The Issue is Men

ComfortableJeans · 2024-08-15T09:07:49+00:00

Men are caught in a weird spot.

A mans value, not just in relationships, but as a human being, is still very much rooted in markers of traditional masculinity. That leaves us with quite narrow window of what you have to be.

For example, where as a woman has a spectum of things she can be, while still being desirable and taken seriously by most people, the same isn't true of men. A woman can be a housewife and still be a person of value, the same way she can be a go getter buissness woman and she's not an invisible, unimportant person. She can be taken care of by her partner or take care of herself.

Where as a house husband is often used as a derogatory term.

Women can have value while being a greater number of things. Where as if a man wants to be valued, he has a fewer number of things he can be. He must still be hitting X amount of the traditional masculinity markers. Most of which do revolve around being the "owner".

It's not a womans job to revert to anything, but it is very difficult to navigate as a man when a lot of women want classic value positives without the negatives that come along with said values.

It's not as though women don't look towards big, dominant, confident provider men equally as they do their softer, smaller, more traditionally feminine counterparts.

This isn't going to go for all women, obviously, but a large percentage want to be an owner, without being owned. Which I understand, but it's not an easy road to navigate.

Personally, I'm a little confused about what women like.

I'm a 6'3 big guy with facial hair and a deep, deep voice. But my personality is also pretty feminine. I'm quiet, shy and (probably too) soft. Which past partners have told me they've loved, but then there also seems to be issues with me not hitting those traditionl markers enough. Even with very progressive women.

I feel like I'm expected to be two things at once.

I've loved my partners dearly, and I don't mind working on myself a little in order to make those partners I've loved feel even happier in our relationships, but I'm getting riddles and vauge hints as towards what that work is even supposed to be.

I'm to be soft and sensitive towards other feelings, while also being hard and willing to be callous in my confidence. While also being the big provider man, while also being okay with not being able to be that and being provided for. I'm supposed to tell her what to do, without being controlling. And if she says no to something, I'm to be assertive enough to make it happen anyway, expect when she REALLY means no, and then I'm not supposed to. The amount of conversations I've had with partners that have gone "But you told me not to." "Yeah, but you're SUPPOSED to!"

It's hard to be everything I'm supposed to be at the same time. I'm trying to believe they're okay with my nature, which sometimes they seem to love, while also trying to fill the role expected of me, which they sometimes love... And sometimes they don't.

I'm supposed to fit the traditional man role, and the traditional woman role, and this kind of new third role, at different times, often of which don't seem to follow a pattern even when dealing with individuals and instead depend on a the whims of the fates.

And all this hurts, because I've really, really loved people who've expected me to be everything all at once like this and I don't want to fall short. But most of the time, I don't even know WHERE I'm falling.

I don't want to be shitty and speak in large generalisations, but it at least feels as though this kind of mentality around men fits a LOT of women.

IronDBZ · 2024-08-15T15:17:15+00:00

The majority of men hold inherently sexist beliefs, not through any fault of their own, but through generations of ....

The greatest source of misogyny will always be lived experiences.

The idea that somehow every person until 1960 was just a cultural xerox of their forebearers through time memorial is just a politicized fantasy.

Yes, certain attitudes are cultivated and perpetuated through culture. But it is ignorant to blindly assume that this is taking place at all times.

Socialization is an act, and it takes place under circumstances that may or may not be extant. Daddy can't teach you to play catch if Daddy's dead, if you lose the family farm you won't know how to sheer sheep and plant corn. It is not social fiat.

Not everything gets passed on, not every thing that's passed on is nurtured. This world is full of dying languages and traditions and you're telling me that misogyny is the one thing that gets carried down in its purest form? Nonsense.

Misogyny survives because its terms and definition change through time and in response to the particulars of the culture they're a part of. The relationships that men and women have to each other in their particular time and place. What they choose, what's chosen for them. Demographic pressures, economic pressures, religious pressures, etc.

It's not that every male baby is gestated in some hate-women-juice. Society is complicated, and the people living in it even moreso.

There can be no satisfying romantic relationship- especially long term ones- if the view of the partner is one of commoditization and inequality. The relationship of ownership is always one in which the owner is privileged and the owned are objectified.

And part of what fuels modern misogyny is the relentless gaslighting of men and all the assumptions about what they think and what from others. For gods sakes all of those podcasts are a grift taking advantage of desperately small sections of the population.

