If women were forced to marry beta males in the past, then why do they grieve for them today?

Perfect-Resist5478 · 2024-06-02T21:32:59+00:00

Are you attracted to everyone for whom you’d grieve? If your mom died, would you not be sad? Do you want to fuck her?

Sad_and_grossed_out · 2024-06-02T21:01:05+00:00

I never had such a golden view of the past. My grandfather stabbed my grandmother to death after beating her and their kids for years in the 80s. My aunt was divorced three times and died single declaring shed never marry again. My other aunt's husband cheated on her and knocked up his mistress and there was massive amount of drama around that with eventual divorce. A lot of my great grandparents never grew old together from death of disease and all that.

When exactly was the golden age of relationships?

MisterFunnyShoes · 2024-06-02T21:05:05+00:00

Men never had it easier. It was more difficult for men to get taken to the cleaners in divorce because divorce was incredibly more difficult/impossible in the past.

The reason these women appear to be mourning their husbands is because they are mourning their husbands. This doesn’t have much to do with young adult intersexual dynamics. It has to do with loss of a lifelong companion with whom one has spent decades of life with.

Nellylocheadbean · 2024-06-02T22:25:52+00:00

You don’t need to be attracted to someone to grieve. Young Women just want to get with a man she’s attracted to, just how men get with women they’re attracted to.

Men of today are expecting women to have sex with them in this life long relationship. It’s easier to do that when she’s sexually attracted to you. Unless you want a future dead bed room.

I think marriage was more about duty up until recent times so ppl didn’t get together for their own hedonism like today.

MistyMaisel · 2024-06-03T01:13:06+00:00

It is sort of likely that if they spent say 50 years together that attachment and love grew similar to that of say how I feel about my cat or best friend. That isn't to say they found that human attractive, desirable, or enjoyed the sex with them.

Also, and I'm telling you this is just broadly true, unless someone is a real known rotter, humans generally mourn the death of others. Even people we don't really know that well. You park me in any funeral even for folks I never met, I tend to end up weeping somewhere in there. It's just natural to most of us to mourn the loss of life. Even more so if we actually knew the person and liked some aspects of them.

Shit, some of the worst crying and sorrow I ever felt was when my two guinea pigs died. I didn't even like them that much especially towards the end. They were a real pain in the ass to care for, smelly, not very affectionate, just honestly the worst. But, I had dutifully cared for them for god like a decade and they represented a lot to me and I found myself really upset about it. And they were guinea pigs.

Professional_Chair28 · 2024-06-02T21:10:11+00:00

Because their entire life was wrapped up in this other person. Even if they didn’t like that person or enjoy their company, their life has significantly shifted by their sudden absence. The basic rhythms you grew accustomed to are now routine reminders of how alone are, and in some cases how much time energy and effort you wasted on someone and your possible regrets about that.

Demasii · 2024-06-02T21:33:23+00:00

Survivorship bias. Gray divorce is on the rise.

Proudvow · 2024-06-02T22:51:07+00:00

However, in the red pill, there is this narrative that men had it much easier in the older generations because women were forced or pressured into marrying men they were not attracted to, beta males.

That's not what the red pill says. That's a blue/black pill misinterpretation of what the red pill says.

Women are attracted to status. In the past, a woman's male equivalent had significantly more status than her. So despite the marriages being arranged there was still plausibly genuine attraction.

The problem now is that post-feminism beta males do not have more status than modern educated working women, so that avenue for sparking attraction is buried, but since the guys are beta (instead of alpha) they're not attractive in any other way either. Furthermore women get easy access to low risk encounters with alpha males now, further overshadowing the beta.

It's not that "women aren't forced to date betas anymore" it's that "betas aren't special anymore".

Lysa_Bell · 2024-06-03T03:45:04+00:00

Imagine you are poor and you buy yourself a super cheap car. It breaks down constantly but it's everything you got. You care for it and try to keep it going. You invest money and time into it. It's a pain in the ass and you hate it but you can't afford anything better. You know it sucks, everyone knows it sucks. You do drive it around for years though. You make memories in it. Do favours for loved ones with it. One day is completely gives up and you have to send it to the yard. Now you have no transportation anymore. You look back into the history with the car. It was a piece of shit - the doors wouldn't close properly and during winter you had to try and start it forever. It made you late a lot of times. Yet here you are - mourning the thing you made memories in, that did get you from a to b. You will never have a car with the same issues. You knew your way around it's problems. You brain keeps telling you it was a good time you had with that car. It did it's job. You tell people fondly about the times when you had to wear a raincoat inside because the window wouldn't shut properly.

It's sunken cost fallacy mixed with nostalgia. We all know the car sucked but it was all you had. Nobody would jump in to get you a new car. You had to work with what you've given.

