Feminist here...I need help.

EJSpurrell · 2014-06-16T12:08:55+00:00

It seems like you've thought about this a lot. For what it's worth, I think you'll find that many here agree with you on your sticking points, but probably aren't impressed about associating with radical feminism. There's a lot of misinformation on both sides of the coin about what feminism is and does for women in my opinion.

But I applaud you for reaching out like this.

Being a single father of a teenage daughter, I hope to guide her into becoming an independent, strong and responsible young woman, and I have seen the effect that some douchebags have had on her self-esteem. She understands that men like that are the exception, not the rule, and I am proud of her for it. She likes the idea of feminism, but not the organization of it.

She knows my story as well. How I was used, abused and lied to by someone I thought I loved. How she manipulated me and everyone connected to me and ruined my life out of spite because I finally decided to take a stand. My daughter saw first-hand how hard it was for me to get over it and understand that women like her were again, the exception and not the rule.

I firmly believe that we can all just be people. I lead by example by judging a person based on their character and not by the color of their skin or shape of their genitals. I have passed this on to my daughter, in hopes that she can carry it on to her children, should she choose to have them.

I take issue with many sorts of feminism, but rarely, if ever, the individuals within them. I despise misogyny as much as I do misandry. I support the rights of men and boys every bit as much as I do the rights of women and girls.

Admittedly, I haven't read much from feminist scholars with the exception of Christina Hoff Summers. But I do have feminist friends. Men and women caring about the rights of women doesn't make me feel threatened at all. But I have, on a few ocassions, been targetted for supporting certain aspects of the men's rights movement, and it troubles me greatly. Specifically the areas in which I have been personally affected the most, in terms of domestic violence and father's rights.

I don't for a moment believe that feminism and men's rights are incompatible. Rather, I view both as two sides of the same coin. They don't necessarily have to work together, but they shouldn't work against each other, either.

There are douchebags in every group. They exist under every label. I applaude you for realizing that men as a group aren't hateful oppressors, but simply individuals trying like every other individual to make their way through life. Some men/women/non-binary are assholes. Most are not. We can only judge based on what we can see and hear on an individual, person-to-person basis. If we pass judgement on entire class, whether it be women, men, feminist or MRA, we're no better than the bigots of our parents generation.

Some may not agree with me here. Some may. But that's the beauty of individuality.

jcea_ · 2014-06-16T13:44:47+00:00

I just want to say that being strong as a women does not require being a radical feminist.

I'm not going to try to sell you on the MRM but I would like you to watch one MRM woman not just because of her message but I want you to listen to how powerful she sounds and realize that she is one of the louder voices in the MRM and she sure is hell is not dainty flower. Also this particular talk is about something you might be interested in which is personhood over women hood.

Alison Tiemen:Mother of Threat Narrative Girl Parts

burningbezier · 2014-06-16T15:27:38+00:00

Having looked at your profile, I also think that your perspective might be skewed because of your work as a dominatrix (assuming that wasn't bullshit) - link.

I'm very much in love with him but sometimes I get so afraid that he's just a cheating, lying [insert stereotype here] that I'll have to run off into a lesbian separatist community (I'm not kidding).

Contrast this with...

Professional Dominatrix here. You wouldn't believe how many "normal" men with wife and kids want to consume a woman's fecal matter.

I wonder does the first perspective come from the fact that you personally profit from the deceit of men with "wife and kids"?

How do you reconcile your role as a radical feminist with your work in the sex trade, that is to say, profiting from the very same cheating lying men you're afraid your boyfriend is?

girlwriteswhat · 2014-06-16T14:43:00+00:00

Maybe reach out to Elly Tams (Quiet Riot Girl), a former radical feminist with, I think, a PhD in Women's/Gender Studies.

She's a gender abolitionist as far as I can tell, but parted ways with feminism a couple of years ago.

Here's her story about "leaving the sisterhood" Her blog is here, and I'm sure you can contact her through it.

While /r/MensRights is a good place to start, you'll likely find Elly to be able to relate to your issues and questioning very directly, given your thoughts on gender abolitionism and your histories as radical feminists.

Hope this helps.

TRPACC · 2014-06-16T11:19:20+00:00

You should leave the movement that teaches its followers to see men as the enemy and find your strength somewhere else.

I'm finding meditation, spirituality and acceptance are good (not organised religion).

rocelot7 · 2014-06-16T10:48:18+00:00

I'm being sincere here, whether you believe me or not; enjoy your existential crisis.

2014-06-16T15:16:50+00:00

I invite you to participate. I invite you to participate like crazy.

