This is a Classic | PurplePillDebate

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They could saddle the man with the baby and make the woman pay him CS, except she won't pay and no court in the country wants to haul women to prison for not paying their child support. I think society reasonably assumes 2 things :

Women are usually competent at taking care of their own children
There is no outcry against throwing men in prison for not paying CS

I notice they're trying to change that and make it more egalitarian, but it's not working and regressing so they keep bending over backwards trying to bullwhip women into being whatever "alpha female" they want them to be, just like they're trying to force men to take a backseat and do more housework.

That being said, I don't consider a woman taking care of her child to be an "adult responsibility" on the same level as holding down a mortgage or dealing with money issues, I think taking care of a child for a woman is organic and natural, kind of like a child taking care of another child, she doesn't have to worry about money or landlords, just cradle her dolly and feed it, I don't think it requires an adult mentality or is "dog eat dog" like being in the job market.

In that sense I think women are, have been, and always were somewhat insulated from the harsh realities of the world where all they have to do is sit on the sofa and play with the baby.

Being a man on the other hand, is quite brutal, we don't have "affirmative action" to give us jobs and promotions, and alot of people (including the govt) are relying on you to bring in that paycheck, they don't give a fuck about excuses.

In that sense I think men have all the responsibilities, while women do what women do (ie have babies and feed them.) I mean that's their biological function, it's what their bodies are made for.

I realize this is a very male-centric view, but even looking at it very objectively, my understanding bears this out.

In before, "but taking care of children is work too!"

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LOL. Feminism is very much to blame for most of the hyper-punitive enforcement of laws against men.

The feminist movement, NOW, and the women's law center fight ALL laws to do with men having freedom. They fight mandatory paternity at birth, they fight 50/50 custody negotiation, they changed the definition of rape so that only males can be perpetrators of rape, they've fought to have DV laws changed so only males are hauled of to jail during arrest, and so on. They will continue to fight against males having expanded reproductive rights. They fight laws that would allow a non-biological father to use that as a defense for not paying child support.

Where does this idea come from that the feminist movement is this benevolent, altruistic organization that believes in equality? They only believe in equality for women, not men, and they haven't been shy about that. They absolutely could care less about equality for men, unless it benefits them in some way, like trying to get more men to be SAHDs, like that's somehow a boon for men. LOL. Those men just get divorced.

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The thing is, you know beforehand that if she gets pregnant she is the one who gets to decides what happens with the fetus (and it’s only fair; it would be against human rights to force someone to have an abortion). So, in that case, just use protection even if she says she is on the pill and ideally don’t fuck women that you don’t trust.

Plus, there are cases that the guy is like “yeah if you have a baby I will support you, now let me fuck you bareback” and then chickens out. In this case shouldn’t the woman be entitled to child support because she was essentially tricked? But how could she prove that to court? She couldn’t.

Also, the baby is an innocent creature, it doesn’t matter that the father didn’t want it, the court decides what’s best for the baby. If the father didn’t want a baby, he should be more careful. Honestly, I think that RP men are very naive and think as man children when arguing about this.

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Agreed, but the guy above was specifically taking issue with the “well keep it in your pants if you don’t want that risk” argument which comes off as a double standard since the same people saying that would probably balk at someone saying something similar regarding women and abortions.

Sure some women might be careless and depend too much on abortions, and some men are careless and got a girl pregnant through their own fault, but essentially slut shaming either men or women based on that minority is stupid.

At the same time, I do think men should be on the hook to support their unwanted children. At least until there’s a much more convenient alternative to abortion, in which case I’d support the ability for men to sign away all parental rights including financial obligations.

[–]YveisGrey0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

You know women can and do get pregnant on BC. It's pure entitlement that leads a man to believe that he can have sex with a woman and not get her pregnant. Sorry but that whole scenario is against biology. He expects the woman to pump her system with drugs so he can hit it bareback and quit it, then reality sets in. Sorry that society doesn't easily allow you to use women as masturbation devices. IMO unless you are in a serious relationship where having a kid wouldn't be the end of the world you shouldn't be having sex without a condom (something that you are in full control of rather than relying on the woman), ideally you wouldn't have sex at all since most common forms of contraception have failure rates. The men complaining about this don't want to face or accept reality. Your sperm + her egg = baby, I know sex feels good but that can't be an excuse to for leaving rational thought at the door. Use your common sense and learn self control/discipline.

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Your blameing men for being infant Trapped because they didnt used protection saying if the don't use a condom its their own fault

Ohh, so now we don't like it? Weird, I thought this sub was all about "if u wear cleavage u askin 4 rape!!1!". Who would've thought that reversing that "logic" would make y'all this butthurt?

