Do women decide what masculinity is?

GridReXX · 2024-05-12T00:41:51+00:00

I think to a degree women’s desires of men dictate how masculinity manifests and to a degree men’s desires of women dictate how femininity manifests.

Touched on this earlier today actually:

Biological “femaleness” or “maleness” aside…

I do think the traits that the world and men tend to find desirable/attractive in women is what tends to be lauded as peak “femininity™️.”

And I do think the traits that the world and women tend to find desirable/attractive in men is what tends to be lauded as peak “masculinity™️.”

InkAddict718 · 2024-05-11T23:21:30+00:00

They don’t decide what masculinity is, but they reward certain behavior and those behaviors are what men will do. Men with experience know that women are attracted to dominance and social status. Keeping other women around also makes him more attractive

sixsevenrice · 2024-05-11T22:56:54+00:00

Masculine is tall, handsome, and confident.

Note that tall and handsome is key. An ugly guy acting confident is overcompensating and napoleon complex.

oooo020201lfl · 2024-05-12T00:34:17+00:00

Women decide who gets pussy or not and that directly shapes what type of man a guy aspires to be. If that means being an inconsiderate douchebag then so be it

Independent-Mail-227 · 2024-05-11T23:33:06+00:00

Yes, indirectly. Societal norms decide what is masculinity and women are the ones that morph social norms.

EulenWatcher · 2024-05-11T23:26:25+00:00

Both men and women "decide" what masculinity or femininity as, as these are concepts created by society and society includes both genders.

During most of our written history few people had a lot of weight to influence social norms and concepts and they were almost exclusively from the elite and mostly men (with some exceptions of course). Religion used to play a big part in society and determine what was considered masculine or feminine and religions were shaped mostly by men as well. Of course, there were some prominent women both in politics and religion, but the ratio wasn't really in their favor. Also marriage used to be more about family relationships and power rather than about love or attraction, so quite a lot of people married partners they probably weren't into and women had less power on this field than men did as well. I'm not sure we can talk about any selection for certain traits done by an individual under these circumstances.

So I'd argue that historically men (mostly elite) had more influence on the concepts of femininity and masculinity. It's changed these days, when both genders have equal rights and people can actually choose a partner for themselves without being subjected to arranged marriages or being sold to their spouse's family. Both men and women contribute to the ideas of gender roles and have power to approach/accept partners they're interested in.

Wattehfok · 2024-05-11T23:02:47+00:00

Masculinity is a social construction. Women are half of society. It stands to reason they play a role in the construction of masculinity.

But to sheet everything back to dudes wanting to get their dicks wet seems overly deterministic.

purplish_possum · 2024-05-12T02:13:07+00:00

Women decide who they want to fuck.

MongoBobalossus · 2024-05-11T23:20:08+00:00

I think they influence it and play into it, but don’t totally decide it. Same with femininity on the other side of the coin.

UnhappyInevitable680 · 2024-05-11T23:40:44+00:00

Essentially they do actually. Fundamentally masculinity and femininity is dictated by attraction from the opposite sex. That’s why they are loosely defined and hard to argue for or against their existence. Attraction just is, for reasons unexplained. But its purpose seems to be to advance our species. Evolution is the fabric of everything in the universe.

CarHungry · 2024-05-12T05:17:49+00:00

Masculinity is impressed upon kids even at the toddler stage, there's no explicit sexuality there, but I would say that women do have an impact on the way men and boys behave later in life, but very limited and it isn't always intentional.

Like you could argue that women bahaving submissively romantically invites male psychopaths who could easily take advantage, and due to their relative success, men may emulate that behavior. But it isn't just sex that drives psychopaths, that should be obvious.

Hi-Road · 2024-05-11T23:00:46+00:00

I think people who are easily influenced may give a lot of power to the objects of their desire, so many women have the power to influence the behavior of many men, and vv.

