In the VP debate, Paul Ryan said they'd make abortion illegal, except in cases of rape. Wouldn't that result in women, who are no longer able to get an abortion otherwise, falsely accusing men of raping them?

Drainedsoul · 2012-10-12T09:14:40+00:00

This position is a ridiculous emotion based cop out and is one of the reasons I dislike doctrinaire Republicans.

If the fetus is a person, and abortion is wrong when done solely for the reason of convenience, why does it become not wrong solely because the fetus is the result of rape?

Does the rape make the fetus less of a person?

Either a fetus is a person, and abortion is wrong, or a fetus is not a person, and abortion is not wrong. Saying that a fetus is a person and that accordingly abortion is wrong unless it was begotten by rape is just caving to the emotion and irrationality surrounding rape and other grievous crimes.

Quite the opposite of their intentions, this irrational middle ground makes their position less palatable, not more so.

Stephen_Morgan · 2012-10-12T08:54:29+00:00

Probably, but you're making two basic mistakes: believing the US President could make abortion illegal, and believing Ryan and company have an intention of doing anything they claim.

kragshot · 2012-10-12T13:29:11+00:00

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EvilPundit · 2012-10-12T08:54:36+00:00

Did Ryan actually say that? What were his exact words?

BuffaloBounce · 2012-10-12T16:05:16+00:00

Yes it would and it has. Before roe vs. wade, if you wanted an abortion, you had to find a compassionate doctor and convince him you were raped. (Or find an unscrupulous doctor and give him lots of hush money.) this system resulted in a lot of "rapes".

I don't like to think of abortion and birth control as women's issues so much as I think of them as heterosexual human's issues.

campushippo · 2012-10-12T13:39:36+00:00

My issue is that his stance is not "Pro-Life". It is "Anti-Abortion". There's a huge difference. Studies are repeatedly showing that access to free birth control lowers the number of abortions. So if people are actually pro-life, why isn't lowering the number of abortions their primary goal? Criminalizing abortions, while possibly (though I have my doubts) having the effect OP describes here, will also result in black market abortions. Without being able to regulate sanitation or even medical background, a lot of fetuses and their mothers are at risk of dying in back alley abortions. Criminalizing abortion isn't going to stop it. In fact, abortion rates are higher in countries where it is illegal. The whole thing seems very suspect to me. Pro-life politicians claim to be concerned about preserving life. But then why refuse to approach the situation practically and actually do things that would lower the rate of abortion, like provide access to birth control? It's almost as if they don't want to implement any programs that would actually fix anything, because then they wouldn't be able to argue about easily fixed bullshit like this to distract their voter bases from the real sources of our problems like our economic plan and our foreign policy.

dumbguyscene28 · 2012-10-12T08:55:10+00:00

Here is a huffpo article where he is quote as saying

but the policy of a Romney administration will be to oppose abortion with the exceptions for rape, incest and life of the mother."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/11/biden-ryan-debate-abortion_n_1960078.html WARNING LINK GOES TO HUFFPO

So unfinite, my guess is that you are right, that such a policy would result in an increase of rape claims.

For instance before no fault divorce, married couples wanting a divorce would often collude and make claims that the husband was beating the wife in order to get a divorce.

If we could jump between universes, it might be interesting to measure what happens to rape claims in two universes, one with an Obama administration and one with a Romney administration.

If Romney is elected, in the event that anything happens to Roe and Romney and Ryan are able to effect changes in how states deal with abortion, it will be interesting to see what happens to rape claims and other statistics about abortions in the various states.

Hypersapien · 2012-10-12T13:44:27+00:00

Falsely claiming to have been raped doesn't necessarily mean that you are fingering a specific guy and claiming that he did it.

captainmcr · 2012-10-12T14:34:58+00:00

Nah it wasn't just cases of rape he listed two others as well.

Pups_the_Jew · 2012-10-12T17:51:07+00:00

Yes it would, and then they will remove the rape exemption. Then they will claim that sympathetic doctors are fabricating medical necessity and they will do away with that.

whiteout69 · 2012-10-12T18:55:04+00:00

Yes and let's not forget that Roe v. Wade was over a false rape accusation.

smp501 · 2012-10-12T19:14:41+00:00

On a purely ideological level, I find the "no abortion except in cases of rape" position to be absolutely repugnant. Pro-life people believe that the embryo is fully a person, and pro-choice people believe that it is not yet a until certain points in development. The half-way argument, however, claims that fetuses ARE people and should be protected, but if they are conceived through rape then they are not worth saving.

