Q4A: "If men did more [of women's thing] they would get more of [women's results]" - why do you think they don't?

Fan_Service_3703 · 2025-02-26T11:46:24+00:00

I would say that many/most men are or should be doing most of this.

However there are larger forces in play.

Yes, men should be more involved fathers. That is beneficial to all involved. But (while maternity leave isn't great either) extended paternity leave might as well be a joke in most parts of the world. It is very much the norm for Dad to back at work within weeks if not days of a baby being born, which puts stress on both parents (mum recovering from pregnancy and being at home with the screaming baby all the time, dad having to return to work and be away from his child while being the sole provider) which is why it is often a tough time for couples and results in relationship failure.

Yes, men should be willing to go see a doctor more. However, even if they did, overwhelming majority of workplace accidents and occupational health issues are men. So seeing a doctor wouldn't attack the root causes of male deaths/health issues. Also to add that men being taught to not ask for help and just accept their lot in life (such as unsafe workplaces) is one of the fundamentals to the male experience.

Yes, men should put more effort into their appearance, but their options for style and fashion are vastly limited compared to women. Really men should be able to use makeup (in fact makeup is a masculine concept) but the Western cultural psyche penalises them for doing so.

CatallaxyRanch · 2025-02-26T15:35:53+00:00

which of women's issues do you think stem from their unwillingness to just do things differently and in ways that seem intuitively obvious to men?

The wage gap. Women tend to pursue lower paying careers, or even when they pursue higher paying careers, they tend to focus on work-life balance or personal fulfillment at the expense of making more money. They also aren't as assertive about pursuing new opportunities or asking for better compensation.

bison5595 · 2025-02-26T13:29:11+00:00

The reason a lot of men don’t follow it is because it’s just simple talking points that women don’t mean. I promise you that men who aren’t complaining about women aren’t doing whatever this list of stuff that women claim they should do

Trancetastic16 · 2025-02-26T13:03:50+00:00

In my experiences most average men make a solid effort with most of this, but we are living in declining western societies including a housing crisis in UK/Canada/Australia, increasing financial difficulties for most people, increasing mental illness youth crime rates, and over-filled medical systems.

Paternity leave is inadequate in many countries for men to have enough mentally/physically healthy vacation time, but it’s still important for a man to do his best to recover and also care for his family when he is at home.

Most shorter lifespans for men are due to working laborious jobs and experiencing body injuries.

It is less socially acceptable for men to improve their attractiveness outside of the limited range of acceptable masculine fashion and grooming styles.

I believe that the extensive criticism of men “not making any effort” is over-exaggerated by an unhealthy dating culture due to limited and restrictive gender roles including the man needing to fit the standards of hypergamy inflation by social media and dating app addicted women (and men) in our hyper-capitalist and hyper-individualist societies.

Men who are more basic, laidback, and minimalist with their fashion, grooming, income, career, education, goals and lifestyle are harshly judged as inadequate rather than simply different and trying to find someone similarly basic, laidback and minimal.

Men who defy traditional gender roles and wear makeup and cross-dress and openly express both masculine and feminine behaviours and gestures are harshly judged.

Modern men are confused by both modern feminist gender roles for men and past traditional male gender roles that they are unable to fulfil both nor find a partner who will accept their earnest attempt at fitting one, both or neither.

Personally I’m going to continue my efforts, ignore judgemental people who are not compatible with me being a male who openly cross-dresses and wears Queer-coded accessories, and do my best to seek those I am compatible with who would accept me for who I am and appreciate my efforts in all areas of my life as a man, believe most healthy adult men are earnestly doing their best at this, and wish them good luck and recommend they ignore the haters.

bluehorserunning · 2025-02-26T19:22:36+00:00

Some of them do. Some of them are. My brother is a super involved dad, and he has 50% custody of his daughters and there was a 50% division of assets in his divorce. He didn’t realize how much work the kids were before the divorce, though, and both he and his ex had affairs. His ex also had anger management problems.

The men who don’t do that were raised not to, by parents and in a culture of ‘men are men and women are women,’ and often men are considered emasculated if they do anything ‘feminine’ or ‘womanly,’ like caring for their own children or showing concern for their own health.

Liberal men have healthy masculinity; they’re making themselves and their families stronger and more secure. Conservative men have toxic masculinity. They’re poisoning themselves with it.

