"Men's greatest fear in pursuing relationship with a woman is that he will be laughed at or rejected. Women's greatest fear is that she will be physically harmed-raped-killed." -Thoughts?

heretik · 2023-09-29T17:49:45+00:00

There are FAR worse things a woman can do than laugh at you and any male older than 12 knows this.

Current_Finding_4066 · 2023-09-29T17:32:07+00:00

Sounds like someone wants to downplay issues men are facing and making men seem like whiners. I think all men do not want to be victims of false allegations, abuse or many other issues men can face in a relationship.

hotpotato128 · 2023-09-29T17:42:38+00:00

That’s because these are even fears that are socialized into men and women. Realistically there are way worse things that can happen to men then an embarrassing rejection.

Title_IX_For_All · 2023-09-29T17:17:41+00:00

My go-to response/framing:

Yeah, of course some women fear that about men. Some white people fear that about black people, too, and often for the same reasons.

We have to start putting them on the back foot. And keep them there.

AMetal0xide · 2023-09-29T20:50:48+00:00

It's simple, it's far more likely to be laughed at and/or rejected than be murdered on a date. Thus, such humiliating social rejection on a date is a far more rational fear than being murdered on a date. Day to day, social rejection is a far more likely "threat" to the self than physical harm from others yet we as a society scoff at the idea that social rejection causes harm in the first place.

Luchadorgreen · 2023-09-30T01:22:39+00:00

I can do that too: you’re worried about police brutality, while I’m worried about the Earth being obliterated by a meteor.

I can downplay your concerns with my much more severe and catastrophic worry, by conveniently ignoring the fact that my concern is far less likely to actually happen.

It’s been studied and shown over and over that women are generally more fearful than men. That does not make all of their fears objectively legitimate or likely to occur.

excess_inquisitivity · 2023-09-29T17:37:21+00:00

There is a social safety net for women, from women-only scholarships and women-only science bonus/extracurricular STEM learning opportunities in gradedchools, to women-only domestic violence shelters and innumerable other soft responses (trafficking, violence, hunger, war, etc targeted "for women-and-children") that absolutely exclude men, in some shelters, male children are excluded because they are male.

If men's greatest fear is only rejection, note that rejection is from these social safety nets and inquire whether women would like to live without them as men are expected to do so.

Fuzzy_Department2799 · 2023-09-29T17:42:31+00:00

If i remember correctly that line came from a rabid feminist tweet several years ago. But it was catchy and they all latched onto it without thinking.

triple_skyfall · 2023-09-29T18:18:07+00:00

All they need to do is utilize Google and look at what percentage of homicide victims are men. Oh, 90%? Looks like men have much more to fear, fancy that.

2023-09-29T18:43:23+00:00

That's not accurate, a man's greatest fear is to be falsely accused of harassment and have his livelihood ruined.

country2poplarbeef · 2023-09-29T18:28:21+00:00

Men's greatest fear isn't being laughed at or rejected. It's being abused and exploited, only for your support network to laugh at you and reject you. A person's potential for abuse or to be exploited for abuse isn't really connected to gender. I've been physically and verbally abused, robbed, gaslighted to the point of nervous breakdowns (an ex staged a house robbery so she could keep the PS5 if we broke up, along with other... shenanigans), etc. And it's because I'm seen as a target for abuse, not because of my gender but because of how I perceive the world and how abusers pick up on that and exploit it. And so my fear, as a man, isn't that I'll just be laughed at and rejected. It's what I've experienced over and over again, which is that I'll be molested, beaten, gaslit, abandoned, and insulted, and then when I look for support, I'll be told that all these experiences were simply a right of passage and that I should cheer up because none of these things damaged me as much as they would anybody else that's not the dreaded, soulless cishet man.

The-Author · 2023-09-29T18:37:52+00:00

The first thing, as many other commenters have stated; there are far worse things a woman can do than simply laugh at/ reject you. Tricking you into paying 18 years of child support by poking a hole in your condom comes to mind.

Secondly, men being laughed at/ rejected is far more likely to actually happen than women being murdered. So what this quote is unintentionally saying is that men fear things that are reasonably likely to happen whilst women fear things, whilst worse, are far far less likely to actually happen to them.