Back to the OP: Yes, I believe there will be more cases of women claiming they changed their mind half-way through or that the man raped them.

Again, this is on a purely ideological level. I don't think the president even can do anything about abortion in America, and even if they could, I can't believe that Romney/Ryan would do it because they said they would.

JockeVXO · 2012-10-12T19:43:37+00:00

Yes, it would probably result in a rise in false accusations. It is also a hypocritical view to hold: The foetus has a right to life, unless it was conceived through rape...

Anyway, can the president and the VP just revoke Roe v. Wade? Doesn't it have to go through congress and whatnot?

cuteman · 2012-10-12T19:45:05+00:00

Yep, which is where the tetm legitimate rape comes from. But it gets associated with that idiot that says the body can reject pregnancy.

The original usage I saw was as you describe. Government funded abortions in cases of rape, and all of a sudden those women who don't want to spend 300 on an abortion get one for free by saying they were raped. Consequences are unimportant if people think they can get something for free they will. Hell, you see this in some places where women don't want to pay taxi fares, saying they were assaulted to get out of it.

DavidByron · 2012-10-12T14:03:27+00:00

Well if you want a real answer you need to look at countries where this is already the law. Despite feminist protestations about coat hangers and the image of bloody violence dating from the 60s technology has moved on these days. For middle class women the answer might be to take a little vacation to Canada or a nice American-style foreigners hospital in Mexico. Or they could take a simple mix of chemicals that they order over the internet and receive through the mail. For the poor and those without the education to monitor and self-administer an abortifactent, the choices will remain as limited as they are today with limited access. I don't expect a big increase in false rape charges although I suppose it is possible, but if so they would be non-specific (not targeting a particular man).

I often think MRAs should campaign with a symbol of a baseball bat with a red circle and X, like the feminists coat hanger stuff. Men's only way to get an abortion is similarly to resort to bloody violence in violation of the law, today in 2012 not fifty years ago. A man would have to take a baseball bat to his former lover's abdomen. To me that seems a lot nastier than fucking around with a coat hanger, but in any case, not necessary today, for the woman.

ETA: I forget many Redditors are very young. No, there's no way in hell the Republicans will make abortion illegal. If they had wanted to they could have done that under Bush.

rightsbot · 2012-10-12T08:48:18+00:00

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Canadian4Paul · 2012-10-12T13:32:13+00:00

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2012-10-12T14:43:32+00:00

oneiorosgrip · 2012-10-12T15:03:39+00:00

There was no way for me to cover this topic with a comment. The questions raised by this really merited more of a statement than would fit here, so I've placed it in my blog, even though it only loosely fits the blog's theme.

To Legislate or not to Legislate? Rape complicates the question.

disso · 2012-10-12T15:09:45+00:00

Taken from: http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_duep.html

The Roe v Wade abortion decision declared a Texas law in violation of due process and ruled that in the first trimester, it is unreasonable for a state to interfere with a woman's right to an abortion; during the second trimester, it is reasonable for a state to regulate abortion in the interest of the health of mothers; and in the third, the state has a reasonable interest in protecting the fetus. Another application has been to strike down legislation requiring certain non-dangerous mentally ill persons be confined against their will.

astitious2 · 2012-10-12T16:04:11+00:00

Republicans will outlaw abortion like Democrats will give us Universal Healthcare. Both parties like to pander big but they enjoy the status quo way too much to change it.

2012-10-12T17:43:32+00:00

It could be true for a year or so, before people realize that a lot of false accusations will start to make the news. The case of the middle lineback form USC comes to my mind. I have seen it in the papers and on TV.

gliscameria · 2012-10-12T18:32:10+00:00

Absolutely.

You can't dilute yourself into thinking that if you were a teen and you found out that you were pregnant that you wouldn't at least consider throwing someone under the bus to clear it all up. You've got your family potentially disowning you and the slut shame to deal with... now you have to weigh in your entire future... that's a reallllly shitty spot to be in.

We'd all like to think that we'd do the right thing, but reality can be stronger than morals.

LooReed · 2012-10-12T19:20:29+00:00

your thought process is impressive. it is people like you who really blow me away in terms of your ability to understand and decipher something, and then make educated guesses as to what could possibly happen. personally, i think you are right, yes. that is just anther reason why i hate paul ryan

2012-10-12T21:26:52+00:00

Possibly. Might be time to get fixed so that they can't.

bearhammer · 2012-10-12T22:03:01+00:00

I'm just going to start paying for sex with a written agreement that states it was consensual.