But protection for women also exist so shouldn't it just be her fault if she doesn't use it and gets pregnant thus abortion shouldn't be a thingp

This is difficult to decipher, but I'll try. Yeah, protection for women exists. It has always been woman's responsibility, so no need to act like someone is suddenly forcing all the poor dudes into this super hard task of being mindful of the fact, that sex can sometimes (unfortunately) create new people. Birth control is never 100%, that's why there's abortion for those who got pregnant accidentally.

That's not the point. The point is that the woman who WANTS to infant trap you is likely NOT on birth control and will try to get pregnant ON PURPOSE. She won't get an abortion because this is her goal - she wants a kid and someone to pay for it. But you have no way of knowing this until it's too late. Therefore, if you want to avoid this situation, carry your own condoms and use them. It's not like anyone's asking you to get a vasectomy (even though that would be the best scenario). It's literally having 2-3 condoms in your wallet. If you can't be arsed to do that, you deserve every single infant trap that's coming to you.

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The two cannot be compared. Pregnancy is a direct effect of the sex act while rape is an act that person chooses to do. We cannot absolve the choice a man makes when he chooses to rape someone no matter how careless you feel the victim was being. At the end of the day all types of women are raped heck even children get raped thus the onus must be 100% on the rapist. The fact that any person can do somethings to mitigate their risk of becoming a crime victim does not absolve the criminal of their crimes. On the other hand getting pregnant from sex and choosing not to kill your unborn child is NOT a crime in any way shape or form. If a man doesn't want a child he should abstain from sex or get a vasectomy. And if anything equal amount of men "trap" women with babies, they want women to get pregnant by them so they will feel less reluctant to leave a relationship this is an issue that can effect men and women but each must be responsible for their sexual choices regardless.

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r/badwomensanatomy r/badmensanatomy

Getting a tubal ligation is an invasive procedure, as well as harvesting eggs.

It takes 3-4 weeks of hormone injections just to ensure that enough viable eggs are able to be removed. The removal is a procedure in it of itself.

The procedure can cost up to 6000$ without insurance.

The recover time is about three weeks.

Vasectomies on the other hand...

To harvest sperm all’s it takes is a, well, ya know.

Vasectomies cost half as much.

Recovery time is half (1 to 2 weeks).

The reversal is cheaper and more successful and I didn’t even look up the risks of any of those but a “snip snip” I promise is a super cheap and fairly low risk option when compared to tubal ligation, hormonal birth control or tubal ligation.

There is no “equal” when it comes to human reproduction. It’s not a choice that getting pregnant, giving birth or preventing either is extremely hard for human women. It’s much easier physically for a man to “snip snip” or just not have p in v* intercourse than it is for a women to get her tubes tied or just not have p in v* intercourse. (Penis in vagina)

____not a full list of sources but for the love of god your only argument is “it’s not fair”!!! Fairness isn’t black and white/tit for tat. This is a complex and nuance subject and I suggest you read up on it for yourself from non biased, science and medical oriented sources.

https://www.verywellhealth.com/how-much-does-a-vasectomy-cost-906900

https://www.centerforhumanreprod.com/egg-donation/donors/faqs

https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/birth-control/sterilization/how-do-i-get-tubal-ligation-procedure

https://myhealth.alberta.ca/health/AfterCareInformation/pages/conditions.aspx?HwId=zy1248#abu5665

https://www.healthline.com/health/mens-health/vasectomy-recovery#takeaway

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A medical procedure is done for medical reasons. Having an abortion is a medical procedure done for medical reasons. If a women just “didn’t want a child” then it would be a simple choice of giving it up for adoption. But women don’t want to be pregnant and give birth because pregnancy and child birth are themselves physically hard on a woman’s body.

This is unique to human women. No other primates nor most any other mammal have such a hard time with pregnancy or childbirth. (the hyena is one exception I can think of with a high maternal mortality rate).

Being pregnant and giving birth is a “significant risk” in it of itself. I cannot stress this enough. Pregnancy and childbirth is uniquely difficult for human women.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/ajpa.1330350605

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4305166/

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[–]Coder-Cat2 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I won’t even argue that first point because access to abortion in America is abysmal. If you think otherwise, you’re not paying attention.