If you want to understand what is going on with MEN you have to look at normal people. What they're going through.

The average is not trying to find a high-value woman with a low n-count, etc. That's internet brainrot.

The average man wants to have fulfilling relationships with people who don't think he's evil for existing. Whose desires in life are respected and whose perspective is his own to articulate.

Talking past men is the problem. Dictating to them how you think they should act, is the problem.

How about you talk to other men and see what they want out of life, and then come up with a theory of change. Not this dogmatic regurgitation.

It's shallow thinking.

YetAnotherCommenter · 2024-08-15T10:31:22+00:00

Many manosphere critiques of modern culture literally talk in terms of the exchange of commodities in economics.

There is nothing inherently sexist or degrading about using economic terms. Indeed, if you treat both men and women as self-owners, you have an explicitly sexually-egalitarian economic lens from which to analyze relationships and sexuality.

Yes, treating people as property (i.e. slavery) is bad. But there is nothing inherently dehumanizing about economic analysis and anyone who says otherwise is operating on a bizarre mixture of emotionalism and Marxism.

monocompute · 2024-08-15T14:56:22+00:00

Isn't this just feminist rhetoric you are spewing? I don't think it's mens best interest to adabot to modern society. Not all men want to date casually or hook up. I don't think people should adapt to modern society people should just become better people

Electric_Death_1349 · 2024-08-15T09:21:02+00:00

If you’re going make sweeping statements like “The majority of men hold inherently sexist beliefs” then provide a source for it - dressing your opinion up as facts does not make it a fact.

And you’ve not defined the “issue” we’re supposed to be debating whether or not men are or not, just a load of pseudo-intellectual waffle.

his_purple_majesty · 2024-08-15T08:55:31+00:00

What issue is men?

John_Oakman · 2024-08-15T10:58:29+00:00

Economics talks of the study of human behavior & interactions with other humans, in on the macro scale it sounds fundamentally dehumanizing because the human mind has difficultly comprehending communities larger than a few hundred (which is what most pre historic tribes will ever see in their lifetimes).

Electrical-Ad-3242 · 2024-08-15T09:18:26+00:00

I read this sub for amusement

I'll speak for myself and I can for most of my close guy friends

Guys don't give a shit. We're checked out . Not gonna do any of this. I'm married. if she goes or we split im just gonna do it solo

If I go it's not a worry

i don't see how anyone would want to date in 2024

Cunning_Linguists_ · 2024-08-15T11:14:54+00:00

men bad 😠: the post

women are commodified, men are commodified. That's what happens when you live in a capitalist country and online dating apps are the most popular way to meet people.

Savings_Builder_8449 · 2024-08-15T08:57:18+00:00

I for one look forward to next weeks post where op documents how many times he got laid from this post. I bet it will be 25. she noticed this bro

idlepetri · 2024-08-15T12:25:59+00:00

Real question: what are the top 3 contributions a woman makes to a long term relationship?

According_Second4222 · 2024-08-15T12:55:37+00:00

The tarnished, used, cheapened terminology is likely socially conditioned. This doesn't really matter though. The thing is, men just don't like being in serious relationships promiscuous women. Whatever additional beliefs needs to be latched on to post-hoc rationalize the desire will be.

Take for another example alcoholism. When I was drinking, I always had a reason. It didn't take long to realize that the reasons were bullshit and the only important thing there was was the desire to drink. If one reason didn't justify the desire than another one would.

You can unsocially condition the current beliefs, but new ones would form with the same result.

Devourer_of_felines · 2024-08-15T13:21:06+00:00

through generations of being raised in a society which less than a century ago still had a transactional view of romantic relationships.

Are you really just going to pretend women aren’t the ones making the relationships transactional in the west when a man’s financial situation largely determines his dating prospects?

username_6916 · 2024-08-15T09:27:45+00:00

No, the economic analogy to markets is not objectifying. Even in the world of trading physical goods, we're trading with people. Every relationship is fundamentally transactional in that people are only going to engage in it if they're getting something of value out of it. Now these transactions look different for people we know closely because we know and care about their welbeing in a way we can't for strangers, but there's still an exchange of value going on there. Everyone is a participant, nobody is the object.

Some_randomguy_0099 · 2024-08-15T11:28:16+00:00

Just date, women, bro

Seriously, since you hate the gender that you supposedly attracted to this much, then don't freaking date them.