The_Cake_Is_A_Lie · 2012-10-12T23:47:39+00:00

Because of the time limits involved, no guy would actually be convicted of rape before the decision to have an abortion would have to be made.

So he just wants an accusation. I suggest everybody accuse Paul Ryan of rape every time they want an abortion.

2012-10-12T23:58:59+00:00

Well, there's a bunch of problems with such a system, but false accusations getting to courts aren't too much of a worry, as long as they're confidential, which any respectable clinic will be.

The big problem is the clinics being too stringent with bureaucracy or too lax. It will work just like medicinal marijuana. People who need it won't get it, and people who don't fall into the criteria will get it.

I think abortion should be legal everywhere, and there shouldn't be this bullshit rape statute. The fact is, for many women, abortion is a private matter that should not be regulated by the government.

2gig · 2012-10-13T00:29:02+00:00

There was already a period of time when this was law (in some states), and what you described is exactly what happened.

mayonesa · 2012-10-13T02:45:07+00:00

Wouldn't that result in women, who are no longer able to get an abortion otherwise, falsely accusing men of raping them?

It could just as likely make women take more precautions to ensure that they are in situations where they have given consent, instead of leaving the situation ambiguous and deciding the next day.

I doubt they're going to claim rape for an unwanted child. More likely they'll demand child support. That's why it is important to remove the obligation for men to support children they father without the explicit intent of the man to do so.

2012-10-13T03:22:45+00:00

I don't think the "abortion is illegal except in cases of rape" position is acceptable no matter who looks at it. If you're a person who thinks life begins at conception, then abortion in the case of rape is still murder, isn't it? You can't kill a child for the sins of the father. And if you don't believe life begins at conception, then there's no reason to make abortion illegal in the common circumstance.

So who exactly thinks this is a good idea, and what exactly are their reasons for doing so? I don't get it.

SleepingOnMoonshine · 2012-10-13T04:38:14+00:00

Perhaps.... But it would be rare. I don't think many women would stoop so low.

mail323 · 2012-10-13T04:44:59+00:00

How does this not contradict Roe v Wade?

Jess_than_three · 2012-10-13T09:16:24+00:00

In the VP debate, Paul Ryan said they'd make abortion illegal, except in cases of rape. Isn't this dangerous because women are all emotionally bankrupt sociopathic liars who are willing to destroy men's lives to get what they want?

Pretty sure that's what your title says, in a nutshell.

No, it wouldn't result in some sort of crazy epidemic of women doing that, because women by and large aren't emotionally bankrupt sociopathic liars who are willing to destroy men's lives to get what they want.

billywms · 2012-10-13T20:22:04+00:00

Are you kidding me? A woman falsely accused a man of rape & sent him to jail for 5 years because she was bored. Yes, it would almost certainly result in more false rape claims.

killyourego · 2012-10-14T07:27:18+00:00

President can't do dick about abortion, son. Abortion is a wedge issue they use to distract the populace.

jack_el_destapador · 2012-10-18T07:20:59+00:00

Yes it would. I hope they make abortion illegal so that there can be another uptick in false rape accusations and that henceforth 90% of all rape accusations are false.

jgj09 · 2012-10-12T13:34:14+00:00

Probably, but coming from Ryan's point of view, that is the only position that makes sense.

Think about it, Ryan believes that human life begins at conception. Thus no matter if the intercourse is rape or not, to Ryan, at conception, the baby is a human being.

It's the only logical position for him to have if he believes life begins at conception.

And I agree with you, the false rape claims would skyrocket

brerrabbitt · 2012-10-12T14:50:54+00:00

Doesn't it also point out that even the conservatives do not hold hold all fetuses sacred? This one is illegal to abort, this one is not.

A proper moral stance in this case would be to outlaw abortion in all cases if it is so sinful.

2012-10-12T16:15:22+00:00

Very good point, though it's not surprising that government law creates negative externalities

McFeely_Smackup · 2012-10-12T17:15:09+00:00

"...abortion illegal except in cases of rape"

Do you need any clearer statement of the disingenuousness of their position? If you're morally opposed to abortion because it's murder of an innocent child...what does rape change? Obviously it's a political concession to make their position a little bit more paletable to the general population.

Being 100% opposed to abortion is a morally defensible position...I don't agree, but I can understand the position. A watered down "except in the case of 'x' " is just bullshit that disqualifies the entire opinion for me as being worthy of discussion.

2012-10-12T13:41:15+00:00

Abortion is a scare tactic used in elections. It's an utter waste of political capital as it automatically squanders any bipartisan support an administration has.

