Are white knights overwhelming Seddit?

60177756 · 2012-07-03T22:03:18+00:00

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ThrowawayPUA · 2012-07-03T21:06:30+00:00

This is a special case that I have been speaking out against for a long time. seddit is not a place for people to moralize about what other people want. If you don't want to seduce women who say they are in relationships, then you can choose not to do that in your own life. But don't go preaching to other people that what they want is immoral, just because you wouldn't choose it.

This sort of moralizing is something I'd expect from conservative religious bigots like Newt Gingrich or Rick Santorum, but not from seddit. It is sex-negative and it's a male version of slut shaming. That is not what we do in seddit.

The problem is, a lot of guys got into PUA because they were hurt in a relationship. They blame the other guy, he "stole my woman" or they blame her, "she cheated on me." The very phrasing of those words is a problem. It assumes women are your property, and that they don't have a right to make their own sexual decisions. It assumes women are your prize you won and nobody can take it from you. That is dehumanizing women. The problem is YOU, not them. Your possessiveness and ridiculous attitudes towards women are what drives them away.

I've seen this from both sides. When I was younger, I "stole a woman" from another guy. She was miserable and he was a junkie. I saved her from misery in an abusive relationship, and we lived together happily for years, the best years of our lives. And on the other hand, recently I was in a bad relationship with a woman, and my possessiveness drove her away. I was an idiot, but I didn't know it. I was so crushed that I came to studying PUA to discover how I could "get" women. In the process of that study, I learned that I was wrong, I had to change. I had to get rid of those stupid, conservative ideas that society pushed on me, and that I absorbed unconsciously.

But the white knight downvoters have not learned that lesson yet. They are still in anguish over their last "stolen" girlfriend. They push the downvote button with a sense of bitterness towards anyone that might "steal a woman." They may never learn this lesson. But I will remind everyone, not every woman who says she has a boyfriend, actually has a boyfriend. It is the most common rejection of all. Women use it because they know chumps will accept it without question. Most of the women who use this rejection method do NOT have boyfriends, they're just using the most convenient excuse, and they know it will deter chumps who don't have the nerve to push forward anyway. That's a shit test. It excludes the chumps who will give up at the least discouragement.

But ultimately, as far as seddit is concerned, this is a reddiquette problem. You are not supposed to downvote comments you disagree with. You are supposed to downvote comments that do not contribute to the discussion. Do not downvote people who want things you don't want, or make choices you wouldn't make.

JSintra · 2012-07-03T22:39:44+00:00

Yes, this place reeks of r/relationships.

I thought we didn't linger on morality issues and instead cared about being a better self. If a girl cheats to be with you, you are not at fault. She has made a conscious decision to be with you. And no, you don't own your girlfriend, she is not your property (or anyone else's for that matter) and it is her decision to be with you. You are not a bad person if a girl cheats to be with you (actually, it just might prove that you're becoming a better man, more awesome than her boyfriend).

Also, could we cut out this alpha/beta bullshit? The best article I've read in a long time on this subreddit was this one, and what it says is that you don't need to be a dick; just be a better person by improving your own self, not at the cost of others. Can we just have more of that?

portmanteau · 2012-07-03T21:31:07+00:00

Like with anything in seduction, the reason behind doing something or not doing something is just as important as the thing you are doing or not doing. Do, or do not, but know why you're doing it. Know what frame you're coming from. And make sure it's a good one.

The classical example relevant to this community, for example, is when we advise newbies to not buy drinks for girls. Why do we say this? Because when newbies buy drinks for girls, they do it because they're being supplicating, or they do it because they think they can "buy" a girl's affections. That intention shows through as unattractive, as low value behavior. However, if I'm having an awesome time with a girl I've recently met, and we're laughing our asses off, I might buy her a drink. (Maybe. Alcohol is expensive at bars. Hopefully, we're more likely to be at my place, and I'll make her a drink at this point, but you get the idea.) Why does buying a drink work in this situation? The reason behind it. I'm communicating, "hey, I'm having a good time with you. Let me show you that I appreciate interacting with you." The frame is completely different. Instead of seeking approval, I'm giving it.