Since men are bad and toxic and evil go date women instead and shut up

untamed-italian · 2024-08-15T13:08:25+00:00

The majority of men hold inherently sexist beliefs,

The belief that men specifically are more sexist is itself a sexist belief.

It's also invariably projection.

Fair-Bus-4017 · 2024-08-15T13:38:50+00:00

The issue isn't men. Guys are as sexist as women are, you lot just don't care about the sexism women have for men.

And you are correct it is indeed not the job of women to fix sexism. But it also isn't the job of men. These are issues that society as a whole should work on to fix. Not a subset of it.

And if you don't agree with that then the joke is on you, because you are literally hindering the future you are wishing for. Stop putting the blame on certain groups it is helping no one.

Born-Hurry4495 · 2024-08-15T15:12:36+00:00

These posts are ridiculous. You're really over thinking it, its as simple as supply and demand. In today's day and age women are simply more desired by men than women desire men. As a result you're going to get all sorts of crazy people and relationships as people compete and struggle in an unbalanced dating world and socioeconomic landscape.

proffessorCouch · 2024-08-15T22:05:06+00:00

Majority of women hold sexist beliefs too, so who cares

MalePsychopath · 2024-08-15T08:57:27+00:00

Women prefer benevolent sexist men over men who see them as equals.

https://bigthink.com/sex-relationships/study-finds-heterosexual-women-prefer-benevolently-sexist-men/

Relationships have always been transactional and will always be.

Common-Ferret-1435 · 2024-08-15T09:11:02+00:00

Uhm. Centuries of other people’s opinions don’t magically transfer into people.

And women aren’t gold diggers and transact their pussies due tumor either. There’s not some magical genetics holding it together with some “learned historical trauma. Stop pretending you’re black eith “generational poverty”.

Wkmen transact sex because they know they can sell access to a hole.

Men don’t want to transact sex like women are hookers, women are gold diggers and transact sex and relationships.

Women sell themselves as property, however they don’t actually do so. They sell only the illusion that you’re getting that with purchase, but at best it’s a temporary rental with even increasing payments.

Women prefer this business model **which is why they engage in it, and always have. They want that money. Their true love is always money. Not men.

You’re right about one thing, stupid trad cucks need to stop pretending it’s some magical time period in history that never existed where women loved men.

It has never been more blatantly obvious that women are short term rental positions, who only offer the illusion of “property” for same. Not anything tangible.

And what they do sell costs a woman nothing. Ever.

Junior_Ad_3086 · 2024-08-15T16:01:24+00:00

do you have a source for the claim that the majority of men hold inherently sexist beliefs? and what's the percentage of women who hold sexist beliefs?

many men are already adapting to the modern dating scene, it's just not in the way that most women would want them to. what exactly do you think men should change?

bifewova234 · 2024-08-15T17:26:09+00:00

"The problem is men" "The majority of men hold inherently sexist beliefs"

You sure you're not being sexist yourself? Because that's what it looks like. A sexist man is part of a problem but a sexist woman isn't? And how exactly are you measuring sexism? And when a random man is assuned to be a potential threat and a random woman is regarded as non-threatening then oh that's not prejudice or anything. That's not sexism. Because there's all those statistics right? Statistics from the FBI about how men just commit so much more violent and sexual crimes. Jeez you know what about all those cabbies that dont pick up young black men because theyre afraid of getting robbed. They point to all those statistics about young black men from the FBI but when we talk about the cabbies its oh theyre racist oh theyre such jerks. Same sort of prejudicial reasoning but a completely different judgment.

VWGUYWV · 2024-08-15T17:37:20+00:00

I believe men and women are significantly different on average

Therefore, because I believe my eyes, I’m sure many think I am sexist

Electrical_Novel1156 · 2024-08-15T18:51:52+00:00

The issue is large parts of both genders have lost the plot and don't know what they're doing anymore. The difference is that as a society at large we will tell men they're fucking up and how it's their fault. We don't do the same for women and that's how manosphere shit has grown because they're the ONLY people calling out women for their bullshit even if a lot of them are misguided or grifters.

If you think the issue with modern dating and relationships is JUST because of men you're actively part of the problem.

abaxeron · 2024-08-15T09:46:43+00:00

Men have never held a belief that women are property because they are women.