MidoriEgg · 2025-02-26T12:21:40+00:00

I think there’s some truth in all those examples (some more than others) but to pretend that those are the only factors at play is disingenuous.

Mysterious-Solid-646 · 2025-02-26T12:02:40+00:00

put more effort into their attractiveness [just like women do], they would have less problems in dating.

I’d argue that most people who actually work hard into improving their attractiveness are men. It’s men who go to the gym and workout to improve their strength, size, and physique. It’s men who I most often see at running events. Men put a significantly far amount of time into their fitness and overall attractiveness.

Women don’t struggle in getting dates. The reason isn’t because they “put more effort into their attractiveness.” The reason is because they don’t have to. Men don’t have ridiculously high attractiveness standards like women do. The dating market is heavily skewed in favor of women. For most women, simply existing is enough.

You guys have seriously got to stop perpetuating this myth that men struggle because they don’t shower, or they don’t do basic hygiene, or they don’t go outside, or they lack basic fashion, or whatever your favorite gaslight is. It’s so incredibly stupid to just assume that a significant portion of men just suddenly lost the ability to take care of themselves starting in the 2010s.

Men struggle because women have unrealistic expectations with regard to men’s attractiveness. Of course, women will tell you that it’s because men “aren’t trying hard enough,” not realizing that it’s their own standards that cause them to see the vast majority of men as unattractive.

Spirited_Cod260 · 2025-02-26T15:31:44+00:00

Men do most often marry women from their own socioeconomic class.

Men put way more effort into looking good than women do. Attractive guys spend months/years/decades exercising and working out. Guys can't buy attraction at the mall or on Amazon.

Fickle_Friendship296 · 2025-02-26T13:39:07+00:00

Everything listed here is to just be a functional adult.

growframe · 2025-02-26T13:51:36+00:00

were more involved parents [just like women are], they would win custody more often

I don't know anything about custody disputes. If I had to guess some part of it is probably SAHM-ing still being a fairly big part of socialization.

married someone of their own socioeconomic status [just like women want to], they would get more equitable division of assets in divorce;

I think people who marry people with meaningfully different ststus are outliers as is. I think part of the disparity between "successful men" and "successful" women complaining about divorce is that men tend to put themselves into the shoes of successful people more. I see far more men framing issues as if they are a billionaire than women doing it.

visited doctors more often [just like women do], they would have longer lifespans / fewer health issues;

This one I think may just be a case of "men are dumb"

put more effort into their attractiveness [just like women do], they would have less problems in dating.

Women tend to be raised from the start to focus on their appearance and to compete within their communities. Men tend to get a lot more "just be nice" type of raising, so it's much more likely for a man to arrive to the dating market without being subsumed into competing in looks than women, they have to learn about the importance of fitness and styling of their own volition.

upalse · 2025-02-26T21:07:24+00:00

If only homeless people bought houses.

Mysterious-Device392 · 2025-03-02T20:44:53+00:00

Feminists largely think men are just defective women, that would be "fixed" if they did more women shit.

Unhappy_Offer_1822 · 2025-02-26T12:12:54+00:00

for every complex problem there is an answer that is clear simple and wrong

M3taBuster · 2025-02-26T17:44:08+00:00

were more involved parents

Men are expected to be the primary breadwinner, which means we'll spend more time at work and less time at home, which means we can't be as involved of a parent as women.

married someone of their own socioeconomic status

Most women demand men at least slightly above their socioeconomic status, which means men have to date down socioeconomically.

visited doctors more often

This one I'll admit is partially self-inflicted by how we are socialized, but it's also partially related to spending more time at work.

put more effort into their attractiveness

Nothing improves attractiveness more significantly than makeup, which we aren't allowed to use.

Secondly, which of women's issues do you think stem from their unwillingness to just do things differently and in ways that seem intuitively obvious to men?

A huge chunk of women's issues in dating would be solved if they just kept their legs closed/made men wait, and were pickier about important qualities like kindness and moral character, while being less picky about shallow, unimportant things like income and height.

noafrochamplusamurai · 2025-02-26T15:12:25+00:00

To be honest, a lot of guys aren't open to accepting advice, or admitting that they are the limiting factor in their dating life.

