard and can have unforeseen health consequences, end up in a traumatising labour instead of a healthy one, or even in death, though it's become very rare now. And once they get pregnant, they find themselves having to fight twice as hard for their career and often lose out anyway, especially when no maternity leave is provided.

If a society wants more educated middle-class women to get pregnant, better provide decent conditions.

Or, the only other choice would be forcing women to get pregnant. But if you want that, then better not complain about men being forced into draft or child support.

[–]MakeEmSayAyyGirlNoInventAnything5 points6 points7 points 10 years ago (19 children) | Copy Link

[–]Sunjammer0037 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (18 children) | Copy Link

[–]MakeEmSayAyyGirlNoInventAnything6 points7 points8 points 10 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link

[–]Sunjammer0037 -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

the birthrate is dropping

The birthrate would be dropping a lot more if not for all those measures like decent paternity leave. Financial/career reasons are not the only ones more women choose not to get pregnant. It was bound to happen ever since gender roles became loose enough so that more women feel they actually have an option whether to have children or not, instead of having children being an expected default. Also better sex ed and birth control - even if a woman is unwilling to have children, there's not much she can do if she's not educated on how to avoid getting pregnant and has no access to birth control. Many women just don't want to have children. At all. Not necessarily because of career - they just don't like children, don't have what it takes to be a good mother and know that themselves, etc.

Again, what do you propose to do? Force white, middle-class educated women to get pregnant whether they want it or not so that they could "outbreed" the Muslims? And what would happen then? A lot of men would bail out on their women because nobody asked them whether or not they wanted to become fathers either. More single mothers - is that what Red Pillers want? I thought they were really against them. Also, many women would become resentful about this and/or not make good mothers at all.

I'd say only those women having children who actually want to be mothers, could be good mothers and financially could afford having children is a very good thing.

[–]MakeEmSayAyyGirlNoInventAnything7 points8 points9 points 10 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

[–]MakeEmSayAyyGirlNoInventAnything5 points6 points7 points 10 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

[–]sublimemongrel2 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Maybe uphold the prenups for one thing, if someone signs a prenup they knew exactly what the deal was.

Pre ups are regularly upheld. What makes you think they aren't?

50/50 custody (that feminists protested which was UN backed)

The laws are getting closer to this. Some states have presumed joint custody. Many still adhere to the standard of what is in the best interests of the child. If the child's best interests are not served with a 50/50 custodial arrangement, than the judge has purview to rule otherwise. If they are served with that arrangement, the judge is free to rule so.

without child support

This is unrealistic. If I make $30k and my husband makes $120k and we share custody 50/50 do you really think it would be so unreasonable? My child care costs would be substantially more burdensome on me than him and yet I'm sharing 50/50 in the responsibility. Child support is designed to even things out, not give mom a windfall. Plus, do you really think a man wanting 50/50 custody of his child would want his ex to bear that much more of the burden, potentially at the expense of his own child?

and certainly without alimony.

Alimony and child support are two completely different things with two completely different rationales. What is your understanding of how alimony works?

[–]MakeEmSayAyy3 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]sublimemongrel0 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Prenups get thrown out all the time. Too close to the wedding, she doesn't have a lawyer look at it, ect.

You are basically arguing basic contract law here. Pre ups are no different, nor should they be. Find me a credible source that says pre ups are thrown out more than they are upheld and I might believe you. Until then, this is just your unsubstantiated opinion.

As of now there is no upper limit on child support. If it's taking you 150k to raise a child, you are in no position to be a caretaker of a child as you yourself may be learning disabled.

Where are you getting this 150k number? There was a Reddit post recently on the front page about the dept of agriculture's estimate that the average cost of raising a child for a middle class lifestyle was roughly $250k (going off my memory here, I could be off). If that's the case, how would 150k be unfair if the other spouse makes significantly less? You're not addressing the burdensome argument at all, nor what is in the best interests of the child. Are those things just not important factors to you?

