Do you support alternate expressions of masculinity? Why or why not?

wtknight · 2023-07-06T15:24:57+00:00

Yeah sure. I support them. Women just usually aren’t as attracted to alternative displays of masculinity, though.

Maractop · 2023-07-06T14:53:48+00:00

The majority of people whether they say it or not still expect you to fufill that traditional role. There is some wiggle room of course but if you step out of that too much you will be looked at differently. Look at how stay at home dads are percieved. The people who claim they dont like it are just against the certain parts that dont benefit them. They still want other parts to be upheld.

Its not the only way to be a man but you will be percieved as "real man" by doing some of those things. Why do you think people say phrases lilke just be a man and insult men when they exhibit traits that are sterotypically associated with women? Ive even seen someone say on here that complaining is a feminine trait. It makes no sense. And there are women who call men feminine or gay as an insult. Because no matter how much people claim to support stepping out the role they still view some of those traits as negative if they are held by a man.

And I dont resent it because it is what it is. I dont care if people go outside the boundaries because it has no effect on me. Its their life so they can do what they want.

Lift_and_Lurk · 2023-07-06T16:14:31+00:00

I want dudes to be comfortable being dudes however they feel. (In a healthy way obviously). If that means a dude wants to dance to Broadway musicals like no one is watching while I’m lifting at the gym: have at it bro- find your joy

lolthankstinder · 2023-07-06T15:04:57+00:00

I think a lot of resentment is directed at hypocrisy in feminism. When the weapon of wokeness turns their way, many women aren’t so eager to support feminism. This created choice feminism where women’s toxic expectations of masculinity are empowered as a preference. Any attempt to hold women accountable for this is met with “oh look over there at those men still doing bad things” or “hey have you tried being gay yet?”

No-Assistant-2592 · 2023-07-06T17:11:51+00:00

I support my kings! Be who you want to be.

I... honestly don't really know what's masculine or feminine anymore. I've seen guys do shit that would be considered feminine, but they made it their own thing.

DisasterHeavy9753 · 2023-07-06T14:59:25+00:00

Women are often the ones pushing traditional masculinity the hardest .

Most women refuse to date bisexual men even though they themselves may have had bisexual experiences.

Women are turned off by men who show emotional vulnerability while they simultaneously accuse men of having low emotional IQ.

Women sort of expect traditional masculine tropes in a relationship. He has to approach her and risk rejection. He is considered more expendable and expected to be the first one to confront a burglar or dangerous situation because he is the man. If there is something mechanical to fix or plumbing problem, he is expected to know how to do so and often looked down on if he has no aptitude for it. (While nobody would dare look down on a woman who can't cook or sew)

KayRay1994 · 2023-07-06T14:31:46+00:00

I still retain some aspects of traditional masculinity - ie. asserting myself, being more action oriented and playing a protector type role - but i’ve also gone against the grain some ways as well, im far more in touch with my emotions, more able to talk about my issues, im very diplomatic about my assertiveness and as someone with the desire/ability to be protective, i try not act until there is smelting to actually act upon

interestingly enough all of this feeds into each other - ie. talking about your issues and being vulnerable is totally fine as a man if you open up about it from the perspective of “i need to fix this and i need your help”, being more diplomatic about being assertive also keeps everyone at ease and being protective when there is no other choice only means mellowing out on the aggression

Additional-Run-6026 · 2023-07-06T15:37:18+00:00

ETA: Yes I know women can and do reinforce gender stereotypes and traditional masculinity but I’m asking men how they feel about it right now seeing as you guys are the ones doing it.

Do we really know who is doing it? And what are they doing?

Lovers691 · 2023-07-06T14:31:00+00:00

I don’t care what any other man does with his life

FuuraKafu · 2023-07-06T14:36:49+00:00

Of course I support people living their lives however they want. I generally like the idea of challenging rigid cultural norms too. But imo the core of the issue and frustration of men won't change anytime soon, and men aren't really even in control of changing it just by themselves. Due to the simple fact that women need to be impressed to find a man attractive.