You will mourn everything you spend enough time with. That had you somehow emotionally invested. It doesn't matter if you formed a bond from convenience or for whatever reason. As soon as you make memories and experiences with something or someone they will be part of your life. You might not even mourn them - just the times. Or maybe even who you were when you were with them. You were wild and the times were hard - but you had your car. You remember how you felt. You will mourn.

Siukslinis_acc · 2024-06-03T04:02:36+00:00

There could be grief because life has changed, you are now alone in the house, you got used to the presence of the other.

Also, sometimes even if you are not attracted to someone, over time one can grow fond of them. Even if it might be in a platonic way.

Lenovo_Driver · 2024-06-02T21:15:26+00:00

It’s almost like this alpha and beta nonsense is just shit men cling unto because they can warp the definitions to put themselves in the alpha category.

It’s how sexless red pilled men can be alpha because they are based and redpilled whilst happily married men with children are beta.

afk_row · 2024-06-02T21:01:48+00:00

Emotional Bonds and Attachment

Attachment Theory: Strong emotional bonds, known as attachments, can form over time, regardless of the initial circumstances. Shared experiences and mutual support foster deep connections.
Shared Life Experiences: Couples who have been together for decades often share significant life events, challenges, and achievements, leading to a deep sense of partnership and affection.

Societal and Cultural Context

Marriage Norms of the Past: While marriages were influenced by social, economic, and familial pressures, genuine affection and love often developed over time.
Changing Dynamics: Couples adapted to their roles and found ways to support and care for each other deeply.

Authentic Grief

Genuine Loss: Grief encompasses love, affection, and the loss of companionship, shared history, and future plans. It is a profound experience.
Public and Private Grief: Private grief experienced by widows strongly indicates the genuine emotional connection they had with their spouses.

Psychological Perspectives

Cognitive Dissonance and Rationalization: Individuals often rationalize their situations and come to appreciate and value their partners over time.
Positive Memories and Nostalgia: As people age, they focus on positive memories and the good times they had with their partners, amplifying feelings of love and loss.

EulenWatcher · 2024-06-02T21:37:47+00:00

I think you're confusing the times when women didn't have much legal or social power and their marriages were decided largely by their families and the times of your grandparents.

My grandma lived under pretty strict social rules, but she still was the one to choose her husband. She was considered the lucky one, because grandad didn't drink, beat or cheat on her and her was working. Which is a really low bar by modern standards, sure, but they were a good couple and treated each other well. Now historically our tribes did some...kidnapping of brides and in this case, of course, these girls and women didn't have much of a choice. Do you see a difference?

John_Oakman · 2024-06-02T21:31:58+00:00

It's a collective loss of innocence, the realization that all men/males have ulterior motives, and that their motivations at the end of the day are materialistic/worldly in nature.

The truth that there's always a pound of flesh [in any relationship] to be paid is painful to know.

Cethlinnstooth · 2024-06-02T21:53:55+00:00

You don't need to lust after or even romantically love or practically need someone to grieve after they die. Grief is about loss but it isn't even just about that occasion of loss because one instance of grief tends to be connected in a mood and theme dependent network to many other instances of loss and grief.

I'm waiting for my father to die. I hate the old bastard and death's too good for him. I'm still going to be a mess over it. Somehow even to the end humans hold on to the memory of having had hope that things would be different to how they are, the memory of old needs unfulfilled but well the end is the end and it's a toting up of the loss of what never could have been but was wanted as well as the loss of what actually was. And that's just one of the many many dynamics around grief. There's grieving the loss of someone who shared an experience with you. There's grieving the loss of someone who you had future plans with. There's grieving the loss of someone who matters to other people who matter to you.

There's a lot of ways to grieve the loss of someone. A whole lot of ways. And you end up with your own personal cocktail of grief to deal with.

Why and how are they grieving their husbands? You don't know the details and the details are going to be different for each of them. I doubt they have the sort of relationship to a much younger relative who is someone like you where they would each sit down for three or four hours talking about the specific nature of the massive head fuck that losing their husband was.

You're never going to know. It's not a part of their lives you are granted admission to. And that's why you're asking here. But we don't even know them so how could we say? If we knew them each personally we'd probably be able to guess better what each one is thinking than you can. Because you don't know relationships and you don't know grief.

shadowrangerfs · 2024-06-02T22:59:02+00:00

Women weren't always forced to marry men they weren't attracted to. It was more that they didn't have the opportunity to marry the man they loved the most. Sometimes it was the guy they liked second most because he was the better provider.

Also, you can grow to care for and even love the person they married.