Back to reproductive rights. I’ll repeat my last point, reproductive rights apply to reproductive organs. Men don’t have the choice to end a pregnancy early because they’re not the one with those types of reproductive organs. It’s not a “I don’t want kids” argument, it’s a “this is my body”. Terminating a pregnancy is as unique to women’s reproduction as a man getting his tubes tied. You can’t force a women or a man to undergo a medical procedure for any reason. To say that you should because “fairness” is a slippery slope to walk down.

https://data.guttmacher.org/states/table?state=AL+AK+AZ+AR+CA+CO+CT+DE+DC+FL+GA+HI+ID+IL+IN+IA+KS+KY+LA+ME+MD+MA+MI+MN+MS+MO+MT+NE+NV+NH+NJ+NM+NY+NC+ND+OH+OK+OR+PA+RI+SC+SD+TN+TX+UT+VT+VA+WA+WV+WI+WY&topics=57&dataset=data

[–]SILENTSAM692 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]YveisGrey1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

MMM no. If that was the case then women should be warned not to have sex. Just like they are warned not to smoke so they don't get cancer. Theres all these laws regulating cigarettes & alcohol due to risk yet basically non regulating sex?? Also killing an unborn child is not the only way to avoid a pregnancy and most women who have abortions go on to have kids later or already have kids so what? the risk was worth it for one baby and not the other? Come on now let's not be willfully ignorant the same sentiment driving men to be dead beat dads is the same one driving women to electively abort babies and support pro choice movement. Everyone wants to indulge but no one wants to be responsible. Also consider that due to medical advancement not only is pregnancy safer but so is abortion in fact before modern medicine an abortion was riskier to a woman's health than carrying to term and delivering her baby seeing as doctors can't see inside and would probably puncture her uterus or give her a major infection.

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There is no double standard. In almost every case that the woman can choose, the man can choose as well.

Let's a woman is pregnant, and after discussing with the father, she decides she wants nothing to do with the baby. After delivery, she immediately hands off to dad. Well guess what? Dad can still force her to pay child support, can drop the baby off at a safe haven, can forfeit the baby to the state, and can force the woman to subsidize the cost of the child.

The ONLY circumstance where there is a difference is in the woman's right to abort. So yeah, the woman has the right to choose not have the baby in the first place. But no, it is NOT unfair. Because while she has that choose, she's also the one who is putting herself at risk of diseases like gestational diabetes or preeclampsia, anatomical complications such as episiotomy or rectovaginal fistula, death, and countless other complications. She could go into spontaneous heart failure or throw a blood clot or have an infected placenta or lose a substantial portion of her blood volume. So yeah, she's the one who gets to decide if she wants to carry the pregnancy to term or not. If a man thinks he should be allowed to dictate that choice, let's have him pick out one of those complications from a hat. Maybe he'll be more sympathetic if he realizes that there's a substantial chance someone will use scissors to cut open his urethra and then sew it back up.

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It isn't that simple. Many women get depressed after an abortion because of the emotional cost. Abortion clinics are also few and far between, at least in the US. I would have to drive 45 minutes to get one, and that is really close, I can only imagine how far people may have to drive in rural America (I'm happily married mind you, so I will never have to abort).

And then many people are still religious and therefore don't believe in abortions because it's God's plan or because they believe in souls, and therefore aborting even a young fetus is almost akin to killing a full living creature.

All this said and I was in a different universe and got pregnant out of wedlock (it would be a pretty different universe), I am not sure if I could abort due to the emotional reason; but if I'm having sex enough with random guys to need an abortion, than it is a pretty different universe, so maybe I would be fine.

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It's not about that. It's about holding men accountable for their children, why would any man complain about providing for their own flesh? Also children do not survive on money alone. A woman who is raising your child is doing most of the emotional labor, most of the comforting, the teaching the nurturing etc.. I am convinced that the men complaining here simply do not have kids. My parents divorced and my dad always paid child support and visited me all the time (my parents even remarried only to divorce again lol). I am only so fortunate that my dad didn't see his supporting of me and my sister as some chore, even now as an adult my dad is still willing to help me financially (not that I need it) because he LOVES me as his child. Do y'all literally hate your children? Are you not ashamed of your despicable attitude towards them?

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Equal full reproductive, pregnancy, and all related rights for both genders sounds great in theory, but it is completely impractical until a time when biology between men and women in this area is nullified (AKA until artificial wombs are viable). Until that time we could encourage the state to take the male financial burden, push for advances on the male BC methods, the state to decriminalize abortions (where not already) and for all medical costs to be absorbed by the state (for both abortions AND births), and for advances in the medical area of abortion complications. I'm not opposed to any of those things.