So long as most men are into women, men will be under some pressure to be the "impresser" one way or another, to come across as cool. That's basically what masculinity is imo. Sure, specific things can be deconstructed and challenged, like idk, let men wear pink clothes, sure. But I don't really see the core of the issue changing anytime soon.

purplehathacker · 2023-07-06T17:25:23+00:00

To answer your questions, I do see traditional masculinity as the target I set for myself. It suits my personality and self identity to be the provider, protector, etc. And okay, I'll admit it, I like being in charge. The price of that is the burden of responsibility, which I'm willing to carry.

That said, not everyone else is. And increasingly, women are breaking out of traditional gender roles to bear more of what were traditional masculine roles. And I'm fine with that! I'm okay with alternative arrangements as long as they remain fair to both sides.

There are some women though who would ask for equality in household tasks, but still ask their partner to be the main provider. Their version of "have it all" seems to be to reap the advantages of both traditional and modern relationships. Not all women, for sure, but I've met many of this type.

The other commenter's point about societal pressure may have something to do it. As a "man" I'm expected to work a full time job, but as a "modern person" I'm expected to do equal housework and childcare.

BobtheAxieManager · 2023-07-06T15:26:53+00:00

Most guys would be better off embracing their masculinity. All of the negative consequences you list have nothing to do with it. The whole theory is just the result of feminists who think the answer for men is to behave more like women.

ThrowAwayHuman122333 · 2023-07-06T14:27:13+00:00

There aren't any. Masculinity is masculinity. It doesn't have a particular look.

Pilling_it · 2023-07-06T15:08:51+00:00

It's a matter of what is rewarded to be regarded as traditional, if we're looking in the context of success with the opposite sex. I don't really care for what should be, I'd rather work with what is, otherwise the conversation is often pointless.

I think it ranges from very nice or very unfair depending on who you are as a person. The only leeway you have as a man in what work would having a more egalitarian type of relationship, but there's still a lot of typically traditional things you have to do to make it work. So yeah, it sucks for those who don't like that.

Complex-Hat1875 · 2023-07-06T15:55:48+00:00

Elucidate alternate expression of masculinity because to my knowledge you're either masculine or not. If you're an effete man that's cool, I don't mind and if my son was that I'd say whatever; it's your life express yourself however you want, outside pressures be damned.

I however am wholly masculine in every sense of the word. I'm an assertive, confident, tall, muscular man covered in hair, with a deep voice.

I don't resent anyone who chooses to live their life alternative to the norm, don't do anything simply because some assholes you'll never meet expect you to - if you enjoy being more vulnerable or effeminate by all means. This goes for everything in life, you've got a short amount of time fuck what other people want/think.

keenenandraz · 2023-07-06T18:02:26+00:00

Do you see traditional masculinity as the only valid way to be a “man?” (Yes/no and why/why not).

I think it's a lot harder to be successful as a man if you don't fulfill those roles. Men who go against the grain, being more emotionally vulnerable or agreeable tend to be punished by society in numerous ways. But when it comes to finding a partner, since despite what even the most liberal feminist says, most of those chicks still are seen gravitating towards traditionally masculine men. Also, how many leaders, managers, SEOs do you see that aren't traditionally masculine? Those men rise to those positions because people respect them. Society as a whole doesn't seem to respect soft hetero men much at all.

If you resent the expectations of traditional masculinity, are you supportive of the men who go outside those boundaries? (Yes/no why/why not).

The expectations aren't a problem. It's only a problem to only support or respect men for being traditionally masculine, yet not expect the same from women, their counterparts. There are a lot of traditional expectations of men that aren't being reciprocated.

Epiphanic_Eros · 2023-07-06T18:06:05+00:00

The whole traditionalist idea of masculinity, which is really a weird derivation from the quasi-naturalist definitions like “alpha,” Is totally looney toons. The whole alpha thing is a weak shadow of genuine, confident masculinity.

Workaholiconew · 2023-07-06T18:36:29+00:00

For the most part? I dont give a damn about whatever other men are doing as long as they arent against me in any way.

And I am without a doubt only go out of my way to be "masculine" because of sexual returns. Not much else. No point really.

But one things assured. There is no real way to be sexually successful without be masculine. That is why we, men, are masculine... and help our friends to be masculine too...sexual success is everything for a man. Particularly a young man.

Social pressure doesnt work well with most men. They dont give a fuck about what others think... but sexual pressure? Not being able to fuck? Thats how society makes sure men arent destroying it.