MSHUser · 2023-09-29T20:57:45+00:00

If a women is legit thinking this she needs to ask herself some hard questions.

Why the hell am I so afraid.
Or what is wrong with me that I would date men who would do this to me. Because contrary to what feminist believe murder, rape and domestic violence aren't typical masculine behavior. Far from it.

2023-09-29T17:45:22+00:00

Yes men are stronger than women. No, we shouldn't use this fact as a tool to dismiss real issues men are dealing with. Also, I think it's another assumption. Are men really afraid to be laughed at? Maybe some. But I think there are more men that have bigger or deeper fears. But do we listen to these men? No, we fucking don't. As suicide rates in men clearly show us.

hotpotato128 · 2023-09-29T18:06:02+00:00

Men with low self-esteem are more negatively affected by rejection. Everyone dislikes rejection, which is different from fearing it.

sakura_drop · 2023-09-29T17:49:37+00:00

Thoughts? The statistics don't back it up. Which, when discussing basically anything to do with feminism, means it's a day ending in 'Y'.

friendlysouptrainer · 2023-09-29T17:24:55+00:00

Our brains are wired to fear social rejection because of the damage this can do. Pre-civilization humans lived in small communities. To be rejected from your community, to be ostracized and forced to fend for yourself in the wild was extremely dangerous. This is why the instinctual human response to social rejection can seem disproportionate in the modern world. Our natural fear responses correlate to the environmental and social conditions in which our ancestors evolved.

However, I would not expect this fear to be greater in men than in women. Women seem to be more socially conformative than men, whereas men on average are more likely to be willing to openly disagree and dispute a thing. I think there are subtle biological differences at play here that intersect with environmental conditions in complex ways to create these patterns that our brains perceive.

Anecdotally, I confess I am somewhat familiar with the sub you have linked and it is my experience that they are not interested in questioning their beliefs on such matters. I've noticed the feminist message there always beneath the surface, occasionally out in the open. It sucks the soul out of it. It's easy to speculate on the crossover between a political ideology that seeks to emasculate and disempower men and a kink that does much the same thing.

It's also disturbing to me how some of the women there don't seem to see it as a playful game so much as a way of life... like it's more than just a kink for them. I'd like to really explore the psychology at play there and understand it further, it has intrigued me for a while. How connected is politics to bdsm, and is abuse of power overlooked in femdom due to the perception of women as the more vulnerable sex? I'd love to hear thoughts from others on this.

DevilishRogue · 2023-09-29T20:53:06+00:00

This speaks to how seriously each sex takes the idea of risk to themselves. Women take a tiny chance of physical harm incredibly seriously because although the risk is negligible, it is the only risk they face and so the one they focus on. Men are far more likely to experience a false accusation that destroys their life (like the Mattress Girl thing) than a woman is to experience any physical harm (let alone be murdered) or emotional harm, but men don't focus on that because a far more likely risk is that they will have their soul crushed and confidence destroyed on a whim for anything from having an android phone or not expensive enough watch to choosing a venue she doesn't like for the date.

matrixislife · 2023-09-29T21:28:39+00:00

There's been plenty of men harmed and killed by women they were in relationships with. Bobbit ring a bell? Women are well represented in the DV sweepstakes.
As usual it's just a soundbite that sounds great in the media but when you look at it it's just another load of crap.

henrysmyagent · 2023-09-29T22:19:52+00:00

Not even remotely true.

People respond in an affirmative manner when confronted with life endangerment.

Skydiving is inherently dangerous. Most people eschew this outdoor activity. These who participate are obvious risk takers, but they do check their gear and the plane they jump out of.

The vast majority of women engage in this supposedly life-threatening endeavor called dating with hardly a second glance at their potential mate.

Do they use a checklist? Do they ask for references? Do they check his employment history? Do they investigate his family and friends?

No, no they don't.

Sure, some women do take some minor precautions like meeting in public or telling friends who they are meeting...but does that sound even remotely as rigorous as a preflight check, or a parachute check?

This just copium.

Averzan · 2023-09-29T21:57:15+00:00

That women should not be taken seriously if they believe that. It's not surprising, women score higher in vulnerable narcissism and in neuroticism, even when they are totally safe they will cry they feel insecure and in danger.