Likewise, do you try to pick up a girl if she says she has a boyfriend? Yes or no, both answers are irrelevant, and they're nowhere near as important as the reason you choose to make the decision.

It seems that some "white knights" say "don't do it, bro!" When you ask them why, they give you an answer along the lines of "bro code" or "honor." Whenever someone mentions "honor" as a reason for not doing something, I tend to assume that they're a scrub until they give me reason to believe otherwise. If you haven't read Playing to Win, I encourage it. It talks about the "scrub," someone who tries to play (whatever game) with some additional set of rules that the game doesn't recognize (like honor) and feels it's "unfair" when people who don't play by the rules they make up get better results than them. If that sounds familiar, it's because we tend to use another term for "scrub" around here: AFC. AFCs don't have their own sense of self, so they seek other people's values in decision making. Hence, things like "honor" become guidelines for decision making. If that is you're baseline for your decision making process, you're definitely in need of some more growth and maturity.

Since we know that "honor" is a scrub (AFC) tactic, how should we be guided? How about the Golden Rule? Do unto others as you would have them do unto me. So would I have others try to pick up my girl? Sure. Because of my own skills (largely in part, due to the community), I'm not afraid of dudes trying to pick up my girl. I know that I'm awesome, and she knows it too, and isn't really interested in other guys in the same way she is with me.

If you're solid in your game, and secure in your relationships, and the Golden Rule is one of the foundations of your reality, then sure, pick up women who have boyfriends.

My own opinion on the matter, though? Which would I choose? I feel that we can do better than the Golden Rule. Not just for ourselves, but for everybody. For me, I don't pick up women who are in committed relationships. What's the reason for that? There's several, but two of them stick out.

1) Because my game is solid, I am in no shortage of women in my life.

2) Like we say in pickup, "leave her better than you found her." One of my own personal philosophies is "leave the world better than you found it."

Do I need to pick up on a girl with a boyfriend, or will another single one come along in the next hour/day/week/whatever? If you've got this powerful urge to pick up on a woman in a relationship, are you sure that you're not doing it out of some remnants of the concept of the "starvation model?" If you're not already waist deep in women, you've got some soul seeking to do (and be brutally honest when you ask yourself if you're still in the starvation model, or if you're living in abundance). If you've got your women situation under control, then go on and try to make her life (and your night) better.

But will sleeping with a woman in a relationship make her better? Will it make her boyfriend better? One of the reasons we come together in this community in the first place is to better ourselves. One of the best ways we can do that is to establish ourselves as attractive and moral and ethical. If the boyfriend in question finds out that a PUA slept with his girlfriend, is his response going to be, "well, damn, that pick up artist has some skill I don't. Maybe I should learn seduction!" I think we all know that he's just gonna be angry and pissed, and the woman is rewarded with sex, sex with you (you do think of yourself as the prize, right? Because you should.) Rewarding cheating and hurting other guys (even if I don't know them) doesn't make the world better. Instead, I try to make the world better through my own example, of being an awesome guy.

I try to be an ambassador of pickup, and I think we should all try to be, through bettering our own selves. Isn't that why we're here in the second place? I came for the women, but I stayed for the personal improvement. Don't stop the personal improvement just because you got the women, or you won't keep them.

Anyway, that's a really long way of saying that the white knights have a lot of growing up to do. Just because they're doing the same thing as me (not picking up on attached women) in no way means that they're doing it for the right reasons. And, since I pointed out two morality systems that are better than "honor" in making the choice for you, what it really comes down to is that the reasoning behind your decisions is at least as important (and probably more important) the what you choose to do.

TL,DR: I'm wordy. Suck it up. :P

puaCurveBall · 2012-07-03T21:46:26+00:00

The best relationship of my life happened by the girl cheating on her boyfriend of 3years and breaking up with him few weeks after.

Wouldn't change anything for the world.