But, if you want to sit back and just browse for a bunch of weeks I think our message might sink in.

For one, no one hear really cares about dainty and precious. But we also don't care about 'wild woman' either. This is not a character trait that we worry about. All are welcome.

Yes we focus more on mens rights and mens issues then anything else. No, we don't want to be the goto place for womans issues. But if you look closely you will find that underneath the surface we are not trying to achieve victory, we are trying to achieve equality.

We don't desire that our children have sole custody of bad mothers, but we will not endorse a bad father to have sole custody either. We want equal custody. On the planet that we live on, we want kids to spend as close to 50/50 of there time with each parent - we think child support should reflect this.

DougDante · 2014-06-16T12:01:08+00:00

Does anyone else hate that we can't all just be people, judged individually, without regard to our bodies?

Different things are more important to different people. Personally, I dislike it when innocent victims of crime suffer further from illegal discrimination based on their gender or sexual orientation, or how their voices are silenced in feminist spaces. If you'd like to help, please consider responding to this action opportunity (or any other):

http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/25m8ym/action_opportunity_tell_the_usdojoig_that_usdoj/

SarcastiCock · 2014-06-16T10:13:10+00:00

You may not want to choose gender roles for yourself, but why abolish them for everyone? That seems anti-choice and lacking in diversity.

YetAnotherCommenter · 2014-06-16T13:38:01+00:00

Does anyone else hate that we can't all just be people, judged individually, without regard to our bodies?

I think everyone here wishes that people would be judged according to their individual character rather than their biology.

Gender roles (i.e. the stuff you're "expected" to do just because of a biological quirk) absolutely suck. The Men's Human Rights Movement absolutely agrees here. Why, JUST because someone is a woman, should she want to spend her entire life as a baby-incubating housewife? I mean sure, if she WANTS to, that's okay, but why should she be expected to and shamed for not living up to those expectations?

The same applies to men. Sure, if a man WANTS to live up to a gender-traditional aspiration that's fine, but why should men be expected to and shamed for not living up to such an aspiration?

Individuals should be judged not by their sex organs but rather by the content of their character.

Whilst I do think gender tendencies exist (i.e. in general, most people will skew gender-typical more than gender-atypical to at least some degree), on an ethical level that's irrelevant. You don't have to be gender-compliant to be a good person, and what matters most is that you be a good person.

HadMattress · 2014-06-16T16:41:25+00:00

All men are enemies.

I'd expect that your father, who sounds like a really decent man, would be ashamed of your beliefs.

You sound like you need therapy not radical feminism.

Arakin · 2014-06-16T13:56:29+00:00

Here's the problem.

Feminism, at its core, is good. Equality is good. No one is going to debate you on that. I believe in that goal.

So where feminism attempts to equalize things, I'm all in favor of it. Women can't vote? Fuck yeah feminism. Women can't join the army? Fuck yeah feminism. Women can't run for political office? Fuck yeah feminism. If these were problems in our world, I'd support the fuck out of feminism. I really would. The problem? These problems don't exist.

Women are equal to, if not more so (e.g. Animal Farm), men. You can vote. You can do whatever the hell you want as a woman and the State will not stop you.

So what is feminism for these days? Changing people, culture, society. That's difficult enough; any minority can tell you that racism has not yet died. But instead of amicably working within the system to change its foundation, feminism has gone the harpy route: yell, yell, yell some more until you're heard, and if you're not listened to, yell, yell, and yell some more.

"RAPE CULTURE! INTERNALIZED MISOGYNY! #YESALLWOMEN! PATRIARCHY"

I'm sure you've heard these buzzwords before, oft blogged, touted, screamed at the world. It seems to be feminism's perspective that simply yelling and getting the message out is all you need. Evidence, statistics, logic... everything key to changing cultural perceptions is thrown out the window and left to starve. What's left? An emotional appeal.

That might just be the absolutely shittiest way to go about this. You say you "feel" as if your loving boyfriend is the enemy. That you "feel" you might be trans. That you "feel" you should run away to a lesbian separatist community.

See what feminism has done for you? Has it changed your life for the better? Do you feel like a stronger woman because you feel as if you can't trust those around you, yet you "connect to men very well on a personal level, find them to be loyal and devoted"?

This is what feminism is doing. It's poisoning our women and our men. It's creating division, strife, social stigma to get what it wants. "You're not a feminist! YOU MUST BE A TERRIBLE PERSON!"

But that was a pointless diatribe. Point is, disregard the radical feminist community. It's clearly done no good for you.