WesternIron · 2023-09-29T18:13:58+00:00

I feel like i post this alot when this comment gets brought up:

Getting raped/murdered by a stranger is extremely rare. Most of the time its a friend or family member or partner. The guy going you are going to get coffee with with, has like a 1-2% of wanting to harm you. As opposed to your brother who has like a 50% chance(being a bit hyperbolic here, those aren't the actual stats).

And to add more to this, you are more likely to be killed by a stranger as a man than you are if you are women.

Also that user is arguing for biological essentialism, they need their feminism card revoked if they are claiming to be one.

ParanoidAgnostic · 2023-09-29T23:48:23+00:00

Let's assume that the quote is true. It certainly feels truthy enough to become a feminist mantra.

This is a perfect illustration of the power women hold over men, invalidating the female oppression narratives pushed by the same feminists who recite this.

Men fear the judgement of women more than death.

StarZax · 2023-09-30T01:20:05+00:00

Risk perception is very different for men and women, basically. It's been stated by countless studies for years now. I've seen some studies and complaints about how usually it's not really linked to gender theory or something, and it's actually kinda laughable. It's stated that this risk perception difference is true for literally the whole planet, yet it's american/western/liberal women that are the most afraid. The risk perception is fucked up, if you are really afraid of men in general you are sick and you need to go to therapy.

So the fact that there are people trying to link that gender roles supposedly make women more fearful is just complete non-sense since we're basically getting rid of those and women perceive risk worse than before, ideologues trying to do research is such a joke.

It's also funny how they just took a funny quote and now they use it like a catchphrase. Because you know, women can't do fucked up shit. In fact, no man has ever been afraid of a woman. They just confirm every time that they don't know jack shit about men. If we know you're fucked up, of course we're going to be afraid. If we aren't fucked up and you're still afraid, it's a you problem tho. If I've known some black guys who did me wrong, should I be cuddled into thinking that it's fine to be afraid of black people ?

It's just very very weird to be afraid of men in general. Says more about you than anything else.

2023-09-29T19:29:18+00:00

The best response is the one the conforms to reality. This quote is centered on fear, but not on reality. Statistics make clear that in reality, men are far more likely to be killed than women, women's fears notwithstanding.

Maybe men should be a little more fearful than they are, or women less, but that's none of my business.

Edit: To put this in perspective, I'd like to contrast this with the violent crime victimization for trans people. There is a lot of light being disproportionately shown on this area, but this is truly justified as trans people are victimized by violent crime at 4x the rate of cis people. If trans people were merely afraid of being attacked but with no significant difference, it would not be.

MSHUser · 2023-09-29T19:30:26+00:00

Yeah it sucks that women have to worry about that, but men also have to worry about a lot of other things, including a higher chance of being murdered overall. Ultimately I would be happy to trade male fears for female fears, you can't just focus on one particular area where women are in a worse position and ignore everything else.

MachoManShark · 2023-09-29T21:55:02+00:00

i'm not sure we should even accept that bad relationships are more likely to be deadly to women than to men.

suicides are ~2x as common as homicides in the us, and both loneliness and relationship problems are notable predictors of suicide. i only spent ~5 minutes searching, but i couldn't find any hard numbers, such as how much these factors increase one's risk of suicide, or what percent of suicides have these factors present.

it is unclear to me if anyone can confidently claim that the majority of deaths due to domestic violence are homicides, and if we throw in suicides due to loneliness and the fact that many homicides are committed in self-defense, and i really don't know how someone can say that women are at greater risk than men.

~

changing direction somewhat, i wonder what proportion of women who date men (ie, not lesbians and 'cels) take on the male courtship role, and do things like asking out, planning dates, and all that.

i think it's safe to assume that doing this will expand their dating pool, especially to include low aggression men who wouldn't ask the woman out.

but many women don't take this opportunity. perhaps because the prospect of rejection is frightening, especially to someone who's never experienced it before? just conjecture, but i think women also fear ridicule.

~

anyway, i think this line is nothing more than some snappy womenworsting, and fails to tell us anything besides the author's own fear of crime and lack of familiarity with men.

nerdboy1r · 2023-09-29T22:33:19+00:00

I've always taken issue with this line. It's essentially meaningless.