Stunning_Thing4208 · 2023-07-06T19:20:40+00:00

I don't support anything that doesn't feel natural and feels pushed by ideology.

Do whatever makes you happy, but if you're acting in some way just because a bunch of people are telling you to, nah.

FirmWerewolf1216 · 2023-07-06T19:41:25+00:00

I honestly don’t care. To thine own self be true-William Shakespeare

sayittentimesfast · 2023-07-06T15:45:23+00:00

Women: We want neo-masculine men. Strong but not soft. Confident but not arrogant. Ambitious but not arrogant. A leader, but not manipulative. Driven, but not materialistic. Emotionally connected but not weak.

Also women: Despite what we say, we still want traditionally masculine guys for relationships, and need traditionally masculine guys for society to run, despite our claims both are toxic.

Basically, some confused "brave new feminist man" who can only exist in lab conditions.

I've come to the conclusion that women are essentially fucking nuts, but that's just me.

ratboi34 · 2023-07-06T14:52:31+00:00

You don't have to overdose and be masculine in every aspect of your life. I'm quiet masculine all over and I'm sure it helps to be that way, but it's about being a balanced person. I like boxing, I'm tall, I make sexist jokes and I am good at pretending to be confident. But sometimes I like being the soft boy that likes listening to Lana del Rey, while talking to some tinder girl about my covertly sexist interpretation of third wave feminism. Slay

Guilty-Instruction60 · 2023-07-06T16:33:02+00:00

No i don't think men should be more like women.

WingclippedBirdman · 2023-07-06T18:42:56+00:00

people here dont want to be traditionally masculine

Thats correct and its one of, if not the, biggest setbacks to their dating lives.

do you support men who dont conform?

No. I will not support you being a bitch. I will help you if you want to make a man of yourself but I'm not going to encourage you in any way to remain a weak pussy.

is trad the only way to go?

Yes it is. Its only extreme decadence and wealth that enables you to not be like this, anywhere there is hardship you find heightened societal roles to deal with that hardship. Essentially, traditional masculinity paved the way for you to be a bitch, and if that wealth ever dries up youre fucked. Women, even progressive feminist women, also want a traditional man to date so if you want to get laid theres your blueprint. The suicide rate is not imo a link to being masculine, id say its gone up because the masculine role model disappearing has left many wondering where to go and what to do.

gender is a construct

Its not, we know from literal newborns that there are different interests and behaviors almost immediately after birth. We know from Scandinavia that the more "equal" the society the more these inherent gender roles end up maximized. Turns out, women engineers are mostly a thing in poorer countries because its a surefire way of escaping the mass poverty around you, but when you dont have that pressure you see them go to nursing and teaching instead. Social expectations of the sexes are expected because they came to us naturally.

it should be a choice not an expectation

Thats precisely the problem, you cant expect anything from anyone anymore. Can i expect a stable marriage? No because divorce can be granted through no fault of your own. Can i expect men to stand up for someone being assaulted? Not anymore, so theres less social trust and more paranoia of danger.

Its a pretty simple fact, if you didnt expect a roller coaster to be safe you'd never get on one. If you didnt expect pilots to be competent you'd never be on a plane. Less expectation is always a bad thing because its less structure and far more uncertainty and the less certain we are of something the worse we are in general.

comment before telling me women are the problem

Theyre not. Its a good thing when they tell you outright to grow a pair and be a fucking man. Theyve got work to do on their own end (starting with those obesity rates) but if theyre doing one thing right its wanting men to man the fuck up.

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Purple_Cruncher_123 · 2023-07-06T15:29:51+00:00

Well, historically there's a template that works. And like other forms of tradition, we keep a lot of aspects even long after they are necessarily 'needed' - it becomes an engrained cultural preference. But it does shift over time. We're seeing a lot of that shift now, as the pressures to provide has become increasingly burdensome in modern economies, and the space for those conversations have been democratized to the extent that any common man with a Tik Tok app can make a video voicing their feelings on the matter and find validation.

As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't really matter what most other men do. But the more unconventional someone is, the less conventional too will their results typically be. As long as they are happy with that, what's it to me. And sometimes, unfortunately perhaps, the choice of being conventional or otherwise isn't really a choice at all.