Funcuz · 2014-06-16T13:25:51+00:00

Well, I'll just cut to the chase here : Your problem is radical feminism.

Now, I know what you're thinking but I'm not going to sit here trying to convince you that the MRM is the answer. Obviously it's not because, among other things, it doesn't deal with anything at all that relates to you in any direct sense.

What I mean is that there's a reason feminism is so hated around here. It has nothing to do with the vaunted tenets of the movement. On the contrary, if we actually thought that they believed in any of that then this movement probably wouldn't exist.

No, unfortunately, the problem is that feminism as it exists today is run by the radicals and the radicals definitely have a problem with men. They say it's only "some men" but they'll only say that if you push them on the matter. Anyway, the point is that it's poison and by now you should recognize that much.

The way to not think about how the world looks at you is to forget about the rest of the world. In other words, forget about feminism, definitely forget about radical feminism (it's poison one way or another) and forget about the MRM. Be independent. That means really be independent...like not right-wing, not left-wing, not libertarian, communist, not anarchist, not Green,...none of that shit. Just throw it all out the window. That's what lead me to this place but your path may lead you to a different destination.

Remerez · 2014-06-16T13:31:05+00:00

The best advise I was ever given is to not assume anything of a person based on what they look like. Every person's potential and ability is on a case by case basis. Our brains seek patterns and in doing so we take the actions of individuals and assume all similar individuals do the same. whenever I hear somebody say " All men are" or " All women are like" I absolutely know they are wrong.

aquaventure · 2014-06-16T13:59:40+00:00

You asked which actresses portrayed men in a similar fashion to Danny devito, and I answered. Hardly derailing the conversation. To put it another way: how many short and fat males are there that are recognizable actors? Or who aren't sweet grandfatherly types? Not many.

Prof_Acorn · 2014-06-16T15:58:03+00:00

/r/GenderEgalitarian might be a little more balanced, if that's what you're looking for.

One of the things that bothers me most with radical feminism is how everything gentle and compassionate is linked with the "feminine" and everything confident and rational and powerful is linked with "masculine". Then from these definitions all males are signified as hypermasculine and representative of the patriarchy. It all feels quite objectifying, reductionist, and essentialist.

The Gender Egalitarian side of things is more balanced.

Unconfidence · 2014-06-16T16:14:41+00:00

I'm just dropping in to say that I've read this entire thread and give everyone a big thumbs up. The stuff in this thread is the real meat of the gender discourse in this society, and these debates need to be televised. It's great to hear some more moderate MRA voices, and also great to hear a radical open to the prospect of synthesis. Keep it up.

jpflathead · 2014-06-16T16:51:47+00:00

You were raised by an awesome single father who fought tooth and nail to gain custody and who taught you to be the strong awesome woman you are ...

and you became not just a feminist but a radical feminist?

Well, happy father's day.

not_just_amwac · 2014-06-16T10:15:54+00:00

Does anyone else hate that we can't all just be people, judged individually, without regard to our bodies?

Yes, I do.

unbannable9412 · 2014-06-16T14:29:27+00:00

Usually I go on Reddit and read about men who have been married for decades wax poetic on their deep love for their spouses and that balances me out. Then I think about how often my opinions are dismissed, how inaccessible certain parts of society are to me, dating men with no sex drive because they're addicted to porn, being raped, and then the guy who tried to kill me last year.

Now imagine that these things happened to you and if you told anyone or tried to openly lament such things you were reprimanded for merely doing so, told your suffering doesn't matter, or even if you're really unlucky that you are somehow lucky to have gone through that.

In this hypothetical, welcome to being a man.

Commenter4 · 2014-06-16T14:56:21+00:00

then the guy who tried to kill me last year.

Just to be clear, and no disrespect, but a psychopath tried to kill you. Not a man. The difference is important, and probably the one thing radical feminism does most dangerously: it asks you to pin all negative characteristics of 50% of the population to the fact that they're men, even though 'male' as a demographic has absolutely nothing to do with anything. There are kind men, violent men, saintly men, and evil men, who are all these things because of their choices, not because they're male.

K-Li · 2014-06-16T12:22:28+00:00

Feminism, especially in its more radical flavors, is inherently seductive. The 'strength' you see in it is a desire for agency, which is a fine thing. Agency has a price, though, and the movement has become twisted over the years by its unwillingness to recognize and pay that price. The price of agency is safety, and this is just as true at the individual level as it is on the societal level. You can make dissidence vanish and create a facade of perfect order, but it takes a police state to make it happen; in the same way you can be safe all your life if you live in a fortress, never leave, and obey your minders in all things.