Women may fear approaching men for those reasons, but the likelihood of harm is incredibly low when compared to the potential to be 'laughed at.' I also think women are just as fearful of rejection, if not more so. We can also recognise that some women react extremely poorly to rejection, albeit without the propensity for violence.

Women are also rarely the ones to initiate overt pursuit of a man. Not because of fear, but because of social norms and expectations. So again, this line has very little significance. Apples to oranges.

But my final, main frustration, is with the reduction of men's to experiences to being 'laughed at'. What does that really mean? It refers to the extremely common experience of men's rejection, whereby they are ridiculed for even believing that they had a chance. It refers to some women's propensity to intentially shame, humiliate, and insult men. It refers to reputation destruction. These things are by far more common than the harms women experience on the rare instances that they initiate romantic pursuit.

There is research demonstrating the effects of reputation destruction and humiliation in promoting suicidal ideation and social withdrawal.

I am not blaming women for these harms, but rather the social norms that underpin this dynamic. I would also point out more generally that men, when approaching men, have an equal or greater risk of violent harm. In sum, it is actually men who have more reason to be fearful of approaching women, yet this is not socially permissible, thus confounding the survey that OPs line supposedly derives from.

Digger_is_taken · 2023-09-29T21:10:09+00:00

Men get raped plenty.

LeotheLiberator · 2023-09-29T23:03:22+00:00

My greatest fears is that she's got a psycho ex, racist family, or lying about her sti status.

Saerain · 2023-09-29T23:39:59+00:00

Classic, and cognitively true, but the problem is how out of proportion these fears are with the data.

For example women's fear of "going to my car at night" is a fear of something far more likely to happen to men, and more likely to injure or kill men.

Feminists will typically try to spin this with "but the perpetrators are men, the problem is still men!" as if they're not entirely honest about their motives and values.

2023-09-30T01:06:20+00:00

The phrase conveniently ignores how women kill.

quokka29 · 2023-09-30T01:57:45+00:00

With a statement like this, thinking of the person who said it (author Margaret Atwood), I think- how did you come to that conclusion? How do you know this is the case….is this conclusion based on thorough research or just ya know vibes?

DrewYetti · 2023-09-30T06:11:53+00:00

That’s just made up feminist propaganda to place women in the victim position and to gaslight men into believing their fears and issues are less important.

BreakThings99 · 2023-09-30T10:45:07+00:00

Women's greatest fear in the workplace is that they will be paid less

Men's greatest fear is that they will be killed

Two can play this game.

Foxsayy · 2023-09-30T12:58:56+00:00

Absolutely not. I just had a conversation the other day about dating with a couple other guys I didn't even know previously and all of us were concerned about false accusations, being baby trapped, reputation ruining, etc. Why, because we've seen it happen, or we've had women try to do it to us and just barely miss.

But men's issues aren't valid.

kuavi · 2023-09-29T22:13:39+00:00

Clearly that person has never tried dating in Colombia lol.

Scopolamine is a scary drug.

alfredo094 · 2023-09-29T22:41:42+00:00

Which one do you think is actually more likely to happen in a regular interaction?

AleksandrNevsky · 2023-09-30T02:20:14+00:00

I hate that axiom because it's bullshit. It's meant to obscure and downplay the reality of male-female interactions. It's one of those things that people who think men in all areas are "privileged" as if societal roles are measured on a one dimensional axis.

My greatest fear in a relationship is dating another date rapist in waiting. Or dating a functional diagnosis and not finding out how bad it is until it's too late. I've seen enough of these case second or third hand to be wary and know they'll face next to no consequences if I'm harmed in anyway. This sort of saying is used by the people that don't think a man can be raped or that misandry isn't real. That is a totally warped sense of reality that's disturbingly common.

dr_pepper02 · 2023-09-30T07:21:17+00:00

Women fear rejection because it hurts their ego when they’ve been catered to almost their entire lives.

Women can use the media, police, courts, accusations/victimhood and rumors to cause violence against others particularly men. Female proxy violence is purposely ignored.

BloomingBrains · 2023-09-30T07:55:44+00:00

I'm sure that's true. Most women probably do fear that. But what really matters is whether that fear is justified or not. (Its not).