I'm a 5'3" Asian male for example - I can try my darndest to play the traditional stoic, gruffy, masculine provider role, but it doesn't really jive with my physical reality (even if temperamentally, I would have liked to). So I have to adapt some elements of it by necessity. It's trade-offs and priorities.

No-Rough-7390 · 2023-07-06T17:43:45+00:00

We are so far from whatever traditional masculinity was that we cannot even really define it accurately anymore. All of the downsides and negatives you listed come down to us muddying the waters about “true masculinity” and leaving most men purposeless, confused, and apologetic for even being born a man. I don’t even mean this as if it’s being expressed outwardly, society gaslights men 24/7 to question themselves. That’s why things are as messed up as they are now.

I think most men, if left to do what they want to do, would be relatively selfish when it comes to their own happiness, goals, and accomplishments while making room for others (I.e. a woman) where it makes sense. Men process emotions far differently as well (instinct -> reason -> then emotion) which is why most of this push for men to be more vulnerable fucks them. It’s not how the machine works.

What also has not helped is genetic lag (I believe that’s the terminology) where the technology we have has so far out surpassed our own evolutionary progress that we are trying to make it all fit in real time. Men are deductive problem solvers and will often times listen to others if they think it will get them the optimal outcome. But when the majority of the messaging is actually the antithesis of what might actually work for them and it’s nonstop, you get where we are now.

Treacle-Flimsy · 2023-07-06T19:39:21+00:00

I'm one of those guys that look more feminine than masculine, so I definitely sympathise and cheer on those that try to express it somehow differently

With that being said, I don't really support those guys who are into furry/some other cringy stuff, because I find it somewhat repulsive

Ludens0 · 2023-07-06T20:36:06+00:00

You have defined "traditional" masculinity. I don't like that definition. But could you tell thr definition of a non-traditional masculinity?

AlmostKindaGreat · 2023-07-06T21:18:07+00:00

Do you see traditional masculinity as the only valid way to be a “man?” (Yes/no and why/why not).

No. I feel radical acceptance toward however anyone wants to be. I want everyone to feel like themselves and achieve as much happiness as possible while feeling like their fully realized selves.

If you resent the expectations of traditional masculinity...

I'm not sure if there was a question here, but I do resent the expectations to a degree. I don't think "society" expects or necessarily even encourages men to be the perfectly (traditionally) masculine man. I do think that most women have these expectations, specifically of men who want to be eligible sexual or romantic partners.

The disconnect of the messages in broader discourse that men don't need to be particularly masculine, in the traditional sense, and what women actually want is what has caused me resentment at times. I've learned to embrace this and being more of this type of man is integrated into my personality now, so I don't feel it much anymore. What actually ticks me off now is that people deny that the disconnect even exists.

are you supportive of the men who go outside those boundaries? (Yes/no why/why not).

Yes, of course. I have some close guy friends who don't fit this mold and I love being around them.

I don't really think about this topic except when it comes to attracting women. Men who don't display traditional masculine qualities will have many, many fewer romantic options, unless they fit perfectly into some niche, like sensitive pretty boy artist waif. For all the other guys, of course I don't want to crap on them for being themselves. They usually don't have success with women. If that's not important to them that's fine. If they ask me for advice I'll tell them what I think. Either way I hope they are perfectly happy.

TheOrangeGhost · 2023-07-07T00:39:11+00:00

True masculinity is about confidence, courage, strength, and humility. If your a cowardly wimp or an aggressive jerk your failing at being masculine. Remember masculinity isn't in opposition to femininity its in opposition to boyhood.

DzejSiDi · 2023-07-07T00:43:43+00:00

I know that "masculinity" is not just a one thing, but there are no "alternate expressions of masculinity", at least I don't know any. We have very masculine men, very non-masculine men and whole gradient of people in between.

For example this guy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m60zLmpboqc he's looking masculine and doing really masculine thing like lifting heavy plates to get bigger and stronger, yet his profession and overall body language are not very masculine.

Do you see traditional masculinity as the only valid way to be a “man?”

No, and I don't want even to start "what is a true man" discussion. This topic is too broad, too vague and too person-dependent. I prefer company of masculine men, but I don't care much if you're not one.

