I'm a feminist and up until about a week ago I was very anti men's rights... until I started digging deep. Question: Has this happened to feminists? Read my text for details.

girlwriteswhat · 2015-03-16T20:20:22+00:00

I became aware to the issue of boys and education (something which completely shocked me and which I had absolutely no awareness...why isn't the media talking about this??).

The media isn't talking about it because of a combination of male disposability and the fact that the people attempting to raise the issue are vilified as misogynists and haters (and violent, and dangerous) in the mainstream media.

There are plenty of people who actually went and looked and had their minds changed/opened by personally attempting to verify what they were being told. This is actually why many of us are okay with those attack articles--they make people curious. People get outraged and want to go see what monsters "those MRAs" are, and a lot of them stick around. A lot of them are angry about being lied to.

I stumbled on the movement by accident, and I was never a feminist. What I found was a set of ideas about gender that were much more nuanced and balanced and evidence-based than the ideas put forth by feminism. I also found an extremely welcoming community (despite it being a fairly hard core site) that accepted my criticism when they felt it was fair, called me out when it wasn't without dogpiling, were willing (eager, actually) to explain their point of view to a noob like me, and were willing to talk to me straight like an adult instead of pandering or trying to spare my feelings.

It was seriously refreshing.

One thing I might consider if I were you is why are all these articles lying about us? A lot of the lies, too, are not "they're wrong" but "they're dangerous" or "they're so disgustingly hateful, you'd best not go look." A lot of them are geared to play on people's instincts to stay away, rather than go have a look at the ideas.

Essentially, the lies are designed to scare people away from engaging with us, or really looking into the issues, because the feminist narrative (while it has some validity in very narrow ways) can't survive as an overall paradigm if it's subjected to vigorous scrutiny.

I was on a panel with Naomi Wolf once. The conversation ended up with her complaining how it's sexism or misogyny or rape culture that makes it so that so few rapists end up in prison. My response--that rape is a fairly unique crime in that the only thing that separates it from a legal act that occurs millions of times every day is two people's state of mind, and that this crime almost always occurs in a context where it's plausible that two people would consent to sex (date/acquaintance rape), and where there are generally no witnesses to the act but the accuser and accused, and frequently the only physical evidence is physical evidence of a legal act--was, to her, rape apology. Everything I said makes rape a very difficult crime to prove a lot of the time, and that has nothing to do with a "patriarchal conspiracy"--it's just the circumstances common to the crime that make it difficult for people on a jury to be sure they know what happened.

Anyway, Naomi dropped the "Rape Apologist" bomb in an attempt to end the conversation, because there's really no way to refute the actual things I was saying. And the things I was saying would shed doubt on her narrative, so the best strategy at that point was to paint me as somehow "dangerous" and therefore someone who shouldn't be listened to.

This is what they're doing when they write those attack articles. It's why I have had feminists badmouth me about refusing to debate them, who then refuse to debate me. It's why they typically moderate their comment sections, or close them altogether. It's why I'm almost positive I won't be asked onto The Young Turks again. It's why I've been banned from some feminist subreddits before even knowing they existed. It's why they try to shut down Men's Issues events, and when they can't, they try to convince people we're the devil, so don't listen.

If that's what they have to do--shut down or lie about people who disagree with them so they aren't heard and their ideas can go unchallenged--you might want to reevaluate what they've told you about how society operates.

guywithaccount · 2015-03-16T18:25:58+00:00

Congratulations on your intellectual honesty and rational skepticism.

Yes, many MRAs are former feminists or feminist supporters who came to realize that feminism's views on gendered power and oppression are inadequate, that feminism both permits and encourages a great deal of misandry, all while it pretends to oppose sexism, and that men have real issues that feminism's theoretical framework is incapable of addressing.

scanspeak · 2015-03-16T20:52:02+00:00

Paul Elam, Warren Farrell, Erin Pizzey and many other prominent MRAs were once feminists. You won't find any feminists who were once MRAs.

Frittern · 2015-03-16T17:47:07+00:00

Well then your in a unique position to bring awareness of some of the issues that harmfully and disproportionally affect men. You do not have to identify as MRA or drop the feminist self ID. Just talk about the issues. In the end all that really matters is the issues. The MRM is just trying to provoke discussion of said issues. Two more things male suicide and male developmental disabilities two grave health issues that impact many more men than women.

How many people are aware of things like this?

"Males had twice the prevalence of any DD than females and more specifically had higher prevalence of ADHD, autism, learning disabilities, stuttering/stammering and other DDs;"

These disabilities are hinted at and casually hurled as dismissive insults towards men and MRA's. Men are told they are primitive,unevolved or defective. Now reverse the genders what if it was socially acceptable to mock feminist or women in general because females are statistically more likely to suffer from dementia. How would that make you feel? You can help people understand where a lot of the anger is coming from.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/developmentaldisabilities/features/birthdefects-dd-keyfindings.html

robertlo9 · 2015-03-16T17:55:31+00:00

Thank you so much for your post. I completely agree. I'm a father of three children with my wonderful wife, and I recently learned about the Men's Rights Movement and started to get the facts about it. It's a very positive thing, fighting to restore balance in the debate over men's and women's rights. I think feminism has caused some serious problems in society, and I hope we can work together to bring sanity back to the table.

Mitthrawnuruodo1337 · 2015-03-16T18:12:32+00:00

Yes, this happens a lot. The popular narratives in society are very one-sided, so we hear many stories of people who look into it themselves for the first time and find a lot of new information that was always available, but never shared. Stick around, read the sidebar, and question everything (we are not perfect either, but I think we try harder to question our own nonsense).