The old feudal social contract was born in a different age, where a long life was a rare thing, and the threat of violence, be it random, institutional(war), or whatever, was omnipresent. In this context, it makes sense for men to do the fighting and the working, and for women to keep the books, the house, and the children. But we no longer live in such a time, at least in the US. This kind of contact is no longer valuable, and it is breaking down.

The modern expression of radical feminism is a desire for absolute freedom, paired with freedom from consequences. All the vitriol, all the hatred, all the mental gymnastics comes from the unwillingness to recognize and accept that the world is not a safe place.

eDgEIN708 · 2014-06-16T11:49:06+00:00

Does anyone else hate that we can't all just be people, judged individually, without regard to our bodies?

Holy fuck, do I ever.

At the end of the day, I'm essentially an egalitarian, it's just that while feminism has been a tremendous force for good in the past, what it is today, in my opinion and in general, is not "also helping men" as they claim. That's why I hang around here - to speak out for my gender because there's already a group out there who speaks out for the other one. Feminism isn't evil - it's done so many good things - but it certainly doesn't seem interested in helping men.

You sound like you're exactly the kind of feminist I like - the kind who understands that equality doesn't just mean equal rights, but also equal responsibility. Everyone should be given the same opportunities, everyone should treat everyone the same way, no one should be looked at sideways because of what they have between their legs for loving to spend time raising their children at home or loving to work on cars or loving to dress a certain way.

The only thing I disagree with you on, and even then I believe you didn't actually mean it and were saying it for emphasis, is when you say that you wish gender and sex didn't exist. I don't wish that they didn't exist, but rather that they only mattered about as much as, for example, the colour of a person's eyes. I sincerely hope that when my son has children and people my age are the ones in government that they can really, honestly grow up knowing that whoever they want to be, they can do so without having to worry about what other people think about it.

And that's the biggest part of it for me. I'd spent so much of my life caught up in worrying about what other people thought of me, and so much has changed for the better since I got over that. Everyone deserves to be able to be who they are without having to worry about 'what people will think'.

Anyway, thank you for sharing your thoughts! I do indeed hate that we all can't just be people. I hope to see the day when the ties between what a person wants to do or be and what a person has between their legs is severed and everyone is freed from the gender roles society shoves down our throats.

Lobstermansunion · 2014-06-16T11:40:07+00:00

ANY philosophy, feminism or not, that teaches you to hate seeks to harm you.

I am a non-traditional male. I am also very strong and accomplished in life. I've been able to accomplish all that without subscribing to an ideology of hate.

I know many strong women who are not shrinking violets, and none of them want anything to do with radical feminism.

You need to find role models in your life, be they real, from history, or from fictional tales who are strong & non-conforming in a positive way.

SomeGuy58439 · 2014-06-16T16:36:16+00:00

Guessing you might find /r/FeMRADebates interesting.

2014-06-16T16:41:58+00:00

If you have to have a philosophy of some sort, the only one I know of that comes as close as possible to treating people like just people without some attempt to deny reality is Theravada Buddhism.

The thing is though that biology, psychology, and society are not totally independent things the way some people want to think they are. Everything isn't socially constructed. There are certain roles that are enforced by biology (women can't get women pregnant, men can't get pregnant, etc) and a lot of psychological and social stuff has emerged from that. (It wasn't just decided at random or something.)

That doesn't mean that modern high tech society has to resemble subsistence agricultural societies, but there are still biological constraints in place that affect and make people different psychologically and socially.

We can have the same degree of concern for everyone but we can't make everyone exactly the same. That's ok though because the latter isn't really necessary.

guywithaccount · 2014-06-16T17:45:26+00:00

I'm feeling like my loving boyfriend is the enemy. There is no balance. It's all or nothing. All men are enemies. But how could this be when so many of them are much more sensitive than I am? I'm very much in love with him but sometimes I get so afraid that he's just a cheating, lying [insert stereotype here] that I'll have to run off into a lesbian separatist community (I'm not kidding).

Patriarchy is an illusion, a bad model created by cherry-picking and exaggerating certain views of society while ignoring others. There is no grand male conspiracy to oppress you and men are not as dominant as you've been led to believe. Both men and women have problems stemming from rigid gender roles that have been forced on them and neither sex is "the enemy".

I suggest that you put some distance between yourself and radical feminism. We all look to those around us to confirm our psychological reality. The more you surround yourself with people who hate men and blame patriarchy for everything, the more you're going to accept that mindset. This is probably what's making you feel like you hate your boyfriend and you need to run off and be a political lesbian.