They're personally deciding what masculinity is to them, but that alone obviously can't have any effect on anyone. That comes when people who want to be accepted by them mold themselves to better fit that (current) standard. This can probably happen with not only relationships between partners, but parent-child relationships, etc

throwaway164_3 · 2024-05-11T23:00:21+00:00

I don’t think women decide what masculinity is

I think evolutionary biology and sexual selection decides what masculinity is!

lostacoshermanos · 2024-05-12T08:37:24+00:00

Masculine = rich

Feminine = not being bitchy

campskills21 · 2024-05-11T23:11:02+00:00

Social media put us in a trend of hyper masculinity and hyper femininity, so we can stand out and be celebrities in our own world. Being tall, muscular, and overtly masculine with facial hair were not nearly as heavily desired by women 20 years ago. When you have these masculine strong qualities, she knows her picture with you on social media will make her look more feminine in comparison.

Before this male trend being a clean shaven, sharply dressed metrosexual was popular, men were more flamboyant. Now men are supposed to be stoic. In the 90s being disheveled with baggy jeans and flannel was in for the grunge era, the I don’t live by society norms attitude. 80s guys were preppy with new wave hairspray haircuts, making guys look more effeminate.

I’m not sure what influences this what men are supposed to live up to for women. It’s a spinning wheel, not really just girls calling out new rules.

Your 3 examples in your post are all true though. Guys that are struggling with women, I say you really need to pay attention to the guys that aren’t and why they have it in with girls and you don’t. Then they say it’s just all looks and height, that’s all that matters with girls and give up usually.

wtknight · 2024-05-12T00:31:27+00:00

Yes probably. Men's status contests that definite masculinity amongst each other are basically contests to either attract women, or to attract power and resources that will attract women, and women are the ones who ultimately sexually select men.

Sure_Tourist1088 · 2024-05-12T01:23:56+00:00

Women can't even decide what a woman is, what makes you think they have masculinity on lock?

neinhaltchad · 2024-05-12T03:54:31+00:00

Men don’t redpill men; women do.

SupportRemarkable583 · 2024-05-11T23:20:45+00:00

Idk. There are dudes that paint their fingernails that somehow can still get women and painting your finger nails sure as fuck isn't masculine. I think the only thing that matter to women is if you're attractive and tall for the most part.

KurlyKayla · 2024-05-12T05:22:08+00:00

masculinity and femininity are traits that anyone can have, regardless their gender. women don't decide what they mean, and men don't decide what they mean. Culture decides.

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Ayaka_Simp_ · 2024-05-12T00:16:20+00:00

No. They can choose for the masculine behavior they like. But they don't create it.

Sutanrei · 2024-05-12T00:20:05+00:00

Women cannot define it, they have little idea what it even entails. This is almost laughable to even entertain.

Queasy_Bit952 · 2024-05-12T00:25:52+00:00

Let's just cut to the chase. Do you think mascalunity is bad in some way? Or that women think its bad? If so, what 'bad' things about men do you think are the fault of men?

What 'bad' things about women do you think are the fault of men?

superlurkage · 2024-05-12T01:03:22+00:00

Everyone does. That’s how stereotypes work

Intellect7000 · 2024-05-12T02:11:32+00:00

Masculinity is a set of traits that have been sexually selected for reproductive success and have been passed on from generation to generation for the last million years. Women don't always sexually select rather if a masculine trait is successful in survival and reproduction, it will survive the next generation and be passed on.

David-Metty · 2024-05-12T02:17:12+00:00

Women don’t understand masculinity. Just look at the ridiculous pseudo-masculinity career women indulge in. Since they don’t understand it, or just have superficial understanding, women have nothing to do with masculinity.

BrainMarshal · 2024-05-12T03:41:23+00:00

Does a former Drill Sergeant make a terrible therapist?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWhr2xevNKY

DapperDan1929 · 2024-05-12T03:53:41+00:00

Are you 14?

bluestjuice · 2024-05-12T04:46:52+00:00

Nobody really knows what masculinity is; it’s an idea that is developed by everyone in collaboration. But some of the people collaborating on the idea are women, yeah.

Stunning-Spirit5275 · 2024-05-12T07:38:54+00:00

Is there really a definition of masculinity or femininity that isn't based on traditional / historical views ?

SecondEldenLord · 2024-05-12T08:06:01+00:00

Yes, no matter how masculine you are, if you lack the looks or resources, you are not a man.