Sillysheila · 2024-06-03T00:02:30+00:00

I honestly think everyone who gets married or has a girlfriend can’t be an alpha 100% of the way. I mean, if you look at so called “alpha” traits, there’s no way that such a person with all these traits 24/7 could be in a healthy good relationship. I agree more with the people that say men who wish to have relationships at some point need a mix of “alpha” and “beta”. The people who have a complete lack of “alpha” traits might struggle for a few different reasons, but if your eventual goal is having a girlfriend or wife she won’t be happy with you if you’re 100% an alpha either.

Equivalent-Cat5414 · 2024-06-02T21:10:01+00:00

Well one, most men (and women of course) were more attractive back then than now simply because hardly anyone was overweight like many are now. Two, men on average had better grooming and dressing habits than they do now and married before they showed any signs of aging like balding, grey hair, wrinkles, etc. but when we women grow old with a man we’re committed to,most of us don’t care that he’s changing in appearance like we also do.

goo_wak_jai · 2024-06-02T21:54:52+00:00

I think human language is generally kind of vague--even when using words that, on paper, is pretty cut and dry. In verbal conversations, the same words that are cut and dry tend to take on these alternate meanings even if the person using those words don't intend to portray it that way.

When we say that we grieve for someone, the conventional understanding is that we're actually grieving about the object (the person who died), not the idea of the object. In reality, we're grieving about the idea of someone, not the actual object--as the object is...no longer present. I know it sounds counterintuitive but when you reminisce about the past--is it the past that you miss? Or is the things that was done by someone that made you feel a certain way that you miss? I would venture to say that's it's the latter, more than the former.

The act of grieving is a real thing. There's no doubt that the behavior itself as it manifests is real. What they are grieving about is the gray area. It could be that the individual is grieving over an idea that's totally not based on reality. Or it could be a mix of a false idea mixed in with the feelings of the idea, and again, not so much about the physical vessel that once represented Bob or Sally.

As a side note that's food for thought--in acting classes, do you know how it is taught to budding actors/actresses-in-training how to willfully manifest crying on a film set? They teach these newbies to think of an idea that saddens them greatly--to the point of crying--and focus in on that while still holding onto their character on set. That's an incredibly hard thing to do--to both envision in their minds eye that sad event yet hold character on a film set. So I ask you, are your aunts grieving over your uncles--the physical object? Or are they grieving over the idea and feelings of them?

NotReallyTired_ · 2024-06-02T22:00:39+00:00

From I know about my parents and grandparents generations, and how they handled marriages and relationships. Women weren't exactly forced or pressured into marrying men they weren't attracted to in the past for meal tickets. There were huge incentives to get married due to economic and financial circumstances back in the day, where it was better than staying single.

Most couples who stays married until death by old age, actually do give a fuck about each other despite redpill and internet speculations. Like I get it, but it's very real, they really loved their husbands.

SurelyWoo · 2024-06-02T23:34:02+00:00

When a long-term partner dies, a part of you dies. I mean this more than just metaphorically. During the relationship each person specializes in complimentary roles so that they begin to function more like a single entity. This also applies to other relationships: my dog took on the role of maintaining a daily routine--when to get out of bed, when to go for a walk, etc. So, losing a partner in a relationship is very much like losing a part of yourself, and we experience it as an emptiness created by their removal.

superlurkage · 2024-06-03T00:23:21+00:00

I guess you have the privilege of not understanding what lack of autonomy is

Perhaps you wouldn’t mind someone else choosing who you marry or what job you will have or where and who you will live with

CraftyCooler · 2024-06-03T05:22:51+00:00

They were not forced. People reaching their 70s got married in late 70s early 80s. Housing was much more affordable back then in the west so it was even easier for a women to live as a single person or with some roommate. My dad got offer to move to SoCal in the 80s, he was totally able to buy a house even though he was an immigrant barely speaking english.

Specialist_Bunch9735 · 2024-06-03T07:48:48+00:00

Young women nowadays want only 6'5 jocks, models or prettyboys. The women back back in the past didn't have freedom, so they were forced to be attracted to average men.

Weekly-Vacation-6929 · 2024-06-02T21:01:05+00:00

Stockhold syndrome

floridorito · 2024-06-02T21:11:03+00:00

What even is this post. Why do you assume those couples were forced to marry each other? Who was forcing anyone to marry 30 or 40 years ago? Did your aunts and uncles not marry for love?

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adamandsteveandeve · 2024-06-03T01:41:12+00:00

Maybe it’s bc their husband just died? How would grieving that not be anything but normal?

obviousredflag · 2024-06-03T10:55:12+00:00

Because marrying a beta male doesn't mean women can't love them deeply. It doesn't mean the relationship is sexless and it doesn't mean the woman doesn't truly desire that man.