Alimony is completely ridiculous. A man who is no longer getting the benefits of marriage shouldn't have to keep paying for them. That is a relic of a bygone era that feminists are not keen at arguing against at all.

Again, this is just your opinion and you're not answering my question. If you know so much about alimony and what it's designed to do to have such a strong opinion about it, please feel free to elaborate. Alimony, btw, has nothing to do with a man paying for the benefits of marriage after he's divorced.

[–]MakeEmSayAyy3 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Prenups should NEVER be thrown out at all. If a woman signs something, and you think she's an adult and not a child, then she should be held to that. End of story. Anything else is infantizing women.

I was using an example. There is no limit on child support. That makes no sense. It's just a way to extract money from men and give it to women. (this way women can keep voting for the politicians, so we can't steal from the womens!)

Some states have outlawed alimony. It's not my opinion, it's the woman receiving the provisions from the provider male, but the male receives nothing.

Very interesting how everything just happpeeeeens to benefit the woman, but it's for the children right?

But abortion? That's okay! fuck the children! It's for the children until it isn't convenient for the womyyyyn

[–]sublimemongrel2 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Prenups are contracts. Therefore, they are subject to the same basic principles that every other contract is subject to (things like offer, acceptance, consideration, intent, capacity, conscionability). Are you saying prenups should be held to a higher standard of scrutiny than other types of contracts? Voiding contracts because they are legally voidable does not infantilize anyone, it simply recognizes that the contact is void, for whatever legal reason.

Child support is based on reasonable and fact driven estimates. It can be modified. The parties can agree to a different amount. Many don't even choose to pursue it. It isn't meant to support the mother, it's meant to support the child. Does that mean all women abuse it? Of course not. Does that mean no women abuse it. Of course not. Does the level of abuse justify abolishing it? Of course not.

Your views on alimony are incorrect. I would encourage you to research the law. Honestly, you sound like you don't understand the law at all and are just making assumptions to fit your narrative.

[–]MakeEmSayAyy3 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]sublimemongrel1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]MakeEmSayAyy3 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]sublimemongrel2 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

This is not true at all. Contracts are generally interpreted in the favor of the person who who didn't draft it. Again, basic contract law. Do you have a lawyer for every cable contract/health insurance/cell phone service agreement that you've made? Of course not. It's always better to have a lawyer review your agreements, but that's not always possible IRL. Prenups are not routinely voided because one party didn't have a lawyer.

As for your compliant, YOU are the one who says prenups aren't upheld and thus are held to a higher standard by the courts. I asked YOU to provide stats for such a bold statement, which you made in the first place. But you've failed to do that. Fucking even Wikipedia says they are routinely upheld. Google any divorce lawyers blog and tell me that it says otherwise.

[–]MakeEmSayAyy3 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]sublimemongrel2 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]MakeEmSayAyy2 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]sublimemongrel2 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]GayLubeOilTrue Red Pill1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]wazzup987Blue pill, you can beat me black & blue for it later1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

the fall of western society. they view the us as rome. i agree with sentiment but i come at it from left wing frame and i am currently trying to get my degree and get out of the us before we start putting modern day Marie Antoinette and Louis XVI head on the chopping block and we descend in to a reign of terror.

Though it will be great to see every decedent shit heeled corporate whore congress men and womens heads put on to nice shiny pikes. the bread and circus are running. this election season should be a wake up call to the establishment of what to come. we have a facist running on the gop side and democratic socialist running on dem side.

the thing about social contracts is that when they are renegotiated in a short period of time they are typically renegotiated in blood from both sides.

So yeah fuck that.

[–]yo_radical_one 5 points6 points7 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

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[–]OlBastardRP|She said she was 18.10 points11 points12 points 10 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

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Title	"Enjoy the decline"...what decline?
Author	Cordial_Cherry
Upvotes	10
Comments	352
Date	February 14, 2016 3:09 PM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/45r2s8/enjoy_the_declinewhat_decline/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/enjoy-the-declinewhat-decline.276242 https://theredarchive.com/post/276242

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