I won't write here about feminine men, that's a different topic.

resurrect_john_brown · 2023-07-07T03:36:16+00:00

I support people being their authentic selves, period. Especially men, who have a much more limited range of "acceptable" traits.

No_Ask_2241 · 2023-07-07T07:44:18+00:00

I don't particularly care what other guys wanna do with their masculinity. Wear skirts, nail polish, crop top, cat ears or whatever the hell else you want.

But for myself, I only do traditional forms of masculinity because that's what women are attracted to, by and large.

abaxeron · 2023-07-07T08:38:59+00:00

I mostly don't support but don't condemn either, with the exception of latest fashion on sobriety - which I do support.

Society has to operate on patterns the same way as computer hardware has to operate on connectors and interfaces.

As a person who had my fair share of experience with devices that had customizable terminals...

Connectors are better.

And I don't believe that traditional masculinity has anything to do with suicide. It's not traditionally hypermasculine men who are prone to suicide. And as society drifted away from seeing traditional masculinity as anything good at all, AT BEST, the situation with male suicide stayed the same. At worst, it became worse.

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SecondEldenLord · 2023-07-07T10:21:33+00:00

Nope, other forms of masculinity are weak.

Dr-Misanthropist · 2023-07-07T14:11:01+00:00

I disagree with the premise that traditional masculinity is behind suicide. The hadza people (the last hunter gatherer tribe today), for example, can’t fathom why people would want to kill themselves and see the first world as somewhat dystopian. They are extremely traditional, all the men hunt and kill.

Comfortable-Dare-307 · 2023-07-07T16:19:26+00:00

I don't adhere to traditional roles unless the woman wants to as well. In the case of my ex-wife, for example, she was a stay at home mom, and I was the breadwinner. It worked out fine until I became disinterested in sex, and she went elsewhere (I'm bisexual, more leaning toward men). As for finding a male partner, I would have no issue being a stay at home parent if he liked traditional gender roles. I don't want to be a breadwinner again. That was too stressful. I'd rather stay at home with my kids.

As for the other stereotypical masculine traits, no emotion, being providers, and protectors, l disagree that men must adhere to these. They should be able to decide if they want to be traditional or not.

Carloverguy20 · 2023-07-07T16:44:31+00:00

I do, because I'm a free thinker and don't need to conform to dumb social norms and ideology. I tend to reject most social and gender norms much, and I'm just living my life. The problems with this is that, society is not ready for a man that goes against the status quo of society, and it could be a bit lonely. We want to romanticize sensitive and easygoing men, but the harsh reality is that, they will face harsh criticisms and truths by everyone around them.

EugeneCezanne · 2023-07-13T02:36:42+00:00

I know I'm late to this party, but it's a good topic.

First, as a somewhat femme male with no real concern about masculinity as a concept, I of course support any man going about his manhood more or less however he wants. I don't think you and I, in particular, have any ground on which to debate that point.

What may be more interesting are the ways in which I have observed more traditionally masculine men here respond to the topic in the past. I believe that they believe 3 things:

1) That traditional masculinity is the only correct masculinity. They despair at the pussification of modern men. As this is ultimately a philosophical point, have no real argument except to personally disagree.
2) That traditional masculinity is the only viable dating strategy. That is, that no matter what women say, they all want that masculinity. This gets pretty complicated if you think about it. My own personal experience refutes it (to which some say that I am actually very masculine despite non-masculine aspects, which sounds like biased rationalization to me); there are some studies which could be interpreted as supporting it to some small degree; and there should be a lot of caveats, like that your social circle and socioeconomic background make huge differences in the viability of any sexual strategy.
3) That, though both desired and necessary, traditional masculinity is unfairly maligned. This is where they start talking about feminist hypocrisy and I have to say that "'toxic masculinity' doesn't mean that masculinity is toxic."

I'm not trying to straw man with the above, or claim that the same individuals hold all three views simultaneously. It's just what I encounter most often.

Title	Do you support alternate expressions of masculinity? Why or why not?
Author	FightMeCthullu
Upvotes	15
Comments	179
Date	July 6, 2023 2:25 PM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/14saqu9/do_you_support_alternate_expressions_of/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/do-you-support-alternate-expressions-of.1224539 https://theredarchive.com/post/1224539

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