He was better off, and this isn't rationalizing. His girl was a cheating bitch (love her to death) and being together wasn't going anywhere but more pain

Heavy_Industries · 2012-07-03T23:26:23+00:00

If someone cheats to hook up with me it is a law of the universe that I am not expecting more than a hook up from them since they are a cheater.

I upvote when a post is good or a response is good. I down vote only when someone makes a joke or a pun that takes away from what's being discussed.

glassuser · 2012-07-03T23:37:28+00:00

Maybe, but that post is not a good example of it. I disagreed with some of the follow ups because I don't think it's relevant - seduction should not be about trying to "steal" a woman. My take on it is that I'm worth a lot more than being some slore's lay on the side, or someone's mistake. I'm all for giving people the freedom to be as sexual as they like, blasting through LMR and ASD - that's helping the target as much as it's helping you.

But I won't be party to helping someone else violate their commitments. I don't care if they'll do it with the next willing guy to come along - I'm worth more than just being "that guy".

amichaux · 2012-07-03T20:17:58+00:00

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Schroedingers_gif · 2012-07-04T02:12:35+00:00

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fragglemook · 2012-07-04T02:24:31+00:00

One of the things I commonly see is people spouting the trite sentiment that we should "Leave a girl better than you found her.", as if we know what is best for a woman.

I find this to be an arrogant, foolish, meddlesome and controlling idea born out of self-desperation and so futile in conception given that the individuals choice is disregarded. It stinks of the nanny state and those who make her up.

People criticise PUA for being manipulative but at least we benefit from modifying OUR OWN behaviour to elicit a response from women, whereas white knights are the ultimate in insecure controlling mind gamers who don't have their own integrity but like to project their 'enlightenment' on women as an easy display of looking like they are in control and what they get in return is an emotional attachment and an over-investment they were not looking for in the first place, certainly not why they came to seddit.

Reading the thread in question, I think we can see here how this guy has completely dumbed his verbiage down to sound like some of the worst and most ineffective PUA multi-level marketing material on the internet. His technical analysis boils down to: "Bro code? If she has a bf, don't be a douche. "

This is a classic example of the blind leading the blind. It makes you think of an ape guarding the women-apes he has painstakingly formed relations with over time, in a territorial manner, as if after all his efforts, all his hard work at maintaining alpha status, the rug could be pulled out from under him in a heartbeat.

n0c0ntr0l · 2012-07-03T22:13:19+00:00

I remember writing a post like this a few months ago hahaha. I'll go dig it up!

EDIT: http://www.reddit.com/r/seduction/comments/oewqi/declaration_of_intent/

Attila_TheHipster · 2012-07-04T03:11:26+00:00

Time to screw over all my karma:

There are no moral principles.

We do what we do because it is in our benefit, facilitates our survival/fulfils our desires and because society/culture tells us to (which is linked to facilitating our survival).

Uptonogood · 2012-07-03T22:31:20+00:00

I feel ya dude. I've been downvoted for suggesting girls should be able to have sex lives withouth being called sluts.

And all kinds of extreme AFC behaviours are being upvoted. Its getting ridiculous.

Its like you really read my mind, I was preparing a post about exactly this. Seddit ought to have a large sign on top that says: "White knights are not welcome here, go be a loser somewhere else."

FUCK_YOU_420 · 2012-09-16T11:13:21+00:00

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Danny-Dreams · 2012-07-03T23:47:58+00:00

Not just seddit, but the whole of reddit!

Konflyk · 2012-07-04T04:19:46+00:00

Pic related

solidqt · 2012-07-04T11:28:30+00:00

here here sir!

darkain13 · 2012-07-04T07:23:14+00:00

On a sidenote that's a novelty account I think.