I will also warn you, the other way people question the common narratives is by being personally hurt, usually badly. That's way worse than just looking into it. Consequently, some people here are bitter or angry about the way things are, so when you're new you can accidentally get those responses if you sound like a concern troll or a feminist parrot or something. Please understand this is usually the result of some serious pain, not endemic misogyny (as is usually reported).

jamminnummeruno · 2015-03-16T19:07:52+00:00

I think you should also cross-post on r/feminism and see what happens. I would be curious to know.

blueoak9 · 2015-03-16T19:44:02+00:00

"Then about a week ago - I read an article - it was from this guy David Futrelle and it was very negative about men's rights activists. It pissed me off and so I decided I was going to dig deep."

Bless you! And bless Futurelle too, if that's the effect he has had on you.

"I became aware to the issue of boys and education (something which completely shocked me and which I had absolutely no awareness...why isn't the media talking about this??)."

You know how feminists say men control society, in this case the media? Well this is one example. Men, at least in this society, feel a lot better about themselves helping women than they do about doing anything for other men or boys.

thrway_1000 · 2015-03-16T17:35:07+00:00

www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/2uepv5/exfeminists_of_the_mrm_what_was_the_straw_that/

jamminnummeruno · 2015-03-16T19:06:06+00:00

Welcome! It's great to see that you took the time to dig deeper. I was there once too, and I am here now. :)

2015-03-16T18:24:32+00:00

A lot of our growth has to do with the fact that a small % of the people that read all these mra hate and fearmongering articles come and see for themselves and realise they are being lied to.

Welcome!

Correctrix · 2015-03-17T02:44:31+00:00

I didn't see any misogyny.

I'd actually warn you against that conclusion. There is misogyny, in the sense that there are comments by individual people that are a bit woman-hatey. As Karen Straughan once said, "how could there not be?"

If you decide that there is none at all, one day you'll come across such a comment or isolated article, and swing back the other way into being anti-MRA. Better to recognise that there's a variety of attitudes out there from the beginning. The important thing is to see that men's rights need protecting just like women's rights, regardless of whether there are some people out there with nutty YouTube videos about evil "female nature". It should also be recognised that there isn't an institutionalised masculist movement in the same way there is an institutionalised feminist movement, that picks one gender and champions it at any cost.

Black_caped_man · 2015-03-16T18:49:41+00:00

I have read quite a few stories like yours posted here from time to time. Most commonly it's women who have boyfriends/husbands, fathers, brothers, and or sons who are suffering from any kind of issue. They of course take the side of their loved ones and then gets to see a little bit of the world from that side.

I would suggest you look up a woman called Christina Hoff Sommers. She considers herself a feminist but does talk a lot of the rights of men and boys as well.

You don't have to leave feminism behind (if you don't want to) but I do hope this experience has made you more critical and open minded towards the world.

Edit: one of the things that seem to flip peoples world upside down is that the rate of domestic abuse is globally pretty much 50/50 men and women. See here for more information

TracyMorganFreeman · 2015-03-16T18:29:11+00:00

Years ago I felt I knew nothing of feminism and started looking into it. I looked into their various theories took some classes, and also what criticisms that existed, and that is how I was led to the MRM and GWW. I knew many of the problems that the MRM addresses existed, but had only really ever heard one explanation for them before.

rgeek · 2015-03-16T22:37:25+00:00

I wasnt a committed feminist but i was definitely pro-feminism. Growing up, i had seen and read several articles and ads detailing the plight of women in my country. Being a young and impressionable male (and having loved the women in my family, which they reciprocated), i bought their arguments wholesale without any examination. Even when some of their arguments didnt make sense, i did the usual mental gymnastics to ensure those arguments became valid - even if doing so meant a reduction in my already low self-esteem bcoz of the frequent male-bashing.

One day i wound up watching one of Girlwriteswhat's videos (i dont remember what video or how i ended up there) and suddenly the world made a lot more sense compared to how the feminists depicted it. I didnt need to do any mental gymnastics nor did i need to police myself in order to understand the male-female dynamic. It was like my mind had been liberated.

Initially i tried to reconcile Girlwriteswhat's views with my existing views on feminism but overtime i realised that feminist views could not survive without moral and tone policing i.e they could not stand on their own merit. Feminism needs to indulge in personal attacks and guilt-tripping in order to be relevant. Since that time, i have been an anti-feminist.

PS :- I havent said this before, but i would like to thank /u/girlwriteswhat for her work, particularly for the way she kept it simple without any mumbo-jumbo (unlike feminism) so that an avg man like me could understand it.

thrway_1000 · 2015-03-16T17:39:06+00:00

Feminism fighting equality - https://archive.today/kZrSp

2015-03-16T20:19:24+00:00

This is my first post and I hope it doesn't offend anyone (because I'm a feminist).

This doesn't offend me. Stereotypes based off of /r/againstmensrights and conflating us with TRP offend me. Relevant.

Then about a week ago - I read an article - it was from this guy David Futrelle and it was very negative about men's rights activists. It pissed me off and so I decided I was going to dig deep. My intention was to write an article on a blog to further criticize the movement.

I appreciate the digging deep. Very very few dig at all. I genuinely believe that most of our opposition has never spent a consecutive 20 minutes here.

men's rights groups attempt to take money from going to women's shelters

I mean, there are almost no men's shelters. I want the funding to be more evenly distributed. This might mean (if more funding cannot be found) redistributing women's shelter funds. I think that's fair. I'm not anti-women shelters but why should all the money go to women when most homeless are men and why should the fact that we've disproportionately spent money on women already motivate us to continue to deprive men in the future? That's not equality.