TRTGymBro1 · 2024-05-12T11:43:02+00:00

When you understand that the least masculine thing you can do is give women so much power over yourself including the power to shape your identity; maybe you will finally understand what masculinity actually is.

boom-wham-slam · 2024-05-12T12:32:13+00:00

Yes women decide masculinity and men decide femininity

Keep_Forever666 · 2024-05-12T14:23:50+00:00

If left alone, men will become feral masculine by default. If you feed them a steady diet of femininity as children they will become feminine. If you feed them hyper-masculinity as children, (don’t drink from a straw, that’s what women do) then they will become that.

You can make a person into anything if you get them as children and brainwash them. You can make them devoutly religious (feed them religion) or a hyper-sexual promiscuous person (feed them porn) the opposite gender (confuse them), gay (groom them), a work-aholic (tiger-mom), a serial killer (abuse them).

People are molded as children, not as adults.

Purple_Kangaroo8549 · 2024-05-12T14:55:07+00:00

No, men give women rights. Society is entirely constructed through male power, women are just along for the ride.

tHiShiTiStooPID · 2024-05-12T16:17:27+00:00

The very last person who should ever define masculinity is a woman. What does a woman know about what it means to be a man. Oh she can tell you how she “imagines” men being, or philosophize about a new definition of masculinity, but all that should be taken about as seriously as any other fantasy. What a woman thinks masculinity should be is irrelevant and men waiting around for women to tell them how to act will only lead to more of the same bullshit, besides being weak af. Men define what it is to be a man. Everyone else is just a spectator.

RubyDiscus · 2024-05-12T16:21:05+00:00

Women decide what masculinity is and so do men.

Intermale competition etc exists to reaffirm what masculinity is.

VWGUYWV · 2024-05-12T17:31:00+00:00

Part of the female imperative is deciding what social convention is or should be.

For instance, many women (at least subconsciously) feel that any man that is not in direct service of a woman and/or children is not a "real man".

imaniimellz · 2024-05-12T21:03:30+00:00

i believe we definitely have a say so into what we consider what masculinity is because if we don’t then men can display toxic masculinity.

DaoMark · 2024-05-12T22:03:05+00:00

This really depends on how you define masculinity, which in of itself sort of determines whether women influence it or not.

Updawg145 · 2024-05-13T00:36:29+00:00

I think your argument is sound, and I think the classic chimpanzee vs bonobo dynamic is relevant here:

Chimpanzees are patriarchal, and also routinely engage in violent competition. Females are largely subordinate to males, often due to violence.

Bonobos are matriarchal, and the females control male behavior with access to sex. The physical strength differences between sexes are far less pronounced, and male bonobos are generally far more docile/submissive than chimpanzees.

Imo in the past we more closely mirrored the chimpanzee dynamic, and now we're heading towards the bonobo dynamic. If/when women are able to freely select mates they'll tend to value submissive behavior and withhold sex from men who aren't docile and obedient. This is evident in the fact that almost every soyboy blue pill man has no issue getting a girlfriend. They're rewarded for femininity, docility, and obedience with sex.

The problem I have with this dynamic is that it's not very good vs reality. Bonobos live in isolated environments with no external threats. Humans do not. We're constantly under threat from things like natural disasters or foreign invasion. Allowing women to dictate masculinity and sexual selection inherently weakens men and will one day make us ripe for being conquered by a patriarchal, militaristic society.

OtPayOkerSmay · 2024-05-13T04:26:31+00:00

To a degree. Women collectively decide what is attractive on a primal level in men, and those traits are over-represented amongst men as a result.

If women stopped simping for certain anti-social, violent traits, I have faith that things would get better very fast.

just_a_place · 2024-05-13T05:42:40+00:00

No.

VasiliyZaitzev · 2024-05-13T11:19:20+00:00

Heterosexual women decide what male SMV is, just as heterosexual men decide what female SMV is. Personally, I don’t think that that equates to women finding what “masculinity“ just as men do not define what “femininity“ is.

Ex. I’m not sure that most people would think that Timothée Chalamet is an overly masculine guy, but he has a high SMV because he’s young, relatively fit, famous, and a lot of women would bang him.

obviousredflag · 2024-05-19T10:59:05+00:00

Men will see what kind of other men are having the most success with women and will copy those men.