SubSeven98 · 2012-07-04T14:18:16+00:00

How can you assume it's other males doing this. Could be a that a ton of women are now noticing this subreddit and hate everything about it.

goldbluntz · 2012-07-04T16:31:07+00:00

here, here.

baaaark · 2012-07-03T20:18:32+00:00

Everyone just wants to be a freakin Jedi around here. lol

I agree, but that attitude is in itself unattractive to most. Jedi's don't get laid. Don't be Luke, be Han.

meshugga · 2012-07-04T00:36:56+00:00

Let's check our moral judgements at the door, people

No, let's not.

baddestdog · 2012-07-03T19:50:44+00:00

It's like climate change, there are two sides but both are not equally valid. There are so very few reasons that cheating is the right move for any of the parties involved, especially when there are so many other fish in the sea.

drosengix · 2012-07-04T02:06:47+00:00

It's not just a seddit thing, it's a reddit thing. The worst I've seen is on r/r4r

superchibisan2 · 2012-07-04T18:11:40+00:00

Seduction is a dark art when used for merely acquiring sex.

rebuildingMyself · 2012-07-04T05:50:06+00:00

It's the internet. White knights are overwhelming EVERYTHING that isn't 100% politically correct.

2012-07-04T18:23:21+00:00

My dad met my mom when she was engaged. He stole her from him because as it turned out, he was abusive. Worked out pretty well for me.

FUCK YOU INTERNET WHITE KNIGHTS

paki123 · 2012-07-03T23:26:28+00:00

Seriously, it seems like Seddit has been tried to become PC. Seduction has no room for moral judgement, you gotta be amoral.

BurnerSkunk · 2012-07-03T23:11:57+00:00

Monogamy.. meh.. Overrated imo.

Dr_Velociraptor_PHD · 2012-07-04T02:42:41+00:00

I've read through most of the comments here, and with a few exceptions like portmanteu's comments, I'm seeing a distressing level of polarizing dialogue based on shallow dualities. "White Knights" versus "PUAs". "AFCs" versus "sedditors". "Honor" versus "douchebaggery." And my favorite "beta" versus "alpha".

This sort of oversimplification neither enriches the discussion nor does it even strike at any kind of better understanding of the issues at hand. It reeks of chest thumping and tribalism.

"Clan Don't Give a Fuck is far superior to your Honorable Sods!"

Frankly I'm a little shocked that a community full of people who claim they are on a journey of self improvement so readily subscribe to such limiting dialogue. True enough, sorting the world into categories helps us simplify and understand the world at times. But it can be a vastly limiting belief.

A great deal of you speak of AFC, honor and White Knights with disdain. Many have simply lumped the three together. All white knights have honor and are AFCs. Unlike us PUAs, we're so much more advanced, we see the world for what it is.

Many are claiming they want a seddit free of moral discrimination, but in the next breath decry those who have a foolish seeming honor code as though they're lesser people for it. That is still applying YOUR moral code over someone else's, and I humbly ask you investigate that.

I hope some people on here are familiar with A Song of Fire and Ice. In "A Game of Thrones" the character Ned Stark perfectly illuminates both the point some of you made about being a scrub and improperly playing "The game", as well as a man of honor. And fuck you if you don't think he's alpha as all hell.

In his kingdom, real men have honor. Ned has a great deal of guilt over siring a bastard because it conflicted with his honor. Down south, King Robert has no such qualms. In fact, when Ned goes south and no one plays by the rules of honor things go badly for him.

He doesn't 'get it'. He's basically a chump when it comes to politics without honor. Yet, he staunchly refuses to go against his code. And really, he's one of a very small handful of characters that is truly likable without a complication.

I agree that this subreddit is not about moral proselytizing. And hence I downvoted everyone in the thread OP links to when they got sidetracked by morality, because that wasn't the point. In this thread, we've made it a point to ask about morality here.

Now, we can talk about a million aspects of morality, but I'd like to focus on how it's a tool we use to control perceptions of ourselves. After all, personal inner tools used to tailor our outward appearances are a cornerstone of this subreddit. Just like good posture, eye contact, eliminating any vestige of neediness, working on your personal sense of morality is critical to how people end up looking back on you.

I had a seven year relationship break up because a man pursued my SO for weeks. Eventually she broke down and fucked him. Now, yes, the relationship was having troubles, but she ended up really feeling bad about what she did. It hurt her conception of who she was and it destroyed both a long relationship and an intense best friendship because she couldn't face me with pride and I couldn't trust her ever again.