MRAs are misogynists

Two of our favorite figures, Karen Straughan and Christina Hoff Sommers, are women. We have no problem with women. We have problems with feminism because it creates a very anti-male narrative that makes it so difficult for us to get our issues resolved. People conflate women and feminism but I can't figure out why. Most women aren't feminists, not all feminists are women, and feminism isn't a gender. In fact, we especially appreciate our women MRAs because women are uniquely privileged to speak about gender issues without stigma. They're our best hope.

Suggested Paul Elam supports rape (quoted him out of context)

I know of nothing to support this.

Men talk s*** about women (talking about MGTOWS)

MGTOWs are angry at the world. The MRM isn't really related other than that we're both in the manosphere and the MRM doesn't talk shit about women. It's actually against the rules of this sub to be misogynistic and when we see it, we report it and posts/comments get removed and users get banned. Every now and again a troll like /u/womenarepathetic shows up but since we're not misogynistic, they stick out like a sore thumb and don't last.

MRAs are associated with pick up artists ...I can go on.

Nope. We even deny this in our sidebar.

Then I sat back on my chair and asked "What the F*** is everyone talking about?" I didn't see any misogyny. I saw excellent rebuttal against the claims that MRAs are "Pick up artists". I saw very real passionate calls to men and women to come to the aid of very serious issues. I became aware to the issue of boys and education (something which completely shocked me and which I had absolutely no awareness...why isn't the media talking about this??).

I'm glad you did. I really hope you stick around and help us grow as a movement.

I watched a YouTube video from a YouTuber called "Girlwriteswhat" on disposability. Which broke my heart and I almost (no I did) start crying! I heard a two and half hour radio show from a bunch of women (Honeybadgers) talking about men's rights.

Straughan is absolutely fantastic. She's incredibly well researched, incredibly good at writing and speaking, and puts on a good show. She's really an asset to the movement and I can't wait until her book comes out. /u/Girlwriteswhat is my personal favorite MRA.

It was like I was blind but now I see!! In fact, though I still consider myself a feminist it's almost like I don't see things the same way I used to. Does that make sense???

Christina Hoff Sommers also considers herself a feminist and we love her. If you're sympathetic towards our cause, maybe you'd be interested in voicing pro-MRA things in feminist circles. Having a good knowledge and understanding of feminism is valuable to us. My personal views on feminism involve it necessarily conflicting with the MRM, but yours don't have to and that's totally cool. We're accepting of pretty much everyone.

I've invested a lot into feminism to leave it behind but a lot of what I've learned this past week has shaken the very beliefs of my previous convictions. And now I'm not sure about anything anymore. It's rather frightening.

Well, I respect you for being intellectually honest enough to pursue evidence and go where it takes you. A lot of people, with any belief really, have a tendency to disregard evidence that doesn't conform but you didn't do that. I really hope you stick around.

Question: are there feminists (or exfeminists) that share a similar experience to mine?

Oh yeah. I was a pretty big feminist for the first 20 years of my life. I came to the MRM kicking and screaming but now, as you can see from my post history, I'm really big into the MRM. I don't think my principles of equality, ethics, or people really changed much but it's based on very different empirical evidence now.

Shrekusaf · 2015-03-17T01:51:22+00:00

rather than continue to call yourself a feminist, without disposing of the investment in it, you can consider yourself an egalitarian. someone who believes in equal rights for all.

Riktenkay · 2015-03-17T10:45:21+00:00

Sorry to derail things a bit but

I'm a feminist and up until about a week ago I was very anti men's rights

Says it all really. "Anti men's rights". How is it even considered remotely acceptable to be "anti men's rights"? Imagine if people were going around saying they were "anti women's rights", nobody would take them seriously and would immediately recognise them for the sexist piece of shit that they are. The idea of a "patriarchy" when we live in a world where this is the case, is mind bendingly ridiculous. In fact I propose that we may actually live in a "matriarchy".

NUMBERS2357 · 2015-03-16T18:41:14+00:00

I used to be a feminist, now I'm a nothing. This was before I'd ever heard of MRAs (and before reddit was more than some minor website nobody'd ever heard of). When I was a feminist, I believed what people said that feminism just means equality, and people who don't call themselves feminists are just scared of women or all Rush Limbaugh or something.

When I started actually reading feminist stuff, there was plenty of specifics that I disagreed with (acting like violence against women is more common, and a bigger tragedy, than violence against men is a big one). But really the one thing that stuck out was the constant contempt towards men in so much feminist writing. It was just always there, and always justified with reasons that I recognized from other contexts as bad excuses.

Random small example is referring to women as "women" and men as "dudebro" or something. Or always talking about "men" generally, and then insisting when called on it that they're not talking about all of them, just the subset that do bad thing X (of course X is absent from the long rambling article about how "men" suck). Always believing and defending any bad story about men ("one third of men would rape if they knew they'd get away with it, says obviously BS study we'll repeat anyway!"). Taking any example of bad shit happening to men and saying why it's their own damn fault.

At first you can take that stuff as talking about other men, but at some point you realize they're talking about you too. I decided that any generic reference to "men" includes me.

On a conceptual level, what changed is to see how race != gender, or sexual orientation, or other things like that. With other things there's a clear advantaged and disadvantaged group, and the differences all run one way. Black people are worse off than white people in basically every way they're not the same. But for gender, it's mixed. There are disadvantages men face, in a way that white people don't.