TacticusThrowaway · 2014-06-16T19:17:55+00:00

Then I think about how often my opinions are dismissed,

Wait a second. You think men have it much better? You yourself said there are traditionalist gender roles for men too, right?

how inaccessible certain parts of society are to me,

Try being a dude trying to get help for your rape or abuse.

dating men with no sex drive because they're addicted to porn,

I don't see how this is a gendered issue. What would you do to fix it, abolish porn?

being raped,

Again, not a gendered issue. Trust me.

and then the guy who tried to kill me last year.

Men are more likely to be murder victims than women, so, again, not just a problem for women.

Certainly men feel this way about society's taboo of men showing emotion, not being seen as fit parents, and navigating the world being accused of being inherently sexual predators and things like that.

You missed "being expected to sacrifice their lives at the drop of a hat to protect others and society". And, of course, the erasure of their victimhood.

Which you've actually done yourself, a little. I know it wasn't on purpose, but...

It helps to pin these problems on sociopathic elites and such creating divisiveness in the same way white and black slaves were pitted against each other.

Or pressures on human social development that made it a bad idea to let your primary babymakers risk their lives to support the tribe.

How do you feel about the fact that feminists predominantly describe rape and abuse as "violence against women (by men)"? Do you feel that it contributes to erasure of male (and some female) victims? What about the laws that assume F>M domestic violence is just a woman defending herself? Do you think feminism, with its strong influence in that sphere, may have contributed? How about feminists who actively try to silence men and women who talk about men's issues, up to and including breaking the law?

judgezilla · 2014-06-16T16:02:08+00:00

Guys, this lady Comes From a family with history of mental illness, is a self proclaimed a high functioning autistic, and said this.

"Yep, on drugs I realized the secret cabal of psychonauts have historically not included many women."

She claims to been poisoned, yet no legal action was taken. I don't want to discredit her views or arguments, but when a person starts referencing drug induced hallucinations i tend to think the conversation is over

Meistermalkav · 2014-06-16T14:26:21+00:00

You are a person.

As much as we could do awesome things, we also have to realize that awesome things are not the norm.

If I have a daughter, and she decides to go for soccer and MMA, I will love her just as much as if she goes for pink and being the perfect hausfrau.

Same with my boy, who could turn out gay as they come, or a pot bellied horn dog.

That is my stance as a male rights activist, and I care about that. Judgement on these gender roles is wrong, yes. But why hate the gender roles for that?

Why not hate those that judge the gender roles for that?

I am just as quick at calling a radiocal feminist out to be a gender policing sexually immature lump of shit for using the words real men as I am for a man calling a woman a slut.

seenloitering · 2014-06-16T13:07:15+00:00

I would guess that the difficulty you're experiencing is a conflict between feeling masculine-social and being female-bodied. On the one hand, as a female-bodied person you feel targeted by men and resent them, even loath them for it. On the other hand, because you are masculine-social, you feel that you are the very thing you resent as a feminine-bodied person; that is, a masculine person.

Something to keep in mind is that you are no different than the men you resent. Your instinct here, that the masculine-social you is no different than they, and no different than the enemy painted by radical feminists, is precisely correct, except that many of those men are actually less masculine-social than you are. So, when you feel a general anxiety toward men, or male-bodied persons, or masculinity in general, you are making the same mistake you wish people would stop making with regard to you. Masculinity is not the source of your troubles. So a good place to start is to let go of those radical feminist biases. They are a mistake: men are not the enemy, nor is masculinity, nor some bad-masculinity. Every bad thing that has happened to you has happened to a male-bodied person at the hands of a female-bodied person.

Here's the logic in short. If our genders are performances that do not necessarily align with our bodies, then when you fear men, you are not fearing male-bodied persons, but masculine performing persons, of which you are one. So ask yourself this question: are you necessarily the type of person who has committed all these bad acts you've experienced, or are you not? If no, then you are misplacing your angst when you hold it against other masculine people.

MRSlacktivist · 2014-06-16T15:31:42+00:00

In regards to Feminism causing hateful thoughts against men, I've noticed this kind of thing happen with other similar things. It comes from being barraged with biased information. If someone is constantly watching Fox News, they'll have a similar outlook towards liberals. Watch MSNBC and it'll happen against conservatives. Stay on /r/TumblrInAction or /r/MensRights and you'll hate Feminists. /r/theredpill and you'll hate women. Going too deep into radical Feminism will make you hate men. Even if none of them are lying, they're all skewing reality. When you get too involved in one biased outlook on reality it'll start to affect you negatively. I can tell you have a good head on your shoulders because you're consciously resisting it, but the only way to stop those invasive thoughts is to withdraw from the source.