It's a area that can be advanced, but Victim aspect here is really a victim of biological differences that are difficult to find ways to overcome.

A separate thing to say, baby trapping or false paternity where a individual has acted in bad faith and caused victims.

[–]SILENTSAM693 points4 points5 points 6 years ago (44 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Willow-girl2 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Well, I see no reason to take abortion off the table. It's a perfectly viable alternative, AFAIC.

There is not an exact equivalent for the male, unfortunately, unless we accept that men should have the right to compel a woman to abort against her will if he doesn't want the baby to be born. Most people would say this violates a woman's right to bodily autonomy, to be the one to decide what goes on inside her body. In practice it would be rather barbaric. I don't think we want to go down that road.

The good news is that it's really not that difficult to prevent pregnancy! A woman on birth control and a man using a condom probably have a risk that's a fraction of 1 percent, and even that can be mitigated by selecting a pro-choice partner who is committed to aborting in the event of an accident.

What men are REALLY complaining about here is that they're not free to dump a load into strangers of uncertain birth control status and get off scot-free if a pregnancy results. Cry me a river!

[–]SILENTSAM691 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]Willow-girl1 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I'm guessing you are about 14 years old. It's time to grow up. Sex is not just a fun recreational activity; it's also the thing that makes babies. If you're going to partake in it, you have to be prepared to accept the consequences. That goes for women as well as men.

The good news is that the consequences are actually fairly easy to avoid! Several forms of contraception are extremely reliable. Choosing a partner who is committed to getting an abortion in the event of a contraceptive failure also reduces your risk. Unfortunately these things require some prior planning and communication, as well as a judicious choice of partners -- factors often absent in alcohol-fueled encounters with strangers you just met at a party or bar.

As a last resort, you don't have to choose wisely or "keep it in your pants" if you simply avoid having sex that leads to ejaculation in or near a vagina. Have you kids never heard of a blowjob?! Fergawdsakes, it really isn't that difficult.

Quit whining and take responsibility for your actions and decisions.

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[–]Willow-girl2 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

But she does! Having a child is a consequence, and even having an abortion is a consequence. Generally you don't hear women whining about these things; they suck it up and deal with the situation one way or the other. Men are the ones who act like irresponsible children who are amazed and pissed that there are consequences to their actions.

Having drunken hook-ups with strangers is not mandatory. If you want to avoid risk, it may put some constraints on your behavior. You may have to select your sex partner a little more carefully or refrain from the acts that may lead to conception. (This applies equally to men and to women, especially women who are opposed to abortion.) SO WHAT? This is part of being an adult. Sex is fun, sure, but it CAN result in a pregnancy. That's life! Your argument isn't with me so much as it is with reality.

[–]SILENTSAM692 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Willow-girl2 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Again, you are arguing against abortions being allowed outside of a medical emergency.

How so? Just because a particular condition exists for one gender doesn't mean it automatically has to exist for both. I refer you again to the breastfeeding example. Only women can get pregnant, so only women can have abortions. The fact that there is no similar mechanism for men doesn't mean that we have to artificially constrain women to make things "equal."

If he made up his mind by having sex then so has she.

Why, no. The baby is inside her body and thus we allow her to terminate it if she so chooses (within certain boundaries set by laws, which vary from place to place). We do not allow men to terminate a baby inside someone else's body, and with good reason, IMO.

Men and women both make a decision, just at different points on the timeline. Men decide when they choose to ejaculate in or near a vagina, which always carried some risk, however slight, of pregnancy. Women decide when they find out they're pregnant and choose to sustain or terminate the pregnancy.

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Again, there is no good reason to take abortion off the table simply because a man can't have one. It's like saying that because men are unable to breastfeed, women shouldn't be allowed to do so, either.

Here's the problem with the "reproductive rights" you envision, i.e., "financial abortion." When a woman has an actual abortion, the result is "no baby." It doesn't result in a child that needs food and diapers and a free public education. There is no equivalent for a man that results in "no baby," short of men being able to force women to abort against their will, and I don't think we want to go there. The baby, once created (inside the womb) eventually grows into a being who is going to need sustenance, which begs the question, who is responsible to provide for it? I believe the parents of the child should be liable first and foremost, and society only if both parents are incapacitated.

[–]SILENTSAM691 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Again, I am not trying to take abortion off the table. You are the one giving the arguments against allowing abortions.

What I do not care for is financial rape. We see way too many forms of it in our society. If women are equal and can provide for themselves then they no longer have a right to a man's income.