2015-03-16T20:53:38+00:00

Welcome to the fold, I don't hold you being a feminist against you. The fact that you decides to dig deeper says alot. Keep digging, keep educating yourself. I hope you stick around and get to know more about what we are about.

SaigaFan · 2015-03-16T21:04:23+00:00

Crosspost to /r/feminism

hork23 · 2015-03-17T10:47:57+00:00

Don't stop there though, question everything you hear especially if you agree with it. We naturally want to stop after a bit of truth seeking but we must be vigilant, the journey for truth lasts a lifetime.

chocoboat · 2015-03-16T22:39:04+00:00

My experience wasn't quite the same. I've always been pro-equality, and I called myself feminist because that's the word for being pro-equality right?

Unlike you, I was never fed any bullshit about how evil and hateful MRAs are, I had no idea what one was until I was this subreddit linked in a discussion somewhere else. I started reading and was really interested, because sexism against men so often goes overlooked while sexism against women is constantly being exposed to the public and things are being done about it.

I don't use the label feminist or MRA anymore. Those labels mean so many things to different people, and the majority of the time people get the wrong impression. "You're a feminist, so you hate men or something?" "You're an MRA, so you think women have more power in society than men, and that men are the only ones who face sexism?"

The labels don't work, so I just say that I'm for equality. People understand what that means.

BTW I do find it strange how feminism seems to resemble a religion more and more. Christians warn everyone about the scary, soul-less, moral-less atheists... and feminists warn everyone about the abortion-banning, woman-hating pickup artists known as MRAs. There's such a "if you're not with us, you're against us" mentality.

I mean it's gotten so far that they attack and insult actresses like Kaley Cuoco, who doesn't consider herself a feminist because she's not actively involved with gender rights and hasn't faced discrimination herself. Simply saying "I support equality, but I don't use the label feminist" gets you branded as an enemy.

the_tortfeasor · 2015-03-16T23:46:52+00:00

I am a man and considered myself a feminist for a long time because I was blinded by the line, "If you believe in equality, then you're a feminist." I of course believe women to be equals to men. I believe they should have equal rights and opportunities. I wanted to be a better feminist so I got involved in r/feminism and tried to have discussions where I would try to be a voice of reason in these echo chambers but I would get downvoted and threatened for being a man. So I started looking elsewhere and what I slowly realized as I was exposed to the MRM, was that feminists lied and distorted the truth in order to push their agendas. They themselves don't believe in equality. They want to elevate women. They want to liberate women from gender roles but get mad when men want to be liberated too. They want women to have equal rights. Well, guess what, women have rights in the US that men don't. There is no right that men have that women don't, but women have rights that men don't. Then they push these stupid agendas like the wage gap and the campus rape epidemic. Both of which use gross misrepresentations of data to make people think there is a problem where there isn't.

It was trying to become more of a feminist that pushed me away and made me a MRA.

2015-03-17T00:02:28+00:00

I can't claim credit for this and I don't know who originally posted it but here is a very fair look at the issues that men face. Hopefully you can learn things you didn't already know like I did and show it to your feminist friends if you so choose.

dangerousopinions · 2015-03-17T02:02:21+00:00

Probably most of us are ex-feminists. I very much believe in gender equality. But equality doesn't require degrading half the population, fabricating non-issues or statistics or denying that the other half has issues.

I'm Canadian and I grew up in a school system that was very much liberal and pro-feminist and it wasn't until I started seeing some of the more absurd campaigns that have come out of the feminist camp in recent years that I even questioned any of it.

I really had the wool pulled away when I openly questioned what I saw as absurd, not fact based, nonsense being propagated by what I assumed was an extreme wing of the feminist movement. The reaction this criticism received left me a little shocked and completely disillusioned with feminism as a simple ideology for gender equality.

2015-03-17T02:39:22+00:00

Question: are there feminists (or exfeminists) that share a similar experience to mine?

Of course there are, every now again there are posts on here from "exfeminists" seeking out the truth about this sub.

I'm sure there are other feminists out there too that share the same opinions as you (Christina Hoff Summers, while I haven't heard her support mens rights, is one that comes to mind).

Nothing is black and white, there's always a spectrum of people and opinions.

caius_iulius_caesar · 2015-03-17T03:02:56+00:00

No matter how far you've gone down the wrong road, turn back.

DavidByron2 · 2015-03-17T03:13:44+00:00

[permanently deleted]

YetAnotherCommenter · 2015-03-17T07:54:05+00:00

This is my first post and I hope it doesn't offend anyone (because I'm a feminist).

It certainly doesn't offend me. This subreddit has a long tradition of the more reasonable self-declared feminists being supportive of us. I remember several of their posts fondly, so really, consider yourself welcome here. If you support men's issues and believe that these issues are substantial and meaningful then you're welcome here (in my book). Your personal label is irrelevant.

By the same token, many MHRA's support women's rights issues too! I'm pro-choice, for example.

So I went to it. I went to A voice for men's website and read several dozen articles. I looked at endless clips of videos on YouTube from Paul Elam, and others like one channel bane666au (which I found incredibly informative)...and others associated with MGTOW.

I dug...and dug...and dug...

Then I sat back on my chair and asked "What the F*** is everyone talking about?" I didn't see any misogyny.

In other words, you exercised intellectual honesty. Kudos to you!