The second anyone brings up abortion, it becomes the defining litmus test of all politicians and ruins chances that Romney could accomplish any agreement on tax reform with Democrats.

He doesn't need Congressional Approval to gut HHS support of Obamacare, but he does need it to make laws on abortion, or especially a right-to-life amendment that is a political impossibility.

You should reasonably be as afraid of this as the events of the movie 2012 unfolding.

AnnArchist · 2012-10-12T14:52:25+00:00

Yes. Along with many other negative consequences for men.

StealthNade · 2012-10-12T15:37:34+00:00

and you believe ANYTHING a politician says

boshin-goshin · 2012-10-12T16:03:19+00:00

Yes indeed, if the Republicans had any intention of following through on their BS promises to the rubes.

The Pro-Life swindle is the perfect recipe for keeping social conservatives in line, hungry, and unquestioningly supportive of Wall Street conservatism.

But yes, I think false accusations would explode in that scenario. Scary shit.

nathan8999 · 2012-10-12T17:03:26+00:00

Despite another incentive to claim rape, feminist will still say "rape has the same percentage of false reports as any other crime".

OuiCrudites · 2012-10-12T17:06:34+00:00

I'm pro-choice, but this argument is basically making excuses for female false rape accusation privilege.

Whisper · 2012-10-12T20:36:02+00:00

The Republicans have no interest in doing anything of the sort. They don't hate sex, they don't hate gays, they don't hate abortion. Hell, some of them are secretly gay. They just pretend to be stuck in the 18th century on social issues to court the christian fundamentalist vote... the fundamentalists are the useful idiots of the Republican party, who can be counted to vote for them forever despite never getting what they want.
If you really believe that abortion is murder, why on earth would you make an exception in cases of rape? Surely your unborn daughter is innocent of her parents' crimes?
No one really gives a crap about the rights of the unborn... they can't speak for themselves, and don't vote. Any real opposition to abortion is motivated by a desire to punish sex. Otherwise, they'd be preventing abortion by giving out birth control devices.

SDcowboy82 · 2012-10-13T02:53:09+00:00

Sometimes, but only women who have no or very little sense of guilt would do that.

AtheistConservative · 2012-10-12T14:09:37+00:00

While possibly true, it doesn't mean that abortion should be legal. If we actually investigated crimes, and punished those who lied, this really wouldn't be an issue.

nanowerx · 2012-10-12T14:48:13+00:00

Come on, we have Roe v. Wade on the books and it isn't going anywhere soon. You don't agree with the Romney/Ryan ideas on abortion, that is fine, but realize there is nothing they can do about it...it is simply their personal stance.

Please don't turn this subreddit into the tripe you see in r/feminism

mayorHB · 2012-10-12T20:05:53+00:00

Lie and ruin another person's life so you can murder a baby?....you stay classy ladies.

Peil · 2012-10-12T20:14:41+00:00

This is what made me realise that abortion will have to be legal. I hate abortion, it is disgusting to me and feminists saying it's their right because it's their body disgusts me, I actually feel physically sick. Well it may be yours, but you've got another inside you, and just because they're powerless doesn't mean you can destroy it.

While it is tragic, I would never force a raped woman to have a baby. But scumbags will always cheat the system, at best killing a child, at worst, killing it and destroying the father's life.

Abortion should be legal until 2 weeks in. Any more, and it's now an animal, instead of a cell or group of cells who, while it is kind of sad that the potential is for a baby is eliminated, really doesn't count. Just my take on it

goodeyesniper3221 · 2012-10-12T22:17:19+00:00

HAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA, he didn't say they would make it illegal you fucktard. He said they are going to cut funding for it, and stop the bullshit that ABORTIONS are okay. They don't like killing babies and neither should you!

L2Listen Newbs.

primaloath · 2012-10-12T09:42:24+00:00

I am 100% in favour of making abortion illegal, with the exception of incest, rape etc. The availability of easy abortion is one thing that drives the high age of marriage in the Western world and leads to more children being born with birth defects (not to mention more men living a decade or so of near-celibacy because the carousel-riders want to have their jollies with the bad boy crowd before they "settle").

As for more women making false rape allegations, well, y'know, with the development of male contraceptives and the availability of condoms, there's a pretty small chance that a couple will conceive the first few times they have sex. It would be much harder to prove your long-time boyfriend raped you than that some stranger did.

duglock · 2012-10-12T14:40:24+00:00

The Romney/Ryan platform is consistent with the beliefs of an overwhelming majority of Americans - including women.

NietzscheAdvice44 · 2012-10-12T18:38:28+00:00

NO you dumb shit

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