Lift_and_Lurk · 2025-02-26T14:23:15+00:00

Most the dudes complaining online or stuck following a “pill” or program they bought into (either figuratively or literally) ARE stupid/reckless/toxic/ or unwilling to listen to general advice.

Because often a lot if the advice is stuff their friends have already told them, if they have friends.
And the ones that don’t have any friends are probably there for the same things people online are telling them what’s wrong with them anyways.

Pill popping dudes struggling need to stop acting like “they are all men”. They aren’t

Efficient-Baker1694 · 2025-02-26T16:19:39+00:00

Because doing those things doesn’t guarantee that you’ll get the result you desire most. A man could doing everything to make himself be more attractive and it’s a possibility that even after doing so, no woman finds him attractive.

MiddleZealousideal89 · 2025-02-26T17:20:03+00:00

What do you think are the reasons behind men's unwillingness to do this particular, often quite basic and intuitive thing?

The answer is not cut and dry. Different men, different reasons for doing this. However, I could probably narrow it down to a few things:

Upbringing and culture - We're not raised in a vacuum, cultural expectations of what it means to be a man or a woman will play a part in how we are raised. Maybe things have changed a bit, but when I was a kid, l heard a whole lot more about minding my manners, about being a "proper lady" (mostly from my grandmother), that I had to be mindful of others, that I had certain obligations when guests came over, etc. Now, that's not to say little boys didn't also have to do some of that, we all had to be dancing monkeys for guests but little boys got a lot more leeway to be little kids and do dumb, gross little kid things. But I definitely know some guys who were never expected to do anything around the house while they were growing up (because it's the job of the woman of the house to take care of the cooking and cleaning), and they just kind of revert to that when they're in a relationship.
Devaluing of what is considered "women's" work - Goes back to the culture element. Men want to be seen as strong and manly by other people (men and women contribute to outdated notions of what a man or woman should be), so they avoid doing tasks that are feminine-coded to avoid seeming weak. Cooking, cleaning, child care, these are seen as the domain of women, can't have John Strongman do them, that would make him a sissy! The few times it is acceptable is if the man turns these things into some money-making venture - becomes a head chef at a restaurant, opens up a cleaning company- or exclusively focuses on doing outdoor tasks (outdoors = manly). A lot more men are actively participating in the care of their children, which is great, I'm hoping more men join in as time progresses. Very positive change in the right direction, even if we have a long way to go.
Laziness and a lack of consideration for others - Could just throw this one into the first point, but oh well. Cleaning is tedious, cooking can be tedious even if you enjoy it, kids are exhausting, loud, and sticky, and I hate having to call the doctor to make an appointment for a place I don't want to go to. I don't want to do most of these things, but I still do them because they're not going to do themselves, and I don't think it's fair to put the burden of all the tedious stuff of life onto my partner.

Obviously, there will be different combinations of these. A guy who was raised in a relatively liberal/progressive family, but was also spoiled rotten by his parents might just be lazy and immature, he might not think only women should do the annoying stuff, he just doesn't think he should have to do it. A hard-working dude who was raised in a very traditional household might not devalue women's work, but he might firmly believe in a strict separation of gender roles and doesn't think his partner should complain about what her role entails. You could say that's someone being a bad partner, and I agree, but I wouldn't say that it necessarily comes from him devaluing her work.

Secondly, which of women's issues do you think stem from their unwillingness to just do things differently and in ways that seem intuitively obvious to men?

Burnout. If you're expected to be the one who handles the majority of household chores, the child-rearing, and making sure that everyone else in the house is taken care of (doctor's appointments, picking up his medicine, getting him new socks, etc.), you'll eventually feel bogged down by all of it. Death by a million papercuts. Now imagine all the people doing that AND having a job. To me, it seems pretty intuitive to think "If I see my partner is struggling and I'm part of the reason for that struggle, this relationship will not end well for me, I'd better make sure I don't give the person I love reasons to not love me. I love this person and want them in my life, I'd better give them reasons to want to have me in theirs.''