I was never a Third Wave feminist or a believer in Patriarchy theory (I was always an Individualist feminist and I still am but this is a very rare viewpoint in contemporary feminism so it makes me a non-feminist by their standards).

I support the MHRM because I truly believe the MHRM is the only force interested in genuinely reducing gender-based demands and pressures upon males. I don't want to stop women working against the prejudices and issues they face.

Seriously, the MHRM makes a pluralistic case: "the gender system fucks over both men and women, here's how it fucks over men." Contemporary (i.e. Radical Second Wave and Third Wave) Feminism, on the other hand, demands that the way women suffer must be the primary problem... the way men suffer must therefore be a mere side-effect... an epiphenomenon at best. Ergo not really important.

I became an MHRM supporter when Third Wave feminists gender-policed and attacked me to my face. This proved they had no interest in demolishing gender roles, they only wanted to wallow in a loathing of men.

That's my story. Draw what you will from it, but anyway, you're awesome and thanks for posting your story here. Consider yourself welcome.

appledcider · 2015-03-16T22:24:55+00:00

Yay fellow empathetic human being! =)

In all seriousness though, don't really mind if you're a feminist so long as you starting to understand there's a lot more to the narrative of gender roles in our society than one-dimensional "patriarchy" theory. It's totally okay and normal to be scared. New information that shakes your own view and potentially reshapes it does that.

I went through that once too. My introduction was a tumblr user, who's long since left, exposing me to a whole new field of information regarding men's actual present situation, and being extremely alarmed upon failing to debunk it with research, my fully expecting it to be bullshit at the time lol,-like "this is actually true?". In sum tho, I chose different than you, since I felt too betrayed between what I had learned and the ideals and high standards that i held for feminism (which suddenly it did not meet anymore), to be able to hold the same conviction I originally did. But I can respect and understand if you're still attached to Feminism. It wouldn't be easy to disengage from something you've immersed your identity and self-expression in and you've had a long relationship of positive emotions associated with. Ultimately, it's really just a game of juggling optimism versus pessimism, with a dose of realism, if the objective positives remaining are worth the newly realized negatives according to your personal values, vice versa, ect.

Niniane_ · 2015-03-17T03:40:48+00:00

Welcome. I was one a female feminist and after a year of watching and listening to MRA discourse and issues, as well as looking into feminist arguments, I now consider myself a female MRA.

We're here for equal rights and the chance for everyone to live a happy, healthy, fulfilled life without privilege and bias getting in the way.

I think you'll find many MRAs were once feminists.

CraftyDrac · 2015-03-17T12:36:56+00:00

men's rights groups attempt to take money from going to women's shelters

Actually, we would like that to create normal domestic violence shelters,open to all genders

Question: are there feminists (or exfeminists) that share a similar experience to mine?

Personally, I am a weird breed around here - I consider myself, and at the same don't consider myself both a MRA and a feminist, and I think you could be the same

It pissed me off and so I decided I was going to dig deep.

Like you, I don't take things at face value and do my own research

I think everyone should be equal, 1 human == 1 human, in that aspect, I'm like a moderate feminist, but I also think women are over privileged in many aspects, sounding like a full MRA, and many other things like this make me sound like a complete mixup of MRA and feminist

Oh, and if you have heard of gamergate, I would recommend reading up on it via /r/KotakuInAction/ to get more of the facts (if you haven't heard of it, you probably wouldnt care much for it though)

yelirbear · 2015-03-16T21:50:38+00:00

Welcome and thanks for caring about the issues seldom heard about? I used to be a feminist myself but have almost completely lost touched with my roots though I am not anti-feminist. If you could swing a magic wand and cure one of the world's many problems, what would it be?

theskepticalidealist · 2015-03-16T22:28:35+00:00

Thats the thing, if MRA's were so bad they'd attack what MRAs actyally said and they wouldn't have to keep lying about what they say and so shamelessly take them out of context. They wouldnt try and connect people like Elliot Rodger to MRAs when he had no connection at all just because they wanted him to be involved with the MRM and associate it with a psychopathic violent mentality against women. They so wanted him to be someone he wasn't so they just pretended he was anyway. It is not like certain MRAs have not said some stupid things, or controversial things worthy of a debate. But they mostly don't want to debate or talk about those things., they want to make up lies because apparently that is easier to make MRAs live in their black and white world where the MRAs are the evil ones and always wrong and can never have a valid point. They have an ideology where MRA's have to be wrong about everything, or else they must be wrong about something. They are of the mindset that they cannot give up any inch. It is how you know they are just not interested in what is true, they are interested in what feels true.

The main thing everyone needs to understand when they approach this topic is this....

You have to understand that feminists especially operate purely on emotion, on feelings. They believe their feelings are facts. If your facts and logic seem to disagree with their feelings then your facts and logic HAVE to be wrong by default. It doesn't matter how or why, it has to be wrong, because otherwise it means their feelings are unfounded. That is what they fear. It is the same with any religious faith. They believe what they believe and no amount of logic, facts or evidence can change that. If you do manage to change their mind it means they have "lost faith". These people have absolute faith they are correct, and deal with criticism the same exact way any religious person deals with it. The only difference is religious people can at least fall back on saying it's magic, and claim faith is a virtue. That is why I find feminists are far more virulent and angry than can't use that excuse, to admit it is a faith is to admit they have failed. So their solution is to get progressively more angry until they go off in a hissy fit calling you every name they can think of.

chavelah · 2015-03-16T23:08:18+00:00

Welcome! I am still a feminist, much as it irritates some of my fellow MRAs. I stumbled into the MRM via a feminist anti-circ community and the resultant Googling. Paul Elsm's "Requiem for Billy Bob" or something like that (I'be never been able to find it since, if anybody has it archived please speak up!) and that was my eye-opening moment. I still work on women's issues, but men's issues usually seem more pressing to me at my particular point in time and space, and thus get more of my bandwidth.