I know this from my own personal experience. Back when Bush was in office, I kept up on the news, read all the articles and blogs and opinion and by the end of it I was frothing at the mouth with hatred for him and anyone who voted for him. I realized that anger is addictive and, even though my reasons for hating him were legitimate, it was still making me miserable. I stopped watching the news all together and I don't keep up on politics and I feel a lot happier now.

Theophagist · 2014-06-16T16:34:46+00:00

hate misogyny, and I've met some dyed-in-the-wool misogynists (see above: sociopath who tried to kill me).

Here's your first problem. Misogyny is a boogie man. It is not a tangible thing to be fought. Very few people hate all women and hate femininity except, as you said, sociopaths and people with mental disorders. Misogyny is a non issue.

Misogyny and in particular, Institutionalized Misogyny^TM is threat narrative, and as a "feminist" you've been fed a whole lot of that. It's how the movement has survived and thrived in the first world where women enjoy great privilege.

Make no mistake. Feminism is a hate movement. It isn't about Susan B. Anthony's suffragettes. The women's suffrage movement was more of a plebs vs. the elite issue than a women's issue anyhow. So what's left?

2nd wave feminism of the 60s, spearheaded by known Marxists using the basic Marxist idea that society consists of an oppressed class and an oppressive class. 3rd wave is the book-cooking, 1-in-4 #yesallwomen teach men not to rape claptrap that we all know and love. What can you get from these movements? What will they do for women in the first world? What can they do that real humanitarian movements can't do in the 3rd world?

As a clearly rational human being you'll soon discover that to support feminism is to support a useless, wasteful hate group. You can love men and be a feminist just as well as you can love Palestinians and be an Israeli leader.

holzy444 · 2014-06-16T14:37:11+00:00

By associating with any group you are condoning their behavior. It sounds like you're smarter than that, but you're not acting like it.

zephyrprime · 2014-06-16T15:15:32+00:00

"I think most people just feel like a damn person and want to be treated as such. I wish gender and sex did not exist.".

I don't think this is the case at all. I think most people don't feel this way and do feel like they are a specific gender. I think maybe only 10% don't fell strongly gendered. I believe that one of the problem of radical feminism and gender theory has that is simply wrong is that most people don't fit into their gender well and easily so gender is a wrong fit for the human race. I believe the opposite is true. Most people DO fit into their gender well and only a minority don't fit into it well. I have met many people who don't fit into their gender well. It's pretty clear to me that most of these people are just born this way. However, these are a minority. The world is overwhelmingly filled with Bros and Hoes - not people who don't fit into their gender role well. Yes, these people have a lot of struggles that others don't have. However, this is just a natural consequence of being different than the large majority. It's not because they are heavily oppressed by society.

And on a theoretical level, I understand why gender roles exist and why it was beneficial for nature to have created them. It is simply a form of work specialization. Just like having different job positions at a workplace is better than having everyone do the same job, it is better to have work specialization even at a biological level in members of any species. Imagine if everyone performed the same job function at work. Everyone did a little of this and a little of that. It could work but such a workplace would be sooo inefficient compared to real workplace where there are job functions. With job roles, people specialize in doing what they are good and avoid what they are not good at. Gender simply allows nature to do the same thing. If anything, with the modern technological world and it's much broader ranges of vocations, nature should evolve MORE genders roles to increase specialization more.

superstevelive · 2014-06-16T16:19:17+00:00

We can! You can be any number of things you'd like, in the fashion you please. You should look into the work of camelia peglia(pretty sure that's the wrong spelling) she is a tough self identifying feminist who at the same time has respect for good men and what we can contribute. You are on the right track realizing the people you've actually met need their own chance to prove what they are, murderers, rapist and thieves come in many sizes. If you stay real with people on a personal basis and let their character be your guide to friend and lover you will find in the end we are just people and the vast vast majority want safety and happiness for our neighbors and friends.

philosarapter · 2014-06-16T16:40:21+00:00

I'd say we are all 'just' people, however the judgments are as varied as the people making the judgments. Its human to make judgments based on appearance, I'm not sure we could exist without them. The problems arise when people create stereotypes as a way to be intellectually lazy or worse, to demonize a group of people. Every time someone says "All women are whores" or "All men are pigs" they create this concept which is toxic to our compassion towards those people. We find it easier to hate on people or disqualify their experiences if we can label them as 'bad' people. Its this human bias we struggle with all the time: that people are either good or bad, and that bad people deserve bad things.