This is an important conversation because "but we're afraid of rape tho" is the arguement a feminist will immediately spurt out when discussing dating culture from a male-sympathetic perspective. Its the endless rebuttal because, what do men have to complain about? Hurt feelings? Rape is obviously worse. Well, yes of course, but only if the rate at which both happen is actually comparable (its not).

The irony is that they will easily switch gears and talk about the importance of mental health services and how men need to open up more and address their feelings, but when we do its "oh did your fee-fees get hurt? Too bad I'm getting raped." Even though a tiny, tiny minority of women are attacked by men, meanwhile most men struggle with emotional issues caused by the expectations of society.

Its like saying because X people die every year from drowning, people dying of thirst in the desert shouldn't drink water.

neighborhoodpainter · 2023-09-30T08:58:23+00:00

The origins of this quote seems to have its own "lore". I remember reading some comments on YouTube saying that, based on a survey of what men and women fear most in their partners in relationships, men are afraid of women laughing at them, women are afraid of men killing them.

hendrixski · 2023-09-30T12:12:24+00:00

Men are 5x more likely to be victims of violence than women are. It's pretty rich to lecture the primary victims of violence that somebody else is afraid of violence despite facing an 80% lower risk of violence. IMHO That quote is insulting to victims of violence.

Phantombiceps · 2023-09-30T17:33:29+00:00

When a man confronts a woman, he implicitly confronts the state, the community, and several unknown men whether family, lovers or exes. The death risk isn’t lower.

MSHUser · 2025-01-22T15:28:50+00:00

[permanently deleted]

NefariousnessMost660 · 2023-09-30T02:43:55+00:00

I was the biggest class clown in my middle school. Granted, I was an attention whore, but I loved making people laugh.

AnhedoniaRecovery · 2023-09-30T05:49:46+00:00

Idk my greatest fear is being raped-killed too. That or seeing someone I love die again.

Garfish16 · 2023-09-30T07:10:25+00:00

My biggest fear in pursuing a relationship with a woman is that she is going to expect me to kill spiders for her. Kill your own damn spiders. Better yet leave the spiders alone they aren't bothering anybody!

More seriously there is a kernel of truth here but it is important to remember the context.

Margaret Atwood was born in 1939 and this is based on a quote of hers from 1982. In that time period in the US having a husband was absolutely essential for a woman to function in the world and there existed limited resources for addressing the problems she was talking about. This was the period of time when the equal pay act, title nine, and the equal credit opportunity act were passed in the US. The VAWA would not pass for another decade.

Now things have changed significantly. Women have resources to address the issues Atwood was talking about and the misuse of that power is something men should be afraid of. Similarly women are not under the kind of pressure they were in the mid 20th century to find a man. On the other hand it is extremely difficult and expensive for a man to start a family without a wife or girlfriend and a lot of the social privileges associated with masculinity have disappeared.

I'm not sure this was ever technically true but I think it was expressing a sentiment that was reflective of the issues of the time. However, times change and, if it was ever true, it is not today. It also no longer reflects the pressure and difficulties each gender faces when pursuing a partner.

LettuceBeGrateful · 2023-09-30T15:04:26+00:00

"A woman's greatest fear is that she won't be asked out. A man's greatest fear is losing his job, family, and friends to a false accusation."

My response. Just as reductive and ridiculous.

Cainer666 · 2023-09-30T15:48:02+00:00

If this were true, it would only be a valid comparison if the rates of the negative outcome were roughly the same.

tzaanthor · 2023-10-01T09:08:25+00:00

Lol no.

JetChipp · 2023-10-12T15:20:12+00:00

I don't have a greatest fear when it comes to pursuing relationships with women because I don't bother to do that in the first place, outside of that my greatest fear is something that changes every once in a while, it all boils down what my ocd latched to.

Title	"Men's greatest fear in pursuing relationship with a woman is that he will be laughed at or rejected. Women's greatest fear is that she will be physically harmed-raped-killed." -Thoughts?
Author	MSHUser
Upvotes	105
Comments	206
Date	September 29, 2023 4:11 PM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/16vfst6/mens_greatest_fear_in_pursuing_relationship_with/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/mens-greatest-fear-in-pursuing-relationship-with-a.1233411 https://theredarchive.com/post/1233411

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