Gurunexx · 2015-03-16T23:17:44+00:00

You really ought to check out Christina Hoff Sommer's Factual Feminist videos.

therock6658 · 2015-03-16T23:36:36+00:00

Thank you for doing the research on men's rights. This is the one thing that feminists do not want to do and it's the reason why our videos on Youtube have a majority of likes; because feminists don't watch the vids.

Now the next step is to get rid of the feminist label. For that, I recommend that you continue to listen to Karen Straughan and the Honey Badgers.

deadalnix · 2015-03-16T23:43:55+00:00

In addition to know what mwn's rights are about, you probably can understand now why mra are mostly anti feminists. Not because they hate women, but because of how anti men's rights most of them are.

2015-03-16T23:45:06+00:00

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luxury_banana · 2015-03-17T00:10:21+00:00

So what you're saying is that you read Futrelle and other propaganda and took it at face value until you actually looked into what real people talking about these issues are saying.

I guess Edward Bernays was right.

elebrin · 2015-03-17T00:34:39+00:00

Men talk shit about women (talking about MGTOWS)

As someone who considers himself a man going his own way, I do occasionally say things that are highly critical of women. But you have to remember that some of these guys are people that have been rejected hundreds of times or have been treated badly by women and have become embittered. It isn't fair to class all women together, but it becomes a very easy thing to do. Generalizations are easy, and sometimes it does feel like all women are out to make you feel like shit and you can't say anything about it because you aren't being a man then.

CarbonBlob78 · 2015-03-17T00:40:48+00:00

Why feminism is not the solution to men's issues...

http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/g2eme/feminists_tell_you_that_the_solution_to_mens/

2015-03-17T00:56:08+00:00

Well, I'm not, nor have I ever been, a feminists, but my experience is similar.

I read several blog posts where people were calling MRA's nothing but a bunch of misogynists and quoting people they claimed were MRA's.

Then I looked at the MRM myself and never found anything even close to what the feminists were claiming about it.

riceboi69467 · 2015-03-17T01:26:36+00:00

I minored in gender studies during my undergrad. I believe the Feminism within my tiny bubble of academia was/is very gender egalitarian.

I'm appalled by the hateful and hypocritical brand of feminism that I find online.

Jerks and dummies ruin all the good things. All the things.

Drewbydrew · 2015-03-17T03:59:49+00:00

I'm an ex-feminist. My sister was an über-feminist and I've always looked up to her, so I blindly followed her. I had never even heard of the Men's Rights Movement until I saw the Men's Rights subreddit, which I initially though was just a joke subreddit. But then I visited it, and saw there were issues; actual issue that I didn't even know existed, despite being a man myself. Since then I've been subscribed to this subreddit and have scrubbed "feminist" from my list of self-descriptions. Haven't looked back.

My next mission is to try to subtly show my sister some of this stuff without being called a mysoginist. Any tips for dealing with a violently-feminist feminist?

2015-03-17T04:49:43+00:00

Welcome. Another female MRA here.

Instead of feminist, maybe you could consider labeling yourself as an egalitarian? That's what I consider myself to be, as men's and women's issues are equally important to me.

2015-03-17T05:59:08+00:00

Yup, I used to be a feminist, too.

And again it was GWW and AVfM that completely turned me around. This was before feminists started pumping out one attack piece after another on the MRM.

TriflingHotDogVendor · 2015-03-17T06:09:53+00:00

Feminism does't mean anything anymore. Especially after the second wave. Its a nebulous term that describes everything from an extremist that thinks all men should be chemically castrated to a fairly rational person that thinks that we should strive towards egalitarianism.

The obsession with labels and ideology-based politics is part of the problem. Just don't label yourself.

DoxasticPoo · 2015-03-17T15:38:58+00:00

What's wrong with PUAs?

SilencingNarrative · 2015-03-16T22:25:40+00:00

I am guessing that your post is not genuine, but an attempt to rattle our cage. If it were genuine, you would have more to offer in the post about your thought process than "I started reading about the men's movement and now I see the light, its a miracle!".

I could be wrong, but that's what this smells like to me.

BTW, this point:

men's rights groups attempt to take money from going to women's shelters

is true. We argue that the practice of the government setting aside funds to protect women from domestic violence by setting up shelters for them, without either opening those shelters to male victims, or setting aside a proportionate amount of the funding to set up male only shelters, violates the equal protection clause of the 14th. We also argue that there are as many male victims in need of shelters as there are female, so in effect, this would halve the amount of money available to run female shelters.

Personally, I think the shelters should admit men and women. Again, that would halve the resources available to women since, once it became acceptable for men to be recognized as victims and offered spaces at shelters, as that would reduce the number of spaces available for women.

rickyharline · 2015-03-16T21:32:51+00:00

I was a feminist before I was a men's rights activist. I am now proudly both. It isn't too hard to find vitriol and hate inside the men's rights movement, but it isn't hard to find in feminism, either. Gender issues bring up a level of emotion and bitterness rarely seen in other issues.