Outside_Memory5703 · 2025-02-26T15:05:35+00:00

It’s human nature to be lazy and entitled

That’s why men get upset that things aren’t fair

They expect money to be equivalent to parenting and maintenance and averageness to be equivalent to attractiveness

And they’re not. That’s why more effort is needed

Downtown_Cat_1745 · 2025-02-26T15:39:09+00:00

I think to a great extent, a lot of men are conditioned to believe that women are inferior. Therefore, when women do a thing, men devalue it. We’re beginning to see this with college: women are excelling in university, so men are going into the trades.

If a man begins with the assumption that women are inherently less strong (emotionally as well as physically) , intelligent and capable, then he’s not going to want to do the things they do

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TigerBiting_A_Katana · 2025-02-26T22:19:37+00:00

In answer to your second question, women seem to be much more able to settle for a man they don’t necessarily find sexually attractive, but who looks good on paper. Perhaps under the sway of society’s definition of an ideal husband. I do believe that this is a significant contributing factor to the high divorce rates. To most men not marrying someone they don’t really want to sleep with is intuitive and natural. Less so for women do to societal conditioning.

Which is why I’m not totally opposed to women being super picky about their future husbands. On one hand it might actually lower the future divorce rates.

izzzy12k · 2025-02-26T23:38:24+00:00

were more involved parents [just like women are], they would win custody more often;

This only happens if a favorable judge handles the case.

In most cases, a guy has to paint the mother in a bad light.. instead of him in a positive light to have any chance at getting primary custody.

married someone of their own socioeconomic status [just like women want to], they would get more equitable division of assets in divorce;

Women usually seek someone who out earns them, very rarely do women find interest in a guy who's her equal.

visited doctors more often [just like women do], they would have longer lifespans / fewer health issues;

This is something I feel comes from ones formative years.. previous generation of boys were always told to "walk/shake it off", "don't act like a lil girl", "suck it up". And that unfortunately carries into men's adult life.. This does need to change.

put more effort into their attractiveness [just like women do], they would have less problems in dating.

Attractiveness and beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

You'll find that men are more willing to lower their standards (physically) when dating.. than women.. and that's not counting the other physical aspects that can't be altered.. like height.

I always see it as some variation of "Men are just stupid / reckless / toxic / unwilling to hear a genuinely useful advice" and the like, so basically as a variation on "Men Just Suck". But if these claims come from a place of genuine care and concern, what do you think are the reasons behind men's unwillingness to do this particular, often quite basic and intuitive thing?

What sucks is that men will get contradictory info from female friends and family.. Many times tied to differences in religion, generational, and social ideals and beliefs.

Klutzy_Charge9130 · 2025-02-27T16:39:29+00:00

I think everyone needs to grow up. Women need to grow up and realize that there is a certain way (nonviolent bullying) women often treat men that exacerbate these issues. Men need to grow up and start standing up to women who are bullies.

cromulent_weasel · 2025-02-28T05:08:02+00:00

were more involved parents [just like women are], they would win custody more often;

This is just the truth. When men go for shared custody, they get it.

married someone of their own socioeconomic status [just like women want to], they would get more equitable division of assets in divorce;

Men do get an equitable division of assets in a divorce already. 50/50 is equitable.

visited doctors more often [just like women do], they would have longer lifespans / fewer health issues;

There are some issues like Telomere length and the protective effects of estrogen which affect men dying younger.

put more effort into their attractiveness [just like women do], they would have less problems in dating.

Yup. For me it's important that you have basic hygiene, know how you are perceived by others, financially stable, sex positive, mentally healthy. Regardless of your gender.

I always see it as some variation of "Men are just stupid / reckless / toxic / unwilling to hear a genuinely useful advice" and the like, so basically as a variation on "Men Just Suck".

I agree, men have to live in a low level acid bath that is 'men suck', in the same way that circa 1960 women have to live in the low level acid bath that is 'women are stupid'.

what do you think are the reasons behind men's unwillingness to do this particular, often quite basic and intuitive thing?

I think that part of the problem with the overall negativity of messaging like that is that the healthy reaction of a man is 'this is not for me'. So they step away from that space / energy.

Secondly, which of women's issues do you think stem from their unwillingness to just do things differently and in ways that seem intuitively obvious to men?

I think that one significant difference between men and women (that is biological) is the discussion of intractable problems. After women have discussed an issue and come to no resolution, they feel better. For men, they feel worse. Men NEED there to be a solution to the problem to feel better.

So I guess 'knowing there's a problem but not doing something about it' would meet that 'unwillingness' criteria.