Brilliant_Island8498 · 2024-06-03T11:21:35+00:00

Yeah because beta males ain’t bad people if they die we gonna cry. But like they aren’t attractive

The treat women nicely, of course you would be sad a person who treated you good died

Pola_Lita · 2024-06-03T11:31:36+00:00

It's possible to love someone even though your own needs aren't part of the relationship.

This goes from possible to likely when you are raised to believe that's the way it ought to be.

harmonica2 · 2024-06-04T08:01:59+00:00

Thanks for the input everyone. Well it seems a lot of guys think that women think it's so horrible being married to a beta male but if the women see it as being connected to someone deeply for decades and will mourn them when they die, is it really that bad therefore?

MelodicCrow2264 · 2024-06-02T20:58:26+00:00

They’re grieving because their meal ticket/mechanic/handyman/bodyguard etc is gone.

Lesson 1: Men love women. Women love what men can do for them.

DontBeFat1 · 2024-06-02T23:09:53+00:00

The baseless and feminist propaganda that most women historically were forced into unloved marriages and treated like chattel slaves is just that; a baseless, feminist, revisionist take.

MrSaturn33 · 2024-06-02T21:12:50+00:00

[permanently deleted]

Happiness-happppy · 2024-06-03T01:01:22+00:00

People didn’t have a concept called beta male or alpha male. These are modern terms based on social media and lack of parent figures (capitalism and so on).

I lived in a country where a middle aged man with a mustache who is average in looks can be deemed as very desirable. The beauty standards of the past weren’t extreme and people had reason and weren’t exposed to porn and media to our level today.

Unlike what many will tell you humans function the best in scarcity. Too much abundance of choice deludes the mind into viewing people as products rather than humans. It makes us take people more seriously.

Men and women aren’t perfect. People understood that they are human and as a human neither party are perfect or ever will be perfect.

The reality is my friend you will hear conflicting advice in many of these reddit forums and social media platforms but only one thing remains true statistically at least which is today people are struggling in relationships. People are lonely more than ever. And the divorce rates are high also. We can claim the past was bad or horrible but that is irrelevant to the current situation. We need to accept the fact whatever system we have today is making us miserable.

I for one believe the past was indeed better. Not perfect but better. People had more decency and religious values and things were easier. This can be proven quite easily. Go ask any boomer and see how easy it was to meet someone and be taken seriously compared to today at least. Remember it wasn’t perfect but more reasonable.

PMmeareasontolive · 2024-06-03T03:56:39+00:00

Things were different in the old days. There wasn't social media telling you you should be happy every single moment and living your best life every single day. Like my old relatives were perfectly content (as far as I know) having factory jobs and raising a family in a small suburban house. There wasn't much dreamt about beyond that. For people nowadays that kind of job and life would be stifling boredom.

People seemed more complacent about their place in the hierarchy back then if they could have some semblance of a middle class life. Now the middle class is shrinking (they tell me), companies aren't loyal to their workers, and one can "achieve one's dreams" more readily as an individual than as part of some other unit.

Salt_Alternative_86 · 2024-06-02T21:19:32+00:00

At 70+, they won't get replacements...

stats135 · 2024-06-02T21:19:37+00:00

However, in the red pill, there is this narrative that men had it much easier in the older generations because women were forced or pressured into marrying men they were not attracted to, beta males.

No.

That is a feminist viewpoint. Only feminists think of the past as a time where women were "forced" into anything. Men and women in the past were simply educated differently and lived in a different society.

However, if this true, is the grieving they do, real, or are they just most likely putting on a show, if the majority of women were forced to marry men they were not attracted to?

Grief has nothing to do with attraction. I'd grieved for a lot of family members, and I've never been attracted to anyone of them.

szclimber · 2024-06-02T21:48:54+00:00

It's an end of an era and a reminder of mortality. Eventually everything will pass into nothing. We can all grieve for this.

Agile-Explanation263 · 2024-06-03T00:21:14+00:00

They don't grieve them, they just want the "alpha" men they lust after to be slightly more controlable/tameable.

giveuporfindaway · 2024-06-03T01:39:36+00:00

Women genuinely pair bond with men when they are virgins in arranged marriages. It does not matter if there wasn't initial raw attraction. Of course this argument isn't persuasive because it's the equivalent of getting a child to temporarily swallow awful tasting medicine. Women cannot get beyond the gag reflex but in the past they were forced to.

Title	If women were forced to marry beta males in the past, then why do they grieve for them today?
Author	harmonica2
Upvotes	2
Comments	113
Date	June 2, 2024 8:53 PM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1d6n52r/if_women_were_forced_to_marry_beta_males_in_the/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/if-women-were-forced-to-marry-beta-males-in-the.1520362 https://theredarchive.com/post/1520362

Comments

Emotional Bonds and Attachment

Societal and Cultural Context

Authentic Grief

Psychological Perspectives