I'm really glad you see the value of the men's rights movement. =) I find it really puzzling that so many people and especially feminists can't understand that men would need their own platform to discuss male issues. Where do they expect I'm going to go to discuss this? Pick up basketball games where I'll get teased for admitting I have problems or for thinking that parts of male identity are stupid? That feminists consistently fail to understand that men have serious problems and that our own stupid culture encourages us to hide them is enormously frustrating. Feminists should know better than anybody about how harmful gender issues can be and how frustrating it is when no one listens to you.

GenderNeutralLanguag · 2015-03-16T23:56:49+00:00

I watched a YouTube video from a YouTuber called "Girlwriteswhat" on disposability. Which broke my heart and I almost (no I did) start crying!

The thing about that is that most men don't have that much of a problem with male disposability... if it comes with attendant privileges. While there are some men who don't want a return to traditionalism, quite a few WOULD accept traditionalism if women were held to their end of the bargain as they used to be.

As GWW put it:

"Traditionalism throws men under the bus and calls them heroes. Feminism throws them under the bus and calls them scum."

The MGTOWs are generally the most amicable to the restoration of traditionalism; their mentality being a simple cost-benefit analysis. If society offered them a better deal, returned to them the status, power, and respect that the law gave their ancestors, most would return to the SMP. Of course, to do so it would be necessary to once again deprive women of autonomy and franchise. Which is where the accusations of misogyny start. The MGTOWs aren't misogynistic, merely capitalist. They're making it clear what their price is, that they don't care to negotiate further, and that it doesn't matter to them whether women take it or leave it.

MRSPArchiver · 2015-03-16T17:25:43+00:00

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DougDante · 2015-03-17T03:44:48+00:00

Welcome.

I don't believe all criticisms are without merit, especially complaints that we could do more to seek justice for all. We always can.

2015-03-17T04:46:20+00:00

I became aware to the issue of boys and education (something which completely shocked me and which I had absolutely no awareness...why isn't the media talking about this??).

Christina Hoff Sommers has talked about it on MSNBC, I can't remember when exactly that was. Segment is on YouTube; she got completely rail-roaded on there. The segment ended with the host saying, "I think the patriarchy is safe."

That's the social climate that we've made for men, and even boy's issues. If you dare to speak about them on mainstream media, then you are in for that kind of dismissal. And it will turn into the Oppression Olympics for most topics. MGM [male genital mutilation] especially.

Question: are there feminists (or exfeminists) that share a similar experience to mine?

Can't answer that. I was always against the concept of feminism. I always figured that, at best it was a redundancy. I looked into MRM and feminism solely because I was passionate about MGM and the hypocrisy there. And it kind of expanded from there. And that showed me that feminism is far from it's best, and is a really damaging movement.

texan11moore · 2015-03-17T07:01:48+00:00

Reading about this experience sounds so much like the deconversion stories one might find in related subreddits, somewhat gives one an idea on how dogmatic the new wave of feminism has become.

2015-03-17T08:58:02+00:00

I don't have much to say really, but congratulations on being open-minded and seeking truth. fistbump

DancesWithPugs · 2015-03-17T09:19:43+00:00

This happened to me too, just over a longer period and without the initial "poisoning the well" phase of reading lies about MRAs. I call myself an egalitarian humanist.

ChristopherBurr · 2015-03-17T13:45:36+00:00

you can't unsee it now.

Lrellok · 2015-03-17T20:08:28+00:00

Greetings and welcome. I am happy to see allies and hope you have a good expiereance here. I offer, as a sort of gift, this article, which you should find useful in explaining your decision to IRL aquantances. http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2014/09/22/rape-cdc-numbers-misleading-definition-date-forced-sexual-assault-column/16007089/

2015-03-16T19:54:42+00:00

Go be a humanist.

tygertiger · 2015-05-02T02:18:01+00:00

I never considered myself feminist but I always believed women were an oppressed class and victimized by men. I believed this because this is what society taught me. It is how I was indoctrinated (yes, I'm using that word. It is accurate). Then I happened to see the video of the Warren Farrell protest in Toronto. After that, everything changed for me. Total paradigm shift. Red pill. That was 3 years ago. I consider myself egalitarian. But I believe that feminism, in its current incarnation, is a hate movement. Anti-male, anti-equality, anti-free speech, anti-intellectual, and anti-woman. I believe feminism is anti-woman because it lies to women, it ignores oppressed women in the third world, it treats women like children or the mentally feeble, and it uses women to generate profit. It is an edifice whose foundation is built on the lie that all men are oppressors and all women are victims. If it cannot be reformed, then it must be destroyed.

Kingpink2 · 2015-06-03T15:26:00+00:00

Most feminists are opposed to the concept of mens rights. As such they dont give mens rights activists the chance to be judged based on their views and actions. Therefore if they bother to look into mens rights activism, yes it can happen.

Then there are the "professional feminists" whom see mens rights activists as "competition" in resources. They will always try to find ways to attack them.

ThunderCuntylicious · 2015-03-16T20:42:38+00:00

I am glad you decided to do the mature thing and investigate, but it is people who think in the lines like you that is the problem.

I used to be anti men's rights

Would you please justify men not deserving rights? Why the fuck? I don't think you and most feminists(and a disturbing growing number of women) understand what that means.

I've invested a lot into feminism to leave it behind but a lot of what I've learned this past week has shaken the very beliefs of my previous convictions.

I've invested a lot into feminism to leave it behind

That is the words of a fanatic and a fundamentalist.