LapazGracie · 2025-02-26T11:35:42+00:00

The answer is human nature. Males and females are just different biologically. Our brains are wired different. We think different. We look different.

This was common knowledge for most of human history. Only recently has it become taboo to say this obvious truth.

Males are less involved as parents (on average) because they are males. Females are just naturally more nurturing.

Males don't give a shit about socioeconomic status. On average anyway. If she's hot we don't give a shit if she flips burgers

Males tend to be less responsible when it comes to things like doctor checks. Again this is only on average. Plenty of responsible males out there. But if you take 1000 random young males and 1000 random young females. The young males will be more likely to wild risk takers and never see doctors unless they got a bone sticking out of their hand or something.

Regarding attractiveness. We get evaluated differently. The entire sexual worth of a female is tied into her physical appearance. Males also spend many hours in the gym. Usually to look good for females. But we also get evaluated on other factors such as social status and money. Which is why we preoccupy ourselves with shit like video games and sports. Because in the past those activities could improve our social standing. Nowadays things like video games just hack our primordial brains to think we're doing something positive in that regard.

All this is on average by the way. Humans are very complex and variable. Plenty of irresponsible females and males who are good parents and do their regular doctor checkups.

Solondthewookiee · 2025-02-26T11:44:02+00:00

If men ... were more involved parents [just like women are] they would win custody more often

I haven't seen this one. If men simply asked for more custody, they would get it like women do.

married someone of their own socioeconomic status [just like women want to], they would get more equitable division of assets in divorce;

Another one I can't say I've seen. Like the custody one, the paranoia over division of assets in a divorce is grossly distorted by men online, but the most common ways to protect assets are with a prenup or just don't get married.

visited doctors more often [just like women do], they would have longer lifespans / fewer health issues

Isn't this a pretty well studied phenomenon?

put more effort into their attractiveness [just like women do], they would have less problems in dating.

I've seen this advice, but not framed as "like women do." You should put effort into your appearance when dating, regardless of whether women are doing it.

But if these claims come from a place of genuine care and concern, what do you think are the reasons behind men's unwillingness to do this particular, often quite basic and intuitive thing?

For a variety of reasons that vary depending on what is discussed. For the custody and divorce examples, while I haven't seen it framed as "like women do," it is true that many men worry about these things, and the answer is largely because they believe myths spread by other men. When men simply ask for more custody, they almost always get it, and men are far less likely to be financially ruined by divorce than women (also the majority of jurisdictions do not split assets 50/50).

I also think the framing of it being told to act like women do is hearing something that isn't being said (with the possible exception of going to the doctor).

flipsidetroll · 2025-02-26T14:13:58+00:00

So, weirdly, I sort think that yes, of course we are both different and that is EXACTLY why we do things differently, meaning neither is right or wrong. We are simply different. BUT, that would destroy the entire redpill narrative, because they/you cannot see or want to see that we DO NOT think like men, nor find the same things attractive as men. So, it’s kind of agreeing with you, but you probably wouldn’t apply it to the bigger picture. You’ll only apply it to the things that fit your narrative.

The men not getting custody part, I could write reams (for the men’s side) because that’s exactly what one of my jobs is, helping fathers in custody battles. And the laws and societal bias has not kept up with the research that shows how important fathers are IN THE WAY THEY NURTURE BABIES TO TODDLERS. Those formative years with fathers are so important for very specific reasons, developmentally.

Flightlessbirbz · 2025-02-26T19:42:11+00:00

These all have a lot of truth to them, although of course nothing is ever as simple as “just” do x.

The closest reversed example would be “if women pursued higher paying careers and didn’t choose to stay home with their kids more, the wage gap would disappear.”

Which on the surface is true, however, it isn’t equivalent for two reasons. First, careers have historically become higher paying when many men entered the field and lower paying when many women did. Some prime examples are teachers and nurses.

Second, women fought on a large scale to enter the paid workforce, but men have never fought on a large scale to take on more unpaid parenting and household work. This leaves the fact that someone must make sacrifices in their career take care of the kids, or otherwise the couple must pay out the ass for childcare. And usually, this is going to be the woman.