In the end, she didn't think that highly of the guy she slept with. He had seemed so charming at the time, but eventually she started kinda taking shots at him. I think she was mad that he had taken one of her favorite traits away: she was always intensely proud of her honesty and steadfastness.

Now, this issue is obviously more complicated than I can get in, but I'd like to focus on the fact that in the end no one ended up much happier as a direct result of this man's lack of traditional "honor". I don't hate him...how can I? I barely know a fucking thing about him. But he didn't get her, she ended up not respecting him. I'm doing fucking well now, I'm even kinda glad it happened, but it hurt for awhile. And she lost a lot of self respect. Maybe she got it back now...but I don't know her anymore.

The point is, at least consider what your moral code does for you before you all leap so mightily to cleave to the tribal doctrine of your "group". Would you like to be the guy that was remembered as that guy that was charming, witty, funny but a douchebag (she even called him that after a bit)? Or would turning down the girl who REALLY had a SO and being remembered as that guy she remembered as charming, witty funny and so nice....boy...I wonder what he's doing now that I'm single.

And I'm only asking. I can't tell you one or the other is better, only which I would prefer. But remember that your moral code and behavior ABSOLUTELY is a core part of your tool set, and vastly effects how people eventually perceive you. So, discussing that acting with "honor" will make you lose more often at the seduction game (and the Game of Thrones ;) is valid, but I'd prefer people not so hastily go on the war path against certain moral standpoints.

TL;DR Morality is just one of many tools that help project how others view you. Are you comfortable with the result?

nicklestutor · 2012-07-04T15:59:48+00:00

There's only one reason I don't seduce women with boyfriends anymore.

I don't like having my shit ruined, my life threatened, my money stolen, or dealing with punk ass boyfriends who can't get over the fact their girls like jumping on my dick.

It only takes one emotional dude with a gun to coax my address out of his cheating girlfriend to figure out where I live.

And I can really only talk so many dudes out of attacking me before one of them decides, "fuck listening to you", and goes for the kill.

It's all about safety, and avoiding drama.

Fucking girls who have boyfriends will eventually kill you if you're not smart about it.

koolaidman123 · 2012-07-04T02:56:35+00:00

The way I look at it is this:

this subreddit gives you the power to pickup women, but it's your choice how you wish to use that power. Everyone might have different opinions on what to do in a certain situation, but the important thing is to focus on the act of the pickup itself, not some ethical/moral dilemmas that surrounds it.

fish619407 · 2012-07-04T01:10:12+00:00

People will forget this post in a nano second and go back to white knighting.

MrJekel · 2012-07-04T11:21:51+00:00

It stands to reason that a lot of people here had a string of bad experiences with woman, this probably included being cheated on. It makes sense that a guy would have a strong negative reaction to a "how-to" discussion on having sex with a woman who has a boyfriend or husband.

Additionally, the more subscribers seddit gets, the more white knights it gets, and white knights are a vocal bunch.

And finally, I do think a certain amount of moral judgment is in order. The initial streak of success makes a guy drunk with power, and everyone here knows exactly what I'm talking about.

skyshock · 2012-07-04T01:22:33+00:00

Isnt going after someone thats taken one-itis? I sense a split into r/seduction for normal people and r/seduction for homewreckers.

Dinosaur_Boner · 2012-07-03T23:38:21+00:00

Pussy-ass bitches gotta get their head out of disney's ass. In the real world, slutting around (for both sexes) can be a good thing. Hit on whoever the fuck you want because it's the hittee's responsibility to say no.