Slave women were property because they were slaves. Men liberated slaves.

No, men don't have to reformat their psyche because someone made up a slapping slanderous lie.

SaBahRub · 2024-08-15T14:35:20+00:00

It’s not beliefs.

It’s desire.

Men just want sex way more than women; they’re not taught or trained to want it

DeathcoreOnly · 2024-08-15T15:40:46+00:00

Putting the blame solely on men is laughable at best. Women are insanely sexist as well and hold men to sexist standards and gender roles. If women are so happy being single and turning their backs on society, that’s fine. No one cares lol

wtknight · 2024-08-15T17:07:14+00:00

There can be no satisfying romantic relationship- especially long term ones- if the view of the partner is one of commoditization and inequality. The relationship of ownership is always one in which the owner is privileged and the owned are objectified.

I don’t think that many men still consider women commodities to be owned. I think what they expect instead is some standard of feminine behavior. Heterosexual men don’t just want to date women who act like men because heterosexual men are not attracted to men.

OkProfessional9405 · 2024-08-15T18:30:23+00:00

The majority of men hold inherently sexist beliefs, not through any fault of their own, but through generations of being raised in a society which less than a century ago still had a transactional view of romantic relationships.

I'd rephrase this as

The majority of men hold inherently sexist beliefs, not through any fault of their own, but through the obivous differences between the two genders.

They can be tarnished or cheapened though sex.

I'd rephrase this as

Studies show women, unlike men have higher divorce rates and lower relationship satisfaction the more partners they have.

It is not women’s job to revert to classic values- it is our job as men to adjust to the modern environment.

There's no question it's a man's job to understand what women want and it's beneficial for him to develop those aspects of his self that align with what women want.

But be careful of falling in to the trap of trying to act the way women tell you they want you to act. What women say they want and what they respond to are two very different things.

AreOut · 2024-08-15T10:01:32+00:00

I agree the issue is men, but for different reasons.

Crimson-Pilled · 2024-08-15T10:42:55+00:00

Yet when women were viewed as unequal commodities, they were nicer and less misandristic than when men started respecting them.

It is not women’s job to revert to classic values- it is our job to force them to accept classic values.

BadMuch2033 · 2024-08-15T20:01:13+00:00

The issue with a shitty culture will always be the people who maintain the status quo. Identity traits don't matter. Whether a person is a benefactor or not, doesn't matter.

People who maintain a bad status quo in any way are the problem.

Similarly, OP is part of the problem for posting such a stupid, baity title.

just_a_place · 2024-08-16T01:14:18+00:00

The issue is men's addiction to women.

The solution is to stop giving a fuck about women.

arielzen969wmw · 2024-08-16T06:12:59+00:00

It’s a multifaceted issue there’s no easy answer.

These issues probably have contributed to…..:

-The breakdown of religiosos institutions -The praise of education and downgrading the public opinion of the trades -Breakdown of families -Culture glamorizing social media and celebrities

There is a way out and it doesn’t have to be returning to traditional values and holding onto the past. Rather….

And this is going to be different for each of us but society will overall evolve to value different traits. Just like it always has.

It is a slow process. It only seems fast for some of us because we(myself included) are beginning to wake up.

For those of us like me I believe we need to redefine the path for ourselves.

It’s making adjustments not blaming others but instead focusing on making ourselves better while trying not to hurt others on the way. Sure we all make mistakes and there will be some people hurt. Try to be thoughtful and take responsibility and apologize when you have hurt someone on your journey. Learn from that experience.

You win if you don’t give up find others that will understand you and help you to be better.

Try to help others.

anoyingprophet · 2024-08-17T04:38:12+00:00

I agree with the last sentence you said that as men we need to adjust to the modern sexual market place.

In the western world, the likelihood of having some trade virgin wife who’s a stay at home is rare unless you’re both from some small religious community.

The issue is, even though modern men should adapt to the market place, in terms of how women view men, the harsh reality is that women haven’t actually adapted.

Women have adapted in the sense of how they have broadened the amount of identities they can adopt. They’re now ok with being boss babes, working women, and are ok with rejecting being traditional which is ok, but they still want they same type of man they wanted 300 years ago.

Every woman wants a traditional masculine man who’s a provider, takes care of her etc, which is ok to want, but most women are not the female equivalent. That’s the issue.