Yes the parents should be responsible for the child. The problem is only women have the right to decide after conception if they will be a parent. They should both get to make that decision for themselves, and as I said the man should have a shorter window to make that choice as it may impact the womans choice.

If the woman feels she can or can not raise the child on her own that is her decision. She could also find another guy who may want to raise the child with her. In no way should she be able to decide for the guy of he will be a parent. Especially with accidental pregnancies with someone you are not in a relationship with.

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[–]nemma8831/F/UK INFP -t. Engaged-2 points-1 points0 points 6 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

Biology makes all the difference. The problem with Equality in male financial abortion is it is not an equivalent in scenario or outcome and would never be. An equivalent scenario is a man removing a fetus from his womb. The equivalent outcome includes the point there is never a child. There is a limited time window when an abortion can be done with the maximum safety, and that is not a large window that would allow time for legal documentation and everything to be in place, and even then there is risk to the carrier. Even to the point of bringing a wanted child by both parties to term it is not a equal process for both and again, can never be.

Women are equals, and they can work. If they decide to leave a man and take the child they should have made the decision to leave his financial support behind as well.

The woman is not financially supported by the man. It's a contribution to the upkeep of a child, but either way they are not going to do this because it would just push the burden into foster care or other state services instead. The men and women who are having these children we are debating are neither rich nor responsible people. 18 years of Child support doesn't stop irresponsible men from going in without a condom and the lack of means has never stopped irresponsible women from having children. It's cheaper to have that maintenance at the source than everything at mop up.

Men should have the right to choose if they want to be fathers.

That choice currently lies at intercourse. For men who never want to be fathers can have a vasectomy and use condoms to lower the risk. These are not super choices but they do exist, there are things men can do to control their own destiny in the case of becoming a father. Abortion isn't something that is risk or cost free, it's simply a choice only one sex gets, and the only one that can be used after conception. Again I would not be opposed to any of the previous things I mentioned but this isn't a easy thing to pick apart and build back up - It will eventually get there sometime but it is a mine field.

[–]SILENTSAM693 points4 points5 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Its seems the time for legal documents matters more than biology in your scenario. Which is why it should just be a right,and the legalities can easily be made a short one day issue. It isn't purely a financial decision for the man though,and shouldn't be taken as such.

Yes men should have a shorter window to make the decision as it may impact the womans decision, and she only has until 3 months to decide.

The women are financially supported by the men. Not simply the children. That said who ever has the children's supporting them while therein their care. I say the man can only see them on weekends then he should only financially support them on the weekends. Maybe primary care should be largely determined by who is more financially secure.

If men can only decide at intercourse,then why not women? Is equality too much to ask for?

[–]YveisGrey1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Reproductive rights are not a thing. Sex makes babies it's biology. The world owes no one a "right" to sex minus the babies. This is simply something people want to be a reality in the face of biological reality. Humans have been struggling with this conundrum for millenia but only in recent times are they so dense to actually think that such is something they "deserve". Presenting such as a right is akin to declaring it a right to eat 5,000 calories a day, never exercise and somehow never gain weight. Hey if you can eat that much and stay fit more power to you but it certainly isn't something the world owes you. Because of this mentality many children are caught in the middle of abusive situations and the rate of family dissolution is at an all time high. Men and women just need to own the fact that human sexuality serves a higher purpose than mere indulgence and self gratification and act responsibility it really is not that hard to avoid having a baby until you are ready, and one should take the act of sex more seriously considering how serious the consequences can be.

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[–]GiveMeABreak252 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

We fought to get default caregiver status? You’re delusional. That was thrust upon us the day we evolved into the birthers.

I have every idea what happens. I’m a child of divorce, a parent of divorce. Most women leave because they get no support from their husbands and are essentially doing all the work as well as finically contribution. And then all the sudden, dads want to be dads.

And the circumstances barely matter. Children more often default to their mothers for a reason. They know who cares for them.

I know at least two close friends whom the fathers of their children only worked jobs that paid cash to avoid paying support. My own ex husband never paid a dime and walked away from our child when she turned 18.

Sure there are men who want joint custody and should get it. No question. There are women who have no business having children. But neither of those things changes the rights of the person carrying the child to decided whether or not to carry a child.

Again, if you just want to force someone to have a kid, get a surrogate or adopt.

Men will never gain the right to someone else’s body. Period.

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Title	This is a Classic
Author	IcyHotRoad
Upvotes	410
Comments	429
Date	October 15, 2019 12:19 AM UTC (6 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/dhzqoz/this_is_a_classic/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/this-is-a-classic.290597 https://theredarchive.com/post/290597

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