You guys are dangerous

DavidByron2 · 2015-03-16T19:58:21+00:00

I hope it doesn't offend anyone (because I'm a feminist)

Feminism is a hate movement, so yes it's going to offend some people, but we don't believe in living in a bubble like you feminists. There's no so-called "safe space" and no censorship. That's why your lot end up telling blatant lies and back forward between each other. Anyone who points out the lies is kicked out.

why isn't the media talking about this??

Because the media is controlled by feminists (nobody would dare to post anything they veto, except someone who likes being called a misogynist like Rush Limbaugh - in other words feminist flak).

I've invested a lot into feminism to leave it behind

Well if you don't then you're continuing to associate with hate, but it's up to you. It's pretty cult-like so you probably cant bare the thought of leaving but there's an easy way to fix that. Just voice some of your concerns to other feminists and they will kick you out of the movement.

iongantas · 2015-03-17T01:17:34+00:00

In what sense are you still a feminist?

warspite88 · 2015-03-17T07:09:55+00:00

It takes courage to open ones eyes to a truth that eludes them while blind. It takes honesty to admit that what has tried to keep ones eyes shut is as wicked as any tyrannical ideology and hate movement of history. Those with eyes wide open know, feminists have been trying to keep quiet the truth of its various agenda's and policies of over 100 years, as well as silence all dissent and challenge to its female focused feminist dogma.

In comparison of ideologies.

Germans who proudly hailed the nazi saviors had the same challenge when the truth of nazi tyranny and hate towards jews was revealed. some still cling to nazi affiliation to this day claiming it was and is a noble movement.

many whites distanced themselves from the ku klux klan when they realized the truth of their movements corruption and hatred. thinking that it was just about "protecting" white people from black men, oblivious to the black men hanging from trees. there are many who cling to the KKK to this day and refuse to accept that movements part in hate and the destruction of so many lives and that its growth would only kindle new fires of hate.

Feminism will be known, more so tomorrow, as the most successful hate movement in history. yet people , women and men, will cling to its title and what they believe it should mean. They want to ignore or pretend they can recover from the awful truth of their movements corruption, bigotry, and misandry. the goal posts will always be moved by the feminist be them radical, equity, 2nd wave, 1st wave, 3rd or 10th wave feminists. and men will always be the ones expected to bend to the goal posts distance to the favor of women. back and forth, back and forth as more families, unborn children, fathers and sons as well as many women whose lives are ruined by corrupted and double standards of feminist ideas of utopia.

My hope is that when feminist's eyes are opened they run from that movement and join with humanists because humanism by definition is about men and women, something feminism can never claim to be, not anymore.

real healing, real progress is not with feminism or even the mens rights movement, the MRA must be short, open eyes then it must die or it itself will turn into a corrupted and hateful movement bent on power and money.

With Humanism there is hope for men and women because its very definition is finding equality for ALL humans. regardless of your prejudice, without excuses.

Keep digging and then stop before you get too depressed or angry.

crosenblum · 2015-03-17T07:27:32+00:00

Congratulations. You've made the transition from sexist feminist who hates men and advocates against men's rights (AKA against equal rights) to an egalitarian who supports both gender's rights. There are always extremists on both sides, which is why I choose to label myself egalitarian rather than MRA or feminist.

btvsrcks · 2015-03-18T01:56:34+00:00

Feminists have always cared about men. The Mras cannot say the same.

Davidisontherun · 2015-03-17T04:08:15+00:00

You should check out /r/femradebates

It's a sub that tries to explore gender issues without talking past each other

It's not perfect all the time but there's at least some constructive dialogue between mras and feminists.

Edit: If you had an opinion on GamerGate before your revelation you might want to take another look at it as well.

ab_roller · 2015-03-17T01:11:17+00:00

This can't be real.
A feminist would never read anything pro-male with an open mind, let alone change her mind and stop hating.

Beamazedbyme · 2015-03-17T03:24:19+00:00

When people say that MRA's are misogynistic, they're really talking about one extreme. This is the same think that happens in this subreddit when people look at feminism. Surely the whole group somewhere has a positive message to it, but the extremists shouting 'kill all men' certainly delude that message. I find this video to be very informative of the nature of this type of issue.

Drewbydrew · 2015-03-16T20:11:27+00:00

We have turned her. And now we must train her, arm her, and send her back into the camp of the enemy.

MWcrazyhorse · 2015-03-17T03:24:42+00:00

Since you are looking for rational feminists, there is a handful of them. Maybe you will find this youtube channel of interest: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLytTJqkSQqtr7BqC1Jf4nv3g2yDfu7Xmd

2015-03-17T06:48:54+00:00

Did you look at articles from peer-reviewed journals? Or was it all from AVfM?

Snowfox2ne1 · 2015-03-17T14:04:45+00:00

I think you can spread the information to those who are willing to listen. You don't have to go out and tell your neighbors. But, the next time one of your friends starts trashing the subject, give them some resources to explain why they are misguided. Feminism has some valid points, pretty much every MRA realizes that, but they have gone off their rocker. Approaching rape as a 'any number is too high' argument, would be fine. Bringing up completely false 1 in 5 statistics, and 'teach men not to rape' campaigns, is where the problem lies. Feminism is closer to fascism than any other movement I can think of in recent history. They teach the 77 cents lie in universities, and they preach the 1 in 5 (sometimes 1 in 4) myth as gospel. Being a white male my opinion can't matter to them but yours might.

scanspeak · 2015-03-16T20:46:57+00:00

Congrats for having an enquiring, open mind. You've just swallowed the red pill.

As for why the media isn't reporting the truth - the media is controlled by advertisers and the primary consumers are women.

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