It ends up being this weird situation where you’ll be dating a woman who works as some account manager at some design agency, making 6 figures, she has her own apartment, a dog, she has an IUD, froze her eggs, and when she was single, she had a couple FWB that she’d see every couple of weeks. She goes to drag shows, slut walk, and goes to a feminist book club once a week and has a WhatsApp group chat with 4 of her friends titled something like “f the patriarchy” where all they do is talk about their sex lives.

But then you start dating her, and you make the same amount of money as her, but whenever you split the bill she feels uncomfortable and gets “the ick” and tells her girlfriends in the group chat about this and they say “he’s not a real man.” She wants you to open the door, get her flowers, be an ultimate gentleman. But if you ask her too cook for you, you’re “oppressive.” She gets uncomfortable about you going to the gym because all the hot girls who go there , but if you mention it’s weird that she texts her male best friend who asked her out 3 times in their 6 year friendship you’re “insecure” and “not a real man.”

You then end up in this weird relationship where you’re basically just paying for everything. Your money is yours and it’s her, but her money is only hers, because she still wants to feel like a lady. She never cooks and in fact you make her breakfast. You let her hit the club with her girls where all they do is chat shit about their boyfriends, meanwhile you now only go gym late at night because that’s when girls don’t go because she’s gonna feel uncomfortable if you go during the day.

The whole thing is odd.

Even in the latest season of love island you see this, where every morning the guys all cook for the girls. But the girls don’t really do shit because feminism has effectively taught them, they have to basically give a man nothing but they should still be entitled to want everything from a man.

It’s clear women always want traditional men, but now they’re allowed to still want it and demand it, by ultimately being untraditional women.

And here’s the thing. If you want to be an untraditional woman, all power to you. There just needs to be some compromise.

Like I tell this to my older sis all the time who is basically the modern self made woman. You can’t decide to be untraditional but still demand a man who has the levels of chivalry from the 40s. Doesn’t work that way.

Same with men. If men want a trad wife, be a trad man. You can’t be some dork living at home forever who barely works and has no labour skills and expect a housewife.

So to sum up, men do need to adapt but so do women. Adapting means understanding that the identity you decide to adopt comes with some losses and compromises.

MikeArrow · 2024-08-15T11:32:27+00:00

It's quite interesting to see the cultural shift between people just a few years older or younger than me.

There's a woman at work who is in her late 30's, and she's very much in the traditional mindset. She's got the standard issue husband, two kids, watches reality tv, loves football, bing bang boom straight down the line.

Then there's me, guy in my mid 30's, who completely disavowed any expectations to settle down and raise a family, likes sci-fi and fantasy, doesn't drink, doesn't watch broadcast tv, basically, doesn't have a single thing in common with woman #1.

I feel like if I was born just a few years earlier, I would have naturally conformed to societal expectations like she did. There wouldn't have been any other choice.

kvakerok_v2 · 2024-08-15T16:01:07+00:00

This post:

Self-awareness - none.

Accountability - not found.

guppyhunter7777 · 2024-08-15T18:46:02+00:00

“The issue is men” are isn’t sexist?

rag3light · 2024-08-16T05:35:41+00:00

Women aren't ahead of shit.

They engage in and exploit the paradigm when convenient for them.

They will submit and play that role for men who unsurprisingly fit the hegemonic masculinity mould while talking a lot of that Femme shit to everyone else.

use your head

MongoBobalossus · 2024-08-15T09:05:00+00:00

This seems to suggest it’s not actually men who are the problem, but the lasting effects of patriarchal societal norms.

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uglysaladisugly · 2024-08-15T08:59:33+00:00

Agree with most of the post but i want to add something about :

The majority of men hold inherently sexist beliefs, not through any fault of their own, but through generations of being raised in a society which less than a century ago still had a transactional view of romantic relationships.

Women also have trouble getting out of this way of thinking. Cultural beliefs that are so old stain everyone's mind. Manon Garcia wrote a very good book about that called "One is not born submissive, one becomes one" subtitled "what feminine submission does to men" by questioning how remnants of traditional women submissiveness fuels situations where men have to fill more traditional "dominant" role and posture.

Title	The Issue is Men
Author	Mordagath
Upvotes	0
Comments	276
Date	August 15, 2024 8:44 AM UTC (1 year ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1esq7pz/the_issue_is_men/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/the-issue-is-men.1527336 https://theredarchive.com/post/1527336

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