This type of simplistic thinking reduces the marvel of a human being to a single concept, a concept that can be tarnished and dragged through the mud until there is not a single person who would support those that fit the mold.

But all these divisions are subjective, when we create an exclusive group, we simultaneously create outsiders. As long as we see the world in terms of 'self' and 'other', we will continually separate ourselves. It is only when you start to see yourself in other people that you find their humanity, that you begin to extend your love towards them.

The problem with these gender movements is they focus so primarily on our differences as genders, you'd almost believe we were to completely alien species to each other. Because movements like these define themselves as an opposition and choose to highlight differences while ignoring our overwhelming number of similarities.

In time, I hope we come together as a single humanist egalitarian movement, that recognizes we are all human beings first and foremost, and our respective genders secondary. We all suffer through pain and hardship, we all seek purpose and security. If only we could understand we are more similar than different, then perhaps we can settle the 'gender war' once and for all.

MassivePenis · 2014-06-16T16:59:42+00:00

Might I suggest you blog it.

Victory_Disease · 2014-06-16T17:21:55+00:00

In your situation, I'd recommend reading a more politically neutral, in-depth book on the subject of "bad men." Feminist stuff tends to treat male evil (that is, evil done by men, which is not necessarily inherently masculine in nature though feminists tend to treat it as so) through a very strong ideological lens that I don't feel is very appropriate or grounded in the evidence. If you are legitimately dealing with a psychopath, you may have read some books on the subject already, but if you haven't, I'd highly recommend Predators by Anna Salter.

Getting an in-depth analysis of how these people operate and why what they do works is very helpful. In the end, I do think the evidence is on the side that, for reasons that are mostly beyond our control at present, a small minority of people are just plain evil and the rest of us are stuck with them. They get away with shit, get protected by others, etc, because they've had a literal lifetime of practice and have learned what buttons to push to get the results they want.

BlackMRA-edtastic · 2014-06-16T18:24:52+00:00

I see myself as a gender abolitionist in the sense that I think forced gender roles hurt girls and boys.

Gender roles themselves are often just norms rather than rigid roles genders are forced into. Forcing a end to gender identity would require oppression to implement. This is not something people want to do and you're trying to force it on them because some small minority might prefer it. I'd much rather we respect peoples freedom. If you don't want to abide by a gender role you're free to deviate or change your gender all together.

I am finding that I love the strength in radical feminism, where there is no pressure to be a dainty little flower

This is a common white feminist perspective. Black feminist on the other hand are wondering when they'll get to be the 'dainty little flower' because they were always expected to be strong. This means these gender role expectations are really just subsets of cultures, family types, and communities rather than a holistic assessment of the whole society. You'll find most of feminism is centered around the perspective of relatively privileged white women or those who echo their sentiments.

but I feel like there are certain negative aspects infiltrating my mind in a way that seems unhealthy. I'm feeling like my loving boyfriend is the enemy. There is no balance. It's all or nothing. All men are enemies.

This is because their goal is control over you and men. One is just a means to the other. By calling men the problem they can demand moral authority to change them, for that to happen people must agree that men are the problem. Acceptance of men as they are is out the question even though they might extend that freedom of identity to women provided it doesn't conflict with feminism. For example a traditionalist women won't be respected. The group is defending itself from dissent and going to extremes and demanding acceptance is very effective approach to orthodoxy policing.

But how could this be when so many of them are much more sensitive than I am?

Sociopaths are manipulative and charming. Being sensitive is a means to an end for a great many people who feign empathy to work people over. Trust that their goal is control and you'll find that out when you voice dissent.

I'm very much in love with him but sometimes I get so afraid that he's just a cheating, lying [insert stereotype here] that I'll have to run off into a lesbian separatist community (I'm not kidding).

That's sad, people need to handle disappointment from the opposite sex better than that. Lesbians give each other hell just like heterosexual couples. They have the highest rates of domestic violence as compared to gay and hetero couples.

I wish gender and sex did not exist. There is so much bullshit in the world, and the radical feminist writers are very good at pinpointing the feelings associated with being women in society

Don't be so self centered. Your desire to be without gender should require you impose that reality on everyone else.

I would have no trouble relating to many angry men venting about society, women and gender relations. The thing is I don't let that make me jaded about women or society. There are some biases worth discussing affecting both sexes but overall people are good and fair. Anyone going into cynical overdrive should be looked at with suspicion. For men that's far more appropriate than for women because they haven't had a half century of feminist raising every gender issue they could think of affecting their sex.