So, not gonna lie, the ball is mostly in men’s courts now when it comes challenging gender roles. However, I also realize it’s not that simple for men to do so. Women are wary of a guy who says he’d like to reduce his work hours to take care of the kids more, for example, because most men don’t actually want to do more parenting. So if a man genuinely does want to do this, he’s likely to run into some issues.

Makuta_Servaela · 2025-02-26T12:43:05+00:00

were more involved parents [just like women are], they would win custody more often;

Men do not go into childcare really understanding that childcare is a 24/7 job that completely changes your life. For the first couple months, being a present parent means you will go days-weeks at a time with almost no sleep. For the first two years or so, you will barely have any social time with your friends, etc. I have a male friend who is a new parent to a baby and a toddler right now, and he really thinks it's "I should take care of my needs and make sure my mental health is in good condition, and then I will be a better father for my kids." Meanwhile, his wife hasn't had more than an hour of sleep per night in four months.

married someone of their own socioeconomic status

I think this one is more just the nature of men having less options, so being less picky.

visited doctors more often

A number of reasons, but my presumption is just not taking their own health seriously. Several men I know refuse to make their own doctor's appointments, or even remember to take their medications daily or follow their doctor's prescribed diet, and expect their wives to remind them.

put more effort into their attractiveness

Men aren't as socially groomed to see themselves as being judged 24/7 by an invisible audience. That's why women will even wear makeup when they aren't planning on going out sometimes.

I always see it as some variation of "Men are just stupid / reckless / toxic / unwilling to hear a genuinely useful advice"

It's male socialization. Socialization is how people talked to you and what you saw others of your sex doing as you were growing up, and the unconscious things you learned as a result. Children see their own mums or their friends' mums as just "The woman always tending to the house and kids." They will rarely see their mum sick or exhausted, not because she's not, but because she's powering through it for the childcare. "My mum's friends" are often just "The mums of my friends". Where they will see the dads as having their own hobbies, own friend groups, etc. So boys will not grow up understanding just how much childcare takes, and girls will grow up realising that "mum" is an identity that will take her over.

SomeSugondeseGuy · 2025-02-26T18:43:45+00:00

Because it doesn't work. The people making those arguments are doing that thing where someone tries to dismiss something as personal failure when in reality it's due to massive differences in how men and women are treated, as well as how we're raised.

It's the "have you tried lowering your standards?" Of the other side.

Paternity leave is a joke, and my friend who's a father once had the cops called on him because he changed his daughter's diaper and a woman thought that was creepy somehow. So forgive me if I can't stay home and am hesitant to go out in public with a child without a woman present.

I don't really have anything motivating me to be a safe person, I don't have enough to lose to care about losing it. That's why I don't go to the doctor, and why I speed while driving. People don't care about me, why should I care about myself?

I do put effort into being attractive, but that just doesn't yield the same results as being born as the sex that's seen as "the prize".

Skmilarly, I don't think that there are any women's issues that are entirely women's fault, and believe that anyone who postulates such is a dick.

alwaysright0 · 2025-02-26T19:44:15+00:00

Men are becoming more involved as parents.

Those that don't are lazy or don't want to give up their careers

Men do marry within the same socioeconomic status. The vast majority of people do

I'm sure those that don't have a variety of reasons

Not sure why men are less likely to go to the dr? But they should.

Whenever I see these things said, I've never read it as men are stupid. Just as an explanation.

Funnily enough I only ever see an explanation being given because someone has tried to say women are evil

Kreeps_United · 2025-02-26T23:41:09+00:00

Variations of this claim include but are not limited to: If men ...

were more involved parents [just like women are], they would win custody more often;

This is the kind of advice women complain about getting from men. It's shallow and really reveals what people don't think about. You can want to be involved with your kid but weren't married to their mother. You can want to be more involved with your kid but took up more hours at work to pay for childcare which is what led to your wife divorcing you because you were never around.

Advice to men seem to come from the mindset that women have problems but men are problems.

Title	Q4A: "If men did more [of women's thing] they would get more of [women's results]" - why do you think they don't?
Author	abaxeron
Upvotes	39
Comments	248
Date	February 26, 2025 8:43 AM UTC (1 year ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1iyj429/q4a_if_men_did_more_of_womens_thing_they_would/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/q4a-if-men-did-more-of-womens-thing-they-would-get.1545020 https://theredarchive.com/post/1545020

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