RedErin · 2012-07-04T13:49:12+00:00

How "White Knight" is used as a slur to silence men."

iLoginToComment · 2012-07-04T16:35:33+00:00

Yes. And by "White Knights" you mean pussies, right?

jwal245 · 2012-07-04T04:55:53+00:00

Honestly, with all the different methods in the PUA community, there really isn't a necessarily right or wrong answer. Yes, there may be conflicting ideologies within Seddit, but that is where we get our strength as people who sarge. All these different thought processes guarantee the best results possible. Yes,there will inevitably be arguments, but as long as you're willing to sift through the horse shit, you will always find the answer that helps you the most

fuck_happy_the_cow · 2012-07-04T10:42:44+00:00

someone doesn't have to make a person cheat to steal them away. If you are the better person for them, so be it. Also, there is no force involved. Cheating is: something you should have worked on harder to have your SO not do, something you have no control over your SO doing regardless of the relationship, or a combination of the two.

Murmaider · 2012-07-03T21:04:12+00:00

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Iamagrocerybag · 2012-07-04T04:53:46+00:00

I like how the majority of comments are obvious white knights. Makes me wonder what the fuck happened, reddit just must be full of pussies.

Freevoulous · 2012-07-04T07:47:26+00:00

I cant upvote this post enough.

testmypatience · 2012-07-03T21:15:24+00:00

Here's an example of what I'm talking about, from the current top post. Woman tells guy she has a boyfriend, and anyone who suggests he escalate anyway is downvoted into oblivion.

That isn't a white knight. That is being a person that isn't going to be ok with a guy pushing a girl that has a bf to cheat. Be awesome, not a douche.

Wollff · 2012-07-04T07:29:10+00:00

Woman tells guy she has a boyfriend, and anyone who suggests he escalate anyway is downvoted into oblivion.

Oh yes. Downvoted into oblivion.

The top comments beyond the one you linked:

Hi. You must be new here.

Really? Bro code works for bros, not for guys I haven't even met.

What the fuck is the "bro code" nonsense?

I don't know I'm ambivalent on that one, if she is hitting on you I kind of think it is ok.

So yes, what a concerning flood of whiteknighting that is flooding the subreddit. /drama

chaoticjacket · 2012-07-04T05:43:02+00:00

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AltHypo · 2012-07-04T04:16:32+00:00

For some of us, that may be gaining enough confidence with women to get into a monogamous LTR with the girl of our dreams.

And that dream girl may currently have some ass boyfriend. "What does that have to do with me?"

gunkers · 2012-07-04T09:58:21+00:00

Please please to the fucking top with you. Yes.

ihateredditor · 2012-07-04T09:54:08+00:00

how the fuck is not being a raging shithead douche bag some how the same as being a white knight?

DocHopper · 2012-07-04T04:05:03+00:00

I'm so glad this was addressed. Fuck all these new losers.

silverionmox · 2012-07-04T06:49:39+00:00

As long as they aren't to disruptive, it's up to them to choose towards which goal to apply the techniques they learn.

choc_is_back · 2012-07-04T14:10:15+00:00

My 2 cents, royally late in the thread but whatever: I generally don't like to hook up with women with a boyfriend, because even if in the moment they totally want it, I know they will very likely regret it afterwards. Not to mention that I do try not to hurt people, and that includes her boyfriend, yes, even though I don't know them. I try to be nice to strangers, and to me that includes trying to resist making out with their g/f.

Plenty of wonderful single girls to go around anyway. Go for those, save yourself lots of potential drama.

2012-07-04T19:22:41+00:00

Morality is extremely relevant here. Don't fuck girls in relationships. It's as simple as that. Don't be a prick.

dantaeos · 2012-07-05T04:35:22+00:00

It's cause mos of seddit is internet chodes who think the yknow shit about pick up because they the game. The vats majority does not know the meanign of everyday beasting ,huge abundance pure man to woman relations. Doing all thatchanges your midnset completely, as opposed to "omg i approached a girl on the bus, FR!!!".

Title	Are white knights overwhelming Seddit?
Author	idontseddit
Upvotes	516
Comments	289
Date	July 3, 2012 7:47 PM UTC (14 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/seduction
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/seduction/comments/vzt6a/are_white_knights_overwhelming_seddit/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/seduction/are-white-knights-overwhelming-seddit.1335079 https://theredarchive.com/post/1335079

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