I'll add a third example. If a man's behavior results in a woman having sex with him, he's going to repeat that behavior. So, the type of behavior a woman, for lack of a better term, rewards, is the type of behavior she will get more of from that man.

Nope. Counter-example: nice guys.

NJFlowerchild · 2024-05-11T23:28:52+00:00

Masculinity is how a man feels manly. That's it. It could be anything and it's not for women to decide. Some men enjoy being stay at home parents and taking care of their kids and that is traditionally considered feminine. That is not feminine behavior. Femininity is however a woman feels womanly. That might be fixing her own truck and being independent. Others aren't going to define it that way. They're going to say she's masculine.

Electric_Death_1349 · 2024-05-11T23:01:35+00:00

Point 1 is completely incorrect; during their prime, women will sleep with fuckboys who will not get them pregnant - it is only when the big 3-0 roll around and the old biological clock is ticking a bit too loudly for comfort does she conclude that it’s time to “settle down” and start looking for a Beta Male Provider. These are the type of men she’s treated with contempt her entire adult life, but now she’ll allow one to touch her for as long as it takes to get pregnant and baby trap him, after which the bedroom goes cold.

sixsevenrice · 2024-05-11T22:59:25+00:00

Masculine men are tall, handsome, and confident.

Key words are tall and handsome. An ugly short guy acting confident is not masculine.

GunR_SC2 · 2024-05-11T23:33:13+00:00

The problem is that most of us let them, men need to give zero shits to stuff like hoarding women and how being a dark triad male attracts women and have a deeper focus on being something we actually want to be, like Aragorn for example.

The constant rhetoric for sex gives women all the power and distorts what men should and could be.

xixthcentury · 2024-05-12T13:58:53+00:00

It's another one of those paradoxes. The more women are liberated, the more they will demand men to conform to very strict standards of masculinity (height, looks and what not). It's like that study that found out that in more equal societies men's and women's interests tend to diverge, and not to converge.

It's kinda bizarre that unhinged patriarchy and unhinged feminist based societies will have the same end result: harems (famine for the large majority of males, feast for the top few).

antisplatter · 2024-05-11T23:09:19+00:00

I asked myself this question a while ago, and I decided yes. Nothing that dries pussy can ever be considered masculine.

Reasonable_Voice_997 · 2024-05-11T23:29:43+00:00

NO NO NO!!! They decide on what they want, it’s a men who decide if he wants to be masculine or not.

YtBlue · 2024-05-11T23:41:14+00:00

No masculinity would be masculine things/experiences that is universal to men. Women have never walked in men shoes to decide

Scarce12 · 2024-05-12T00:33:40+00:00

How is it that researchers use a man's number of sex partners as a proxy for gauging their sexual success, I've never understood that.

It implies some extraordinary broad assumptions about society.

The biggest assumption is that society is just a bunch of fucking liars.

Caicedonia · 2024-05-12T07:05:14+00:00

Masculinity changes with the years. In today’s era you almost have to sacrifice a few brain cells and be a fighting douche to get women. Unless off you are born tall af then life is a little easier. But not by much, because you still need money.

Basically masculinity is being the top 80th percentile for 2 things. It can be anything really, that is both practical and useful plus either have money or be tall.

Choice-Substance-183 · 2024-05-11T23:20:23+00:00

Lol. This is such bullshit.

their mate selection, women are deciding what masculinity is.

What the fuck? So because I selected my husband, I decide what masculinity is, and other men are going to copy his success?

Well, all he did was have a job, have hobbies, and have interests. That's the key to masculinity.

Updawg145 · 2024-05-11T23:01:07+00:00

It’s interesting to me how seemingly everyone but traditionally masculine men get to decide and define what masculinity is, haha. I guess there’s no perfect definition, but part of that is because masculinity as a concept has been obfuscated to the point it’s almost a meaningless term. Living in a culture that’s obviously trying to demoralize and feminize men, this is no doubt intentional.

Title	Do women decide what masculinity is?
Author	shadowrangerfs
Upvotes	65
Comments	213
Date	May 11, 2024 10:49 PM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1cptdkp/do_women_decide_what_masculinity_is/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/do-women-decide-what-masculinity-is.1518227 https://theredarchive.com/post/1518227

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