I just hate the schism that is created. I hate misogyny, and I've met some dyed-in-the-wool misogynists (see above: sociopath who tried to kill me).

The schism isn't created by gender, it's created by people who use it to create a schism. Feminist are one of those people and you know it because you've been explaining how that's what's going on in your post.

Does anyone else hate that we can't all just be people, judged individually, without regard to our bodies?

Yes but we're very much blaming feminist for contributing to that and so are you whether or not you notice it.

SchalaZeal01 · 2014-06-16T18:58:40+00:00

[permanently deleted]

HolySchmoly · 2014-06-16T22:36:44+00:00

Look. Theories are ten a penny. Go read Farrell "why men are...". Read earlier feminists who you might agree with: Wollstonecraft, De Beauvoir, Friedan. Read about deCrow who died yesterday but clung to the rationalist roots of her feminism without shying away from the implications.

But above all trust your intuition. All this so-called theory has to make sense and be capable of actually explaining your lived experience.

Watch that video of the Janice Fiamengo speech. What if this theory of a class divide between the sexes is simply not true?

Question blithe assumptions. Is all reality socially constructed? Think the unthinkable. Maybe reality is just there like you always naively imagined. Social reality is socially constructed by definition. But the rest of it may not be. What about the body? Maybe it's just there. Maybe Foucault and irigiray are just wrong.

Maybe there is such a thing as truth even if we can't know it all. Maybe beliefs can be false. Maybe we do have to be consistent if we want to make sense.

Maybe there are such things as right and wrong. Maybe some behaviours are wrong. Maybe equal rights for women require men to give up some things. Maybe equal rights for women also require women to give up some things.

iethatis · 2014-06-16T11:18:03+00:00

This seems to be the default sub for any runoff from feminism, which is unfortunate. The real question is do you care about men and boys?

dopp2 · 2014-06-16T14:56:15+00:00

Just find other hobby.

Radical fems hate nerdy/manly girls who are not totally girly and try to push them out. Go into their convention with atari t-shirt, sandals and without makeup.

greycloud24 · 2014-06-16T12:17:30+00:00

i am literally afraid of women like you. please wear a shirt or something that identifies you so guys like me will be able to avoid you. you make it harder for me to get to know other women because there is a chance it will be someone like you.

men are not the enemy unless you make them into one. and if you make them into one you are starting a fight with a guy. guys fight using violence. so you start a self fulfilling prophecy. they can either treat you like they would treat a guy (beat you up), or they are emasculated by you (you emotionally beat them up).

i wish i could go through life without having to worry that women like you were around.

mirazatha · 2014-06-16T20:33:40+00:00

please note: the following answer will have little to do with either feminism or the MRM

Does anyone else hate that we can't all just be people, judged individually, without regard to our bodies?

i do. i really, really agree with this. this is why i am waiting for the trans-humanist movement to really kick off. science and technology are progressing to the point where its almost possible for people to actually fuclly change their gender, cybernetics and prosthetics are becoming more and more advance (even brain implants and things are actually being researched and tested, rather than just things you read about in science fiction books), people are trying to map out brainwaves and things so that we can transfer entire minds into computers, and there are a number of groups actively trying to create an genuine artificial intelligence. if any of those things become possible, then all of this "men are this way women are another way we/you cant understand them/us" falls out the window. like, if a machine is considered a person, then having a different gender seems like a really minor difference compared to organic/inorganic.

anyways, i dont know if this answered anything or helped, but your not alone in thinking that somethings messed up

DavidByron2 · 2014-06-16T16:46:23+00:00

Feminism teaches that men are inherently evil and that they all love to attack and rape women and oppress them. It's a popular hate movement in the same sense as the KKK used to be in the 1920s when it was considered "progressive" too.

All men are enemies

Right. Radical feminists (got to love their honesty) tell it like it is. All feminists believe this crap but most know that blabbing about it will make them look like crazy assholes. The radicals don't care. That's why they openly talk about killing off all the men.

I'll have to run off into a lesbian separatist community

Learn to like pussy then. That's the logical extent of the ideology. All heterosexual sex is rape (by the male).

I just hate the schism that is created

The schism is kinda the whole point of feminism. As you just said the feminists are segregationists. They think the sexes are vitally different and ought to be kept separate.

ETA: and yes I do realise you were just trolling. Source of data is no consequence.

Title	Feminist here...I need help.
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	49
Comments	349
Date	June 16, 2014 10:04 AM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/289p5w/feminist_herei_need_help/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/feminist-herei-need-help.999146 https://theredarchive.com/post/999146

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